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So what Archetypes from the advanced class guide are basically strait upgrades from the base classes?
Which ones should you always take no matter what?
Primal Companion Hunter comes to mind for me right off the bat.
Evolutions are definitely better than Animal Focus.
Just as a side note: Primal Companion is more multiclass friendly than the Summoners Eidolon considering that there are feats to augment an animal companion, while hardly any for the eidolon.
Mammoth rider seems like it would be fun.
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Fated Champion > Vanilla Skald.
Daring Champion Cavalier > Swashbuckler.
I'd dare say the two Fighter Archetypes are also a must.
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The Vanguard Slayer archetype is really good, with a version of Tactician that is just straight up better than what the Cavalier gets, party buffing, big initiative boosts, and the ability to act in the surprise round always, in exchange for a couple skill boosters and Slayer Talents. I think it's pretty much strictly better in a lot of situations.
Daring Champion is pretty much the non-mounted Cavalier archetype, and may be even better at buckling swash than the Swashbuckler.
I'm going to have a hard time thinking of Wizard builds I want to play that aren't using the Exploiter archetype. Void school wizards maybe?
You already mentioned Primal Hunter....
And the Fated Champion is basically Skald+.
To be honest, there were more archetypes that I was severely disappointed in, like the Feral Hunter (strictly weaker than the core Hunter on numerous fronts), the White Mage (not bad, but not really good either), and the nearly worthless Blade Adept, whose flavor and mechanics don't really play nice.
I'd dare say the two Fighter Archetypes are also a must.
With both of those you get a fighter that might actually scale well into higher levels.
Daring Champion Cavalier > Swashbuckler.
I'd dare say the two Fighter Archetypes are also a must.
<3
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Fated Champion > Vanilla Skald.
Daring Champion Cavalier > Swashbuckler.
I'd dare say the two Fighter Archetypes are also a must.
Oh yeah, Mutation Warrior is a big upgrade on the core Fighter. I was a big fan of the fact that the two archetypes stack with each other, so I can mutate my body and my fighting style.
Blade Adept is for Prestige Classes plz.
Also, there's the Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor archetype which is also almost better than the Slayer or the Inquisitor!
Doted
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Blade Adept is for Prestige Classes plz.
But since you'd stop advancing your exploits and your blade by prestiging...
Unless you meant it should have been a prestige class not an archetype, in which case I agree.
It's been said that the blades scales off caster level in that archetype which is why people have been calling it a pre EK class.
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Ummm...
Sentient Sword (Su): At 3rd level, the blade adept’s
bonded sword becomes a powerful, sentient black blade.
The blade advances as a black blade (Ultimate Magic 47) using
the blade adept’s class level in place of the magus’s class
level and points from her arcane reservoir in place of the
magus’s arcane pool. A blade adept with this class feature
cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another
class. This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at
3rd level
EDIT: D'oh! There it is:
"Eldritch Blade: A blade adept with this exploit uses her
caster level instead of her class level for the purpose of
advancing her bonded sword’s powers."
I guess that does make for a pretty solid Eldritch Knight.
Sacred Fist seems better than Warpriest.
Unless, you know, you want to use a weapon that isn't your fist.
Daring Champion is more attractive than Swashbuckler or Cavalier to me.
Them getting precise strike deed is the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this deed will be errata'd off their list.
Bolt Ace is probably going to be universally accepted while Gunslingers are often banned due to thematic concerns.
Love this archetype! I'm crossing my fingers that we'll get a stone slinger archetype for slings someday, too.
The Slayer archetype for Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer?) trades limited use per day judgements for unlimited and faster scaling bonus to hit and damage from level one. I'd go for that over a baseline any day.
Personally, I agree with you. I'd trade uses per day for at will any day. But that's my personal preference. Judgment, as it stands, is much more versatile than studied target and generally speaking, feels like a much more "divine" ability. I don't think sanctified slayer will invalidate the base inquisitor, but I do agree that it will be a popular choice.
