Gearless characters


Homebrew and House Rules

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Gearless characters are one of those things many people want. 'Vow of poverty' monks or ascetic clerics. A 'low-magic' style feel of not being festooned in system-required numerical bonuses. A desire for a character's accomplishments to be their own doing, not just their magic belt. And so on.

But the system fights this, and hard. There is a basic assumption in the CR tables that you've spent a certain amount of wealth on AC and save bonuses, or on improving your attack roll and damage (if you use attack rolls and weapon damage.)

A GM wishing to run a 'low magic' campaign can simply lower Wealth-per-level and use less powerful monsters, or perhaps just adjust AC, attack, and save DCs somewhat. But that isn't quite fair across the party: spellcasters and martial classes are affected by access to wealth differently. Spellcasters use magic items to save juice - Reducing their wealth simply shortens the adventuring day as more spell slots are spent on basic buffs and healing. Martial characters, in contrast, use magic items to gain new abilities: reducing their wealth increases the chances that a martial character is unable to affect the outcome of an encounter.

There have also been attempts to fit a gearless character into a party of more ordinary characters. These tend to have secondary problems. For instance the 'Vow of poverty' style solution where a character refuses to use gear in exchance for static bonuses. This approach requires the GM to adjust the wealth in their campaign, to avoid the other party members getting a larger share. Additionally, static numerical bonuses (like these approaches usually give) are only half the battle. They don't address the other things magic items can do, like flight or the use of other magical effects. In a way, they also cheapen the idea of a Vow of Poverty: if going without gets you the same result, then there is no sacrifice. (Set had an excellent commentary on Good getting all the toys here.)

Other solutions involve 'buying' magical bonuses by sacrificing/tithing/donating wealth. These solutions manage to avoid upsetting expected WBL, but are mechanically a bit hollow. It feels like a hack, because it is, and also kind of feels like just buying invisible magic items. (Incidentally, it also somewhat cheapens crafting feats.) Sometimes this approach involves magical tattoos or the like, which really do just become magic items under another name.

Gearless characters are also immune or more resistant to sundering, disarming, and dispelling effects, which is usually not the intent of these abilities, but should be considered when balancing them.

I don't have a solution. This thread is for discussion so we can find one.


play dark sun
problem solved

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

That's the 'low magic', or I guess I should have said 'low wealth' option. It affects different character types asymmetrically, but a canny GM can compensate for that, and adjust challenges accordingly.

It doesn't do much for the ascetics, though.


I think the best solution for this is to go with static bonuses and then something like item-equivalent "packages" that can grant martials the extra versatility they need (wu xia flight once or twice a day or a teleport) and casters some limited juice (like maybe a certain number of extra level 1 to 3 abjuration spells a day or a once-per-day quicken of a 1st or second level spell or some such thing). Maybe this could be themed as "spirit blessings" or "ki magic" or some such thing.

This one guy on here posted a kind of "combat style" guide that was meant to replace magic items but it had so many house rules reference in it that it was pretty much useless.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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I have a suspicion that attempting to retrofit gearless characters into a game like Pathfinder that allows a direct transition between wealth and power is inevitably going to have enough ripple effects as to require an adjustment of the entire game.


what about mythic

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Mythic adds options and staying power to characters without using wealth, true. But I'm not sure it works for the case of 'I want to run my Vow of Poverty monk in a party of more traditional characters' case.


it would take some balancing and forethought as well as working with your GM

I am actually playing an ascetic character in WotR for this very reason

I figured Mythic would give me the best chance of maintaining the character's vibe without having to cover him in a whole ton of gear and magical items

then again, I am very far away still from the levels where this disparity really begins to show, due to wealth and such

Silver Crusade

Tagging this for later! Gencon prep and the trip are eating up all my time at the moment, but I have a lot of thoughts on this and keeping magic-gearless characters in play in standard campaigns. :)

Dark Archive

From the other thread;

Quote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Gearless characters can have weird side effects on the characters around them. I'd be happy to spin off another thread or talk about it over PM.
Quote:

Gearless character options do work better if they interact with WBL similarly to gear-dependent characters, perhaps through some sort of training costs, ritual performance expenses or gaining-powers-from-the-good-gods-through-acts-of-charity/sacrifice or something (which would have the 'ascetic' still taking a share of party treasure, but then handing it over to charity).

