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"Monster" orphanages and sanctuaries (Golarion)


Advice

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Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

determined to make something good come out of all the bad of late

Okay, the goblin baby scenario comes up a lot. There's no shortage of GMs that'll throw it at a good-aligned party with a side-dish of "wat do". For those players that want to play idealistic characters, there's some tricky work and logistics involved if an appropriate church(like that of Sarenrae) or other such organization isn't close enough realistically to take them in.

So, wat do?

This thread is meant to offer flavor and practical advice on a race-by-race basis for those players and GMs that want to run a Big Damn Good party. If you've got ideas about some of these races, pitch 'em, along with any criticism and further advice.

Orc
Recommended Deities: Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Kurgess, Erastil
Recommended Environment: Rural/Isolated

The common psychological traits among the orc race make it difficult to keep large numbers of children together without them becoming a bad influence on each other. It is generally recommended that they be kept in smaller, separate groups.

It is imperative that the caretakers are capable of projecting an imposing figure, be it physical in nature or through sheer force of personality in order to establish that they are in charge. Half-orcs are highly recommended for these roles when possible. The caretakers must also be aware of the almost inevitable development of a pecking order amongst the children and take steps to keep relationships between them as equal as possible, discouraging the instinct to bully later in life.

Two matters are of absolute importance in the development of orc children:

1. Healthy outlets for frustration and anger must be made available. Any constructive methods are recommended. Consequences for loss of self-control should be made clear early on.

2. They must be kept busy. Young orcs should be inundated with positive activity, boastful storytelling, and work to develop skills they will need in adult life. Orcs live "faster" than humans, and as such no moment can be wasted. They must be challenged, and shown how to constructively overcome those challenges.

Keeping small animals on hand is strongly discouraged. Larger, sturdier animals carries less risk provided the presence of adult supervisors.

Wooden structures are recommended specfically because they will be damaged. This offers the opportunity for the young to both be put to work and to drive home that actions have consequences. Wooden structures are also easier and faster to repair.

It is generally recommended to keep such an establishment at a distance from other settlements, especially in areas where orcish raids are a very real possibility for the local populace. Armed guards are suggested in case of external threats.

Sarenrae's church offers the strongest support structure for such establishments, but Cayden Cailean and Kurgess tend to be the easiest good-aligned deities for young orcs to relate to. Mentions of Gorum are highly discouraged.

(next up: hobgoblin military schools)

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dotted. Great idea!

Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Hobgoblins

Suggested Deities: Abadar, Irori, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Torag*
Suggested Environment: Urban

Hobgoblins are by nature an orderly race, and will generally instinctively adhere to the social structures introduced at an early age. As such, they are the easiest of the goblinoid races to provide for and educate.

While some balk at the notion of conscripting children, orphanages operated by the military or with military supervision have proven effective with the vast majority of hobgoblin youths. It is in many ways similar to what hobgoblin children would be provided in their native cultures, with a few notable, and necessary, exceptions:

1. Oversight by the government and the appropriate churches guides hobgoblin children towards positive outlooks towards society and their place in it. Some critics denounce it as indoctrination, while defenders of the practice state that instilling a desire to serve or at least fit into society is a healthier alternative to the stereotypical hobgoblin outlook of using or flaunting society.

2. Loyalty to the whole is stressed over individual ambition. While hobgoblins are traditionally characterized as treacherous and self-serving, adopted youths are first instilled with a sense of loyalty to their siblings and caretakers, then to the unit as a whole, then to their gods, rulers, and country.

3. Honor, discipline, and adherence to regulation are stressed to the point of becoming an aspect of the hobgoblin racial identity.

Hobgoblins also have the advantage of taking to urban life with relative ease, though many cities will generally be unwelcoming at first. As such, it is highly advised that such institutions be placed within or close to large population centers, to further aid in successful integration with other races.

Hobgoblins tend to take to the churches of Abadar and Irori quite easily; the former's openminded approach to order and the latter's focus on self-perfection strike a chord within many of their number. Iomedae is generally less popular, though more than a few small armies of hobgoblins have been raised in her name and fiercely taken to her code of honor and valor. While deeply entrenched prejudices among dwarves are a sad fact, more openminded priests of Torag actually see hobgoblins as rough material that may yet be crafted into a people of great potential. One should be warned that the church of Asmodeus also has great interest in such endeavors, and are all too willing to offer funding in exchange for a hand in the orphanage's administration.

Retired members of the military in good standing are highly recommended to staff hobgoblin orphanage-acadamies, along with any currently enlisted staff. Chaplains are also highly recommended to have on-site at all times.

