well, Bravery could stand an upgrade. It's worse then Trap Sense as a class feature, and that's saying something.
==Aelryinth
Agreed. Armor Training could use a boost, too. Half of the reason for that class ability is just to show you that you need to spend MORE money on MORE ability scores late game if you want that feature to do anything at all. If it provided DR 1/- at level 3 and scaled that benefit accordingly, we could put something else in Armor Mastery's slot. Something actually WORTH it.
Mostly, I think that if feats were fixed to not be giant chains that required insane levels of investment to do one stupid thing fairly well, Fighters would be pretty much fine. I don't expect it, but if something to address that were included in Unchained, I'd be ecstatic.
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You know what would make DPR calculations more accurate? Have the PC in question make a level appropriate save every other round. That would give you a better ballpark for the actual damage output of a "combat" class.
In before someone tells you that the Fighter is better because he can do it an unlimited number of times per day.
Realistically how much is that worth? Because most theory seem to speak as if 1-3 fights in one day, resting always an option, Batman prep-time and foreknowledge, no urgency, and enemies that are ill equipped to combat spellcasters.
I think the Fighter is difficult to fix because realistically anything that a fighter would have access to in terms of combating things in an increasingly magical world would be accessible to anyone due to it's mundane nature and thus casters will live in a hellhole where silver bullets to their strategies are sold at every dollar store.
In before someone tells you that the Fighter is better because he can do it an unlimited number of times per day.Realistically how much is that worth? Because most theory seem to speak as if 1-3 fights in one day, resting always an option, Batman prep-time and foreknowledge, no urgency, and enemies that are ill equipped to combat spellcasters.
I think the Fighter is difficult to fix because realistically anything that a fighter would have access to in terms of combating things in an increasingly magical world would be accessible to anyone due to it's mundane nature and thus casters will live in a hellhole where silver bullets to their strategies are sold at every dollar store.
A fighter's "unlimited sword" really just means they don't have tactical resource expenditures and thus few tactical options.
Sadly a fighter's tactical resources is generally the potions they have and maybe the occasional wondrous item.
In before someone tells you that the Fighter is better because he can do it an unlimited number of times per day.
Realistically how much is that worth? Because most theory seem to speak as if 1-3 fights in one day, resting always an option, Batman prep-time and foreknowledge, no urgency, and enemies that are ill equipped to combat spellcasters.
Few fights in a day, resting always being an option, and good foreknowledge exists precisely because mid+ level casters can make that happen. If the party's too tired to face the next encounter, teleport back to your home base (which may be on your own personal demiplane) and rest. If you don't know what the BBEG has in his lair, use Divination magic to gather intelligence remotely, or send in an infiltrator under a Domination effect, or send in a spy with Mind Blank and access to repeat uses of Invisibility.
The only thing that can put a crimp on this is urgency, which is dependent entirely on the campaign's plot. And a DM can't overuse that, since his players will start to feel railroaded if he does.
In any case, the Fighter still has resources he can run out of: Hit Points, and the party's ability to either heal him or prevent him from taking damage. The latter can come about with buffing the Fighter, but also by killing or debilitating enemies before they can deal damage. If 3 of 4 party members have to stop and rest, it doesn't matter if the Wizard still has a ton of spells left over, or the Fighter's bonuses are passive. You stop and rest too, because you Do Not Split The Party.
In an emergency? All other things being equal, the Fighter is the most replaceable.
Bravely holding the line and sacrificing himself so his teammates can escape, isn't that what Fighters live for?
Is your 9th level wizard going to use his one 5th level spell for Teleport?
A 9th level wizard with Int 20 and Arcane Bond can cast three 5th level spells per day.
And if your party is bigger than 4, how does he decide who to leave behind?
The fighter, if you don't have a rogue.
Is your 9th level wizard going to use his one 5th level spell for Teleport?A 9th level wizard with Int 20 and Arcane Bond can cast three 5th level spells per day.
And if your party is bigger than 4, how does he decide who to leave behind?The fighter, if you don't have a rogue.
If you have 3 teleports, just bring back 4 people, then go back for the fighter/rogue.
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Just back to apologise for my dismissive tone earlier. It was pointed out to me, and rereading my posts it is true.
I could have made the same points with far less snark. Especially after I came in with the statements of one trying to avoid flaming and attacks. Turns out I was the tool in this scenario.