And even then, there's the question of how those gear-slot-less abilities will interact with actual items in those slots (giving the 'gear-less' character the ability to double fill each slot, barring a Vow of Poverty situation where you explicitly can't double-dip, or Tattoo Magic option where the 'magic item tattoos' end up occupying the same body slots anyway, which is pretty much magic items by another name...), or how the gear-less abilities will balance against gear-dependent abilities that can be stolen, sundered, dispelled, anti-magic-fielded, etc.

If Pathfinder Unchained explores that sort of concept, it would be ideal if those consideration got some discussion.

The idea that certain characters interact differently with the standard 'kill peeps to get GPs and EPs' assumptions of the game is intriguing, as it threatens to undermine the 'murderhobo' lynchpin of the 1st edition AD&D setup. (and is vaguely reminiscent of 2nd edition, where each class could get bonus XP for specific class-themed actions that didn't necessarily involve shanking people or accumulating gold, making it a *huge* departure from 1st edition, where each GP was also an XP, making it literally an integral part of 'leveling up' to prybar up everything worth coin) :)

It is certainly a rose with a lot of thorns attached to it, and I'm sure I don't have a great solution just sitting around, since the game's origins are fundamentally built off of the 'kill stuff and take their loot to become more powerful' assumption.

Still, City of Heroes proved that an MMO, generally regarded as barely-legitimate bastard children of RPGaming, could abandon that premise and still not only succeed, but thrive, and there are plenty of games where the amount of cash you've got doesn't really have that big an impact on your character's capabilities. (Vampire, for one. Unlike Werewolves with their klaives or Mages with their toys, Vampire never really was much about 'stuff.') It's definitely going to be rollerskating uphill to try to design a gearless character concept that plays well in a party full of loot-obsessed 'take everything that isn't nailed down, and use the crowbar on anything that *is* nailed down' characters, but just because it isn't super-easy doesn't mean it's impossible, or shouldn't be explored.


Star Wars SAGA may have some useful concepts about the matter, since there were no magic items in the system. For instance, instead of 1 ability point every 4 levels, you received 2 ability points, that should be applied in diferent scores (1 to STR, and 1 to CON, as an example).

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Actually, one thing that might be helpful is to try to figure out the unwritten assumptions about gear that are baked into the Challenge Rating system and related subjects like spell lists.

The first and most obvious (as well as easiest to reverse engineer) are things like bonuses to saves, attack, and AC. The crafting guidelines specify that you can't craft an item with a +X of more than a third of your level, so we can interpret that to mean that, for instance, at 6th level you're expected to have at most a +2 weapon, +2 to all saves, and +6 to AC (because you have magic armor, a ring of protection, and a amulet of natural armor). Interestingly, this means AC exactly keeps pace with full BAB, but falls steadily behind a character who keeps upgrading their weapon.

Secondary to this are stat boosting items, which I honestly don't know when you're 'expected' to upgrade, especially for MAD-der characters.

Then there are basic effects, like assuming that you get flight (or at least a reliable way to defeat flying foes) shortly after 5th level.

Spontaneous casters would be much less viable without scrolls and wands to increase their versatility. (Even if a sorcerer with a tightly themed spell list reading a scroll of unrelated magic off the wizard list is one of the things that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.)

I recall one of the 3.0 rulebooks (I think the DMG) had an aside about how at 13th level, a party is assumed to be able to get past a wall of force because even if you don't have a disintegrate handy, you should be able to muster a rod of cancellation, teleportation, or burrowing through the adjacent stone wall. Even if this means going into town to buy a scroll of disintegrate with petty cash. What other effects are like that? The cleric list might provide some clues, since it tells us that a level 5 cleric is expected to be able to overcome disease, so a party of a few levels above that should be assumed to have it as a given.


Ok, Ross... Now it's when I bow to your expertise... =P


Consider me dotting this thread for interest.

