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They do save a bit of money not writing down spells in their spellbooks that they don't have and will never get destroyed, so I guess you can say they also have increased retain-ability of spellcasting under adverse circumstances compared to the average wizard.
I mean, sure a Cleric can anger his god and not get granted spells (or I guess an atheist cleric can anger his... ideals?) but that means literally causing a divine force to revoke your spellcasting.
The wizard on the other hand only needs to accidentally put the rogue in it's fireball and the entire next day "Are you sure you haven't seen my spellbook?"
Rolls bluff... "Of course, why do you keep asking?"
Eh, from my experience, rogues of 2nd level or higher can usually make those reflex saves and take nothing. If anything, the rogue should be thanking the wizard for the free tan. Now, were it Confusion's area, this becomes a different story.
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They do save a bit of money not writing down spells in their spellbooks that they don't have and will never get destroyed, so I guess you can say they also have increased retain-ability of spellcasting under adverse circumstances compared to the average wizard.
I mean, sure a Cleric can anger his god and not get granted spells (or I guess an atheist cleric can anger his... ideals?) but that means literally causing a divine force to revoke your spellcasting.
The wizard on the other hand only needs to accidentally put the rogue in it's fireball and the entire next day "Are you sure you haven't seen my spellbook?"
Rolls bluff... "Of course, why do you keep asking?"
I think the rest of the party would end up killing the rogue before letting that fly.... seeing as wizard is probably 100x more useful...
Having played a cleric, I now prefer Oracles. With an Oracle I can go days without casting a particular remedy, but then cast it 4 times on the day it is needed.
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i was comparing to the wizard's spell list
I just want a cleric that can blast stuff.
And have more flavorful spells like a cleric's version of Mage's Magnificent Mansion that creates a planar temple.
1) Comparing any spell list to the wizard's will leave you disappointed. The only thing a wizard really has is a spell list, so it's the best by default.
2) The cleric's MO isn't really "blast stuff". That's been the arcane niche since the dawn of DnD. If you really want to blast as a cleric, pick domains that grant you access to some blasting, like fire.
3) Create Demiplane. That's exactly what you want. Throw around some hallow, consecrate, and forbiddance to really beef up your "planar temple".
As has been stated by multiple posters here, the cleric list is very good (played one 1 to 20), you just have to know how to apply the different spells. There's at least one "bread-n-butter" spell of each level, they just won't all do the same thing. For example: command, blindness, dispel magic.
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Having played a cleric, I now prefer Oracles. With an Oracle I can go days without casting a particular remedy, but then cast it 4 times on the day it is needed.
And not be able to cast it at all if you didn't pick the appropriate remedy.
I like my OPEN slots.
Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.
Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Staple level 3 spells: dispel magic, invisibility purge, magic circle, magic vestment, meld into stone, prayer, communal resist energy, speak with dead, stone shape, wind wall. Seriously you could do a lot worse than spamming magic circle on everyone in the party.
Staple level 7 spells: holy word and its ilk, destruction, repulsion, greater restoration, greater scrying, waves of ecstasy. The summon monster VII list is also really good.
I think the best part about Miracle as opposed to Wish is that if you're really RPing well, your DM is almost forced to go along with your desires or he's just crapping all over the only player who's actually in-character.
Why would that player be the "only" player in character, and being in character does not mean the deity just cooperates. It also opens up the idea of an equally devoted NPC being able to do bad things to the party.
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Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
Oh man all 4th level or higher. -_- Much excitement.
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Oh man all 4th level or higher. -_- Much excitement.Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
Seems appropriate that calling down the direct wrath of your god is a higher level ability, though I do think there needs to be a level one light damage ray, like a toned down searing light. Or really any level 1 damage spell.
Seems appropriate that calling down the direct wrath of your god is a higher level ability, though I do think there needs to be a level one light damage ray, like a toned down searing light. Or really any level 1 damage spell.Oh man all 4th level or higher. -_- Much excitement.Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
I don't think you can get much more toned down than Searing Light. It's a pretty mediocre spell.
Wizards get burning hands and magic missile at 1.
Druids gets produce flame by 1 and flaming sphere by 2.
