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Funny, but not in line with his Paladin ethos.
Have a bunch of the young town kids start emulating his activities in a coarse and uncouth manner and asking him "Which town dragon you gonna slay next?" while thrusting their hips and pulling odd faces - and generally be deplorable, have word out he's a lothario and cassanova, have Shayliss now 'with child'... Then point out to him that society expects a lot more.
Paladin Falls is dead boring.
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There's nothing Evil or Chaotic about having consensual sex regularly with multiple partners. Don't start slut-shaming your paladin, he's just roleplaying.
There are obviously more sophisticated and fantasy-ish ways to RP than "Is it female? I sleep with it" but he's trying, and that's more than you can say for some people. If these NPCs matter at all to the plot, him being close personal friends with them can only make for a better story, honestly.
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hmmm.
I'm not sure that "One night stand" is or is not inherently against a paladin's code depending on how it's done and how you treat your partner before/during/after, but it doesn't seem to me like something that Iomedae would be okay with-- particularly the point I'm now thinking after reading DominusMegadeus's post: regular consensual sex with multiple partners shouldn't be a problem... Still doesn't seem like Iomedae's style, and it definitely isn't Erastil's style, but some other Gods/Goddesses who sponsor Paladins wouldn't have issues with it--
but I'm getting the impression your paladin player isn't doing that-- if he's doing the one-night-stand, then forget about that person as a partner and move on to hunting new liaisons... that kind'a means treating people like they're disposable and/or interchangeable, which is NOT okay for any Paladin to do (there is a big difference between being polyamorous and/or seeking multiple "Friends with benefits" relationships-- but still treating each person as someone who matters, and continues to matter, to you; and doing the screw-em-and-leave-em routine).
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hmmm.
I'm not sure that "One night stand" is or is not inherently against a paladin's code depending on how it's done and how you treat your partner before/during/after, but it doesn't seem to me like something that Iomedae would be okay with-- particularly the point I'm now thinking after reading DominusMegadeus's post: regular consensual sex with multiple partners shouldn't be a problem... Still doesn't seem like Iomedae's style, and it definitely isn't Erastil's style, but some other Gods/Goddesses who sponsor Paladins wouldn't have issues with it--but I'm getting the impression your paladin player isn't doing that-- if he's doing the one-night-stand, then forget about that person as a partner and move on to hunting new liaisons... that kind'a means treating people like they're disposable and/or interchangeable, which is NOT okay for any Paladin to do (there is a big difference between being polyamorous and/or seeking multiple "Friends with benefits" relationships-- but still treating each person as someone who matters, and continues to matter, to you; and doing the screw-em-and-leave-em routine).
I think as long as he's completely honest about (as a paladin has to be) it's okay. "I'm just looking to get laid." "I don't care, ur charisma is so hawt." The women themselves can get riled up about it, but if he was forthcoming, I don't see an issue as far as the code or his powers are concerned.
Backing up my version of events; Adventurers (most adventurers) are exactly the kind of people to roll into a town and announce loudly that they're badass dragon slayers who would like to have lots of sex with fine looking (wo)men and no strings attached.
hmmm.
I'm not sure that "One night stand" is or is not inherently against a paladin's code depending on how it's done and how you treat your partner before/during/after, but it doesn't seem to me like something that Iomedae would be okay with-- particularly the point I'm now thinking after reading DominusMegadeus's post: regular consensual sex with multiple partners shouldn't be a problem... Still doesn't seem like Iomedae's style, and it definitely isn't Erastil's style, but some other Gods/Goddesses who sponsor Paladins wouldn't have issues with it--but I'm getting the impression your paladin player isn't doing that-- if he's doing the one-night-stand, then forget about that person as a partner and move on to hunting new liaisons... that kind'a means treating people like they're disposable and/or interchangeable, which is NOT okay for any Paladin to do (there is a big difference between being polyamorous and/or seeking multiple "Friends with benefits" relationships-- but still treating each person as someone who matters, and continues to matter, to you; and doing the screw-em-and-leave-em routine).
