We must wait. There may be hope, not only in the Advanced Class Guide, but also in Pathfinder Unchained.
I don't see the need to fix the Fighter. It has no thematic or mechanical niche that is not already done better using another class. This is especially true with the release of the ACG.
The Fighter is just obsolete. It made sense to have a Fighter class when your only other classes were Thief, Mage, and Priest. Now there are a bunch of other "Fighter+" classes for every conceivable angle.
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I dunno, I got some third party stuff and ever since my fighters have been pretty beast. They aren't creating demiplanes but will about murder anything 30ft away from them.
We must wait. There may be hope, not only in the Advanced Class Guide, but also in Pathfinder Unchained.
Martial Master, from the ACG, is pretty awesome.
It is a fighter archetype that trades Weapon Training and Weapon Mastery for the Brawler's full Martial Versatility class feature. The number of simultaneous feats are delayed compared to the Brawler, but I'm personally having a hard time wrapping my mind around the possibilities that arise from having access to 21 feats baseline (22 if you are human), plus another 5 feats that you can swap around as you please. Theoretically speaking, you could take whatever feats you wanted and then use Martial Mastery to give yourself Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization with whatever weapon you happen to be using at the time. You could also use it to qualify for whatever combat maneuver feats you want, whenever you wanted.
Also, it stacks with Lore Warden.
I dunno, I got some third party stuff and ever since my fighters have been pretty beast. They aren't creating demiplanes but will about murder anything 30ft away from them.If I'm going third party, I'm grabbing a Warder or maybe I'll go back to 3.5 and get me a Warblade.
Yes, because a dm allowing good third party will /clearly/ let you use any third party, even the broken ones. /sarcasm
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Yes, because Warblades were broken.Yes, because a dm allowing good third party will /clearly/ let you use any third party, even the broken ones. /sarcasmI dunno, I got some third party stuff and ever since my fighters have been pretty beast. They aren't creating demiplanes but will about murder anything 30ft away from them.If I'm going third party, I'm grabbing a Warder or maybe I'll go back to 3.5 and get me a Warblade.
As a warning, I'm insane. Most of the things I say have no correlation to reality.
Like this statement.
Oddly enough I'm not a fan of initiator classes. Partially because I don't like 'vancian fighting' (Instead I got a similar product that keyed off a stamina pool based on BAB) but I really wanted to fix existing classes than replace them.
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Fixing feats fixes the fighter
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Pretty much every time I see someone talk about pathfinder, and every time I play it, I find that pretty much every martial class lags behind spellcasters. I'm glad Monk and Rogue and Barbarian are getting reworked, as when I was plaing them, I had had hardly any fun at all compared to when I played casters.
I've seen it plenty of times before, people who work on the game respond that martials can't get cool abilities because its not realistic while in the same breath praising the reality-warping powers of mages.
It's actually starting to get quite tiring
mmmmmmmmm. fertile fields to graze on
Fixing feats fixes the fighter
So long as they're Fighter Only, otherwise anyone can take them. Putting good feats at the end of long chains is just a roundabout, bloated way of sort-of doing that.
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Fixing feats fixes the fighterSo long as they're Fighter Only, otherwise anyone can take them. Putting good feats at the end of long chains is just a roundabout, bloated way of sort-of doing that.
Not necessarily. Classes with bonus combat feats would gain way more power from fixed combat feats if they were better. I tried it out with introducing scaling combat feats and some replacement feats and although the melee classes that don't get combat feats were able to realize their builds much faster classes like Fighter which gets a lot of combat feats won out in a huge way. Especially since this freed him up to take unconventional feats that kept him relevant in late levels.
EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?
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Fixing feats fixes the fighterSo long as they're Fighter Only, otherwise anyone can take them. Putting good feats at the end of long chains is just a roundabout, bloated way of sort-of doing that.
If feats are truly fixed having double of them would be more than enough.
Gunslinger was the fix for the fighter, except they foo'pah'd by limiting it all to firearms.
Grit, Deeds, Daring-do (essentially fighter only feats /abilities) is it.
A gunslinger should simply have been a gunfighter.
All that grit and deeds stuff should have been retooled to be an upgraded fighter.
(and not lame stuff like starting a fire with my pistol a limited number of times per day)
EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?I think that's mostly a matter of taste. Personally, I don't want fighters to be super powered heroes, I want them to be super competent heroes. Put another way, I don't really want the Hulk or Superman, I want a high level fighter to be like Batman or Captain America or Green Arrow.
But those guys are unreasonable capable because either they have and arsenal of silver bullet answers, (Batman, Green Arrow) are way more interesting plot-wise so things are narratively stacked in their favor, (Batman, Captain America) or are functionally more impressive than their limits say they are. (All of them) To simulate that kind of narrative favoritism they'd have to have exclusive access to a hero point-like system of luck points. To simulate the arsenal they'd have to have access to fantastical gear that they can produce themselves that favors physical stats, feat access or BAB.
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the other thing that is wrong with the martials in general is impatient caster characters who whined and whined until the magic system became "Pew pew Pew"
Martial and Magic worked when spells (particularly good ones) took a while to get off, and were easily disrupted.