The cleric list lacks fun blasting. Doesn't make it bad though, but not everyone wants God to work in mysterious ways.
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I don't think you can get much more toned down than Searing Light. It's a pretty mediocre spell.Seems appropriate that calling down the direct wrath of your god is a higher level ability, though I do think there needs to be a level one light damage ray, like a toned down searing light. Or really any level 1 damage spell.Oh man all 4th level or higher. -_- Much excitement.Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
As an example: short range, no extra damage for undead/vulnerable to light, no effect on constructs or objects, and caps at CL5. Mostly useful for weak damage ray you can use in your 1st level slots, but in no way set to trump any other caster's level 1 blast spells. It may be mediocre, but it's an option that wouldn't be unbalancing.
EDIT: Maybe change the damage dice too. 1d6 per 2 levels, or 1d4/level. Mostly looking at the level 1 effect of a 1d8 untyped ray, and it seems a bit much. Maybe just make it a melee touch spell.
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At least the clerics don't get claws as their domain ability in a kajillion slots like sorcerers do, and when they do they have a 3/4 BAB so they can be built to get some use out of it. Most domain abilities are fairly useful, some are even full-on class features (like animal companions) and by default you get two. So, in essence, the spell list is supporting a shell that gets:
3/4 BAB
Channel Energy (and any variants that might be chosen)
Good Fort, Good Will
Two Domains, their abilities, and their bonus spells
Medium armor proficiency and shields (can use heavy)
Free weapon proficiency in deity's weapon
Free conversion of spells into cure/inflict
Ability to leave spell slots open and fill them later
Take that shell, let it have the wizard list (I guess without the arcane failure chance for armor) and damn. I don't think people would play anything else.
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At least the clerics don't get claws as their domain ability in a kajillion slots like sorcerers do, and when they do they have a 3/4 BAB so they can be built to get some use out of it. Most domain abilities are fairly useful, some are even full-on class features (like animal companions) and by default you get two. So, in essence, the spell list is supporting a shell that gets:
3/4 BAB
Channel Energy (and any variants that might be chosen)
Good Fort, Good Will
Two Domains, their abilities, and their bonus spells
Medium armor proficiency and shields (can use heavy)
Free weapon proficiency in deity's weapon
Free conversion of spells into cure/inflict
Ability to leave spell slots open and fill them laterTake that shell, let it have the wizard list (I guess without the arcane failure chance for armor) and damn. I don't think people would play anything else.
They don't need anything like the full wizard spell list. Rather, I would like to see it structured so that domains drive spell selection similar to the way that wizards have schools. Would keep the same relative amount of power they have now while allowing for greater options in character concepts that are backed up in actual play.
At least the clerics don't get claws as their domain ability in a kajillion slots like sorcerers do, and when they do they have a 3/4 BAB so they can be built to get some use out of it.
I dont get it either, but those claws are very popular. To each their own.
At least the clerics don't get claws as their domain ability in a kajillion slots like sorcerers do, and when they do they have a 3/4 BAB so they can be built to get some use out of it.I dont get it either, but those claws are very popular. To each their own.
Same here, I dislike the mediocrity of sorc. claw attacks for most bloodlines, but people have made builds for it and all, I'm sure. I'll stick to the stuff that's, you know, actually magical.
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One more comment....
The theologian is a wildcard in this conversation because through domain spell lists a cleric can be "not boring". It becomes very easy for a cleric to become a blaster with that dull list because of fire domain. Darkness enables a masterful battlefield controller and so on. Just need a domain that has a lot of spells that are not on cleric list.
Yeah, Theologian can be pretty sweet. I just rolled up a fun Fire domain cleric of Sarenrae doing Dervish Dance stuff and using the War Blessing feat to get the Fire blessing and then one other one (Glory is nice for the psanctuary [hehe, the p as in pseudo cuz... yeah...]) and then energy channel to add +8 to damage for the next three attacks as a swift action.
Then of course you're throwing out Fireball at +2 caster level and can prepare them in non-domain slots, and since this character is a test for an e8 campaign I might run they can hit up 10d6 AND since I grabbed Intensified Spell with the Beacon of Faith trait I can put that at 12d6 once per day. Not so terrifying, but it's more flavor than anything. Cleansing the world with holy fire seems a-ok to me.