I think as long as he's completely honest about (as a paladin has to be) it's okay. "I'm just looking to get laid." "I don't care, ur charisma is so hawt." The women themselves can get riled up about it, but if he was forthcoming, I don't see an issue as far as the code or his powers are concerned.
Backing up my version of events; Adventurers (most adventurers) are exactly the kind of people to roll into a town and announce loudly that they're badass dragon slayers who would like to have lots of sex with fine looking (wo)men and no strings attached.
Gonna second Dominus on that. As long as Paladin is honest, up-front, and treats his partners honorably I don't see any issues with the Paladin getting around.
Now, if he's using the Iomedae paladin code, there could be some issues since that code does have rules about moderation and temperance. Though in that case it really depends on where one draws the line, when it comes to sleeping around. How many partners does it take before he's going too far?
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One of the tenets of Iomedea's Paladin Code is "I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae's perfection"
Doesn't sound like this character is being moderate or temperate. Iomedea's paladins are all about righteous battle and smiting things. Sounds like this guy might be happier as a paladin of Shelyn instead.
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Sounds like this guy might be happier as a paladin of Shelyn instead.
That could actually be your solution. Have him being "passed on" from one Goddess to the next, as a parallel to his worldly behaviour.
First of all, is this character a paladin who worships Iomidae or a paladin that belongs to Iomidae's order of paladins?
Thats just it, not very Iomedian.
And it doesn't sound like he's being all up front, it sounds more like a 'bro-code' Frat guy.
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Yeah, being promiscuous isn't a violation of LG...but even implying you'll be faithful and then cheating is. So, the question is whether he's making false promises. If he is, then he should definitely fall.
Additionally, there is the whole "Iomedae wouldn't like this.' thing. Frankly, if he continues to do this even if not lying, I'd have Iomedae desert him. Now, Paladins aren't primarily powered by Gods, but by their own righteousness, so that might not make him fall, but it'd probably be something notable and interesting.
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Sounds like this guy might be happier as a paladin of Shelyn instead.That could actually be your solution. Have him being "passed on" from one Goddess to the next, as a parallel to his worldly behaviour.
I'm going to add to the chorus to say you might encourage him to become a paladin of Shelyn. She seems way more in line for what he wants to play.
Of course, the problem also is that this is RotRL, and it treats 'lust' as being something "sinful", so . . .
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The problem with paladin class is that it is up to the DMs interpretation of the paladin code and the interpretation of alignment.
The main things here are:
To the DM- alignment is not a straight jacket. Go re-read the alignment part of your core rule book. Also read up on each god and what they are like and require of followers. Iomedea is a goddess of valor, temperance, moderation. She also is big on cleanliness and chastity. She spends more her time rooting out and smiling irredeemable evil things.
To the player- learn about the god your worshiping. Shelyn would probably be a better choice for a free love paladin to follow.
But it is not against the law to have consenting sex in golarion or on our planet. Now lying to get into bed with someone is not honorable and might be punishable but if he is just being honest and having fun with his fame then he is ok. I would just suggest a different god then iomedea.
@shadow in ROTRL those "sin points" come back in book 5 as either buffs or debuffed in the rune forge wings. Being completely virtuous will actually hurt you in book 5.
Lastly dont be so overly ready to punish. Mad he killed baby goblins. Nothing against the law against it. Goblins typically are evil little a-holes. Wiping out the entirety of them was his job. Where you wanting him to adopt them or raise them himself? Put them in a human orphanage?
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Lastly dont be so overly ready to punish. Mad he killed baby goblins. Nothing against the law against it. Goblins typically are evil little a-holes. Wiping out the entirety of them was his job. Where you wanting him to adopt them or raise them himself? Put them in a human orphanage?
This is a load of s$#!. Genocide is Evil, no matter who you're doing it to. Period. Ditto child murder.