Monasteries have proven effective as well, particularly those dedicated to the more militant gods, but they are generally not able to take in the large numbers the "military school" model can support. Still, a number of monastic orders have successfully bolstered their numbers with loyal hobgoblin adherents.

Andoran

I am thoroughly intrigued by this thread. I would love to hear more.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

will do bugbears and goblins later today

would do more but currently posting from portable comp made of brick and wood to get connection (thanks Comcast)

Andoran

Although the one qualm I have with the baby goblin scenario is that Paizo has made the fluff that in Pathfinder goblins are creatures of pure evil. They exist to kill, destroy, and cause chaos. Much like Orcs in the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k universes. We have yet to see a good goblin in Golarion cannon.

Andoran

I like it as well. Well done.

Taldor

Certainly interesting, so you're going through the goblinoid races first, then what? Are you interested in letting others do other intelligent monster races like gnolls or boggards?


Mikaze wrote:

determined to make something good come out of all the bad of late

+10 For this alone. Alignment debates have become nasty lately. Best of luck in avoiding that.

On the subject of the recent squabbles, someone was talking about non-malicious medusae (Medusas? Meduses?). I would love to see some suggestions for integrating them. I'm thinking Ray Charles style sunglasses. ^_^

I've always been one of those players who enjoys a variety of races as opposed to the human-dominated Golarion. A sort of Mos Eisley cantina feeling.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is great. In our Runelords game one of the players (cleric of Sarenrae) has "adopted" a goblin baby from Thistletop. It was living with Father Zantus at the church in Sandpoint but she's gone and gotten herself land and a title at this point so now she has some folks taking care of it in a commune she set up south of the town. I suspect she'd be interested, someday, in setting up an orphanage for wayward creatures (at least those who also like fire).
M

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote:
Certainly interesting, so you're going through the goblinoid races first, then what? Are you interested in letting others do other intelligent monster races like gnolls or boggards?

still posting from crapcomputer made of twine and my own hair: forgive badtype

All comers are welcome really. Anyone wanting to do any races, including those already done, come on down! I'm hoping for this to be more an "our thread" than a "my thread" :)

Madclaw: there is a neutral gob at least, honorary Hellknight! even made his own helmet!

Lurk3r: You need to check out the Kaer Maga book, you'd love it. :) And I'm partially to blame on one of the alignment debates getting hostile, have to admit. Medusas will get some love in this thread. There will be "sunglasses" of a sort. If they're good enough for my favorite medusa NPC, they're good enough for the entire race. :D

Andoran

Mikaze wrote:
Madclaw: there is a neutral gob at least, honorary Hellknight! even made his own helmet!

Really? Where?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Madclaw wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Madclaw: there is a neutral gob at least, honorary Hellknight! even made his own helmet!
Really? Where?

Adventure path spoiler(minor)

Spoiler:
IIRC, the first volume of Council of Thieves. He's either N or LN, but the fact that he made his own hellknight helmet is just damn adorable :)

Taldor

Do Neothelids next!


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Medusas will get some love in this thread. There will be "sunglasses" of a sort. If they're good enough for my favorite medusa NPC, they're good enough for the entire race. :D

There are smoked goggles from the APG...which are used to protect creature from gaze attacks...I don't see a reason why they could not work to contain a gaze attack. Though smoke goggles should be standard gear for the staff at the very least.

A comment about the orcs and hobgoglins...

Orcs: I don't know if you were a fan of the FR but this was pretty much done in that setting. The church of Eldath( goddess of peace) took in orcs orphans brought to them by adventurers and raised them in a loving enviroment. It created a sub-race of orcs called the Odonti(I think).
I think it is important that there is a loving enviroment.

Hobgoblins: I like this set up in Golarion...though it is not so much I can see this lead to a good end. I can see a nation like Molthume doing this to breed and raise their own soldiers...sorta like the Janissary in RL. I know that was not your intent but it gaved me a couple of great ideas.

Overall great work. I like this thread. Though I think there are creature out there that are pretty rare....that you would see mixed schools.


Genius!


For a slightly darker spin I can see certain groups keeping "hunting sanctuaries" that have inteligent humanoids and other monsters for sport.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I know that for a half-orc PC, Irori gave her character the balance and stability that she needed after being raised for the first 8-10 years in the Hold of Belkzen.

Probably not a standard choice for orcs, but I can see a LG temple to Irori being very good for the trouble cases.

Contributor

13 people marked this as a favorite.