Sovereign Court

dot


I've been using the anti Christmas tree rules presented by Evil Lincoln and others in his thread, which I can't seem to find at the moment (on my phone). Weapons, armor, and shields all still do the standard +1 etc, but the rest if the six is out. Additionally, I threw out wealth by level and haven't looked back. It has worked wonderfully.


Ricardo Pennacchia wrote:
Star Wars SAGA may have some useful concepts about the matter, since there were no magic items in the system. For instance, instead of 1 ability point every 4 levels, you received 2 ability points, that should be applied in diferent scores (1 to STR, and 1 to CON, as an example).

To compensate for magic items, you also added 1/2 your character level to saves, AC, and a number of other things.

The Exchange

The Iron Heroes system pointed out that without magic items, wealth didn't change the 'power level' of the characters so much as the kind of stories that would happen to those characters. And in AD&D, of course, magic items were so uncommon that the rare case of 'trading in' usually led to the lesser item being given to underlings, hidden in a buried cache, or traded away for a big favor rather than trading it for gold down at the Commodities Exchange. I'd be interested in any reports anybody has of any RPG (fantasy or otherwise) that ever presented a plausible way to 'reward' poverty, profligacy or moderation. I'm not tired of PF, but I'm tired of greed being a virtue. ;)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Greed is a virtue, if your goal is to be the biggest, most powerful person around.

It's just that if that is your only goal, that's kinda evil.


For a Vow of Poverty kind of character - where 1 character is gearless but the rest aren't this is something we have done for a while in our game and it seems to work out. Originally tested with the concept of a Monk/Sorcerer, and the special effect of this idea was very much VoP but the character developed spontaneous magical abilities - not really much different internally than class abilities. The character was modeled some on Donaldsonian Bloodgaurd - believing any weapon outside themselves to be a weakness.

The character would get his "cut" of the gear and coin, and donate to worthy causes. Then would meditate.

The player would then "buy" a magic item of approriate cost - always a permanent item - and in our case paid about 10%-20% extra (to mechanically offset the fact that these "items" could not be stolen) then the character would gain a new "class ability" of that magic item.

The character in question is an Empyreal sorcerer, and when she had 2000 K donated, she developed the "Guided" property on her unarmed attacks (hello SAD: AC hit damage spells all of Wisdom - really cheesy).

Later on she had donated enough to "buy" a +2 Wisdom item, and then gained that.

And to be honest, it is a kind of Hack as you describe, but internally it feels very natural to the character and not like "invisible magic items"

Pretty much the same philosophy/mechanic as the original VoP, but it gives the player/GM flexibility to give the character something that fits the story, and what the players want, rather than a predetermined list of special abilities.

Don't really have an approach for a game that is low magic/low magic items. The solution we came up with was very "high magic"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Dot ... I have never made it high enough of a level to matter, but we're going to be approaching this issue soon and I prefer magic to be more rare and special.

I do remember that my first AD&D character ... I once looked through his inventory and the only thing non-magic were the little bags holding all his magic rings.


I'm certainly on board. As a side effect, giving increases to the character in ways besides gear also opens up more interesting gear choices (if you still use regular wealth systems), as you no longer need to get your AC/Stats/whatever up. I think this is just generally a good idea.


Albatoonoe wrote:
I'm certainly on board. As a side effect, giving increases to the character in ways besides gear also opens up more interesting gear choices (if you still use regular wealth systems), as you no longer need to get your AC/Stats/whatever up. I think this is just generally a good idea.

This is actually a good point. All those 'useless' knick-knack magic items that take up the important slots can actually get used now.


Lamontius wrote:

play dark sun

problem solved

I ran a darksun campaign back in '09. I think at level 17 when the campaign ended the most wealth anyone had was around 40-50k, minus three artifacts they had to hunt down that were needed to fight the BBEG.

It certainly was fun. Granted, Darksun the races are stronger and its a higher point build-power level. I think everyone was able to contribute pretty well through out, though the Barbarian started to lag at the end a little, he still contributed all the way into the boss fight.

Sovereign Court

If the prime purpose of wealth is no longer to buy more magic items, other uses of wealth become more natural;

  • Recruit followers, build strongholds and maintain armies.