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Oh yeah, Mutation Warrior is a big upgrade on the core Fighter. I was a big fan of the fact that the two archetypes stack with each other, so I can mutate my body and my fighting style.Fated Champion > Vanilla Skald.
Daring Champion Cavalier > Swashbuckler.
I'd dare say the two Fighter Archetypes are also a must.
Martial Master also stacks with Lore Warden, which makes for an amazing combo.
That said, loosing Weapon Training is actually a big deal for the fighter. Each loss is, on average, a 5% less chance to hit with your favored weapon types, plus less damage. For anyone worried about the slayer outdamaging the fighter, taking Martial Master does NOT help. (Especially because it drops the fighter's kickass capstone.)
Arcanist with the Blade Adept archetype basically makes the Eldritch Knight an even more viable Prestige Class. What, with the arcanist being able to grab the Magus's spellstrike ability as an arcana and all?
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Primalist for the Bloodrager yet. Being a Qingong-style "Swap out whatever you want" archetype makes it very powerful.
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I still think the problem is with the Swashbuckler rather than the Daring Champion.Quote:
Daring Champion is more attractive than Swashbuckler or Cavalier to me.
Them getting precise strike deed is the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this deed will be errata'd off their list.
I agree with this. The Cavalier is giving up a full progression AnC, one of the greatest force multipliers in the game, and should receive something equivalent. Even stacking precise strike and challenge the Cavalier isn't touching what an Order of the Sword core Cav can do with Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge. You're sacrificing action economy, damage, battlefield control, and weapon quality and should get something equivalent.
The fact that the Swashbuckler isn't as good with his own schtick is on the Swashbuckler, not the Daring Champion.
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Them getting precise strike deed is the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this deed will be errata'd off their list.
Making Daring Champions bad doesn't suddenly make the Swashbuckler good though. I'm not seeing this as a meaningful solution to anything (other than making the Daring Champion a bad archetype).
Getting Precise Strike and Challenge frankly looks a lot scarier than it actually is, since in the end one handed weapon is still a really weak fighting style in terms of damage output. The vast majority of the damage (if not all of it) is simply playing catchup against everything else.
Love this archetype! I'm crossing my fingers that we'll get a stone slinger archetype for slings someday, too.
I want to love Bolt Ace but it loses a ton of stuff over default and has to pay to get a lot of it back. And I don't like there's no way to make it work with anything other than a light or hand crossbow. Or that it replaces so many features you can't really add much in the way of other archetypes to it (I'd love to play a mysterious or siege bolt ace for fluff reasons).
That said, loosing Weapon Training is actually a big deal for the fighter. Each loss is, on average, a 5% less chance to hit with your favored weapon types, plus less damage. For anyone worried about the slayer outdamaging the fighter, taking Martial Master does NOT help. (Especially because it drops the fighter's kickass capstone.)
This is true, but at the same time, pumping out raw damage was never really the Fighter's weak point in the first place, so I don't consider it a huge loss.
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I'm always impressed by the fact that when asked about what class/subclass/archetype... is better people nearly always answer by better = more powerful especially in combat, with some kind of "finding the best combo/trade-of".
In our french club, we would tend to answer in the line of better = more fun to play -> which strangely most of the time means weaker but with more potential to create unique or funny situations that we will still talk about 20 years after (yes I started playing in 78).
So I have a hard time entering debates on what combo could be the most damage oriented / high possibility to happen. We would usually select our characters to reach nearly the opposite (not totally, we are not looking to bring chaos in the game) : average combat value in general but high possibility of really fun stuff (which doesn't at all means high damage) in specific circumstances.
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How did I miss Bolt Ace?!?! It's literally the "Make a Gunslinger who uses crossbows and you've solved 90% of the GS complaints" solution that gets brought up all the time. I love it!
It lets the Gunslinger chassis into pretty much any campaign regardless of setting and allows you to play a crossbow-wielding character who isn't gimped right out of the gate.
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allows you to play a crossbow-wielding character who isn't gimped right out of the gate.
But water balloons...
