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While there certainly are a lot children's fantasy adventures with children as the heroes, dating well back before RPGs, those adventures tend to have a lot less slaughter than the average D&D/PF game. I think that make a difference.
The thing with Iconics is that there's an entire thread devoted to which among them get devoured, impaled, blown up, trapped, drowned, etc. the most.
A child Iconic being subjected to some of the terrible body horror deaths that Valeros, etc. get subjected to might be a little off-putting.
Certainly the art orders could simply not request the child Iconic in various 'Monsters Revisited' death scenes, but that in itself might beg the question of whether the child Iconic was a suitable 'Iconic' if there's a built in limitation on how it can be used, compared to the other Iconics...
Even if it is something easily work-around-able, I can see Paizo not wanting to open that can of worms.
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The thing with Iconics is that there's an entire thread devoted to which among them get devoured, impaled, blown up, trapped, drowned, etc. the most.
A child Iconic being subjected to some of the terrible body horror deaths that Valeros, etc. get subjected to might be a little off-putting.
Certainly the art orders could simply not request the child Iconic in various 'Monsters Revisited' death scenes, but that in itself might beg the question of whether the child Iconic was a suitable 'Iconic' if there's a built in limitation on how it can be used, compared to the other Iconics...
Even if it is something easily work-around-able, I can see Paizo not wanting to open that can of worms.
To play devil's advocate, maybe images like some of the more graphic ones in that thread shouldn't be portrayed in Pathfinder's art at all? Is art like that needed to sell the game? The answer is clearly, "No." because such pieces are, as you said, typically limited to the Monsters Revisited and Monsters Unleashed line.
While I think our culture is definitely too squeamish when it comes to romance (and everything it entails), I also think we rely too much on violence to sell things. Maybe a young iconic could be a good internal reason to dial back on extreme violence and dial forward on more pieces of feel-good artwork. I mean, when was the last time we've seen any of the iconics embracing anyone? Or kissing? Such things may be minor displays of affection, but aren't those emotions just as important to the human experience? Shouldn't we include them if we're going to have successful, well-rounded characters?
The Pathfinder Comic certainly seems to think so.
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To play devil's advocate, maybe images like some of the more graphic ones in that thread shouldn't be portrayed in Pathfinder's art at all? [SNIP]
While I think our culture is definitely too squeamish when it comes to romance (and everything it entails), I also think we rely too much on violence to sell things.[SNIP]
Certainly some valid things to think about. I kind of like the various 'bad things happen to Iconics' pictures demonstrating various traps and spells and (most commonly) monsters, but we do place a higher priority on pictures that include 'action,' so that one is more likely to see an illustration of the Whirlwind Attack feat or the chain lightning spell than one of the Heighten Spell feat or mage armor spell (does anybody know if metamagic-ing a spell has a visual effect? I sure don't. Does the casting of (invisible once created) mage armor, or many other spells with no noted visible effects, such as locate object or owl's wisdom, create any visible effects? Also, a mystery, perhaps best left to the hands of the GM.).
A step between your own thoughts on images of non-action 'events' like romance (or other interactions), even some illustrations of not-so-action-y skill uses like Diplomacy and Heal and Handle Animal and Craft could show off some Iconics (or less Iconic NPCs) doing stuff other than get blown up / eaten / fighting / jumping / flying backwards through the air while backflipping with knives (Merisiel's favorite thing to be doing, apparently...). :)
I'm personally a fan of pictures that include multiple people doing stuff in the same picture (like on the cover of most APs). D&D/PF has always been a game about a *team* of people doing stuff, and I'd like to see more pictures of multiple people working together, perhaps with one setting up another, or blocking an attack coming at another, or casting a spell to buff/enhance another, etc. There's a ton of solo pictures, and this has never been a solo game. Some of the Eberron books and modules had some cool WAR-drawn pictures of entire parties of adventurers, and that, to me, feels more like what the game is about.
Not just multiple people having their own individual fights in the same general vicinity, but actual interactions and teamwork, would be a plus, for me.
While there certainly are a lot children's fantasy adventures with children as the heroes, dating well back before RPGs, those adventures tend to have a lot less slaughter than the average D&D/PF game. I think that make a difference.The thing with Iconics is that there's an entire thread devoted to which among them get devoured, impaled, blown up, trapped, drowned, etc. the most.
A child Iconic being subjected to some of the terrible body horror deaths that Valeros, etc. get subjected to might be a little off-putting.
Certainly the art orders could simply not request the child Iconic in various 'Monsters Revisited' death scenes, but that in itself might beg the question of whether the child Iconic was a suitable 'Iconic' if there's a built in limitation on how it can be used, compared to the other Iconics...