I stand by the premise of my arguments in terms of fighters (as do a number of other posters it now seems), but not the tone in which I made them.
Please accept my sincerest apologies to those I offended in such a manner.
Cheers
Few fights in a day, resting always being an option, and good foreknowledge exists precisely because mid+ level casters can make that happen. If the party's too tired to face the next encounter, teleport back to your home base (which may be on your own personal demiplane) and rest. If you don't know what the BBEG has in his lair, use Divination magic to gather intelligence remotely, or send in an infiltrator under a Domination effect, or send in a spy with Mind Blank and access to repeat uses of Invisibility.
But at the same time? and against enemies who will do whatever they want while you've teleported away, including escaping? And against enemies who won't make the perception check to know that they are being spied on and don't have the resources to do the same? And against enemies who completely lack detection magic?
Few fights in a day happens because its more status quo to have enemies who behave as if they don't have to routinely deal with casters in a world full of magic.
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But at the same time? and against enemies who will do whatever they want while you've teleported away, including escaping? And against enemies who won't make the perception check to know that they are being spied on and don't have the resources to do the same? And against enemies who completely lack detection magic?
If you're caught wrong-footed and teleport away, sure the enemy can escape or make preparations for your return. But what will the Fighter do if things go south and he doesn't have access to Teleport?
Sure, the enemy might find out that they're being spied on, but what else are you going to do? Rush in without finding out what you're up against? Send someone in to make a bunch of Disguise & Bluff and/or Stealth checks? If he rolls poorly on just one of them, he's alone in the midst of the enemy, and I hope for his sake he has Teleport.
I know Mind Blank isn't available until 15-16, but it shuts detection magic right down, which is why I mentioned using it in conjunction with Invisibility.
And there's the telling line right there: Enemies who have the resources to do the same to you, will do so. So it becomes a game of Wizards trying to outsmart each other while Fighters play bodyguard.
well just skipped to the end to drop a thought, that likely doesn't fit with where the conversations have gone to.
Fighter and a few other classes I feel are prime classes for lower level games. Me and some people i play with have always kinda viewed it that way. This will just get even more so come ACG.
Well, sure. I've seen convincing arguments that Fighter should end at level 6, because beyond that you need a "power source" of some kind: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, or whatever.
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Well, sure. I've seen convincing arguments that Fighter should end at level 6, because beyond that you need a "power source" of some kind: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, or whatever.well just skipped to the end to drop a thought, that likely doesn't fit with where the conversations have gone to.
Fighter and a few other classes I feel are prime classes for lower level games. Me and some people i play with have always kinda viewed it that way. This will just get even more so come ACG.
Or just a more robust catalogue of Ex abilities that allow higher level martials to execute actions on par with what spellcasters are capable of.
Well, sure. I've seen convincing arguments that Fighter should end at level 6, because beyond that you need a "power source" of some kind: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, or whatever.well just skipped to the end to drop a thought, that likely doesn't fit with where the conversations have gone to.
Fighter and a few other classes I feel are prime classes for lower level games. Me and some people i play with have always kinda viewed it that way. This will just get even more so come ACG.
Or a mechanic that allows "mundane" characters to have insane levels of skill. I've seen that in superhero RPGs, so there's no reason something like that would be impossible in PF.
"I don't want anime stuff in my game!"
Calling it right now, that'll be the essence of at least some of the complaints we see if such a thing is ever announced. Because if your ranks in Acrobatics ever let you actually do something really cool with jumping, no one would ever cast Fly again. /s
Fighters can't have Good things.
Look at this feat from the Advanced Class Guide:
Divine Protection: +Cha to all saves. level 2 divine spells, domains/mysteries/whatever.
That is like saying:
Martial Protection: You get all good saves.
Armor Training I required, 3 Combat Feats.
Yeah.
==Aelryinth
EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?While stuff like that would be a bonus, that's certainly a niche. A fighter, if you read the fluff and know the background, was supposed to be a leader of men. Not just a combat master in and of himself, but a man who commanded a fortress and legions of troops.
While that certainly isn't in fitting with the current style of gameplay, leadership for the most part banned and all, It would behoove him to be able to influence his allies. Give them bonuses, almost like a bard does. Directional commands and such that give bonuses to skill checks, certain saves, or combat capabilities like the tactical acumen.
