Also just cause it's a prereq doesn't mean they work together. An example is a lot of the combat style feats and a lot of the combat maneuver feats. Combat maneuvers have combat expertise, but that penalty to hit and extra AC doesn't relate to tripping someone.
Quick question in the same vein... So this feat means I can get dex to damage only with the slashing weapon of my choosing, but not to weapons that already fall under the category of a light or one-handed piercing weapon, right?
Which means I can't get dex to damage on the iconic swashbuckler weapon: the rapier, but I can get it on a battle axe or hand axe? That doesn't seem right.
Sorry, didn't see that. Thanks for the link! That's cool that they're doing that, though! +1 to paizo.
It is important to note that Slashing Grace, in the playtest, was intended to be a Swashbuckler feat. In the playtest, all it did was allow you to use one-handed slashing weapons as one-handed piercing weapons for swashbuckler and duelist abilities.
Dex to damage was reportedly added to the feat because it felt too weak to the developers, but its focus was never really changed away from being intended for swashbucklers.
It is important to note that Slashing Grace, in the playtest, was intended to be a Swashbuckler feat. In the playtest, all it did was allow you to use one-handed slashing weapons as one-handed piercing weapons for swashbuckler and duelist abilities.
Dex to damage was reportedly added to the feat because it felt too weak to the developers, but its focus was never really changed away from being intended for swashbucklers.
Well, looks like the only Dex-Based build Paizo approves of is the Swashbuckler as far as the hardcovers are concerned. It's quite a bunch of silly crap, given how much they flopped the ball on the feat.
Considering how broken Strength builds and full casters are these days, it's a bunch of phooey that they're pulling crap like that.
But I am being a goober and expecting Paizo to care about balance, when, given the direction and content of product that they've published so far, they never intended to make the game "balanced."
By this logic a Thunder and Fang user can get Dex to damage with their Earthbreaker
They gotta get Slashing grace for dex to damage. Course the also have to get focus. cause, Martials always need lots and lots of training that is only able to be represented by the feats they picked up.
They gotta get Slashing grace for dex to damage. Course the also have to get focus. cause, Martials always need lots and lots of training that is only able to be represented by the feats they picked up.
...You're being sarcastic, right?
Okay, so you can only get Dex to damage with "heavy" slashing weapons and not light piercing weapons. And they fix that by making an extra feat specifically for the rapier, leaving other things like the trusty short sword in the dust?
Okay, so you can only get Dex to damage with "heavy" slashing weapons and not light piercing weapons. And they fix that by making an extra feat specifically for the rapier, leaving other things like the trusty short sword in the dust?
Yup. Because apparently allowing Dex-based martials is too overpowering compared to the other options that everyone has available to them.
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The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.
You've got to be kidding me. TWF is already feat intensive as it is if you want to be effective with it; tacking on Dexterity only makes it even more so, given Weapon Finesse feat tax, as well as the generic Dervish Dance, or even the Agile property, which isn't in any official hardcover book. It also has a lower scale in comparison to Two-hand + Strength, at the enhanced benefit of a couple stronger combat-related skills, higher Touch AC (general AC will remain mostly unchanged, given MDB limits, depending on how you TWF), and better Reflex Saves.
That's it. That's the big "pay-off" for going Dexterity in offense versus Strength, is a higher subset of AC, a higher saving throw that's occasionally targeted by spells and supernatural effects, and a couple of skills that are decently better in comparison to both subjects that go fully invested into a skill. Did I mention that you also can't carry anything worth a damn because you have at-best a 13 Strength, which carries maybe all of your combat-related equipment?
I'm glad that's super-duper-powerful compared to characters who can get a single statistic as a modifier to their saves for a single feat (even with hefty requirements), something which before required a 2 level dip into a specific class to function, on top of that being stackable with a spell that provides the same effect, since it specifies it works as a separate bonus type, not to mention some of the reach antics Bloodragers can pull, or even the OPness that is the Arcanist.
This whole "We're afraid of granting X the power of Y" theory goes in the toilet when you compare the power levels of what they have allowed in the past, those levels, which were around since the Core was released. It's not a matter of power or balance, as evidenced by the constant threads made on their boards pointing out and infallibly calculating the disparity between Full Progression Spellcasters and Full BAB Martials, or even Martials and Spellcasters amongst themselves, and their constant hardcover splatbooks which only enforce and increase the stated disparity.
It's a matter of perspective and vision when you think about Paizo's design choices; they view Wizards or other full spellcasters as characters whose potentials are almost limitless in what they can do, whereas they view Fighters and Rogues as the every-day, average Joe who works with what their mundane skills can pull them through.
When you look at the game in that light, everything fits into place, and it matches the design values and choices made by Paizo. Notice where Balance is in the grand scheme of things: non-existent. Which, for them, it is how it should be; not a part of their regime.
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I'm not saying the fear is reasonable, but when you look at the current sources of dex to damage, it's armed to see any other desire than to limit two weapon fighting with dex to damage. Dervish dance is limited to one weapon only. Slashing grace and it's yet to be published rapier counterpart are limited to one handed weapons, inflicting larger penalties on twf. Agile weapons are a cash sink that need two +2 weapons to further delay access to it.
