He is a holy warrior in a world where most disputes are still settled with steel. He fights the darkness in dungeons and men's hearts every day.
Sorry, but reading this part of the post explicitly just reminded me of this. I think Seelah solidifies both of our points here: bringing up the sex life of a paladin is inconsequential because they are massive dorks.
One thing people should keep in mind about casual sex.
Birth control and a social safety net did not exist unti lrecent times so if a woman got pregnant out of marriage she had very few option beside poverty and starvation..So if you are a good character and are sleeping around , what are you going to do if you get some bar maid pregnant? Let her starve or becomea prostituit? Let her live I shame and you child belabeled a bastard?
One thing people should keep in mind about casual sex.
Birth control and a social safety net did not exist unti lrecent times so if a woman got pregnant out of marriage she had very few option beside poverty and starvation..So if you are a good character and are sleeping around , what are you going to do if you get some bar maid pregnant? Let her starve or becomea prostituit? Let her live I shame and you child belabeled a bastard?Good thing Golarion isn't earth, and stuff like magic is quite common.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bachelor %20snuff
There's also night tea, if you don't want to be golden. Or sleeping with someone who will become so.
I can't believe I'm typing this, but: Having consensual sex with another adult is not against the paladin's code of conduct.
If the player puts a heavy emphasis on having and enjoying sex in his character portrayal and doesn't seem particularly interested in Iomedae's dogma then I'd (politely) suggest that he might be better served by worshiping a deity that puts more of an emphasis on sex and the positive aspects of sex - Arshea might be a good fit.
Iomedae is a major and popular deity while Arshea is less well-known (among players, not necessarily true in Golarion), it may be that he simply picked Iomedae because she's more or less the "default" paladin deity.
One thing people should keep in mind about casual sex.
Birth control and a social safety net did not exist unti lrecent times so if a woman got pregnant out of marriage she had very few option beside poverty and starvation..So if you are a good character and are sleeping around , what are you going to do if you get some bar maid pregnant? Let her starve or becomea prostituit? Let her live I shame and you child belabeled a bastard?
This is untrue. The Roman's had Silphium plant which they drove into extinction, partially because they used it as birth control. Birth control existed nealry 2000 years ago.
Not to mention in setting that drugs and magic exist exactly to prevent pregnancy.
Didn't James Jacobs state somewhere that the greatest drawback of the Paladin was the overly restrictive alignment requirement?No... he stated that the greatest drawback of the Paladin was the proliferation of "Will the Paladin fall if ...." threads and discussions like this one.
No one ever asks a flying f@!! on these issues for LG magicians, fighters, or even clerics!
Those are pretty much the same thing, you know. Overly restrictive alignment interpretations are what lead to "Will a paladin if he sneezes?" discussions.
The main reason Paladins are at the center of alignment talk is that they're in a much narrower place, alignment wise. A class that approaches alignment as "Must always be Lawful Good, and never commit an evil act or else you lose almost all class features" is going to run into a lot more alignment issues than classes that have no mechanical stake in alignment. Even the Cleric is fine as long as he stays within one step of his deity.
One thing people should keep in mind about casual sex.
Birth control and a social safety net did not exist unti lrecent times so if a woman got pregnant out of marriage she had very few option beside poverty and starvation..So if you are a good character and are sleeping around , what are you going to do if you get some bar maid pregnant? Let her starve or becomea prostituit? Let her live I shame and you child belabeled a bastard?Good thing Golarion isn't earth, and stuff like magic is quite common.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bachelor %20snuff
But how many People can really afford something magic? Remeber your average adventeurer is in the top1% as far as income is and your average batmaid is not.
We think condoms as dirt cheap but may sex workers in third world countries dont use them because they cost too much.Yes, you can alway say we have something magic for that if you like, heck you can have the magical equivilent of cars, Cable TVs, and plumbingif you like.I prefer a ore traditional fantaseygworld though
I'd like to think there's a middle ground between "NO BIRTH CONTROL" and "MY FANTASY WORLD HAS CABLE TV AND FLYING CARS"...