He should be more skilled (4+), a perceptive person by his very freaking nature. He should, by sheer resilience, be able to shrug off chunks of damage. Let loose terrifying cries that send enemies running.
I.e. the fighter should be a tactical commander, not another mook with a sword. Problem is they built a new class to do what the original fighter was supposed to be.
So... the Samurai Class and the Cavalier class?
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So... the Samurai Class and the Cavalier class?EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?While stuff like that would be a bonus, that's certainly a niche. A fighter, if you read the fluff and know the background, was supposed to be a leader of men. Not just a combat master in and of himself, but a man who commanded a fortress and legions of troops.
While that certainly isn't in fitting with the current style of gameplay, leadership for the most part banned and all, It would behoove him to be able to influence his allies. Give them bonuses, almost like a bard does. Directional commands and such that give bonuses to skill checks, certain saves, or combat capabilities like the tactical acumen.
He should be more skilled (4+), a perceptive person by his very freaking nature. He should, by sheer resilience, be able to shrug off chunks of damage. Let loose terrifying cries that send enemies running.
I.e. the fighter should be a tactical commander, not another mook with a sword. Problem is they built a new class to do what the original fighter was supposed to be.
Resilience instead of Bravery and Tactician and Banner as Fighter feats or options would have actually made a lot of sense. I could easily see a "PF 2.0" Fighter encompassing the ideas represented in the current Fighter, Cavalier, and Samurai (and honestly probably Brawler too).
What's my name???Ok, he didn't really say that, but srsly guys.... It's not that bad.
If you always find martial characters fall flat compared to casters, stop playing them the flat way. The Fighter in my current group is by far the strongest in the party, way more usefull than the Oracle and Witch. It's just that the Fighter knows what he's doing, unlike the casters.
Ok.. thats cool... I guess...
but the problem is not so much focusing on martial vs casters but how the fighter falls behind even other martials...
And your world experiance kind of does not mean much... The only reason the fighter is doing better is because of system mastery... Hell, I could make a CRB monk look awesome vs a wizard if the wiz kid does not know what the heck he is doing...
What's my name???Ok, he didn't really say that, but srsly guys.... It's not that bad.
If you always find martial characters fall flat compared to casters, stop playing them the flat way. The Fighter in my current group is by far the strongest in the party, way more usefull than the Oracle and Witch. It's just that the Fighter knows what he's doing, unlike the casters.
Ok.. thats cool... I guess...
but the problem is not so much focusing on martial vs casters but how the fighter falls behind even other martials...
And your world experiance kind of does not mean much... The only reason the fighter is doing better is because of system mastery... Hell, I could make a CRB monk look awesome vs a wizard if the wiz kid does not know what the heck he is doing...
Heck, an optimized Warrior NPC could probably take apart a poorly-made wizard. All it really takes to completely ruin the wizard is giving him a bad spell selection.
So... the Samurai Class and the Cavalier class?EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?While stuff like that would be a bonus, that's certainly a niche. A fighter, if you read the fluff and know the background, was supposed to be a leader of men. Not just a combat master in and of himself, but a man who commanded a fortress and legions of troops.
While that certainly isn't in fitting with the current style of gameplay, leadership for the most part banned and all, It would behoove him to be able to influence his allies. Give them bonuses, almost like a bard does. Directional commands and such that give bonuses to skill checks, certain saves, or combat capabilities like the tactical acumen.
He should be more skilled (4+), a perceptive person by his very freaking nature. He should, by sheer resilience, be able to shrug off chunks of damage. Let loose terrifying cries that send enemies running.
I.e. the fighter should be a tactical commander, not another mook with a sword. Problem is they built a new class to do what the original fighter was supposed to be.
Y'know, I considered trying to merge both the Fighter and the Sword Saint Samurai archetype (flavor-wise, I don't see fighters automatically getting mounts). It was a bit of a mess, a bunch of abilities spread out everywhere with a LOT of front-loading for the class. It also didn't do anything to remedy several existing issue with the fighter, such as stupid feat prereqs / chains / limitations. Weapon Training plus Challenge & Iaijutsu Strike is probably too much to toss into one class.
The Resolve class feature is fantastic, though, really something the fighter would benefit from.