Even if it is something easily work-around-able, I can see Paizo not wanting to open that can of worms.
I won't lie. I rarely delve into a lot of the board and had never seen those threads, so that is a valid concern I hadn't thought of. I'm certainly not advocating active harm to a child.
But I don't think much would change. I've not read through every AP, but those I have skimmed don't shy away from putting children in danger.
Not sure if this was part of the AP or added by our GM, but there was also a cult kidnapping children and turning them into harpies.
There are already kids going through similar fates to the iconics, so the idea that giving one child iconic the ability to fight back is advocating endangerment doesn't make sense to me.
I could be wrong. It could be an awful idea. *shrug*
Kingmaker
The first was written in, the second I slightly modified -
The thing with Iconics is that there's an entire thread devoted to which among them get devoured, impaled, blown up, trapped, drowned, etc. the most.
A child Iconic being subjected to some of the terrible body horror deaths that Valeros, etc. get subjected to might be a little off-putting.
Certainly the art orders could simply not request the child Iconic in various 'Monsters Revisited' death scenes, but that in itself might beg the question of whether the child Iconic was a suitable 'Iconic' if there's a built in limitation on how it can be used, compared to the other Iconics...
Even if it is something easily work-around-able, I can see Paizo not wanting to open that can of worms.
To play devil's advocate, maybe images like some of the more graphic ones in that thread shouldn't be portrayed in Pathfinder's art at all? Is art like that needed to sell the game? The answer is clearly, "No." because such pieces are, as you said, typically limited to the Monsters Revisited and Monsters Unleashed line.
While I think our culture is definitely too squeamish when it comes to romance (and everything it entails), I also think we rely too much on violence to sell things. Maybe a young iconic could be a good internal reason to dial back on extreme violence and dial forward on more pieces of feel-good artwork. I mean, when was the last time we've seen any of the iconics embracing anyone? Or kissing? Such things may be minor displays of affection, but aren't those emotions just as important to the human experience? Shouldn't we include them if we're going to have successful, well-rounded characters?
The Pathfinder Comic certainly seems to think so.
I guess I'll be the odd man out. I like the current balance of art, and disagree with the cultural implications here. Granted 99% of that is because I personally am not interested in romance or anything connected to it, while I find heroes fighting monsters (or vice versa, or most any other rearrangement of the component parts) cool and far more interesting to look at.
Would I complain if the extent of the violence got cut down, though? Not at all, as I don't much care for blood and gore. But then again, Pathfinder art isn't incredibly gory. There's some blood splashes from time to time, yeah; the art of Sajan slashing a Troll in Kingmaker #4 comes immediately to mind. But their artists aren't commissioned for disembowelments, smashed skulls, severed limbs, or anything equally traumatic, or at least not often enough that I've caught sight of it anywhere. (Carrion Crown GMs, if there's any place it'd be I imagine it'd be there, care to input?) So there really isn't a lot of that to be cut down on in the first place.
I kind of like the art for the monsters revisited series, which is specifically focused on the monsters getting the upper-hand on the heroes.
Correct me if I am wrong, as its been awhile since I have looked at Ultimate Campaign, but rules wise aren't children only allowed to take NPC classes? that right there would make using a kid character tough for a new class.
Hence the suggestion that a theoretical child iconic would be very technically within the lowest ranges of adulthood - something like 15 for humans, or the appropriate other-racial equivalent. Old enough to no longer technically be covered by the Child Character ruling of "only NPC classes" (a ruling I personally ignore anyway) but much younger than any of the revealed iconics that already exist, and still within the cultural bracket we currently consider childhood.
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Hence the suggestion that a theoretical child iconic would be very technically within the lowest ranges of adulthood - something like 15 for humans, or the appropriate other-racial equivalent. Old enough to no longer technically be covered by the Child Character ruling of "only NPC classes" (a ruling I personally ignore anyway) but much younger than any of the revealed iconics that already exist, and still within the cultural bracket we currently consider childhood.
Not gonna lie, it would be nice if we had an Iconic that ignored that rule anyway. I've never liked it or enforced it. Seemed silly to cite Harry Potter (an arcanist), Arya Stark (a rogue), and Aang (a qinggong monk) in one paragraph and then say, "NPC classes only!" in the next.
Part of playing a PC is breaking the normal limitations of reality. So why shouldn't young characters get to do that too?
Agreed =)
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Now that's solid work...and that facial expression...