So I'm not the only one who feels that 7th level spells are mostly "meh". Yes, you do get summon monster, but a fair number are things like resurrection, which, although powerful, are not spells you normally carry.
Whoah, whoah... since when is Destruction a "meh" spell?
Nothing says "run in terror" than obliterating someone such that they can only be brought back by 9th level spells.
Quickened Deadly Juggernaut before you charge a weakened foe...
Quickened Extended Spiritual Weapon at the start of a fight...
Stilled Harm on a foe who's grappling you...
Extended Heroes Feast for a 24 hour party buff...
Now... any class who has access to the cleric list has 3/4 BAB, can cast spells in armor, has okay weapon proficiencies, domains and/or oracle mysteries, and d8 HD... contrast that to a wizzy or sorc and it's not such a bad deal.
So I'm not the only one who feels that 7th level spells are mostly "meh". Yes, you do get summon monster, but a fair number are things like resurrection, which, although powerful, are not spells you normally carry.Whoah, whoah... since when is Destruction a "meh" spell?
Nothing says "run in terror" than obliterating someone such that they can only be brought back by 9th level spells.
Quickened Deadly Juggernaut before you charge a weakened foe...
Quickened Extended Spiritual Weapon at the start of a fight...
Stilled Harm on a foe who's grappling you...
Extended Heroes Feast for a 24 hour party buff...Now... any class who has access to the cleric list has 3/4 BAB, can cast spells in armor, has okay weapon proficiencies, domains and/or oracle mysteries, and d8 HD... contrast that to a wizzy or sorc and it's not such a bad deal.
That is the problem though...
The Cleric Spell list was made with the CLERIC'S frame in mind. I.E. the war priest guy (not the class, the trope). This is evident in the fact that many of the spells in the cleric's spell list are heals, buffs, and melee touch attacks. They are meant to get in close and hit things. The problem is, this does not work so well with things like the the Eccleisatheurge who is a casty guy... since he is left not able to do much with is spell list.. or oracles who are not the support types (like Dark Tapestry).
The evil spells are pretty good for the cloth type. Good cloth clerics can always go the Angel Summoner route.
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The evil spells are pretty good for the cloth type. Good cloth clerics can always go the Angel Summoner route.
I'm officially an angel summoner in my campaign. Seriously, our melee guys do so much dmg, why bother wasting 3 rounds to buff ,when I can summon an angel as a standard action? (sacred summon+summon good).
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Personally, I kind of thing that Clerics should also get all the Paladin and Inquisitor spells. Some of the biggest issues with the Cleric Spell list is that it was originally a 7th Spell Level list that was stretched out to 9th in 3E. Paizo never fixed it, though they did nerf probably too much of it. The other thing is that pretty much every other caster tends to get a lot of cool new toys when a new book comes out, but Clerics universally get stuck at the end of the lines that hand those out, and basically just get whatever crap is left no one else wanted.
There are a few (very few) exceptions, but like the normal spell lists, they also tend to be the same spells that all Clerics prep regardless of their build, theme, concept, more because most of the other options are less bad.
The problem with Paladin spells being cleric spells is that not all clerics are good. Alot of paladin spells involve being honorable, merciful, or taking the blows for your friends. While clerics can do that sort of thing, it's not really fair to give good clerics a bunch of new spells and then hang neutrals and evils out to dry.
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HAs anyone even looked at the new spells clerics get in the acg?
Over. The. Top.
There always seems to be a heaping helping of theorycrafting served up whenever this topic is discussed on the boards. At the table, everyone seems to be a huge fan of Cleric spells, especially when they receive their benefit directly.
The Cleric spell list is incredibly powerful and effective in actual gameplay. You just have to think carefully, prep appropriately for expected encounters, and manage open slots/consumables well. It takes some finesse, not just brute force.
I thought that Sanctify Weapons was good until I saw that the ACG has given us Align Weapon, Communal. I'll prep that with Reach Spell in a 4th level slot every time.
Life Pact, the Path of Glory line, the Shield of Fortification line, Enchantment Foil, the Spellcrash line, Wall of Blindness(!)...
I need more spell slots.
We can even speak with haunts now.