Looking at goblins and their predilections, I'll note the following:

1. They are afraid of dogs.

2. They are afraid of horses.

3. They don't mind rats.

4. They enjoy singing, particularly simple songs with grisly lyrics.

5. They love to eat, and the more red meat the better.

6. They enjoy hacking things up with machetes.

7. They love fire and explosions.

8. They love thrills and excitement.

The merchant priests of Abadar have looked at these job requirements and have found a perfect match to allow goblins a useful and prosperous place in humanoid society: crew of a whaling vessel.

Dogs and horses are of no use on ship, so are not found there. Rats, on the other hand, a constant problem, so it's a bonus for them to be pets of the crew. The current crew will be happy to teach little goblins the lyrics of "What Do We Do With a Drunken Sailor?" and will only have to make it clear to the goblins that these are not actual suggestions of what to do with other sailors. Except sometimes, in case of mutiny or insurrection, in which case it is a regular list. Note: "Make him marry the captain's daughter" is a euphemism for a hanging, not a punitive marriage ceremony.

Whales, of course, have a great deal of meat, and sperm whales have valuable spermacetti. Giant squid and krakens? All you-can-eat calamari. Dragon turtles make dragon turtle soup. And sea serpents? The merchant priests of Abadar have heard that snake tastes like chicken, so can only assume sea serpent tastes like giant chicken of the sea. All of these can be hacked up with machetes, and the sailors will show how rocket-propelled harpoons can be fired off into their sides. These harpoons are then attached to lines which the sailors attach to a skiff to let the sea monster take them on a "sleigh ride."

The merchant priests of Abadar are certain that goblins, being illiterate, will thus not know what a homonym is and call it a "slay ride" instead. Being respectful of their cultural taboos, the merchant priests see no reason to explain this difference.

Moreover, while the appetites of goblins are prodigious, there's only so much kraken one can eat before the other end begins to spoil, so it's better to process it all, haul it into port, and trade it for other items which the goblins might enjoy as useful and productive members of humanoid society.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Note: "Make him marry the captain's daughter" is a euphemism for a hanging, not a punitive marriage ceremony.

I'd always heard "Put 'em in a bed with the captain's daughter". Is that a similar euphemism, or a slightly more literal lyric? (In any case, being caught with the captain's daughter is a pretty short trip to being keel-hauled.)

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ross Byers wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Note: "Make him marry the captain's daughter" is a euphemism for a hanging, not a punitive marriage ceremony.
I'd always heard "Put 'em in a bed with the captain's daughter". Is that a similar euphemism, or a slightly more literal lyric? (In any case, being caught with the captain's daughter is a pretty short trip to being keel-hauled.)

Just looked it up. I remember reading that the captain's daughter was the yard arm of the mast and marrying her was being hung, but it looks like the most popular interpretation is that the captain's daughter is a cat-o'-nine-tails and doing anything with her is a euphemism for getting whipped.

In any case, I think Golarion goblins would both enjoy the song and working on a whaling ship.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin Whalers

I know that was sort of tongue in cheek... but I'm so stealing that for my homebrew. :)

It makes so much sense, you can put twice as many goblins on a ship as you can humans, even a few more than halflings (they're smaller than halflings). They eat anything edible and don't complain, and they enjoy hacking up the whales.

Put a humanoid crew in charge of actually harpooning and running the boat, send the goblins out on the actual skiffs, and you've got a very good synergy.


Raising a Drow child is not a task to be undertaken lightly. In fact unless the care provider is capable of helping cleanse the child's mind and body as much as raise it the outcomes are typically bleak.

The state of 'drow' is almost as much a disease as it is a race, and special continuous medical and magical treatments are needed to help repair what the strange emanations of the underdark has down to the child's developing body.

About the only church that has shown the resilience and care for the soul of the young drow as much as the body and mind has been the Church of Shelyn surprisingly. Another surprising noteworthy development of the Shelynian method is the discoloring of the drow child. The magics involved seem to bleach the child's skin back to a more regular elven skin tone, to the point that it almost becomes impossible to tell the drow child from any other elven child. It has been speculated that this is due to the removal of the damage from the emanations that seem to cause the 'drow' condition as much as any genetics play into it.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Raising a Drow child is not a task to be undertaken lightly. In fact unless the care provider is capable of helping cleanse the child's mind and body as much as raise it the outcomes are typically bleak.

The state of 'drow' is almost as much a disease as it is a race, and special continuous medical and magical treatments are needed to help repair what the strange emanations of the underdark has down to the child's developing body.