And before you pull the 'overly restrictive' card, I've had several Paladin PCs and never once had one fall (because I'm a reasonable guy)...but they'd fall for this instantly and with extreme prejudice. And there actually a whole thread on at least one alternative to what to do with the poor little baby goblins.
That said, I don't want to derail this thread with this particular discussion...so let's just take it as noted that many people disagree with this particular point and move on, shall we?
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I would urge that Superman is lawful good. Would he visit a brothel or flit about from bed to bed?
One LG person's behavior does not equal all LG people's behavior. Paladin (yes, that's his name), from the classic TV Western Have Gun Will Travel is another excellent example of a LG character, and he had a new woman on his arm in practically every episode.
Besides, in Golarion you can oficially be a Paladin of Arshea (the Empyreal Lord of sex, among other things) or Lymnieris (the Empyreal Lord of prostitution, among many other things). So...yeah, that's pretty clearly allowed in and of itself. But lying about it? Not so much.
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Consensual sex is neither evil nor chaotic, and it is not dishonorable so I do not understand why you even bring it up unless it is a sour point for you in life.
Just to point this out: the church and orders would absolutely love to have fresh recruits to indoctrinate, so if he had children they would want to take them. Add in his station in life, Paladins, like Clerics, are high ranking members in any church that has them since the vast majority of people only have NPC levels. This more or less assures that his offspring will be taken care of, raise by, and trained by the church to serve the church if he doesn't care for them.
Golarion isn't a nice place, it isn't a happy place, that was thousands of years ago when Aroden was still alive and Cheliax was an empire of virtue that crushed or reformed evil under its boot.
Unless he has an Oath of Celibacy, sex isn't a problem for him.
Do not confuse Lawful with "Conservative." Lawful ONLY means that he follows all regulations and rules of a country so long as such are not inherently evil.
Don't confuse Good with "Conservative." This is also a horrible mistake. It is entirely possible to push the boundaries of the law while respecting them, and if roughly 75% of his actions are Lawful Good then he is still Lawful good. The "Instant Fall" bullcrap that some really bad GMs employ for arbitrary reasons is a sign of terrible GMing unless it is for major things.
Sex is not a problem, convincing people to have sex with your Paladin isn't a problem either. TBH I think it is just a lack of real world experience and some romanticization of sex beyond what it really is at is most basic level.
If your paladin is doing things that you don't like then give him a free phalacry of faithfullness so he knows if he is doing something that his gods disagree with. If you're a "Oh, you kicked a rat, you fall" GM then you really need to do this.
The Paladin code revolves around not causing undue pain on other people, forgiving while punishing unlawful actions that were taken for selfish or evil reasons, and acting with honor whenever possible. Killing defenseless or surrendered foes falls under acting dishonorably, so that fall or threat of falling was justified, but falling for having sex is ludicrous unless it is rape.
There are few "always evil" monsters in Pathfinder. There are neutral and good undead, daemons, demons devils and chromatic dragons so killing these under the assumption of them being evil, while justified based on the trend, is utilitarian to the extreme. Short of being in open war with a group such should not be allowed.
You need to find out what is reasonable for both you and your player, and if you can't come to an agreement then the burden of resolving the conflict falls to you, the GM.
To be honest it is easier to show a Paladin that he is doing something the Gods disapprove of by giving him an across the board Sacred Penalty to all his rolls that he is aware of. When this penalty gets too high, such as 1/2 his HD or -5, whichever is higher, he falls instantly. This mechanically and thematically punished him for horrible actions. Just reward him for acting in line with the gods by removing said penalty.
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The Paladin code revolves around not causing undue pain on other people, forgiving while punishing unlawful actions that were taken for selfish or evil reasons, and acting with honor whenever possible. Killing defenseless or surrendered foes falls under acting dishonorably, so that fall or threat of falling was justified, but falling for having sex is ludicrous unless it is rape.
I'd argue that cheating on someone you're in a committed, monogamous, relationship with is dishonorable, and would thus also result in a fall. As is implying you're in such a relationship to a person you've slept with when you don't see it that way. Both of which seemed very possible (thouh by no means certain) from the OP.