Most of those are bad. The only really impressive ones to me are the shield of fortification line, wall of blindness (we get it at 5 not 4 like wizards) and align weapon communal.
I don't understand the appeal to wall of blindness. Way too many critters can just walk right through it without giving a single damn.
The cleric and the cleric spell list is very nearly the last thing in the game that needs any buffing whatsoever.
Buffing, no. A bit of reworking to work with more than one specific concept, yes. Right now it doesn't matter what deity you follow or what domains you have, at least 75% of the spells and powers you use will be the exact same ones that every other cleric of any other deity or domain uses. Throw in oracles using the same list, and the problem becomes even bigger; an oracle of most of the mysteries is not going to be able to easily explain why their patrons are giving them spells that have little to nothing to do with their mystery. So while you are correct in that buffing is not necessary, a rewrite that allows for a greater range of concepts to be well supported is.
What's more, unlike most classes the cleric can fill any role you want.
Even with domains, the basic role of the any cleric is going to be mostly the same. There's a little bit of give in terms of melee vs not melee, but other than that, domain powers and spells are the only real variation most clerics will really have, and they count for little. Those that utilize domain channeling instead of positive or negative energy can get a bit more customization, but those limited at best in their usefulness. Even oracles can find that actual customization is a bit difficult at times. A big reason is that while the spell list is powerful, it's highly oriented toward a very specific function and role, and because of the power in it, it's not possible to really enhance the other parts of the class that could increase customization. True support for more than a handful of concepts while using that list will require that the entire list be rewritten to allow for a broader range of ideas.
What are you talking about? Battle Clerics, Pure Support/Buffer, Touch Attack Focus, even Archery could probably work, and they're all rather different stat and feat builds.
Focusing on casting for pretty much anything beyond buffing or summoning is a no go right now. It's less of a problem for the cleric, but a major problem for oracles, where the mysteries have a far greater range of potential concepts, and even for clerics it's problematic. Spell are almost entirely touch, making any kind of ranged magic concept difficult at best and just not possible at worst. They are also almost entirely will save based, meaning that large chunks of the list can be invalidated very quickly unless the DM is consciously not using monsters that would do so. Most of the list is highly situational, which again means that unless the DM is actively finding ways to keep more than a few spells useful, most of the list is going to be pointless. If you like the battle cleric and/or the buff cleric, you're fine, but the second you even think about doing anything else, there's no virtually support for it.
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So my oracle spell list is:
1.)cure light, burning hands, burning disarm, sun metal, murderous command, moment of greatness, shield of faith and Ant Haul (via a page of spell knowledge).
2.) Cure Moderate, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Defending Bone, Silence, Shield Other, and Pilfering Hand.
3.) Cure Serious, Fireball, Archon's Aura, Dispel Magic, Speak With Dead.
Funny, this list seems focused on blasting with fire, dealing with generic obstacles one might face on a dungeon crawl, and providing a variety of support options for melee buffing or debuffing or controlling. I have 5 strength and am a treasure hunting kid.
Cleric Spells I do or wish I could prepare:
1.) Cause Fear, Bane, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Air Bubble, Carrion Compass, Endure Elements, Restore Corpse, Murderous Command.
2.) Aid, Desecrate, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Air Step, Unliving Rage, Animate Dead (Lesser), Darkness, Death Knell/Candle, Death wine, Defending Bone, Desecrate, Early Judgment, Instrument of Agony, Sentry Skull, Lesser Restoration, Silence, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Status, Weapon of Awe.
3.) Greater Stunning Barrier, Align Weapon Communal, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blood Biography, Contagion, Blindness/Deafness, Deadly Juggernaut, Deeper Darkness, Invisibility Purge, Lover's Vengeance, Magic Vestment, Napstack, Prayer, Remove Disease, Locate Object, Magic Circle vs Chaos, Sands of Time, Resist Energy Communal, Speak With Dead, Water of Maddening, Vision of Hell.
Funny, looking at either list I see a lot of variety and clearly different play styles. There are single target and group buffs in each but most of the spells on each list have a very clear theme and none of them were what people expect from a cleric or oracle. I am an oracle and a pure caster. I buff, heal (in-combat specifically and intentionally) and I blast.