Neither Night Tea nor Bachelor Snuff are magical. Bachelor Snuff costs 1 gp a dose and so could get expensive if used extensively, but it's essentially the equivalent of a condom - it's not really meant to be used over time. Night Tea is more or less the Golarion equivalent of the pill. One month's supply would cost 3 gp. IE your average barmaid can easily afford it, people who are poor or destitute will most likely not.
While we're on the topic, it's worth noting that neither drug actually does anything to hinder the spread of STDs.
...Oh good lord, I just imagined a Sarenrae-funded sex ed class. With Erastil protesters outside loudly arguing that abstinence is the only real way to remain pure until marriage and you're all teaching SIN to the youngsters.
Birth control has existed since antiquity, one example is Angel Root, which was used in Europe to treat upset stomachs and in Egypt to carry out abortions.
Considering Pathfinder's base universe is essentially real world Dark Ages, you can make all kinds of parallels between the two.
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While we're on the topic, it's worth noting that neither drug actually does anything to hinder the spread of STDs.
To be fair, Paladins are immune to disease. They should care about the wellbeing of their partner of course, so...
NPC: "I meant to tell you before, but... I have syph-"
7th Level Nice Guy: *Mercy* "I've got a dungeon to crawl in two hours. I'll do a sending sometime if I'm on the Prime Material. Catch ya later."
personal opinion: for paladins, sex is not punishable by fall under all but the most extreme circumstances, such as breaking a vow of celibacy or a similar tenet of their deity, rape, or multiple instances of crazy depraved stuff; i'm talking things that would make hedonismbot blush, since i'm not going to judge too harshly if someone in the clergy has an odd fetish (a novel concept, i'm sure).
long as they're up front, honest, treat their partners well, and continue fighting the good fight when on-duty, i don't care if they drink themselves into a stupor at every other opportunity. everyone needs stress relief somehow or you will work yourself to insanity or death, especially when you see the kind of daily horrors that a paladin would.
this is all obviously assuming that their deity doesn't have a taboo on sexual conduct.
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also, a small note: provided said brothel was working under the law (oldest profession and not all countries are hyper-repressed) and all the workers were there by choice, a paladin would be the BEST patron for a brothel. they're almost guaranteed to pay well, treat their partner(s) kindly and considerately, and their partner(s) would leave with less diseases than they started with (if any). they can also relieve fatigue with a touch, which would have a great many uses in such encounters.
even if they don't partake personally, they could walk through and high five (lay on hand/mercy) the patrons and workers and everyone would be all the happier for it.
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just my 2 copper on the subject.
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In fact she has antipaladins.Calistrae is CN, she has no Paladins.I like the idea of the Paladin being passed off between goddesses, but are you sure that Shelyn is the right one? Shelyn is all about inner and outer beauty, and is more about "love where you will" than promiscuity. Shelyn worshippers are about love and affection more than lust. I was thinking Calistrae might be more appropriate...
As for the whole one night stand thing... so long as it is consensual and honest, it could actually add elements of richness to a class that is often seen as stodgy and one-dimensional. I like the idea of a ladies man Paladin, so long as he's not a liar and takes care of his responsibilities.
Hmm
First of all, an Antipaladin of Callistria sounds TERRIFYING and quite possibly EXTREMELY ATTRACTIVE.
Second of all, as someone who actually plays a Paladin of Shelyn, I gotta say that having a lot of casual sex doesn't sound like it's something she necessarily approves of (the paladin and the goddess). From the reading I've done, Shelyn seems even more marriage-focused than Erastil in her love aspect. Or at least, she discourages lust and encourages True Love™. That isn't to say that fer faith would condemn polyamory, but I think it frowns on having a lot of casual sex for fun and not romance. At least if you're going to be a Paladin.
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All I have to say on the matter in what little time I have at the moment is:
Yes, a paladin may find a night's pleasure with someone whose life they are only passing through. But such a paladin must be upfront about their motives and be certain all involved understand and consent to whatever they are doing.