Held to reality.....Bwahahahahaha.
How far can you fall and survive?
Can you fight a squad of 30 troops and walk away unscathed?
Can you one shot a rhinoceros after running 30 ft in armour?
Can you pump out 6 or more arrows in under 6 seconds, at 3 or more targets and hit them?All of those happen with fighters at mid to high levels, the point at which magic users "begin to bend reality".
Well played fighters are great.
Fighters have the flexibility to mitigate some of the "issues" people have with them through feats and class abilities. (Skill focus if you want a skill, iron will for defense etc).Archetypes for fighters out there can be amazing.
The fact you have weapon spec as a class ability means you don't need to put feats in to weapon focus etc, nor do you need the + mod on magic weapons as high as other classes do for the same benefit. This frees up more wealth for specialised gear to shore up weaknesses if needed. It also frees feat slots for more diverse builds if you want.
The problem with fighters is that people build them as one trick ponies, when they can be anything you want.
Anyway, no one in this thread will be convinced so....good gaming to you.
Cheers
Except that fighters are wasting their class features to try and make up for a shoddy class. Do you see Barbarians wasting their features on a meager +2 from Iron Will? Do you see other martials wasting their time with Skill Focus? No, because they are good enough on their own to not have to make up for their weaknesses.
and i like you call out "one-trick ponies" but then say fighters can use their feats to make up for their weaknesses. If they are using up their feats to make up for their weaknesses, what are they actually doing then? How effective are they at THE ONE THING THEY ACTUAlLY CAN DO? Guess what? Combat manuevers require a lot of feats. Two weapon fighting requires a lot of feats, archery requires a lot of feats. So between making up for their shoddy class framework and working on a spec, they don't have much feats left over...
Didn't read through it all, but I'll post what I've posted before on this same type of thread:
Fighter "Martial Exploits":
At 1st level the fighter gains an exploit pool. At the start of each day, a fighter gains a number of exploit points equal to 1/2 his fighter level + Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). These points go up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than his maximum. A fighter uses exploits to accomplish heroic feats, and regains his exploits in the following ways.
Personal Challenge: The fighter may elect to challenge himself in order to regain his martial exploits. In order to do this, he must set for himself a personal challenge. This personal challenge must be performed against a challenging foe, encounter, or other circumstance deemed appropriate by the GM. For example, a fighter might attempt to defeat a powerful foe in single combat, a less powerful foe without being struck, or defeat an enemy with only tricky or challenging called shots. The fighter may set any number of personal challenges for himself during the day, but only one can be active at a time. If he triumphs over his challenge, he regains 1 exploit point.
Critical Hit: Each time the fighter rolls a natural 20 and confirms the critical, he regains 1 exploit point.
Fighters spend exploit points to accomplish heroic feats:
Focused Strike: As a free action, the fighter can spend 1 exploit point to gain a +1 insight bonus to his next attack.
Forceful Blow: As a free action, the fighter can spend 1 exploit point to gain a +1 insight bonus to damage for the next attack that hits within the next round.
Vigilant Stance: As a free action, the fighter can spend 1 exploit point to gain a +2 insight bonus to his CMD for one round. This ability may be used after an opponent attempts a combat maneuver on the fighter but only before the results of the roll are known.
Bold Maneuver: As a free action, the fighter can spend 1 exploit point to gain a +2 insight bonus to his CMB for one round. This ability must be used before the fighter attempts a combat maneuver.
Combat Focus: As a free action, the fighter can spend 1 exploit point to gain a +2 insight bonus to a single skill check made during combat. This ability must be used before the fighter attempts the skill check. These bonuses stack.
Quick Steps: As a swift action, the fighter can spend 2 exploit points to increase the distance of his 5-foot step by 5 feet for one round. The fighter must be level 6 to use this ability.
Decisive Stroke: As a standard action, the fighter can spend 2 exploit points to deliver a powerful strike. The fighter can make one attack at his highest base attack bonus. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities, precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
etc.