Other than that, though, I mostly agree with you (though I don't think Golarion is as awful a place as you seem to).
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I didn't realize soldiers had to be celibate. Temperate behaviour and moderate actions doesn't neccessarily mean he can't have consensual one-night stands, so long as they aren't full-blown orgies of depravity.
Iomedae is the warrior goddess, concerned with her soldiers winning the battle. Those same soldiers, on occassion, need stress relief, and if doing so involves having consensual one-night stands, I see nothing wrong.
I find it funny that you'd be ok with it if, instead of having one-night stands with consenting partners, he went to the pixies kitten and paid for services. What's more noble sounding?
"There's Paladin Bob, I here he and Shayliss are awfully close..."
or
"Hey look, there's Paladin Bob, I hear he's a regular with the ladies at the brothel..."
He's Lawful Good, not Dead.
Other than that, though, I mostly agree with you (though I don't think Golarion is as awful a place as you seem to).
If you go outside town, you'll get murdered and robbed by bandits.
Golarion is an extremely dangerous place, but this is mitigated for the PCs by them being overpowered Heroic classes.In The Dragon's Demand the PCs get to the town by being guards for a trading caravan. Going outside a well defended town means you enter a land filled with creatures that want to eat your face. You could walk around and never encounter them, but at the same time a werewolf could eat you the moment you're out of slight of the town guard.
Golarion is essentially as dangerous as the Spine of the World where cities and traveling caravans are shining bastions in a sea of death filled darkness. Some cities are just as dangerous as the outside world: Riddleport, for example, has a thriving wererat population that can make the district they stay to the most dangerous part of the city that is on par with most dungeons.
Unless the Paladin is in the committed, monogamous relationship it isn't a problem for him. If he is trying to bed a married woman then that only applies if the marriage is acknowledged by his faith, but this also only applies if he actually knows she is married. Then again, he might just be playing with her without having the intention to actually follow through. If she consents and is married then that is more of a problem with her marriage than with the Paladin. She and her husband should get counselling or a divorce so she can follow her righteous boy-toy around.
XD
Forced leadership feat, and her as the cohort.
NPCs dont have to just lie down with whoever comes calling. If you think its going to be problematic just have the NPCs not be interested.
Paladins have a tendency to focus on diplomacy, they have naturally good charisma scores and are sincerely good people who can prove it when asked to via magic powers they get from the universe for being so perfect.
They're like the safest choice a single NPC can make.
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NPCs dont have to just lie down with whoever comes calling. If you think its going to be problematic just have the NPCs not be interested.Paladins have a tendency to focus on diplomacy, they have naturally good charisma scores and are sincerely good people who can prove it when asked to via magic powers they get from the universe for being so perfect.
They're like the safest choice a single NPC can make.
Its still the NPCs choice to make. Unless I am mistaken, you cant diplo an NPC into bed against their will.
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I'm okay with the consensual, honest-about-intentions sex in general. The "temperate" part of the Iomedaean code could be a bit tricky, but not a total showstopper. If you do the trysting strictly in your after-office hours and it doesn't reduce your readiness for service (heh), then I don't think that's intemperate.
But it can still get a bit "interesting", and I don't think that's unfair the player, if an NPC isn't quite as ready the day after to just forget the whole thing. I mean, you told the lady it's just for tonight, and she said OK to that. But you're also highly attractive (Charisma!) so the next day she might still try to talk you out of getting on your way.
You're not obligated to stay of course, but just how you handle the awkward situation does matter a bit. Not immediate trouble, but there are more and less gentlemanlike ways of acting in these situations. It could be an interesting scene.
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Kinda reminds me of Thoros of Myr
Drinking and whoring, but in the end, he is not a bad person, is not the most pious person, but he is pretty much the only one able to perform miracles on behalf of his god.
I love Scoundrel-ish Paladins.