That's pretty awesome :)
:D I'd say thanks, but that's all the artists at work there. :)
All of these artists (and more still) have been a real delight to work with and I wholeheartedly recommend them if you're looking for character artwork. :)
I'm not particularly fond of the child iconic idea. It's not a trope I'm at all fond of.
And while I'd like to see some iconics outside of the core seven races, ain't gonna happen, sadly.
But I wouldn't have a problem with there being some more male-fanservice iconics. Not my bag, but I have no problem with those who are interested getting some fair play.
Now, what I would like is if not a single one of the new iconics was human. They've got six new classes and seven races to choose from, so at the very least, one race is getting left out- I suspect half-orc, because they always get the short end of the stick. But it would be nice if there was one of each race except human.
A pipe dream, maybe.
Isnt the magus plenty "Bishounen"? Sure hes evil but evil can be pretty too. With a little makeup.
Also I hope they dont dump a spellcaster class on the Halflin/Gnome, i wanan see a psyblade Gnome!
I'm not particularly fond of the child iconic idea. It's not a trope I'm at all fond of.
And while I'd like to see some iconics outside of the core seven races, ain't gonna happen, sadly.
But I wouldn't have a problem with there being some more male-fanservice iconics. Not my bag, but I have no problem with those who are interested getting some fair play.
Now, what I would like is if not a single one of the new iconics was human. They've got six new classes and seven races to choose from, so at the very least, one race is getting left out- I suspect half-orc, because they always get the short end of the stick. But it would be nice if there was one of each race except human.
A pipe dream, maybe.
That would be nice. Far too many of them are human. All of these being non-human would barely bring non-human iconics all together up to the human number. At least by my count there are two of each race, except half-elves have 3 and humans have a lot.
It would also be nice to see some different ethnicities for the non-humans. Humans have a broad range. The other races not so much, partly because there are only a couple examples of each.
Unfortunately, in addition to stating that no iconics will be non-core races, the devs have also bluntly stated that humans will remain the most common among the iconics.
I predict we'll get at least two new humans and an elf and/or half-elf. The rest are up in the air, though if I had to guess I'd presume Half-Orc and Gnome would be the ones to get skipped. Sad to say but that's pretty par for the course.
I'm aware. It changes my prediction not at all. If we get less than two new human iconics with OA I will be extremely surprised.
Now, what I would like is if not a single one of the new iconics was human. They've got six new classes and seven races to choose from, so at the very least, one race is getting left out- I suspect half-orc, because they always get the short end of the stick. But it would be nice if there was one of each race except human.
A pipe dream, maybe.
That would be nice. Far too many of them are human. All of these being non-human would barely bring non-human iconics all together up to the human number. At least by my count there are two of each race, except half-elves have 3 and humans have a lot.
It would also be nice to see some different ethnicities for the non-humans. Humans have a broad range. The other races not so much, partly because there are only a couple examples of each.
How do the human iconics break down by Golarion ethnicity?
There are many well-known defined Golarion human ethnicities but the non-human core races have only a few fairly obscure non fantasy race default ethnicities (black elves, egyptian dwarves, etc.) that I am aware of.
One of my favorite pc's is a half-orc fighter who's human half is tian-min. So I think they could add a little diversity by having the next half orc and half elf iconics be half tian or half garundi or half keleshite or whatever. Having a jungle elf or pahmet dwarf iconic wouldn't be a terrible idea, either.
1) Young Iconics: until only a few centuries ago, kids getting in danger was an everyday occurrence and often a necessity.
2) General Iconics: 2 half orc, both divine casters; 2 halfling, both caster; 2 Gnomes, both caster, etc.
Agreeing with Gorbacz, and not only in the U.S.
Also, adults playing childs, possibly of the other gender, can get really awkward really fast.
And if you ask me, i would be very glad when Golarion would stay Golarion and all of that anime/manga stuff would be taking place somewhere else or in homegames. This is a genderneutral statement. I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts. (On a sidenote, most of the older 10+ years ago anime and manga stuff had way better quality if you ask me. I´m looking at you, Record of Lodoss War. Or even something called Urotsukidoji, which was ridiculous, but honestly so.)
Agreeing with Gorbacz, and not only in the U.S.
Also, adults playing childs, possibly of the other gender, can get really awkward really fast.And if you ask me, i would be very glad when Golarion would stay Golarion and all of that anime/manga stuff would be taking place somewhere else or in homegames. This is a genderneutral statement. I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts. (On a sidenote, most of the older 10+ years ago anime and manga stuff had way better quality if you ask me. I´m looking at you, Record of Lodoss War. Or even something called Urotsukidoji, which was ridiculous, but honestly so.)