I figure since Gunslinger was originally going to be an alternate class for fighter(like ninja and samurai), giving the fighter a resource pool allows for more adaptability. I'm still kind of tinkering with it, but my players have really been enjoying the changes. The idea is that at higher levels the pool allows for the fighter to simulate various feats he should have, but are really just a feat tax, like Vital Strike or Disruptive, and free up feat slots by relegating that feat's use to the exploits. It's been working really well with this next part:
I also have an idea that replaces the straight fighter bonus feats with a set of two feats. He can prepare one from each "pool" at the beginning of the day and use his exploits to swap between them as a swift action for a point. So at level 2 my fighter takes Point-Blank Shot and Cleave. At level 4 he takes Weapon Specialization (Greatsword) and Rapid Shot. Or whatever. And then I can spend a point to switch my Cleave to PBS, or my Rapid Shot to Weapon Specialization. The fighter can also use these pools to wade through gateway feats for chains quicker, as he counts for having them for the purpose of prerequisites. That means he can still gets his normal bonus feat for a specific build like TWF, but on top of that he can get started on another feat chain and just ignore that level's pool.
Then the usual changes: Fighter gets 4 + Int skills/day, good Will save, and I also added bonuses to different armor types for armor training. In light armor +1 Ref., in medium armor he gets Fortified Armor Training, and in heavy armor the usual DR 1/-. Moved Weapon training down a slot, so he gets it at level 1, and just made the Martial Versatility feat an inherent part of the system. Finally, made Bravery more worthwhile by giving the fighter additional bonuses to his saves and an extra +1 to hit when he's the only ally threatening a target and not adjacent to any other ally.
So, yeah. Lot of changes. I basically rewrote parts of it, but my players have been having a blast rolling fighters this way. Just having a pool of points means that they feel like they're doing more every round, even if it's just stuff they should normally be doing. Having feats freed up more has been fun to watch, because they use the pools in creative ways. Some players use them to build their fighter with a ranged and melee build, others use them to bypass prerequisites, and one guy even took those social feats and skill focus to be a strong party face. Overall, this has been working splendidly, and the fighter has been on par with the other martial characters and not completely outclassed by black tentacles!
I don't think they need the exploit pool at level 1. Perhaps as a level 4 thing, to go with Weapon Training - perhaps you could tie regaining exploit points to critically hitting with a weapon you have Weapon Training of.
But enough of that -
yeah, the problem lies in Skill Points per Level and the power level of Feats.
Few fights in a day, resting always being an option, and good foreknowledge exists precisely because mid+ level casters can make that happen. If the party's too tired to face the next encounter, teleport back to your home base (which may be on your own personal demiplane) and rest. If you don't know what the BBEG has in his lair, use Divination magic to gather intelligence remotely, or send in an infiltrator under a Domination effect, or send in a spy with Mind Blank and access to repeat uses of Invisibility.
But at the same time? and against enemies who will do whatever they want while you've teleported away, including escaping? And against enemies who won't make the perception check to know that they are being spied on and don't have the resources to do the same? And against enemies who completely lack detection magic?
Few fights in a day happens because its more status quo to have enemies who behave as if they don't have to routinely deal with casters in a world full of magic.
In my experience, these "perfect" conditions exist because the DM allows it. It's generally accompanied by BBEG and act bosses that don't react like they live in a world with high level spellcasters, even when they are high level spellcasters.
In effect the DM is letting the party win, because that's fun.
The fighter isn't busted, the spell system is. Fixing the fighter and ignoring the spell system just leads to less challenge. The current challenge is generally illusory anyway. So why not make Fighters kill things.....because it can be used against players, which isn't fun. Spells don't kill players because the enemy spellcaster is typically an overconfident moron who reveals his plan Blofeld style right before the PCs trounce him. He never uses Finger of Death or whatever Save Or Die is listed, he doesn't make his sanctum Scry Proof, he doesn't check his minions for Charms etc.
The problem isn't really mechanical.
Spellcasters with level 5 spells have always ruled the game, in every version, because the spells and the spell system is broken.
As an experiment play a session with 9th to 12th level characters, but ditch Vancian casting and use a Mana or Point system. What little balance exists, disappears completely.
The Skill subsystem isn't perfect but it works
Untill spells make it obsolete.
The AC system works
Until spells make it irrelevant
The HP system works
Spells bypass it completely
Fixing the Fighter is just going to ramp up static bonuses in systems that will still be irrelevant due to spells.
One option that might work is to just go old school (1st edition) where Fighters eventually shrug off most spells and magic effects. The downside here is that the "Because Magic..." mindset will hate that.