They give a human dimension to something that many people play in such a clean and precise way that feels kinda unpersonal.
I always felt paladins shouldn't fall because of their actions, they should fall because something changes in them.
Basically when they give up on something that make them qualify as a paladin.
I don't see being a ladies man something that disqualify a paladin.
Is possibly something that others paladins will frown upon, but not something that strips you from your powers.
Taking unfair advantage of a woman, significantly violating your code for a chance to get laid, be in a cruel and abusive relationship, that's something that might tarnish you to the point of falling, but anithing else sounds like fair game to me.
I would urge that Superman is lawful good. Would he visit a brothel or flit about from bed to bed?
Well he did kinda knock up Lois then leave the planet (Earth, not the newspaper) till the kid was 6...
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I play a paladin who is a paladin of arshea. Not to mention the emyprial lord of prostitution is LG.
My Paladin is a Courtesan. She's never even come close to falling even though she'll do many things with her clients, including having sex with them (though not always). She fully enjoys sex, and revels in being a sexual being. She sees the occasion of two or more people enjoying their bodies together is something to be celebrated.
So, no a paladin shouldn't fall for having one night stands. There's nothing unlawful or non-good about that.
If he's being a dick about his one night stands... and bragging about it and causing the women emotional distress because of it.
that's different.
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Paladins have a tendency to focus on diplomacy, they have naturally good charisma scores and are sincerely good people who can prove it when asked to via magic powers they get from the universe for being so perfect.
They're like the safest choice a single NPC can make.
Plus, Immunity to disease. :D
OP: What did you EXPECT the Paladin to do about the goblin babies? That sounds suspiciously like a 'no win scenario' to me.
Take then to a temple of Serenre, and let the priests there sort them out. Since they're all about redemption and fire. What better goddess to help goblins become good?
So, I'm running a Rise of the Runelord AP, and I am being thrown a curve ball with one of my player's who is playing a Scoundrel-ish Paladin of Iomedae.
So, the deeds he has done so far is banging Shayliss Vender, and now he is aiming for other female NPCs in town such as Ameiko, Savah, and Rynshynn.
I have already revoked his powers once for killing a room full of Goblin babies, and am unsure if I should revoke his powers again as this is going against a conservative expectation of Paladins. I think I wouldn't be so against this if he went to the Pixie's Kittens and actually paid for the services there.
On the other hand, this does provide some comic relief for the group.
Any suggestions as to how to handle this? I feel like I'm running a table top dating simulator every time we go back to Sandpoint.
There's precisely zero reason to gank his powers for that. He's not doing anything wrong or even remotely evil, assuming it's all consensual and such.
If you have personal issues with it, talk to the player and ask that his Paladin keep it in his codpiece more often.
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I love Scoundrel-ish Paladins.
They give a human dimension to something that many people play in such a clean and precise way that feels kinda unpersonal.
I agree with this very much. It does require a bit of maturity from the GM and the player both. When I started my paladin in PFS I was a bit hesitant about that, because I had no clue what kind of people I'd be playing with. So far though, they're been cool people, so in retrospect I could've made my paladin a bit more easygoing.
My first thought on the Paladin not messing up his alignment: Paladin, Was is "good" for you?
Didn't James Jacobs state somewhere that the greatest drawback of the Paladin was the overly restrictive alignment requirement?
Didn't James Jacobs state somewhere that the greatest drawback of the Paladin was the overly restrictive alignment requirement?
I think anybody who's ever actually thought about it for two seconds has said that.
The greatest drawback of the Paladin is also a strength, and that's it's reliance on swift and immediate actions. That goes haywire once you introduce Heroic which only make things worse.
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I don't see a problem for Paladins (in general) in having "casual sex"-- the part that I do still see as a problem implied in the original poster's comments and some of the follow-on discussion is this:
In order to be genuinely good-- when you're engaging in close interactions with others-- you have to acknowledge and treat your partners, liaisons, etc, as living, breathing, sentient, feeling beings-- not as objects. You have to acknowledge them as people who matter, not as disposable, interchangeable parts. Or, to put it in slightly species-ist terms-- you have to acknowledge and respect their humanity, and always treat them as people-- in Kantian terms, as ends in and of themselves, not solely as means to an end.