Yeah, those dumb giant sword animes... like Pathfinder.
You people need to let go of your hatred. D&D hasn't accurately portrayed medieval sword & sorcerery for ages.
Agreeing with Gorbacz, and not only in the U.S.
Also, adults playing childs, possibly of the other gender, can get really awkward really fast.And if you ask me, i would be very glad when Golarion would stay Golarion and all of that anime/manga stuff would be taking place somewhere else or in homegames. This is a genderneutral statement. I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts. (On a sidenote, most of the older 10+ years ago anime and manga stuff had way better quality if you ask me. I´m looking at you, Record of Lodoss War. Or even something called Urotsukidoji, which was ridiculous, but honestly so.)
Yeah, those dumb giant sword animes... like Pathfinder.
You people need to let go of your hatred. D&D hasn't accurately portrayed medieval sword & sorcerery for ages.
There is no hatred and Amiri is well within the boundaries, far away from what i was talking about.
Medieval sword & sworcery is not really my thing either and Golarion is far too diverse for that anyway.That doesn´t mean that the unfortunate sides of often misunderstood japanese hentai culture and their international rip-offs need to set foot into Pathfinder.
Agreeing with Gorbacz, and not only in the U.S.
Also, adults playing childs, possibly of the other gender, can get really awkward really fast.And if you ask me, i would be very glad when Golarion would stay Golarion and all of that anime/manga stuff would be taking place somewhere else or in homegames. This is a genderneutral statement. I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts. (On a sidenote, most of the older 10+ years ago anime and manga stuff had way better quality if you ask me. I´m looking at you, Record of Lodoss War. Or even something called Urotsukidoji, which was ridiculous, but honestly so.)
Yeah, those dumb giant sword animes... like Pathfinder.
You people need to let go of your hatred. D&D hasn't accurately portrayed medieval sword & sorcerery for ages.
There is no hatred and Amiri is well within the boundaries, far away from what i was talking about.
Medieval sword & sworcery is not really my thing either and Golarion is far too diverse for that anyway.
That doesn´t mean that the unfortunate sides of often misunderstood japanese hentai culture and their international rip-offs need to set foot into Pathfinder.
"japanese hentai culture"
I can't even go on.
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I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts.
Giant swords hitting people with a little girl (or boy) with impossible anatomies is a wonderful image though.
I need no oversized katana swinging underage girls with impossible anatomies, nor their male counterparts.Giant swords hitting people with a little girl (or boy) with impossible anatomies is a wonderful image though.
I agree, even if it's disturbing.
I don't know about "viciously tentacle-violated", since that doesn't come up my games often, but things like Harry Potter and the Hunger Games have definitely shown the US won't tolerate children in danger in their entertainment."Kids in danger (of being viciously tentacle-violated and then chewed out)" is a turbo red button panic trigger in the U.S. - I wouldn't count of those any time soon.1) Young Iconics: until only a few centuries ago, kids getting in danger was an everyday occurrence and often a necessity.
A Song Of Ice And Fire? (I admit the "kids in dangers" is ridiculous)
I don't know about "viciously tentacle-violated", since that doesn't come up my games often, but things like Harry Potter and the Hunger Games have definitely shown the US won't tolerate children in danger in their entertainment."Kids in danger (of being viciously tentacle-violated and then chewed out)" is a turbo red button panic trigger in the U.S. - I wouldn't count of those any time soon.1) Young Iconics: until only a few centuries ago, kids getting in danger was an everyday occurrence and often a necessity.
A Song Of Ice And Fire? (I admit the "kids in dangers" is ridiculous)
The USA are getting shot from all sides conserning morality these days.
the TV adaptation of ASoIaF toned a lot of things down (and made other things squickier).
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So, to return to one of the espoused topics of this thread, we now have sketches of two of the Occult Adventures Iconics, the first of which is the Occultist, and is apparently a bit overweight/hefty, and the second, the Psychic, is a Vudrani woman.
We also have a statement by Erik Mona on Know Direction that the spiritualist is going to be 'non-traditional' looking in some way. I speculate a middle-aged or older woman, but have that's incorrect. He also confirmed that the Occultist being heavier wasn't just an optical illusion in the picture above, for the record.
So...at least some speculation on this thread (there being a heavier Iconic) was correct. Thought people here should get a heads up.
We also have a statement by Erik Mona on Know Direction that the spiritualist is going to be 'non-traditional' looking in some way. I speculate a middle-aged or older woman, but have that's incorrect.