  • Make a character that actually spends his wealth on "retirement" projects.

  • Donate money to worthy causes (and perhaps buying NPC approval/fame in the process).

    But right now, it seems like adventuring is something you do to earn wealth to become a better adventurer. Looking for "retirement money" isn't really something that makes sense right now. Which is a shame.

    And as has been mentioned before, it just stinks for characters with a nonmaterialistic bent, both monks that don't want "crutches" or to be "weighed down with material possessions", but also for paladins with a plausible paladin code that's against hoarding personal wealth.

    It takes some mental gymnastics to keep a paladin playable if your Code says that you shouldn't hoard personal possessions, since the game mechanics pretty much force you to, to remain competitive. For now I've gone with the gear technically being on loan from the church, but I think it just kinda stinks.


  • If you have one character who wants to go gearless and the rest of the party doesn't, you really do need mechanical enforced charitable donations. As in, you are always obligated to claim a proportionate share of any rewards, plundered or awarded, permanent or temporary, with a value as close as possible to the total value of all rewards divided by the number of player characters, and donate this (or a number of gold pieces equal to what it would sell for) to some charity which does not directly benefit yourself or any of your companions.

    Past that, it's pretty easy. Using WBL guidelines, as a base, you grant appropriately typed bonuses to various things which make sense based on the value of equivalent items, generally going with the real staples: attributes, saving throws, natural armor, deflection, base speed.

    As for how you do that, just straight-up giving virtual gold to spend on virtual equipment is a bit tacky, but there might be something to be said for working out some sort of point spending system, a table with a lot of options, or some mix of the two.

    Say: Assign 3 stats as primary, secondary, and tertiary for your character. At levels X Y Z, gain a permanent, cumulative +1 enhancement bonus to your primary attribute, At levels W and V gain +1 to your secondary. At levels U, gain +1 to your tertiary. Additionally, every N levels, gain a point of Discipline, which can be spent to permanently gain any of the following- List goes here.

    Even if you fix the whole list in place (aside from granting stat priority choices), it fits the encounter balance curve just fine, and masks the fact that you're still essentially just investing cash in your character well enough not to break suspension of disbelief. Particularly if the whole party does it.

    Feels pretty unique mechanically too if you ration out the stat bonuses 1 point at a time on a slow drip, rather than the usual +2 clumps.


    Maybe you could replace the gear entirely with abilities gained by visting special teachers.

    Let's say the Barbarian wants to gain a Strength bonus like from a +6 belt of giant strength. Therefore he joins the Arena of the Cyclopsking, where he has to wrestle with giants and participate in their strength games. After this training he gains a +6 bonus to strength due to his superhuman training.

    If you still wanna give out tons of gold, he could have to pay the same amount for this training, he would have paid for a belt, 36k.
    You could just note the worth their abillities would have.

    The same could be done to replicate Boots of Flying, by going to the Hidden Monastery of airy steps or something.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Another possibility would be to give the characters the boni of 3.5s Vow of Poverty for static bonuses, but hand out utility items normally.
    Now magic items won't be as mandatory anymore, but still give cool effects, when used.
    Everyone gets his rare unique little bag of tricks. One guy has the Flying Carpet, the other a horn of Fog and some other stuff. The characters need teamwork to utilize those effects.
    Magic Weapons need special abillties to be cool in this system. For example the Fighter would just wield a Brilliant sword, while the bonus comes directly from the character.
    One could also reflavour some Rods to make the Blade of Absorption etc.


    Ascalaphus wrote:
    But right now, it seems like adventuring is something you do to earn wealth to become a better adventurer.

    It's a big circle. From level 1 to whatever you're stuck focusing on Keeping up with the Joneses. You can't afford to spend money on interesting things, because that money counts toward your wealth by level which is required to defeat challenges appropriate your level.

    Dumping most of the big 6 (save weapons, armor/shields) and wealth by level was the best "house rule" I ever adopted. Don't get me wrong, there are other house rule "reversions" we've made to fix massive mistakes in 3.x (specifically for spellcasters), but this has had the largest impact on our games.