About the only church that has shown the resilience and care for the soul of the young drow as much as the body and mind has been the Church of Shelyn surprisingly. Another surprising noteworthy development of the Shelynian method is the discoloring of the drow child. The magics involved seem to bleach the child's skin back to a more regular elven skin tone, to the point that it almost becomes impossible to tell the drow child from any other elven child. It has been speculated that this is due to the removal of the damage from the emanations that seem to cause the 'drow' condition as much as any genetics play into it.

Cool character concept. "Surface Drow"


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

Raising a Drow child is not a task to be undertaken lightly. In fact unless the care provider is capable of helping cleanse the child's mind and body as much as raise it the outcomes are typically bleak.

The state of 'drow' is almost as much a disease as it is a race, and special continuous medical and magical treatments are needed to help repair what the strange emanations of the underdark has down to the child's developing body.

About the only church that has shown the resilience and care for the soul of the young drow as much as the body and mind has been the Church of Shelyn surprisingly. Another surprising noteworthy development of the Shelynian method is the discoloring of the drow child. The magics involved seem to bleach the child's skin back to a more regular elven skin tone, to the point that it almost becomes impossible to tell the drow child from any other elven child. It has been speculated that this is due to the removal of the damage from the emanations that seem to cause the 'drow' condition as much as any genetics play into it.

Not sure I like that approach, personally. It's saying 'the only way for a drow to be non evil is to make them elves'. That implies they are evil from birth, which means they should have the [Evil] tag attached to them. Nothing without the [Evil] tag is inherently evil, per the core rules.

Shadow Lodge

mdt wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin Whalers
They eat anything edible and don't complain, and they enjoy hacking up the whales.

Although I have a feeling that the goblin definition of edible is rather encompassing, therefore the food stocks onboard might be a bit odd! :)

Contributor

mdt wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin Whalers

I know that was sort of tongue in cheek... but I'm so stealing that for my homebrew. :)

It makes so much sense, you can put twice as many goblins on a ship as you can humans, even a few more than halflings (they're smaller than halflings). They eat anything edible and don't complain, and they enjoy hacking up the whales.

Put a humanoid crew in charge of actually harpooning and running the boat, send the goblins out on the actual skiffs, and you've got a very good synergy.

Glad you like it. I'll admit it's only half tongue-in-cheek, as that's what I think the merchant priests of Abadar would be saying behind closed doors. Publicly, they'd be saying stuff about "rehabilitating the goblin children" and various bits of feel-good PR only tangentially related to their prime directive of expanding civilization and commerce.

Goblins are probably lousy at personal finances, so if you want them to be participants in the economy, having them be sailors on holiday running into town and blowing all their wages on gewgaws and trinkets and whatever gaudy stuff catches their fancy? Yay, fireworks! Pretty!

I'd also suspect that a lot of regular goblins mind find themselves either shanghaid or sentenced to work on whaling vessels, assuming the local judge is an Abadarite who believes restitution is more profitable than execution.


mdt wrote:
Not sure I like that approach, personally. It's saying 'the only way for a drow to be non evil is to make them elves'. That implies they are evil from birth, which means they should have the [Evil] tag attached to them. Nothing without the [Evil] tag is inherently evil, per the core rules.

I do understand what you are saying.. but I'm going with what Galorian already has going for the drow -- remember that for many drow it is a change from elf to drow. Drow that are born drow didn't make the choice... so I see the 'drow' condition in those cases as being more of a 'disease' than a choice...

It's a bit like having a magical/radiation tumor growing in your brain causing behavior without you having a full choice in it. If you want to have control over the behavior you have to remove the tumor somehow.

Since second darkness we actually have a good amount of information on the 'drow' condition and as such I see this (my offering) as a means of helping the drow kid, without running counter to what is already in cannon.

Taldor

mdt wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Raising a Drow child is not a task to be undertaken lightly. In fact unless the care provider is capable of helping cleanse the child's mind and body as much as raise it the outcomes are typically bleak.

The state of 'drow' is almost as much a disease as it is a race, and special continuous medical and magical treatments are needed to help repair what the strange emanations of the underdark has down to the child's developing body.

About the only church that has shown the resilience and care for the soul of the young drow as much as the body and mind has been the Church of Shelyn surprisingly. Another surprising noteworthy development of the Shelynian method is the discoloring of the drow child. The magics involved seem to bleach the child's skin back to a more regular elven skin tone, to the point that it almost becomes impossible to tell the drow child from any other elven child. It has been speculated that this is due to the removal of the damage from the emanations that seem to cause the 'drow' condition as much as any genetics play into it.

Not sure I like that approach, personally. It's saying 'the only way for a drow to be non evil is to make them elves'. That implies they are evil from birth, which means they should have the [Evil] tag attached to them. Nothing without the [Evil] tag is inherently evil, per the core rules.