I'm always impressed by the fact that when asked about what class/subclass/archetype... is better people nearly always answer by better = more powerful especially in combat, with some kind of "finding the best combo/trade-of".
In our french club, we would tend to answer in the line of better = more fun to play -> which strangely most of the time means weaker but with more potential to create unique or funny situations that we will still talk about 20 years after (yes I started playing in 78).
So I have a hard time entering debates on what combo could be the most damage oriented / high possibility to happen. We would usually select our characters to reach nearly the opposite (not totally, we are not looking to bring chaos in the game) : average combat value in general but high possibility of really fun stuff (which doesn't at all means high damage) in specific circumstances.
But a lot of these archetypes replace class features that have nothing to do with roleplaying or very little to do with it.
Example: Fated Champion Skald replaces the +4 save bonus to sonic effects with extra initiative, makes spell kenning favor divination spell effects, and replaces Dirge of Doom with a group anti-fear buff.
Both the original abilities and the new abilities have the same potential for fun, while the Fated Champion's abilities are quite a bit stronger.
The Mastermind archetype for the Investigator is the same way. It's mechanics actually make it better at being an investigator (Can use inspiration on more social skills) while not really trading away anything.
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I'm always impressed by the fact that when asked about what class/subclass/archetype... is better people nearly always answer by better = more powerful especially in combat, with some kind of "finding the best combo/trade-of".
In our french club, we would tend to answer in the line of better = more fun to play -> which strangely most of the time means weaker but with more potential to create unique or funny situations that we will still talk about 20 years after (yes I started playing in 78).
So I have a hard time entering debates on what combo could be the most damage oriented / high possibility to happen. We would usually select our characters to reach nearly the opposite (not totally, we are not looking to bring chaos in the game) : average combat value in general but high possibility of really fun stuff (which doesn't at all means high damage) in specific circumstances.
But a lot of these archetypes replace class features that have nothing to do with roleplaying or very little to do with it.
Example: Fated Champion Skald replaces the +4 save bonus to sonic effects with extra initiative, makes spell kenning favor divination spell effects, and replaces Dirge of Doom with a group anti-fear buff.
Both the original abilities and the new abilities have the same potential for fun, while the Fated Champion's abilities are quite a bit stronger.
The Mastermind archetype for the Investigator is the same way. It's mechanics actually make it better at being an investigator (Can use inspiration on more social skills) while not really trading away anything.
Yeah, "sucking at combat" =/= "better for roleplay". Frankly, I've always found immersive roleplay to be more easily accomplished when the party's average competency is higher since we're able to progress the story more smoothly and we don't have awkward moments where the Rogue gets arrested for the 30th time because he can't make a stealth check or the dashing swashbuckler gets gutted by kobolds because he can't hit anything.
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Martial Master also stacks with Lore Warden, which makes for an amazing combo.
That said, loosing Weapon Training is actually a big deal for the fighter. Each loss is, on average, a 5% less chance to hit with your favored weapon types, plus less damage. For anyone worried about the slayer outdamaging the fighter, taking Martial Master does NOT help. (Especially because it drops the fighter's kickass capstone.)
Doesn't hurt the Lore Warden that much, consider their 19th level feature that grants them one confirmed crit per round. You probably will use it to confirm one of the higher risk iterative attacks.
It's not really a 5% less chance to hit, though. Extra feats should give you the tools you need to get that to-hit back in spades (note, this is talking for a Lore Warden).
Arena combat? Go for Dazzling Display, Awe-Inspiring Smash and Dramatic/Savage Display.
Inquisitor or similar class near you? Go for Teamwork feats that grant you attack and damage bonus! Precise Strike alone is 3.5 damage, which is basically all of Weapon Training's damage.
Got disarmed and your weapon training would be a waste? Go for a quick Improved Unarmed Strike training or go for a quick Catch Off-Guard!
Caught in darkness? Blind-fight, Moonlight Stalker got your back, that's 1/2 Weapon Training.