    Since we adopted this rule, we've had significant donations to churches; one character opened up an orphanage and hired folks to run it for her; another character began hiring for construction of a temple to his deity in a frontier area; yet another started a shipping business.

    In my opinion, wealth by level is terrible game design - it discourages roleplaying. Your character might not get that nifty item and lag behind/die, so to hell with spending money on something your character might normally want to. The same goes for the "Magic-Mart" concept introduced by Monte Haul Cook and Co. at the inception of 3.0.

    While I like the engine of 3.0 far more than 1st & 2nd AD&D, there are a ton of balance-focused (risk-reward) restrictions that were in place that Cook & Co. just dumped outright without looking back.


    So, one of my chief interests in "gearless" would be to better create and run very low-magic campaigns- Bronze and Stone Age sorts of campaigns, where monetary wealth is of far different form and may not exist at all (or, again, as we know it).

    As such, alternatives such as suggested by Ascalaphus are one idea favored by me to represent "treasure" accumulated by the player characters, and could possibly be worked as an adjunct to the Kingdom Building system as a result.

    Above and beyond that, of course, there would be a need to figure out how to provide for the boosts to character abilities and stats that are currently sort of "baked in assumptions" of the system that Ross mentioned in the OP and has been discussed.

    So, nothing really substantive to add at the moment, I guess, but just sort of throwing out the idea that ideally I'd like a gearless alternative to be as broad as possible to cover not just low-magic swords and sorcery fantasy, but low-tech as well (and, by extension, I imagine, high-tech. I could certainly see its applicability in something like a Gamma World post-apocalyptic fantasy campaign setting, where most "gear" is salvaged and unreliable, and characters would still need a consistent method of remaining viable.)

    RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    I've seen houserules on these forums where characters naturally gain enhancement bonuses as they level up. I've also seen more interesting rule sets for mundane items, such as multiple tiers of masterwork quality.


    The Book of Exalted Deeds had the vow of poverty, which provided a series of bonuses meant to replace the typical magic items to a character who deliberately decided to live a life of, well, poverty. He'd gain an armor bonus, ability score bonus, saves bonus, attack bonus and so on, all scaling to his level.

    The vow created some fairly major issues for a character who couldn't cast spells from his class features, but if you borrow the bonuses you'd probably have a decent starting point for a character that can work without needing the traditional "big six".

    RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

    The big six are the easiest to replace. They're just numbers. I'm more concerned with the secondary effects that give high level characters more options.

    Kudaku is correct that that is less of an issue for (prepared) casters because they can usually fish into their spell list for whatever option might be handy. But classes without spells, and spontaneous casters, rely on magic items to get powers not provided by their class features.

    An interesting thought experiment might be to re-imagine the game is it was balanced around sorcerers and oracles instead of wizards and clerics. That is, without the assumption that most spells of your spell level are only a day or two away at most.


    Kudaku wrote:

    The Book of Exalted Deeds had the vow of poverty, which provided a series of bonuses meant to replace the typical magic items to a character who deliberately decided to live a life of, well, poverty. He'd gain an armor bonus, ability score bonus, saves bonus, attack bonus and so on, all scaling to his level.

    The vow created some fairly major issues for a character who couldn't cast spells from his class features, but if you borrow the bonuses you'd probably have a decent starting point for a character that can work without needing the traditional "big six".

    I remember the book suggesting a XP for expensive componants rule where you spend XP for stuff like diamonds. Of course Enschew Matrials is a must


    Lord Mhoram wrote:

    For a Vow of Poverty kind of character - where 1 character is gearless but the rest aren't this is something we have done for a while in our game and it seems to work out. Originally tested with the concept of a Monk/Sorcerer, and the special effect of this idea was very much VoP but the character developed spontaneous magical abilities - not really much different internally than class abilities. The character was modeled some on Donaldsonian Bloodgaurd - believing any weapon outside themselves to be a weakness.

    The character would get his "cut" of the gear and coin, and donate to worthy causes. Then would meditate.

    The player would then "buy" a magic item of approriate cost - always a permanent item - and in our case paid about 10%-20% extra (to mechanically offset the fact that these "items" could not be stolen) then the character would gain a new "class ability" of that magic item.