Honestly per Golarion flavor, I wouldn't mind drow having the [evil] tag.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
mdt wrote:
Not sure I like that approach, personally. It's saying 'the only way for a drow to be non evil is to make them elves'. That implies they are evil from birth, which means they should have the [Evil] tag attached to them. Nothing without the [Evil] tag is inherently evil, per the core rules.

I do understand what you are saying.. but I'm going with what Galorian already has going for the drow -- remember that for many drow it is a change from elf to drow. Drow that are born drow didn't make the choice... so I see the 'drow' condition in those cases as being more of a 'disease' than a choice...

It's a bit like having a magical/radiation tumor growing in your brain causing behavior without you having a full choice in it. If you want to have control over the behavior you have to remove the tumor somehow.

Since second darkness we actually have a good amount of information on the 'drow' condition and as such I see this (my offering) as a means of helping the drow kid, without running counter to what is already in cannon.

Ah, ok. Setting specific then. I don't have the Golarian setting, so I didn't realize they'd done that to drow. Not my cup of tea.

Sczarni

Dotted. I will need this very soon. Thanks.


mdt wrote:
Ah, ok. Setting specific then. I don't have the Golarian setting, so I didn't realize they'd done that to drow. Not my cup of tea.

To be fair to paizo drow is something that can happen to an elf when they are below the mortal ability to be evil. In most cases it isn't a 'born into' thing, but a 'you are so absolutely horrible that this transformation happens'.

In fact spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler in spoiler spoiler about spoiler during an AP.

Osirion

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Looking at goblins and their predilections, I'll note the following:

1. They are afraid of dogs.
2. They are afraid of horses.
3. They don't mind rats.
4. They enjoy singing, particularly simple songs with grisly lyrics.
5. They love to eat, and the more red meat the better.
6. They enjoy hacking things up with machetes.
7. They love fire and explosions.
8. They love thrills and excitement.

I would have gone with sewer worker, or junkyard salvager, or charcoal-maker, or barnacle-scraper, or rat-hunter, or 'guy who holds the candle in the coal mine and goes ahead to check for gas pockets...'

But whaler is certainly an interesting choice.

Hmm. They enjoy singing. Can you imagine the perplexed look of a merchant who receives an important message from a goblin singing-telegram-girl?

.

As for the base concept, I could see a half-orc cleric of Gorum making good coin organizing a pack of cast-off tribeless orc survivors and whatnot into a mercenary band, operating in Mendev or whatever (not Lastwall, obviously). They'd pretty much do what orcs do *and get paid for it.* They might even get a few companies shipped down to Katapesh, to guard caravans against gnoll raiders! They wouldn't be 'good' by any means, but would still be as necessary and useful as the 'low templars' and other non-good human mercenary organizations.

Hobgoblins of Irori would be very cool. The faith stresses individual self-perfection, and yet also has a strong adherence upon law and discipline, and, like the faith of Gorum, isn't antithetical to a less compassionate interpretation of law and discipline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

Qadira

From a modern standard, is it really a good idea to segregate them and not raise them as part of the larger society?

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

A majority of the "goodly" races are neutral, not good. Why hold them to a higher standard

Qadira

Abraham spalding wrote:
mdt wrote:
Not sure I like that approach, personally. It's saying 'the only way for a drow to be non evil is to make them elves'. That implies they are evil from birth, which means they should have the [Evil] tag attached to them. Nothing without the [Evil] tag is inherently evil, per the core rules.

I do understand what you are saying.. but I'm going with what Galorian already has going for the drow -- remember that for many drow it is a change from elf to drow. Drow that are born drow didn't make the choice... so I see the 'drow' condition in those cases as being more of a 'disease' than a choice...

It's a bit like having a magical/radiation tumor growing in your brain causing behavior without you having a full choice in it. If you want to have control over the behavior you have to remove the tumor somehow.

Since second darkness we actually have a good amount of information on the 'drow' condition and as such I see this (my offering) as a means of helping the drow kid, without running counter to what is already in cannon.

fascinating, i no longer hate that they included drow


Andrew R wrote:
Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

A majority of the "goodly" races are neutral, not good. Why hold them to a higher standard

Agreed -- it's not about changing hearts and minds as much as it is about integrating the various races and helping them (and society at large) get along with minimal bloodshed and violence.

After they start getting to be more... (I hesitate to use the word but)... civilized then working them into higher moral standards becomes more important.