And they should also seek to leave their partners better off afterwards than they were before that night.
For example, there is this lovely married couple in Sothis whose relationship had become somewhat stagnant before hiring my services. After a few-oh my, look at the time!
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First of all, an Antipaladin of Callistria sounds TERRIFYING and quite possibly EXTREMELY ATTRACTIVE.
I think a Calistrian Antipaladin is actually the least terrifying and most . . . well, honorable. Here's her code:
- My life is my path, none shall sway me from it.
- I devote myself to the pursuit of my pleasures.
- I take what I desire, by trick or by force. If others resent my actions, they may try to take vengeance against me.
- All slights against me will be repaid tenfold.
- I am the instrument of my own justice. If I am wrong, I will take vengeance with my own hands.
Seems like if you just mind your own business, Calistrian antipaladins aren't the worst sort. I could even see them working in a party. What boggled my mind, though, was that Calistria got an antipaladin write up but Gorum didn't. GORUM! I mean, come on! (Also why I am not a huge fan of "one step away" - it just doesn't make sense a lot of the time.)
Also, I second the vote for Arshae. Arshae is way more up this guy's ally.
From a lore standpoint Imodea and the whole temperance thing would suggest this is intemperance not that you need to "make him fall for it." But if you want it to be against his code the two of you should talk.
Paladins are pulled form the classic chaste knight ideal so in a generic sense I would suggest that one night stands violate that trope. Granted though in those stories there was a unified culturally shared morality. In our modern context as well as Golorian there is a much greater degree of pluralism.
As for "holy warriors who fail." I think it is interesting Sampson from the bible who gained strength from his hair (symbol of his nazarite vows) violated his code all the time. He was not supposed to drink, but was a drunkard, he was never to be around a corpse but did a fair bit of killing and ate honey from a bee hive that formed in a lions corpse, married foreign women (something proscribed for him not to do). Through all of this his strength remained despite his violation of his code. His strength left him when he shared that his strength came from his hair and his enemies cut it. Cutting his hair was pretty much the last aspect of the code for him to break. Later after the cut out his eyes and made him a prisoner he prayed and got his strength back so that he could knock down the building on his enemies and himself.
Falling Paladins I find sometimes to be too much perfection of failure rather than opportunity to rp and grow. It is a balance because the alignment of the Paladin has always been one of the limits imposed on his power (though I think that for awhile they have not been the superpower they were in previous editions).
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A lot of the drama and religious taboos from our world used to come from unwanted children, before contraceptives became common.
Yes, they have existed since antiquity. But what good are they when 0.05 % of the population has them ?
Okay, now this is Golarion, and let's imagine 20 % of the population has them. This still is not good behaviour to spread unwanted children around, and if you are a Paladin, then you definitely should worry about feeding them.
I think this is okay for him, if he lowers is Wealth by Level by 1 level / child.
What boggled my mind, though, was that Calistria got an antipaladin write up but Gorum didn't. GORUM! I mean, come on!
Gorum did. They just didn't put the Gorumite Anit-paladin code in Inner Sea Gods for some reason. If you pick up a copy of Faiths of Balance, they have Gorum's Anti-paladin code there. Unless it's in Faiths of Corruption. I know it is in one or the other of those.
As to the OP...Well, while I don't like the idea of a man-slut Paladin; as others have stated, as long as there is informed consent (and he has a plan for the all but inevitable pregnancy{s}) no harm no foul.
Really, a Paladin who thinks for half a second about how to make this fun and safe for him and his partner will have zero issues. Birth control is cheap on an adventurer's budget, disease is no problemo, and you'll be drowning in wenches if you actually treat them like people as opposed to how the typical fantasy bar patron treats a woman.
This is one of those things where bad-DM horror stories have scared people into wondering if a Paladin can fall for putting his pants on backwards. "S-s-sounds chaotic!"
Cheap for some, but how available should it be? From whom? The local pesh addict?