Now there is too much movement and too many actions for a spell caster in what is essentially the same time to take a ninja to buck a couple of shuriken.
In my mind, I think all spell casters must go to rodeo auctioneer school, prior to attaining level 1.
At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?
He's a non-magical fellow who lives in a magical world, and fights on a magical battlefield for a living. Adventuring is a ruthlessly Darwinian pastime, so high level Fighters would necessarily have solid, class-based counters and resistances to magic and magic-users.
One way to do that is to give him a Grit pool, and Deeds that help him do what I've described.
The other task is to make the Fighter useful when the problem can't be solved by hitting it. This must also take into account that he's a non-magical fellow in a magical world, so the only thing that "qualifies" (doesn't turn him into a spellcaster) would be to give him massive bonuses to Skills. Something on par with what the Bard gets, though in different areas.
EDIT: At this point I want to ask; What do people think that I fighter should be doing mechanically? Whenever fighter fixes come up the most agreed upon thing are minor things like a second good save, more skill points, better combat feats, exclusive combat feats. One product that I picked up that I haven't used had feats that allowed fighters to hold their breath for DAYS. Is this what should be going on?While stuff like that would be a bonus, that's certainly a niche. A fighter, if you read the fluff and know the background, was supposed to be a leader of men. Not just a combat master in and of himself, but a man who commanded a fortress and legions of troops.
While that certainly isn't in fitting with the current style of gameplay, leadership for the most part banned and all, It would behoove him to be able to influence his allies. Give them bonuses, almost like a bard does. Directional commands and such that give bonuses to skill checks, certain saves, or combat capabilities like the tactical acumen.
He should be more skilled (4+), a perceptive person by his very freaking nature. He should, by sheer resilience, be able to shrug off chunks of damage. Let loose terrifying cries that send enemies running.
I.e. the fighter should be a tactical commander, not another mook with a sword. Problem is they built a new class to do what the original fighter was supposed to be.
What you're describing can be fulfilled using the Cavalier. There is not much need to expend effort to improve the Fighter's limited capabilities when there is already another class that has done so.
The problem is that the Fighter's design is very much outdated. To fix it properly requires a complete overhaul, in which it begins to look like another class. Since newer classes have already picked up the Fighter's chassis and improved on it and now can fulfill its role, I simply don't see any need to do so.
I've seen two references to Grit-like pool not including my previous sentence, " To simulate that kind of narrative favoritism they'd have to have exclusive access to a hero point-like system of luck points."
So another question; What if Fighter had a Charisma-based (or other thing-based) pool of points simulating courage that functioned like grit/panache and refilled on high risk tactics? What would those do?
The Battlelord in the book of Collective Influence makes a great Fighter replacement.
Rogue and Monk confirmed for unchained. Isn't this thread to complain about fighter lacking representation
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Some ideas off the top of my head. No real numbers for these, since that would come as fine-tuning.
Uncommon Valor:
As long as the Fighter has at least one Grit point, it grants a scaling bonus to Will saves against mind-affecting effects.
If the Fighter fails a save against a mind-affecting effect, he may choose to automatically pass the save by expending all remaining Grit.
Go To Ground:
The Fighter may choose to spend one Grit point and an Immediate Action to go prone when targeted by a ranged attack roll, or an effect that allows a Reflex save. He gains a scaling bonus to his AC and Reflex save until the beginning of his next turn.
If the attack still hits him or his Reflex save still fails, he may choose to expend all remaining Grit to automatically pass the save, or make the triggering attack miss. He is still rendered prone at the end of this action.
Learned That The Hard Way:
Choose two of the following skills: Perception, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Ride, Escape Artist, Knowledge (choose one), Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device. As long as the Fighter has at least one Grit point, he may roll a Profession: Soldier check in place of the chosen skills. At certain level intervals, he may choose another skill from the list.
When rolling a Profession: Soldier check, the Fighter may choose to spend one Grit point to roll twice and take the higher of the two dice.
Intervention:
If an ally is targeted by an attack roll, the Fighter may spend one Grit point to move up to his speed in a straight line towards that ally as an Immediate Action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the Fighter reaches adjacency with the ally, the triggering attack roll is rolled against the Fighter's AC. If it still hits, it affects the ally as normal.
Alternately, if an ally is caught in the area of effect of an Instantaneous spell or SLA, the Fighter may spend one Grit point to move up to his speed in a straight line towards that ally as an Immediate Action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the Fighter reaches adjacency with the ally, he may negate the triggering effect on that ally by taking the effect on himself, even if the Fighter is not himself inside the area of effect. He may roll saving throws against the effect as normal.
In either case, he may use the Go To Ground Deed as part of the same Immediate Action, spending another Grit point to do so. However, both the Fighter and his ally are rendered prone.
Rapid Blitz:
By spending one Grit point and a Swift Action, the Fighter gains the Pounce special rule until the end of his turn.
Stalwart:
Similar to the Inquisitor ability, except it works only while in Medium or Heavy Armor. If the Fighter makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an effect that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely. This ability can only be used if the Fighter is wearing medium or heavy armor. A helpless Fighter does not gain the benefit of the stalwart ability.