Qadira

Abraham spalding wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

A majority of the "goodly" races are neutral, not good. Why hold them to a higher standard

Agreed -- it's not about changing hearts and minds as much as it is about integrating the various races and helping them (and society at large) get along with minimal bloodshed and violence.

After they start getting to be more... (I hesitate to use the word but)... civilized then working them into higher moral standards becomes more important.

It will be all for nothing if the monsters are not part of society, they need acceptance as much as the monster itself needs to learn to behave


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew R wrote:
It will be all for nothing if the monsters are not part of society, they need acceptance as much as the monster itself needs to learn to behave

Agreed. Unfortunately, that will take time, and it won't be easy. Just look at the civil rights movement. But, it has to start somewhere.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
It will be all for nothing if the monsters are not part of society, they need acceptance as much as the monster itself needs to learn to behave
Agreed. Unfortunately, that will take time, and it won't be easy. Just look at the civil rights movement. But, it has to start somewhere.

This, pretty much. Integration is important, and for almost all of these creatures it's an inevitable step in the process, but the problem is as much with society at large as with the creatures themselves.* Starting off, protecting the children from the scorn of the outside world, and possibly even violence, is the top priority.

There are other issues as well. If this were my homebrew integration would be much easier(and honestly would already be present in many areas), but in Golarion, in order ot push "monsters are monstrous", a lot of psychological and behavioral baggage was given to many of these races. (it's actually my least favorite aspect from a setting I generally love)

Also, with the very short childhood for orcs and goblinoids, raising them alongside other humanoid children presents all the dangers and potential for tragedy that can come with half-orc children being raised with human children, only amplified.

Integration still takes place early on, but it starts with the caretakers. As mentioned above, the loving environment comes first. Then they can start interacting with an outside world that may not view them with the same kindness.

Some of the monstrous races will have a much easier time being raised among other humanoids however.

*Neothelids are going to get a very different treatment. It's gonna be kind of weird. But hopefully cool. And possibly gross.

Oh yeah, Cappadocius, I totally took that dare. ;)


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:


There are other issues as well. If this were my homebrew integration would be much easier(and honestly would already be present in many areas), but in Golarion, in order ot push "monsters are monstrous", a lot of psychological and behavioral baggage was given to many of these races. (it's actually my least favorite aspect from a setting I generally love)

This is the nail on the head of why I hate using other people's settings. They do things I find incredibly distasteful, and I really really dislike at a fundamental level. Then they marry it to something I actually like.

One reason I quit using adventures, I just ended up rewriting them anyway. If I'm going to do 60% of the work over again, why bother? I eventually gave up even using them for ideas, as after awhile, I found that the plots were the same plots over and over again.

The only one I've even considered buying in the last 10 years is Kingmaker, and only for the rules crunch, not for the adventure itself.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

On Drow: I don't know that it's that severe a problem. We have some canonical non-evil drow in the setting after all, who remain drow. That and I'd really want to avoid the solution to be "make them not-drow", like with Senshen. Maybe it's just an overreaction, but redemption being tied to a lightening of skin color just makes me uncomfortable.(was not a fan of what happened to Eilistraean drow in FR recently)

The big problem with raising them is going to be coming from the elves, via the Lantern Bearers, IMO.

John Kretzer wrote:

There are smoked goggles from the APG...which are used to protect creature from gaze attacks...I don't see a reason why they could not work to contain a gaze attack. Though smoke goggles should be standard gear for the staff at the very least.

A comment about the orcs and hobgoglins...

Orcs: I don't know if you were a fan of the FR but this was pretty much done in that setting. The church of Eldath( goddess of peace) took in orcs orphans brought to them by adventurers and raised them in a loving enviroment. It created a sub-race of orcs called the Odonti(I think).
I think it is important that there is a loving enviroment.

Hobgoblins: I like this set up in Golarion...though it is not so much I can see this lead to a good end. I can see a nation like Molthume doing this to breed and raise their own soldiers...sorta like the Janissary in RL. I know that was not your intent but it gaved me a couple of great ideas.

Overall great work. I like this thread. Though I think there are creature out there that are pretty rare....that you would see mixed schools.

There's a lot of Forgotten Realms I loved, but I never knew about the Odonti. Now I wish I had.

And agreed on the loving environment. That's going to be the root for all of these races.

My big problem with the orcs was just keeping my fan project stuff from bleeding through...

And yeah, on the hobgoblins it's intentionally getting into potential grey. Molthrune was heavy on the mind when doing them. I can't help but thing the Abadar-model is being put to use there, but if one can get the backing of a nation like Lastwall...

chavamana wrote:

I know that for a half-orc PC, Irori gave her character the balance and stability that she needed after being raised for the first 8-10 years in the Hold of Belkzen.