Who says it is fail proof?
An alchemist, probably.
Unless the statblock lists a failure rate or you houserule it to be 50% effective because you hate life, then it always works.
Prestidigitation is good for cleaning, especially stains and spills...
It would require line of sight and line of effect (snort), but I'd say there's at least an hour-long window where it would prevent any problems other than disease.
I don't see anything wrong with casual sex. As long as it doesn't go against his tenets of his faith. If for what ever reason it does then he need to find something else to do with his free time.
As for me I am playing a Paladin or Torag who loves to get drunk every night. With friends is better but alone is fine. And we have a Cleric of the god i don't remember but is all for sex and stuff. So shes more or less a prostitute. So when the feeling hits me, if she will have me i sleep with her that night. We have it all worked out that's its just sex between us. Tho we might be good friends too. She sleeps with well just about anyone and i will from time to time sleep with others as well and neither of us mind. And i see no reason why i should fall from grace for this relationship either. It works out for both our benefits. Tho its hard to stay stocked up in boose but i do my best. If i need to bring a cart full of kegs then i do.
Sounds like this guy might be happier as a paladin of Shelyn instead.That could actually be your solution. Have him being "passed on" from one Goddess to the next, as a parallel to his worldly behaviour.I'm going to add to the chorus to say you might encourage him to become a paladin of Shelyn. She seems way more in line for what he wants to play.
Of course, the problem also is that this is RotRL, and it treats 'lust' as being something "sinful", so . . .
I do believe that what we know as "the seven deadly sins" were known as "the seven virtues of rulership" in Thassilon, so there is some duality there.
Tangentially ... the only reason I can see for giving an unwanted (by the player) pregnancy or an STD would be if the player wants to retire his character.
I do believe that what we know as "the seven deadly sins" were known as "the seven virtues of rulership" in Thassilon, so there is some duality there.Sounds like this guy might be happier as a paladin of Shelyn instead.That could actually be your solution. Have him being "passed on" from one Goddess to the next, as a parallel to his worldly behaviour.I'm going to add to the chorus to say you might encourage him to become a paladin of Shelyn. She seems way more in line for what he wants to play.
Of course, the problem also is that this is RotRL, and it treats 'lust' as being something "sinful", so . . .
True, "Lust" is the subversion of the virtue Fertility. Then again, Fertility being a virtue and Lust being a sin could be argued to imply that sex is primarily meant for procreation rather than recreation... Truth be told I find the Thassilonian take on virtues and sins a little troubling.
Tangentially ... the only reason I can see for giving an unwanted (by the player) pregnancy or an STD would be if the player wants to retire his character.
I think Zhayne raises a fair point. Very few things can throw your campaign (or your life, for that matter) for a loop like an unexpected pregnancy. I'd be very careful to introduce an element like that without talking it over with the player first.
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True, "Lust" is the subversion of the virtue Fertility. Then again, Fertility being a virtue and Lust being a sin could be argued to imply that sex is primarily meant for procreation rather than recreation... Truth be told I find the Thassilonian take on virtues and sins a little troubling.Of course, the problem also is that this is RotRL, and it treats 'lust' as being something "sinful", so . . .I do believe that what we know as "the seven deadly sins" were known as "the seven virtues of rulership" in Thassilon, so there is some duality there.
It's only troubling if the Thassilonian take on virtues and sins are in fact in line with the objective good/evil morality. If virtues and sins are defined culturally, then it makes perfect sense - that's the historical Christian take on sex. Not necessarily the best take, but not a particularly bad one unless you are zealous about punishing "sinners."
Though here's another layer. A nun once told me that the sin of Lust is not at its heart about sexual desire, but about objectification. You commit the sin when you see another person as something to be used for your benefit or gratification. As the singer Jewel put it, "It's not what I can do for anybody else, it's what their body can do for me." Or as previously mentioned on this thread:
In order to be genuinely good-- when you're engaging in close interactions with others-- you have to acknowledge and treat your partners, liaisons, etc, as living, breathing, sentient, feeling beings-- not as objects. You have to acknowledge them as people who matter, not as disposable, interchangeable parts. Or, to put it in slightly species-ist terms-- you have to acknowledge and respect their humanity, and always treat them as people-- in Kantian terms, as ends in and of themselves, not solely as means to an end.