I do all three of my jobs pretty well but the blasting is my glaring strength.
My cleric channels mostly. His spells are all utility and debuffs. Even with his relatively low wisdom he successfully casts his spells (probably because his channel carries a long-term save debuff and probably because at low levels cause fear penalizes saves wether you fail or pass the spells DC).
I am positive that another person could whip up equally playable spell lists for another oracle and another cleric and have them each be radically different in scope and capability from the other. Some spells are great staples and are on both lists. Some awesome staple spells are only on one list or neither. However, each spell list clearly is functional, thematic and does what the character was built to do. While that cleric spell list gets super long at level 3, the option to keep open slots available and prepare what is needed when it is needed provided it is not a combat, is to his advantage.
All arguments above regarding limited utility or narrow focus of the cleric list are not carrying much weight at the moment.
You can make blasty clerics but it needs careful domain choice and IMO the Samsaran race to get mystic past life..... but even then youre not really a blaster as such...youre a cleric thats good at blasting.
The cleric spell is supremely functional BUT is needs careful thought to get the best of it. Read the smallprint and use your imagination.
Ive had encounters where I've had Spiritual Ally, Spiritual Weapon and Chain of Perdition all on the go and Ive caused all manner of problems for every single bad guy in the room..... leaving the rest of the party with a very simple job to do.
Another time with Invisibility and Fly on the go from my domains (all whilst with an AC of 39 and spell immunity up)... I did an infinitely better recce job than our rogue could ever do and found out what needed finding out....... leaving the rest of the party with... guess what??....a very simple job to do.
That is the key to being a cleric.... whilst the fighter crits and the wizard fireballs... it is in fact YOU that is instrumental to the party's success.
While I think the cleric certainly works fine as-is, I wouldn't mind seeing Domains being a bit more fleshed out. Clerics are definitely a bit low on class features. Though if you fleshed domains out to the point of being equivalent to something like bloodlines or oracle mysteries, you would probably also have to limit the cleric to only getting one of them.
The cleric and the cleric spell list is very nearly the last thing in the game that needs any buffing whatsoever.
Except that if you look at the cleric's spell list, 90% of it consists of:
Cure/Inflict Spells
Cure X condition spells
res spells
Protection from X spells
Buff melee combat spells
outside of that... the only other option they get are a handful of mediocre blasts and the SM monster line...
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I dont know. I wasnt a fan of 4E, but I think they did really well with the Cleric. They where still the buffer and healer, but they did this by actually contributing directly. They might blast an enemy with a d6 or d8 ray, but if they hit, it would also give everyone a +1 to hit that enemy, or inspire others to fight on a bit more, healing 2 damage or something.
Im still surprized that people still say the Cleric is too strong or whatever, like this is still 3E. While it doesnt need a buff per se, it really does need to be updated to the PF level that almost all other classes have been for years. Domains really need to be reexamined to be more in line with the sort of variety we get with Mysteries, Inquisitions, Bloodlines, Arcana, etc. . . Those 18 - 15ish Dead Levels really need to be filled with class features that allow for Archtypes along the lines of every other class.
I don't think it needs buffing, but it does need significant reworking for variety, so that clerics of different gods aren't all casting the same spells. Clerics of Aphrodite, Apollo, and Poseidon, for example, should not have the same spell lists. That was one thing that 2e did better than any version since, IMO.
Exactly. I want a class that receives power from different sources to reflect that in play. Not have all sources ultimately end up providing the exact same spells the vast majority of the time.
Ahh, but you see, clerics suffer under the stigma of clericzilla, a mythological construct that required 3-5 rounds of buffing and the opponent to not have dispel magic. So they keep repeating this line, convinced it is true.
Yeah, the days of 3.5 CoDzilla have definitely passed. The one part of the martial-caster disparity that the Paizo devs definitely took seriously was the fact that 3.5 featured lots of casters who could out-martial the martial classes.
The cleric side of CoDzilla was mostly resolved just by going to a new edition, though. Most of the really problematic cleric toys came from splat material like Divine Metamagic and the 3.5 version of Persistent spell. Three rounds of buffing was a lot easier to get away with when your buff spells all last 24 hours.