Probably not a standard choice for orcs, but I can see a LG temple to Irori being very good for the trouble cases.

I love Irori for this kind of stuff. :) But yeah, I was just listing "most likely" as I figured it, but any can potentially work really.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblins On A Boat

OH GOD. :D Awesome. A danger to themselves and others, but awesome. :)

Now I can't help but imagine the Grey Fleets putting them to use somehow...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Set wrote:
I would have gone with ... junkyard salvager

Y'know, goblins seem to have a tendency to gravitate towards this in a lot of settings where they're more accepted.

That and pawn shop owners...

And now I really want to use that Gorum-company-in-Mendev idea.

mearrin69 wrote:

This is great. In our Runelords game one of the players (cleric of Sarenrae) has "adopted" a goblin baby from Thistletop. It was living with Father Zantus at the church in Sandpoint but she's gone and gotten herself land and a title at this point so now she has some folks taking care of it in a commune she set up south of the town. I suspect she'd be interested, someday, in setting up an orphanage for wayward creatures (at least those who also like fire).

M

The Sarenraean cleric in my party probably wishes he had gotten his goblin that young.

Now they have an overzealous "goblin pope" leading a small Dawnflower cult tagging along with the rest of their followers. They're really trying to keep them in Kaer Maga and out of Korvosa since one is made of stone and one is made of wood... ;)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Bugbears

Recommended Deities: Desna, Sarenrae, Pharasma, Erastil
Recommended Environment: Isolated-Rural

Bugbears are the most difficult and dangerous of the goblinoid races to uplift. Their size, strength, and in-born killer instinct make raising such a child among others an extremely risky proposition, however their lack of a natural pull towards any societal structure provides a fairly safe option.

It is highly advised that such children are raised alone, or in very small groups, by a small number of guardians. Druids and rangers living near or entirely away from other humanoid settlements tend to have the highest rate of success. Bugbears take to hunting quite handily, and with the proper guidance on what is and is not appropriate to hunt, one can easily become a productive provider or guardian for any settlement that would accept them. Bringing a young bugbear to any such environment should only come after a stable developmental period with their caregivers. The child must be raised to see himself and others as people, rather than hunter and prey.

Sadly, it should be noted that sociopathic behavior is far more common amongst bugbears than in many other races. Any caretaker of a bugbear child should be trained to identify such behavior early on, or to maintain the aid of one who can. From there it can be determined what aid, be it psychological, spiritual, or magical, is necessary to ensure the child will be able to function safely within, or atleast alongside, society.

Of special note is a disturbing trend which is highly discouraged: Some caretakers have sought to channel the sociopathic urges towards focused violence and what they believe to be positive ends. Rumors abound of a Sarenraen adopter in Absalom having raised a bugbear as a so-called "serial killer killer", which the mainstream church of Sarenrae has denounced as a heresy of the highest order.

Desna and Erastil seem to be the most popular deities among such bugbears, as they take easily to former's professed way of living and the latter provides a stable, positive outlook connected to a skill that comes naturally to them. Pharasma has also proven important to many caregivers, with her understanding and respect for death and its consequences, an important facet of life that must be driven home with any bugbear child.

(caregivers/caretakers....is that like flammable/inflammable?)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oliver Twist.
This, and Perdido series.

New age dawns upon Golarion.

Regards,
Ruemere

Osirion

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mikaze wrote:
Rumors abound of a Sarenraen adopter in Absalom having raised a bugbear as a so-called "serial killer killer", which the mainstream church of Sarenrae has denounced as a heresy of the highest order.

Ooh, a Bugbear 'Dexter.' Freaky.

I like that you've pretty much admitted from the start that bugbears don't 'civilize' well, and it's an uphill struggle from the start. They seem far more 'naturally vicious' than many of the other humanoid races.

I'm not really thrilled with the 'good Drow are white, bad Drow are black' trope either, but that's what we've had since Greyhawk, which counter-balanced it by having the nastiest human population a group of Sueloise white supremacists (who thought nothing of forced breeding programs between darker-skinned humans and *apes,* to make more useful slaves) in the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Back in the day, pre-Golarion, my 'out' to take the 'black is bad' out of Drow was to rule that all elves, over a few generations, adapt to the light level of their surroundings, in a way exactly the opposite of humans. Those who dwell in the sun-bleached mountain fortresses of the Gray Elves are pale, pale, pale. Those who dwell in the shadier low lands, the High Elves, are 'normal' skin tone. Those who dwell in the forests, the Wood Elves, are darker still, with those who dwell in the darkest, most inaccesable areas, the Grugach, described in their write-ups as 'nut-brown' in color. The Aquatic Elves, deep beneath the waters, are varying shades of blue or green, as suits the color of light that reaches them, and the Drow are as dark as the endless night that surrounds them in the Underdark.