    The character in question is an Empyreal sorcerer, and when she had 2000 K donated, she developed the "Guided" property on her unarmed attacks (hello SAD: AC hit damage spells all of Wisdom - really cheesy).

    Later on she had donated enough to "buy" a +2 Wisdom item, and then gained that.

    And to be honest, it is a kind of Hack as you describe, but internally it feels very natural to the character and not like "invisible magic items"

    Pretty much the same philosophy/mechanic as the original VoP, but it gives the player/GM flexibility to give the character something that fits the story, and what the players want, rather than a predetermined list of special abilities.

    Don't really have an approach for a game that is low magic/low magic items. The solution we came up with was very "high magic"

    I like this idea. Let me combine this with some things from my random ideas folder:

    Wealth
    As PCs gain levels the amount of Wealth they have and can use increases as well. Wealth is divided in Treasure and Opportunity. Treasure is represented by gold pieces, jewels, magic itens, and other things tat can be bought, sold or used as currency. Opportunity is a more abstract concept representing effort put into training, favor of the gods, luck and even the discovery of inherent abilities.
    PCs should be awarded Treasure when defeating opponents like bandits, vampires or dragons, those that would have money or magic items with them. Conversely they should be awarded Opportunity when fighting enemies that wouldn't have money with them, such as dire animals or ghosts. A DM can also alter an encounter to mix Opportunity and Treasure depending on what he and his group prefer.
    Treasure can be used to buy and craft items be they mundane alchemical, or magical, invest in business, buy land pay for servants, accomodations and other services.
    Opportunity can be used to find specific magical itens, gain inherent abilities through study, training, favor of the gods, sheer badassery, becoming a demigod, unlocking his X gene draconic, angelic, fae, whatever heritage, or any other idea the player can come up with. To use opportunity to find a magic item you pay an amount of opportunity costs equal to the price of the item in question and you find the item in the next place the DM thinks would be appropriate, like a dragons hoard, an abandoned crypt or in the hands of an enemy.
    To use Opportunity to gain an inherent ability you spend the cost of the approppriate magic item +20%. These abilities are generally supernatural abilities though they can cause Attacks of Opportunity if using the item they are based on would cause an AoO. You cannot buy an inheret ability based on a consumable item like a potion or a feather token. Some inherent abilities can become Extraordinary abilities if the PC has the Extraordinary Physique or Trained by a Master feats.
    One Gold Piece is equivalent to one Opportunity Cost. A PC can exchange them at that rate by doing certain actions. To convert Gold to Opportunity the PC can donate money to charity, pay taxes or membership fees to his organization, spend it in wild parties drink and food, pay for training, pursue pure magic or scientific research or any other action approved by the DM. He can exchange opportunity for gold by stealing from targets, fighting in arenas, performing for crowds, crafting and selling your products, teaching, reasearching, or otherwise working or any other action approved by the DM. No matter the action the PC can only exchange up to a certain amount per day depending on his level, according to the following table:
    Table is WIP

    New Feats:
    Extraordinary Physique
    Prerequisites: BAB +11, At least +2 enhancement bonus to one attribute bought as an inherent ability.
    Benefit: Any enhancement ability to attributes is becomes an extraordinary ability. If you have any of these items as inherent powers they also become extraordinary abilities: Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Deflection, a bunck others I haven't decided yet
    Special: This feat functions with all habilities on it's list even if bought after taking the feat.

    Trained By a Master: BAB+11, At least +1 armor, shield or weapon enhancement bonus bought as inherent bonus.
    Benefit: Any enhancement bonus to weapons shield and armor bought as inherent bonus become Extraordinary abilities. Any armor shield or weapon special qualities bought as inherent abilities also become Extraordinary abilities. If you have any of these items as inherent powers they also become extraordinary abilities: different smaller list from Extraordinary Physique

    Skill Change
    Profession: A sucessful Profession Check against a DC of 20 doubles what the PC can conert per day from gold to opportunity and from opportunity to gold.
    Craft, Knowledge, Perform: A sucessful Ski9ll Check against a DC of 30 increase by 50% what the PC can conert per day from gold to opportunity and from opportunity to gold.