Why put so many limitations if not to minimize twf with dex to damage?
I'm not saying the fear is reasonable, but when you look at the current sources of dex to damage, it's armed to see any other desire than to limit two weapon fighting with dex to damage. Dervish dance is limited to one weapon only. Slashing grace and it's yet to be published rapier counterpart are limited to one handed weapons, inflicting larger penalties on twf. Agile weapons are a cash sink that need two +2 weapons to further delay access to it.
Why put so many limitations if not to minimize twf with dex to damage?
Quite frankly, the numbers and mechanics they've implemented thus far that Dexterity affects doesn't really add up in comparison to Strength.
By 11th level, I can have up to a +10 Dexterity modifier while raging in combat, and be able to TWF without penalties, have +2 Agile properties on my weapons, cast Haste on myself, and have a base AC over 30 while wearing light-ish armor, all according to WBL that they've printed.
And the numbers come out to still being substantially under an average two-handed Martial that actually has more durability than I do, and a comparable AC to boot. And he didn't have to give up a damn thing for it.
Needless to say, it only proves my point: Balance is not something Paizo cares about. They have a vision for the game which supersedes such pedantic things, and that vision doesn't include implementing Dexterity for Damage (unless you're a Swashbuckler, and even then that's iffy).
[...] Slashing Grace only applies to one handed slashing weapons (none of which appear on Weapon Finesse)?
There is one weapon it applies to for everyone - the whip. Kensai Magus' are probably having a field day. There is also the Aldori Dueling Sword.
It is however mostly a swashbuckler feat, but there is plenty you can do with the feat if you dip swashbuckler, including dex to damage TWF with light weapons (Well, sort of - see the Sawtooth Sabre).
I'm actually rather pleased that some exotic weapons may actually be worth a feat now.
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Unless I am totally dense and missing something completely obvious. Isn't my two weapon fighting dex based rogue able to take this feat with his kukri?
Slashing weapon. Check.
Finesse. Check.
It's at least an alternative to me trying to get agile on both...
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The feat does not include Light weapons.
Kukri don't get dex to damage from Slashing Grace feat.
Slashing grace specifies one handed weapon, and that specific weapon gets dex to damage
Ah. There we go. That is what I didn't notice. I just read one-handed weapon. Now I understand the confusion. That's pretty janky
I can't find slashing grace, what source is it from?
Has it been uploaded to the pfsrd under a different name? Sounds like something promising that I want to look up.
pfsrd is still in the process of uploading all the stuff from the ACG. I don't know if it will change names or not.
The Developers who work on the rules side have since the beginning been afraid of DEX to damage. The reason is not how great it makes TWF though that is an issue. The real concern is that it makes DEX which is already a prized stat for many builds, even better. Hence it is not just a swashbuckler class feature but they are making it cost a feat.
The Developers who work on the rules side have since the beginning been afraid of DEX to damage. The reason is not how great it makes TWF though that is an issue. The real concern is that it makes DEX which is already a prized stat for many builds, even better. Hence it is not just a swashbuckler class feature but they are making it cost a feat.
Which has been proven profusely in this thread and the many others that were spawned with the same concern of "Where's the Dex at?" Allowing Dexterity builds currently is not only not gamebreaking, but is also an inoptimal choice, given the options Strength builds have that outweigh any benefits a Dexterity build could possibly gain.
Quite frankly, it's much more defensible to say that the Devs never cared to have Dexterity to Attack/Damage as an option, and just chopped out a lot of 3.5 copypaste material to follow that vision.
You want to go two-handed Dexterity? No 1.5x Dexterity to damage, and you can't utilize Piranha Strike with it unless it's a Light Weapon, which is double-negative for 1.5x Dexterity; it also doesn't scale up with handedness like Power Attack does. So you're dealing significantly less damage than a two-handed Strength with having to spend even more investment.
You want to go two-weapon Dexterity? You have to be extremely niche in item selection, invest in obscure effects, and forgo damage dice because you have to use Light crap in order to be any good; this also means you should be a Crit Fisher, so unless it's 18-20/X2 in multiplier, you can just go kill yourself for being useful in melee combat. Did I mention you have to give up at least 4 feats (40% of the grand total you normally obtain) in order to be any good at it, like the Vital Strike chain?
All that for what, slightly better acrobatics, Touch AC (regular AC will be unaffected, because heavier armor counterbalances it), and Reflex Saves? At the cost of effectively reduced damage, and the carrying capacity of a fly? Not worth for anyone in my opinion.
By rights, denying options to make them thrive is what really questions the entire purpose of allowing feats like Weapon Finesse to be of any use, other than for Paizo to just implement 3.X Copypaste material because they're lazy to edit out what they like/hate about those predecessor aspects.
While I can definitely find use for Weapon Finesse, none of them involves directly damaging somebody in melee combat, moreso helping me enable others who didn't dump Strength to better damage somebody in melee combat.
The fear is allowing dex to damage with two weapon fighting, clearly.
I agree, though apparently they forgot about Saw Tooth Sabers...this REALLY makes me want to play a red mantis assassin!