No 'color racism' at all, just the base elven breed adapting to the light levels around them.

If a new elven sub-species is developed that lives in the frozen north, they'd probably be snow-pale, while one that lives in the elemental plane of fire, would be as red as embers.

So, basically, they'd 'tan' in reverse, bleaching out in high sun and darkening in darker surroundings (perhaps to absorb more of the surrounding light / radiation, because their bodies need it somehow? perhaps just because they're elves, not humans...).

That would actually be kinda cool for Golarion. Instead of 'Drow' being automatically outed when they convert to demon-worship, they remain their normal coloration, and can exist within Kyonin undiscovered for some time, if they don't flip out and cause trouble and give themselves away in some bloody, brutal and / or spectacular fashion (which is not uncommon). As they are accepted by the demon-cults, and move underground, over decades, their skin darkens (and, before that happens, they may be cultivated to live 'between worlds' and work as a spy or agent provacateur). If one born a Drow spends a few decades 'bleaching' herself by continual exposure to light sources, 24/7, she can more readily infiltrate uncorrupted elven society, as her coloration adjusts to a paler shade...

I'm liking this idea more and more, since it allows for some Drow 'fifth column' living openly in Kyonin, keeping their noses clean, and reporting to the undercities through 'carrier bat' or Quasit Express or whatever.

Contributor

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mdt wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin Whalers

I know that was sort of tongue in cheek... but I'm so stealing that for my homebrew. :)

It makes so much sense, you can put twice as many goblins on a ship as you can humans, even a few more than halflings (they're smaller than halflings). They eat anything edible and don't complain, and they enjoy hacking up the whales.

Put a humanoid crew in charge of actually harpooning and running the boat, send the goblins out on the actual skiffs, and you've got a very good synergy.

Since it looks like folk are going to run with it, here's some flavor/color for your goblin whaling vessel when the players run into it:

“What Do We Do on a Goblin Whaler?”
(to tune of “Drunken Sailor”)

Intro:

What do we do on a goblin whaler,
What do we do on a goblin whaler,
What do we do on a goblin whaler,
Earl-aye in the morning?

Chorus:

Weigh heigh and up she rises
Weigh heigh and up she rises
Weigh heigh and up she rises
Earl-aye in the morning

Middle verses:

1. Slash up Moby* with a doggie slicer,(x3)
2. Cut the kraken into calamari,(x3)
3. Boil dragon turtle for goblin chowder, (x3)
4. Strangle Cecil** with a pretty necktie***, (x3)

Ending Chorus:

That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
Earl-aye in the morning

* Goblin nickname for all whales.
** Goblin nickname for all sea serpents.
*** Noose made of bowline.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'ma just leave this here...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Damn my work image-blockin'.

Does anyone have any ideas on troglodytes? That one is just striking me as requiring a fairly awkward setup.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

“What Do We Do on a Goblin Whaler?”

(to tune of “Drunken Sailor”)

I was completely won over with Cecil. :D

ruemere wrote:

Oliver Twist.

This, and Perdido series.

New age dawns upon Golarion.

All it takes is a hero! :)

Can't help but wonder if Kaer Maga might serve as a model for such a future, albiet one with very lax morality that idealistic folks will want to improve upon, for better or worse.

On the one hand, a lot of bad stuff really does go down there, but it is a viable safe haven for those, human or decidedly not human, that no one else seems to want and who don't seek to harm others.

Set wrote:

They seem far more 'naturally vicious' than many of the other humanoid races.

....

Back in the day, pre-Golarion, my 'out' to take the 'black is bad' out of Drow was to rule that all elves, over a few generations, adapt to the light level of their surroundings, in a way exactly the opposite of humans.

Yeah, it's hard to find a characterization for bugbears in the setting beyond "serial killer bogeyman". ;)

And on your approach to elves, there's actually precedent for it working that way in Golarion! When I asked James Jacobs about fey being "morphic" in accordance to their environment and neighboring peoples, he said elves work pretty much the same way, albiet to a lesser extent.

Just crank up that aspect, and it falls into line with your approach pretty quickly! And drow infiltration in Kyonin would actually go a long way towards explaining some of the xenophobia and unsavory attitudes rampant in the area(like genocide being on the table as an option for dealing with a community of mostly neutral druids in a neighboring land, this coming from a supposedly CG-leaning country).

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