This does not preclude one-night stands and casual affairs... it just places some strong considerations in how you conduct such affairs and interludes. Also, a Paladin can completely fail at this in his/her interactions with others without it involving sex or romance at all. It's a pretty general consideration Paladins (and other good characters) ought to be at least somewhat concerned with any time they interact with others (outside of the necessities for harsher treatment on the battlefield).
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However, even with the above considerations acknowledged, one night stands still do not seem to me to be very much in character for a dedicated follower of Iomedae.
This thread is very relevant to my interests.
From what I've seen, Paizo is very open about accepting any and all sexualities, even if it doesn't make sense (like anything involving Lamashtu *shudders*). It wouldn't surprise me if paladin codes would allow for one night stands, though maybe it could be considered not moderate enough for Iomadaean paladins.
I would think engaging in casual sex is not a problem. Sex, even casual sex, is not inherently good or evil. But the actions leading up to it and afterwards could be. Honestly, due the pleasure and enjoyment it provides it could be considered a good act if viewed under certain lights, though I maintain its a neutral act.
Regardless, the sex itself is not the issue. However, how the paladin treats his sexual partners both before and after, what he says about them after, what he says to try to pick them up, even what he thinks about them could all be evil, or at least very mean spirited acts, that should likely call for atonement on his part.
If the paladin says the he will stay with her, and that she is the only one for him (when has beded three other girls this week) then he's just outright lying which is permitted by the Paladin's code.
The only other complication is how to interpret Iomedae's particular code which which requires temperate action and how this qualifies. That is a discussion for you as a GM to have with your player.
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I like the idea of the Paladin being passed off between goddesses, but are you sure that Shelyn is the right one? Shelyn is all about inner and outer beauty, and is more about "love where you will" than promiscuity. Shelyn worshippers are about love and affection more than lust. I was thinking Calistrae might be more appropriate...
As for the whole one night stand thing... so long as it is consensual and honest, it could actually add elements of richness to a class that is often seen as stodgy and one-dimensional. I like the idea of a ladies man Paladin, so long as he's not a liar and takes care of his responsibilities.
Hmm
I think it's the code of conduct over everything else. The only requirement to be lawful good is to do what is right and just. The problem is that the paladin not only has an alignment restriction, they have a code of conduct that goes with it that some GMs are too eager to turn against players. It really boils down to "does the GM think your paladin is acting unchivalrously?"
But in my opinion, it's funnier to play a paladin like a kid off the random age generator most races get and have them be so obsessed with their martial training and their religion, they haven't even learned so much as American public school health class would teach.
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Oh for f@~+s sake people.
This is not an issue.
Grow up.
He is a holy warrior in a world where most disputes are still settled with steel. He fights the darkness in dungeons and men's hearts every day.
The only way his lovelife would be in qyestion is if he RAPED his women, or was abusive in some way.
(Ok, so maybe I'm getting a bit tired of the "will he fall if ..."-threads. I'm sorry if I come across as offensive. But this is offensive to my brain.)
Also, slut-shaming is beneath us, stop pissing on your friends parade.
It's a game.
Calistrae is CN, she has no Paladins.I like the idea of the Paladin being passed off between goddesses, but are you sure that Shelyn is the right one? Shelyn is all about inner and outer beauty, and is more about "love where you will" than promiscuity. Shelyn worshippers are about love and affection more than lust. I was thinking Calistrae might be more appropriate...
As for the whole one night stand thing... so long as it is consensual and honest, it could actually add elements of richness to a class that is often seen as stodgy and one-dimensional. I like the idea of a ladies man Paladin, so long as he's not a liar and takes care of his responsibilities.
Hmm
In fact she has antipaladins.