    [b]New Rogue Talent[b]
    Be Prepared:
    The rogue is prepared for every contingency and can trust his utility belt to have the solution to most problems. As a full round action the rogue can spend Opportunity Cost up to what he could convert in a single day according to the table XA, and retrieve from his pack a single item he did not have before. This item can be assumed to have been bought at an earlier time with this exact type of situation in mind.

    Whew. I just hammered this out in one sitting. What do you guys think? Worth calculating the table and finishing up the feats?


    I've been considering a solution to the gear problem, but in my case the problem and solution are very heavily setting specific. The problem within my setting stems from the fact that I have a modern tech setting focused on government employed monster hunters. They aren't buying gear, it is being issued, and looting is not permitted. Level appropriate gear is unlikely, because the government isn't going to withhold the best equipment for the job. So, the magic item system as is won't work at all. What I'm considering as a solution is a template system. The government is into the logic that a werewolf or vampire can fight a werewolf or vampire better than a regular person can, so it hires monsters of friendly disposition. So, the PCs are monsters tasked with handling other monsters who get violently out of line. Within that context, I can add template abilities that don't just boost stats, but also grant martial characters access to magical abilities that would otherwise be granted by magic items. A vampire rogue levelled up and gained the ability to magically disguise herself? A seraphim fighter can light ordinance on fire now? Makes total sense.

    The Exchange

    Cyrad wrote:
    ...I've also seen more interesting rule sets for mundane items, such as multiple tiers of masterwork quality.

    Hackmaster uses it (gear quality can get up to +5, while "magic" items have all the sexier abilities such as frost, etc.) The d20 spin-off Lone Wolf didn't go that far, but it did have "superior" +1, "masterpiece" +2 and "sublime" +3 nonmagical weapons/armor.

    When you think about it, "5% better chance to hit" is a pretty feeble way to distinguish the work of the greatest swordsmiths on Earth from the workaday swords that journeymen crank out for the town guard. And "5% lower chance of falling off cliffs and horses" is an even feebler way to distinguish fine armor from the run-of-the-mill kind.


    In fantasy movies and TV shows, you don't see characters walking around with as much gear as on typical Pathfinder character sheet. It makes you wonder why you can't be more like Xena or Aragorn.

    I often want characters to be more like that so I intentionally keep my gear limited to a few things in exchange for giving up loot.

    For example, instead of also getting a magic bow to go with my magic sword, I forsake the magic bow and apply the cost to upgrading the sword. If it is not enough to add another +1 or ability, I notate off to the side. When I accumulate enough gp in the virtual "bank," the sword just spontaneously gains another enhancement. So not totally gearless, but gear-lite.

    Now for the truly gearless monk, I would use a combination of a couple different things.


    • The first is converting the gold using the downtime and contacts section in Ultimate Campaign. The monk develops a monastery and a network of friends to help him out. Need a teleport to a place far away? I know a wizard who lives here.
    • The 2nd is letting the monk buy upgrades as if his hands and body were weapons and armor. He can add +1 enhancement and flaming to his hands and +1 Armor to his body.

    I found those combination of things to work pretty well.


    IMO, the less system-intrusive way to allow gearless characters is to disconnect the abilities of items from their price. Cubicle 7's The One Ring does that, and Kirtfinder does that as well with its mojo system.

    In Kirtfinder, WBL is simply translated into a Mojo by Level. so instead of having 10 000gp, you have 10 000 mojo points for you to purchase magical items with. Go nuts.

    In TOR, character's are "owed" special things based on two "stats" that increase with experience (Wisdom gets you special abilities, Valour gets you special equipment). Whether they discover new inner potential, are trained do to special things, inherit special items, find stuff in a treasure along the way, steal it from the bad guys etc is up to the players and GM.

    In both case money has less to do with the character's abilities and more to do with their standing, social class and way of living.

    I could imagine a system going 50%/50%, with masterwork and magical equipment improving on what the character do, and really special abilities as part of the character's abilities (even if story-wise the ability is linked to an item). Consumables like alchemical compounds, magic potions and single-use magic items could add yet another set of abilities, ideally some that cannot easily be duplicated with spells.

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