Pierce Magical Concealment (copied from the Pierce Magical Concealment feat from 3.5):
By spending one Grit point, as a Swift action you disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, and spells used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example). This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Pierce Magical Protection (copied from the Pierce Magical Protection feat from 3.5):
By spending one Grit point, as a standard action you can make a melee attack that ignores any bonuses to Armor Class granted by spells (including spell trigger or spell completion effects created by magic items such as wands or potions). If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class.
Cheat Death:
As the Gunslinger / Swashbuckler Deed. If you would normally be KO'ed by an attack, spend all remaining Grit to be left at 1 HP instead.
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Why not a simple fix. Make him the master of feats. In the lines for fighter bonus feats, add "When taking a bonus feat the fighter can ignore all pre-requisites of the chosen feat"
It would give them great versatility and open up some fun builds that only a fighter could achieve.
In light of PF Unchained, my hopes are soaring high at the moment; all I wanted was a rogue that was vaguely playable and now I'm hearing that several other classes are getting tuned up as well. I really hope this is the book I have been hoping for, but I'm sure everyone will find something missing. Personally, I never felt fighters were under-powered, just a bit lacking in flavor and needing ridiculous feats to even make an attept at one good feat.
A couple of things. First, bringing martials up to speed is going to require a two-part effort: a push and pull if you will.
-pulling up the martials a bit
-pushing down the casters a bit
One or the other is not going to cut it. You're going to need a bit of both in combination, that way you can address issues on both ends and not have to go too far with one or another.
One thing I've been considering about fighters is making them more versatile by letting them "switch out" a portion of their most recently gained bonus feats each day like some of the other classes get with their specialty feats. Consider it "on the job training", if you will. This would have the added benefit of giving the fighter a few "try before you buy" sort of experience.
A partial solution to the caster over-versatility issue I was pondering was also something to make them a bit more thematic (an idea shamelessly stolen from somebody else's game I heard about). Now, this is probably solely a homebrew solution since it would require too much negotiation between the player and the DM (requiring some effort, especially for a mechanics heavy game like PF). But anyway, the thought was to give each spellcaster a "theme", a theme that governed (and to a certain extent, restricted), what the spellcaster could take relating to spells and feats that interacted with their magic (spell focus, etc.)
So for example, if a guy chose "sound caster" for his theme, he could learn spells that deal with sound/hearing. So sonic spells like shout are in, and maybe some language-dependent spells like suggestion. Certain other spells could ostensibly also be modified to fit the theme, like fireball might become a sonic-ball (borrowing the damage penalty Psionics Unleashed gives its energy powers for using sonic energy damage) and removing the "set things on fire" effect, possibly changing it to a minor sound related effect. (A little bit more damage to crystalline objects/creatures?) And we borrow a few other spells here and there to fill out that thematic spell list (sound burst perhaps.)
Anyway, the goal of this would be to narrow the scope and focus of the spellcasters while at the same time making them more flavorful and giving the player more input into how their magic works. However, this would be really fuzzy and require a lot of guestimation/back and forth negotiation, so I wouldn't think it would work as far as an official game answer. Purely homebrew/house rule stuff here.
Agreed, essentially a high level fighter is a really good one-trick pony. Not to start a flame war but the rogue has it even worse, you need everything to line up like an eclipse before they are even effective.
Y'know, the most fun I had with a fighter was an alchemical archer maneuver guy. I made my own alchemical arrows and had enough INT to pump out a lot of skills and had a toolbox full of solutions.
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Some time ago, I wrote a full set of grit-like powers for fighters, granting cool abilities covering pretty much any type of weapons you could fight with as a fighter : general, circumstancial, and weapon-based abilities (mounted, ranged, shield, free hand, two-handed...).
We tested them in our group and it granted a much needed touch of heroism and tactical insight when playing a fighter ! I think the class would benefit from such a feature, much like gunslingers have grit and deeds.
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Agreed, essentially a high level fighter is a really good one-trick pony. Not to start a flame war but the rogue has it even worse, you need everything to line up like an eclipse before they are even effective.
"No Mr. BBEG I expect you to take moderate damage! Bwahahahahaha!"
I am constantly sad at how bad fighters are compared to other classes. I was talking about how the Barbarian has Perception and acrobatics while on top of it all has 4+int for skill checks... the sadness.
I am constantly sad at how bad fighters are compared to other classes. I was talking about how the Barbarian has Perception and acrobatics while on top of it all has 4+int for skill checks... the sadness.
You think that's bad? Pathfinder took away jumping as a class skill from both the fighter AND the ranger (yep, they both had it in 3.X), but left it for the freaking bard! Now granted, class skills don't mean nearly as much as they did in 3.X but still, how hard would it have been to give those two classes Acrobatics as a class skill? Would it really have been mechanically overpowered or thematically inappropriate? The skills system, among other things, needs a serious looking at, hopefully something we'll get in Pathfinder Unchained.
I always begged for house rules to get tumble for my fighter in 3.5, but those days are over, and all I have left is pathfinder. At least I don't have to increase Acrobatics at a rate of .5 anymore.