This does not preclude one-night stands and casual affairs... it just places some strong considerations in how you conduct such affairs and interludes. Also, a Paladin can completely fail at this in his/her interactions with others without it involving sex or romance at all. It's a pretty general consideration Paladins (and other good characters) ought to be at least somewhat concerned with any time they interact with others (outside of the necessities for harsher treatment on the battlefield).
Given how generally sex-positive Golarion is, I expect this would be the typical take on Lust as a sin. Good characters care for their partners, whether in a long-term committed relationship or a casual encounter.
It's only troubling if the Thassilonian take on virtues and sins are in fact in line with the objective good/evil morality. If virtues and sins are defined culturally, then it makes perfect sense - that's the historical Christian take on sex. Not necessarily the best take, but not a particularly bad one unless you are zealous about punishing "sinners."
That's not quite what I meant by the last comment, but in hindsight I definitely could have made that more clear: I'm not sure I buy the idea that the pre-sin lord Thassilonian Empire was entirely benevolent. It's essentially a benevolent dictatorship, which tend to worry me even when they work as intended.
I did a little more digging and find that later references to Thassilon refer to the Lust counterpoint as Love, while an early blog post by JJ refer to it as Fertility.
IE your mileage may vary.
@Kudaku
Unfortunately the seven virtues of rule have changed in the AE and now it's love and not fertility.
Xin's idea was to base an empire (actually the ruling of an empire) on the same principles he has based his form of arcane magic and those principles are the seven virtues of rule. Keep in mind that at the time all that Xin had to base his empire were himself, his disciples, any azlanti who had followed him and the savage humans (mostly shaonti and varissans). In addition the reason he wanted to make his own empire were (at least partly) because he was so sick with the way that things worked back in Azlant, he wanted to create a more free nation, a more thinking nation etc.
The fact that he also ended up being slightly controlled by aboleths, growing so paranoid that he ended up living alone with his clockworks, being assasinated by his students who took his seven virtue of rule and corrupted/twisted and turned them into the seven sins of rule is another matter altogether.
I think this really boils down to what his tenets are or what he believes in. That should dictate what he thinks of casual one night stands. Or if hes following more of a chased pliosphie(sorry i cant spell to save my life). From what i have heard about the god he servers he would or should be more of the chased viriaty. So i would have a talk with the player and see what his tenets are and go from there. This will help with all other aspects of him possible falling as well.
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I'm not familiar with the history of Thassilon (it does sound unfortunate) so I was just speculating on the meaning of virtue and sin and how they relate to culture vs objective morality in Golarion or home settings.
Some people (myself included) intuitively want to equate virtue and sin with good and evil but that doesn't leave us a lot of space to discuss culturally relative values in an objective morality world. And culturally relative values should exist - it keeps things interesting. Some cultures would find a vow of celibacy highly virtuous, while others might believe it is a person's duty to procreate, and others might consider even non-procreative sex to be sacred. None of these views are inherently good or evil, though they can be practiced in good or evil ways.
"Honour" is another concept that is culturally variable - which is important to the paladin because he is required to be "honourable" as defined by his culture in addition to being LG as defined by absolute morality. Casual sex is not inconsistent with LG as long as you respect your partners. It might be culturally dishonourable.
Does the so called cuddle hormone Oxytocin exist in Pathfinder I wonder? and can Paladin negate it effect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
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Regarding the slaughtering of young goblins thing. Aren't Goblins in Golorian irredeemably evil (though comical)? This kind of thing was a given until RA Salvatore starting writing gray areas into every "evil" race in the Realms.
Also, why do we get to kill young red dragons then? Shouldn't we be running around trying to rescue them from bad upbringings as well?