Few fights in a day, resting always being an option, and good foreknowledge exists precisely because mid+ level casters can make that happen. If the party's too tired to face the next encounter, teleport back to your home base (which may be on your own personal demiplane) and rest. If you don't know what the BBEG has in his lair, use Divination magic to gather intelligence remotely, or send in an infiltrator under a Domination effect, or send in a spy with Mind Blank and access to repeat uses of Invisibility.
But at the same time? and against enemies who will do whatever they want while you've teleported away, including escaping? And against enemies who won't make the perception check to know that they are being spied on and don't have the resources to do the same? And against enemies who completely lack detection magic?
Few fights in a day happens because its more status quo to have enemies who behave as if they don't have to routinely deal with casters in a world full of magic.
In my experience, these "perfect" conditions exist because the DM allows it. It's generally accompanied by BBEG and act bosses that don't react like they live in a world with high level spellcasters, even when they are high level spellcasters.
In effect the DM is letting the party win, because that's fun.
The fighter isn't busted, the spell system is. Fixing the fighter and ignoring the spell system just leads to less challenge. The current challenge is generally illusory anyway. So why not make Fighters kill things.....because it can be used against players, which isn't fun. Spells don't kill players because the enemy spellcaster is typically an overconfident moron who reveals his plan Blofeld style right before the PCs trounce him. He never uses Finger of Death or whatever Save Or Die is listed, he doesn't make his sanctum Scry Proof, he doesn't check his minions for Charms etc.
The problem isn't really mechanical.
Spellcasters with level 5 spells...
Except people have proven, time and again, that the fighter is a bust even when put up against other martials. The Barbarian is pretty much Fighter+ right here (pretty much better than the fighter at everything), the paladin's fear immunity AURA is just a slap to the face of the fighter's "bravery" ability (and heck, even without it the Paladin is STILL better than the fighter with strong will +Cha to save), the ranger laughes at the fighter's "bonus feats everywhere!!" Since they also get bonus feats AND can skip pre-reqs of the feats (meaning they actually end up about even in the feat department).
And this is just CRB martials...
Personally I find it funny how the "Fighters are fine!" camp constantly try shifting the discussion to Martial vs Caster debates byt bring up problems with magic and blah...
The thing is though, it is not martial vs caster... the discussion is FIGHTER vs OTHER MARTIALS...
In my experience, these "perfect" conditions exist because the DM allows it. It's generally accompanied by BBEG and act bosses that don't react like they live in a world with high level spellcasters, even when they are high level spellcasters.
In effect the DM is letting the party win, because that's fun.
The fighter isn't busted, the spell system is. Fixing the fighter and ignoring the spell system just leads to less challenge. The current challenge is generally illusory anyway. So why not make Fighters kill things.....because it can be used against players, which isn't fun. Spells don't kill players because the enemy spellcaster is typically an overconfident moron who reveals his plan Blofeld style right before the PCs trounce him. He never uses Finger of Death or whatever Save Or Die is listed, he doesn't make his sanctum Scry Proof, he doesn't check his minions for Charms etc.
The problem isn't really mechanical.
Spellcasters with level 5 spells have always ruled the game, in every version, because the spells and the spell system is broken.As an experiment play a session with 9th to 12th level characters, but ditch Vancian casting and use a Mana or Point system. What little balance exists, disappears completely.
The Skill subsystem isn't perfect but it works
Untill spells make it obsolete.The AC system works
Until spells make it irrelevantThe HP system works
Spells bypass it completelyFixing the Fighter is just going to ramp up static bonuses in systems that will still be irrelevant due to spells.
One option that might work is to just go old school (1st edition) where Fighters eventually shrug off most spells and magic effects. The downside here is that the "Because Magic..." mindset will hate that.
Y'know, I've been thinking about spells and how they work in terms of offensive power recently. I think the general system is fine, it lets you do awesome things and it should, magic is cool. It's just that there's too many ways to completely screw your target in one way or another with them. A lot of the Conjuration school can just completely ignore SR, which really ought to be something universally applicable. Some spells give absolutely no save, which is incredibly harsh. Casters can amp up their casting stat to ludicrous levels, making even low level spells highly dangerous (probably why very few players ever take Heighten Spell). Some meta-magic feats carry outrageous penalties for the target if they fail a save. High ability scores grant potentially dozens of bonus spells every day. And to top it all off, magic users are the ones that get to make the magic items which non-casters are so ridiculously dependent on, magic items which can easily add re-usability or extra versatility to spells as well.