Need to deliver a quietus against a huge enemy? Go for Death or Glory for +4 attack and damage (scaling with BAB to boot!) Combine with Vital Strike feats for effect.
Fighting Demons? Demon Hunter got your back.
Alone? Desperate Battler counts for one level of Weapon Training.
Enemy has a high dodge rating? Anticipate Dodge! That's +2 attack.
I can keep going like this all day! Anyway, Weapon Training isn't that hot in my eyes because you can easily replace it through feats and the Lore Warden has that sweet 19th level class feature. Sucks losing the x+1 critical multiplier though.
Extra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.
Extra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.
Not really.
Extra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.Not really.
IMHO Martial flexibility > armor training and Mutagen > Weapon Training.
They just flipped what you traded. You don't need weapon training and mutagens to hit things.
Wouldn't a Blade Adept Arcanist still need to dip into something for martial weapon proficiency? Or is it still just that good even considering that?
Yeah, he'd either need to dip into a class with martial weapon proficiency or take the feat. Its really the free spellstrike that makes the archetype shine. Plus they can take arcane accuracy (the magus arcana) and spend their arcane reservoir points as arcane points. But because the arcanist doesn't lose consume spells and can still take the consume magic item exploit, they (unlike the magus) can use arcane accuracy all day with the only downside being the consumption of spell slots or magic item charges.
Because fun cannot be defined, and outside the numbers, everything else is mutable. You never actually have to use any of Paizos fluff. For example, I know games where firearms don't exist, but they still used gunslingers by just refluffing firearms to arbalests, but using the exact same rules. If one class invalidates another using the exact same ruleset/playstyle, all the fluff in the world doesnt matter, why would you ever take the worse one when you can just play the same character with better mechanics.I'm always impressed by the fact that when asked about what class/subclass/archetype... is better people nearly always answer by better = more powerful especially in combat, with some kind of "finding the best combo/trade-of".
In our french club, we would tend to answer in the line of better = more fun to play -> which strangely most of the time means weaker but with more potential to create unique or funny situations that we will still talk about 20 years after (yes I started playing in 78).
So I have a hard time entering debates on what combo could be the most damage oriented / high possibility to happen. We would usually select our characters to reach nearly the opposite (not totally, we are not looking to bring chaos in the game) : average combat value in general but high possibility of really fun stuff (which doesn't at all means high damage) in specific circumstances.
Yeah, fun is just way too personal/subjective for there to ever be much of a conversation about it. There's not much to say about whether or not an archetype will be fun to play beyond "I think it would be fun" or "I don't think it would be fun."
Everyone knows the most fun class is the Factotum!
See why we can't have a discussion about this?
So since we can't decide what's "fun" (though really if having "X class name on my sheet" is your "fun", have you tried say being a Slayer but writing Rogue?) we should probably discuss how well classes match their descriptions, or how well they compare to similar classes.
Because my Gravewalker Witch answers to Necromancer of Nethys. And my Oracle is the god of half-elves (anyone who disagrees with that is quickly proven wrong). Because that's what they are capable of, not what their class is.
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Everyone knows the most fun class is the Factotum!
See why we can't have a discussion about this?
Cause it is really hard to dispute a fact?
On the Brawler - vanilla or Archetyped, though?
Extra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.Not really.IMHO Martial flexibility > armor training and Mutagen > Weapon Training.
They just flipped what you traded. You don't need weapon training and mutagens to hit things.
unless your GM is nice and limits you to one encounter per day or always allows you time to brew a new mutagen between encounters, the mutagen archtype is not as effective as the dervish, lore warden, two handed fighter, mobile fighter, archer, two weapon fighter, brawler archtypes
unless your GM is nice and limits you to one encounter per day, mutagen archtype is flat out inferior to the dervish, lore warden, two handed fighter, mobile fighter, archer, two weapon fighter, brawler archtypesExtra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.Not really.IMHO Martial flexibility > armor training and Mutagen > Weapon Training.
They just flipped what you traded. You don't need weapon training and mutagens to hit things.