There was also, IIRC, a comment in the podcast about one of the pictures above Brandon Hodge's shoulder (a photograph) where Brandon made some kind of comment referring to the Spiritualist that was "too obscure" a reference to give anything away or somesuch, as well as the fact that someone in the forum threads guessed the secret behind the Spiritualist almost precisely.
I'm thinking that the artwork may have less to do with the spiritualist looking non-traditional, and more to do with how it and its connected phantom might appear.
So, to return to one of the espoused topics of this thread, we now have sketches of two of the Occult Adventures Iconics, the first of which is the Occultist, and is apparently a bit overweight/hefty, and the second, the Psychic, is a Vudrani woman.
We also have a statement by Erik Mona on Know Direction that the spiritualist is going to be 'non-traditional' looking in some way. I speculate a middle-aged or older woman, but have that's incorrect. He also confirmed that the Occultist being heavier wasn't just an optical illusion in the picture above, for the record.
So...at least some speculation on this thread (there being a heavier Iconic) was correct. Thought people here should get a heads up.
Is the Vudrani iconic a double amputee? I think the spiritualist is going to be a ghost. There was a tiny hint on Know Direction from Brandon Hodges that made me think so.
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Is the Vudrani iconic a double amputee?
Uh...no? She has arms and legs, she's just hovering (presumably via her vast psychic power).
I think the spiritualist is going to be a ghost. There was a tiny hint on Know Direction from Brandon Hodges that made me think so.
That'd be seriously weird and meta, given they have what amounts to a ghost companion...so I'd bet against it.
Is the Vudrani iconic a double amputee?Uh...no? She has arms and legs, she's just hovering (presumably via her vast psychic power).
I think the spiritualist is going to be a ghost. There was a tiny hint on Know Direction from Brandon Hodges that made me think so.That'd be seriously weird and meta, given they have what amounts to a ghost companion...so I'd bet against it.
Ah, now I see her feet. They looked like sashes to me. Just for the record, I think a double amputee iconic would be awesome.
Ah, now I see her feet. They looked like sashes to me. Just for the record, I think a double amputee iconic would be awesome.Sounds cool to me!
They'd probably need a companion of some sort to serve as a mount to be viable at low levels, though.
Aside for Young Iconic, Handicapped Iconic are also kinda missing, well, the game does lack rules for making/playing Handicapped Badass (that don't neccessitate a lot of magic items and feats taxes/chains, and even then...).
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Aside for Young Iconic, Handicapped Iconic are also kinda missing, well, the game does lack rules for making/playing Handicapped Badass (that don't neccessitate a lot of magic items and feats taxes/chains, and even then...).
That depends on how you define 'handicapped', I mean Alahazra is blind...
Just a heads up, people aren't asking for sexy men. Rugged, bad ass men can be sexy too. What people are asking for are less rugged, more feminine men that are...
Nah...rugged men are far more sexy than swishy little teenage twinks:P
What would be nice to see is a perfectly average/"normal" (neither "butch beyond measure" or a "teenage fem/twink" that was also openly homosexual.THAT would be a score ;)
Aside for Young Iconic, Handicapped Iconic are also kinda missing, well, the game does lack rules for making/playing Handicapped Badass (that don't neccessitate a lot of magic items and feats taxes/chains, and even then...).That depends on how you define 'handicapped', I mean Alahazra is blind...
Clouded Vision isn't total blindness, at least mechanically... Story And Gameplay Segregation...
Just a heads up, people aren't asking for sexy men. Rugged, bad ass men can be sexy too. What people are asking for are less rugged, more feminine men that are...Nah...rugged men are far more sexy than swishy little teenage twinks:P
What would be nice to see is a perfectly average/"normal" (neither "butch beyond measure" or a "teenage fem/twink" that was also openly homosexual.
THAT would be a score ;)
A homosexual whose entire character is not a joke? How silly.
'Young' Human male that look young.
Old female that look the part.
For the person on this thread who said the spiritualist will be a Gothic Lolita spiritualist, I hope you will be satisfied with an emo gnome girl instead.
We 100% sure it's a gnome? hard to really make out.
I'm pretty sure it's a gnome. She's wearing a hat smiler to Balazaar, and we know gnomes like hats. plus I feel WAR tends to make halflings with a slighter larger proportioned head, hands, and feet, her porportions seem fine. and finally I believe her hair is navy blue, not a color seen in halflings.
That's just my evidence. plus the fact that gnomes tend to stick to a vibrant set of colors and halflings tend to stick to basic non-vibrant colors.
but if it turns out she is actually a halfling, "I owe you a coke."