I think 4 things would fix a lot of this problem:
- First, make SR work against ALL spells. It will take a little tweaking for certain spells and creatures, but I believe this is very doable.
- Second, make all spells allow at least one saving throw of a thematically appropriate type. Not hard at all, really. There's some abilities out there which already force no save spells to provide you one.
- Third, for the bonus spells chart, you're capped at +1 at each spell slot level. No more of this "My super high Intelligence gives me 38 bonus spell slots each day!". A linear progression will make it easier to track and prepare caster stat blocks as well as making the choices of what spells you have a far more important choice.
- Fourth, and this is the big one, cut back on just how important your primary casting score is. To do this, you'd first look at if your primary casting ability score modifier is larger than your maximum spell slot level. If so, subtract the second number from the first and THAT is what you add to your spellcasting DC. Otherwise, you gain nothing to your spells DC.
Unfortunately dwarf fighters are too slow to fully make use of the fighter's second best class feature (the third is feats).
I think 4 things would fix a lot of this problem:
If you want a more tame magic system without being lame, just reflavor psionics as Rune magic.
I think 4 things would fix a lot of this problem:If you want a more tame magic system without being lame, just reflavor psionics as Rune magic.
That wouldn't address any of the issues in my earlier post, though.
Some ideas (mostly not original to me) that might help fighters. These are independent, but not mutually exclusive.
1. Increase skill points to 4 + INT bonus per level.
2. Make Acrobatics, Heal, and Perception class skills.
3. Fighters get Combat Expertise as a bonus feat at first level, even if they don't meet the prerequisite.
4. Fighters do not need to meet the prerequisites for any bonus feats they receive.
5. Combat maneuvers do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
6. Allow fighters to gain Evasion, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge in place of some of their bonus feats.
7. Put stacking limits on buffs; a target can only have 1 active buff spell or effect (from any source) at a time.
1. Agreed.
2. Acrobatics yes. Perception, maybe. Heal, why?3. Not all fighters want this, so not really necessary.
4. Agreed to an extent. When it comes to ability score bonuses, they should definitely be able to ignore that. As far as feat, skill rank, or BAB prereqs, that's another, more complicated matter.
5. Probably best covered through making feats more accessible and not an automatic thing.
6. Evasion isn't going to be that awesome an idea unless you do something about either A) fighter Reflex saves, or B) spell DCs in general. Uncanny Dodge is a good idea, though.
7. No offense dude, but that's nuts. I mean I agree on the general idea, we even use a 'buff slot' houserule in our games to limit excessive magic craziness. However, we limit it to 4 + 1/4 your total level for active spells. If everyone had the limit you propose going on them, it'd mean the party wizard couldn't Haste everyone or the bard couldn't give apply Good Hope to his friends without knocking out existing buffs like Air Walk, Life Bubble, Freedom of Movement, Holy Aura, or a slew of other favorites. Heck, simple things like Endure Elements suddenly become worthless because what do you want, that or a Blessing of Fervor? And that's not even getting into how rings or other magic items which provide these bonuses might be effected.
I don't get the point of complaining about not getting enough skills when the framework isn't designed that way. The class wasn't intended to be a skill master although a couple archetypes lend to it. This is just like saying bard sucks cause I want them to have 9 levels of spell progression. Paizo fix this. If you don't like the class as is then don't play it. Enough people do play it without complaints so why should they fix it for the noisy few?
No one complains about that because the Bard contributes well at higher levels, while the Fighter does not.
I don't get the point of complaining about not getting enough skills when the framework isn't designed that way. The class wasn't intended to be a skill master although a couple archetypes lend to it. This is just like saying bard sucks cause I want them to have 9 levels of spell progression. Paizo fix this. If you don't like the class as is then don't play it. Enough people do play it without complaints so why should they fix it for the noisy few?
The complaints come about because the framework is the problem, and problems ought to be fixed.
But at this point, there are options for a Fighter+ from any angle you want. So unless there are some amazing Fighter archetypes in the ACG, there really is no point in playing a Fighter.