In class method of flight says hell no it isn't. And last time I checked, most encounters weren't huge amounts of time apart. At 10th level, a Mutagen lasts an hour and 40 minutes.
In class method of flight says hell no it isn't. And last time I checked, most encounters weren't huge amounts of time apart. At 10th level, a Mutagen lasts an hour and 40 minutes.unless your GM is nice and limits you to one encounter per day, mutagen archtype is flat out inferior to the dervish, lore warden, two handed fighter, mobile fighter, archer, two weapon fighter, brawler archtypesExtra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.Not really.IMHO Martial flexibility > armor training and Mutagen > Weapon Training.
They just flipped what you traded. You don't need weapon training and mutagens to hit things.
which is long for one combat but a day, so again unless your GM is doing the one encounter a day thing, its just as good as the other archtypes. it depends again on how the GM runs his game.
you can get flight from a lot of other things, including race, team mates, items. you can't get the things the other archtypes get by other methods, and they always work, all the time.
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In class method of flight says hell no it isn't. And last time I checked, most encounters weren't huge amounts of time apart. At 10th level, a Mutagen lasts an hour and 40 minutes.unless your GM is nice and limits you to one encounter per day, mutagen archtype is flat out inferior to the dervish, lore warden, two handed fighter, mobile fighter, archer, two weapon fighter, brawler archtypesExtra feats can't replace weapon training due to gloves of dueling. As stated by one of the designers in the slayer thread without weapon training and the glove the fighter will be behind the slayer. Fighter archtypes that give up weapon training are a non starter in my book.Not really.IMHO Martial flexibility > armor training and Mutagen > Weapon Training.
They just flipped what you traded. You don't need weapon training and mutagens to hit things.
Yeah it is a super nice archetype. The wings don't even require the mutagen. The mutagen will last through most dungeons. AND then you can brew one in an hour.
Hrm. I wouldn't say Sanctified Slayer is a "must have" but it's pretty solid.
I like Judgement, but I also like Favored Target. It seems like a fair trade to me, less versatility for an unlimited use attack/damage boost.
Considering it for my Asmodean Iniquisitor though. It seems to fit his character as a sort of torturer and, well, Inquisitor, and it's pretty solid too.
Scavion, I am stonewalling ikarinokami until he answers why is Divine Protection banned if not for power-level issues, in his own thread.
Anyway, Brawler - archetypes or not?
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which is long for one combat but a day, so again unless your GM is doing the one encounter a day thing, its just as good as the other archtypes. it depends again on how the GM runs his game.you can get flight from a lot of other things, including race, team mates, items. you can't get the things the other archtypes get by other methods, and they always work, all the time.
Do you only have encounters once every hour and a half? I've seen several groups clear dungeons or have plenty of time to brew another mutagen for the day.
And I don't know any methods of flight that are better than the Wings Discovery by 6th level.
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you can get flight from a lot of other things, including race, team mates, items. you can't get the things the other archtypes get by other methods, and they always work, all the time.
And when those abilities don't help in the encounter what do you do?
Nothing! With Martial flexibility I can actually adapted to situations and the mutagen allows me to give up weapon training. Win/Win.
Brawler. Definitely Archetypes. Mutagenic Mauler is great if you want to focus more on damage and even combat maneuvers.
Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
Why need a light crossbow? Crossbow mastery is a thing and the class still gets bonus combat feats and, as I mention in another thread, at level 11 they can have a free full load on a repeating crossbow every round. Still hoping there is clarification that they lose firearm proficiency for all crossbows though.
I actually forgot about Crossbow Mastery.
Though that still heavily pushes you toward Light Crossbow since if you pick up Crossbow Mastery two of your class features (vigilant loading and inexplicable reload) stop working.
Given that they don't actually lose Gunsmithing or Amateur Gunslinger I sort of get the sinking feeling this archetype got some of its class features cut to save space like the cleric one.
Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
Plus it's easy for them to pick up crusader's flurry which opens up some neat options. I've always wanted to flurry a scythe.
Dervish dance a scimitar while flurrying?