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About one page per class, making up 1-2 archetypes and some option for others (rage powers only for barbarian, with only one good power with a level 6 and rp prerequisite). There is a couple options people think are good, like the mutagen fighter or exploit wizard, but it was mostly ineffectual.So then the majority of the book is still the new classes? :( Sounds like I might just have to get the archetypes off of d20pfsrd or Nethys then... which is sad, I want to support Paizo when I can, but I just can't justify buying an entire book that I am going to more than likely completely ignore 90% of it.
I'm just throwing this out there.. the book is called the advanced CLASS guide...
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I'm just throwing this out there.. the book is called the advanced CLASS guide...About one page per class, making up 1-2 archetypes and some option for others (rage powers only for barbarian, with only one good power with a level 6 and rp prerequisite). There is a couple options people think are good, like the mutagen fighter or exploit wizard, but it was mostly ineffectual.So then the majority of the book is still the new classes? :( Sounds like I might just have to get the archetypes off of d20pfsrd or Nethys then... which is sad, I want to support Paizo when I can, but I just can't justify buying an entire book that I am going to more than likely completely ignore 90% of it.
YOUR LOGIC HAS NO PLACE HERE!!!
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I'm just throwing this out there.. the book is called the advanced CLASS guide...
Ooh.
An Advanced Archetype Guide sounds like a logical next step, 'tho.
Perhaps with whacky 'advanced' concepts like multi-class Archetypes and Prestige Class Archetypes and Archetypes that 'break the rules' and adjust HD and BAB and Saves...
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I'm just throwing this out there.. the book is called the advanced CLASS guide...Ooh.
An Advanced Archetype Guide sounds like a logical next step, 'tho.
Perhaps with whacky 'advanced' concepts like multi-class Archetypes and Prestige Class Archetypes and Archetypes that 'break the rules' and adjust HD and BAB and Saves...
I'd buy it. I thought the whole point of archetypes were to make new classes out of the old. But then the new classes piled in.
Picaroon really disappoints me.
Melee shooter is inadequately prohibitive for TWF with a gun in the offhand... which means that nine times out of ten I'm just gonna take Sword and Pistol anyways, so you lose Riposte and Parry for nothing.
Lightning Reload has the same problem, burning panache to partially reload a weapon once per turn isn't good enough to prevent people from just stacking cartridges and the feat, which means you end up losing bleeding wound for nothing.
Then the archetype gives you TWF support ... without changing the fact that a bunch of your core options don't work if you're fighting with a second weapon.
Then to top it all off, despite supposedly being a TWF with a pistol archetype... it doesn't actually give you anything to do with your gun or provide any real support for it offensively (other than the free TWF).
I really don't know why Paizo seems to dislike this (frankly extremely iconic) combat style... the Buccaneer gunslinger has almost as many problems with it as well.
Go figure that the class that has "Gunslinger" listed as one of its parent class is terrible with firearms.
I'm just throwing this out there.. the book is called the advanced CLASS guide...
His complaint is also inaccurate: The new class section of the book is only 68 of the 257 total pages. 71 if you count FCB and 106 if you count archetypes for the new classes. Still less than half the book.
This:
The editing is a definite problem.
I mean, I'm going through the archetypes chapter right now looking for issues, and I'm on p. 107 (so not even done yet), and I've only gone more than two pages without an error once, and have more than 20 problems. That's more than one every two pages on average, and getting perilously close to an average of one per page.
The Classes chapter had fewer, but still had around a dozen problems, so an average of more than one per Class.
Now, some of these problems are just typos, and others are somewhat subjective...but look at the number of them. There shouldn't be almost a problem every three pages in the first hundred pages of a rulebook. That's not okay.
Now, this is an aberration from Paizo's usual editing quality (which, while not perfect, is loads better than this), and everyone should be allowed a mistake now and then, so switching games is likely really premature...but this is a distinct problem.
And all that isn't counting things like archetypes that are maybe too weak, just legitimate issues with rules or wording being unclear, making no sense, or being inconsistent between one place and another.
Also the book has the wrong logo.
And slashing grace were they even admit that they messed up.And as pointed out Before, they reprint feats from the Core book, because some new classes get access to class features from the Core book. I think this could have been handled differently.
I know it is highly subjective, but overall I think the book is a disappointment. Bad editing, lack of support for a lot of the core classes, complicated/unclear writings, and new the classes stealing the thunder from the core classes.
I’m especially disappointed in the Swashbuckler and Warpriest. At this stage I can’t say if the Warpriest is balanced or not, but it isn’t what people have been asking for and it is not what was promised at first.
Out of all the classes in the book the Swashbuckler has been the most demanded class of all. People have wanted mobile, charismatic, smart, skilled, a full BAB class, using dex and frankly the class is not mobile in any way. She is still forced to stand still and full attack. Even Targeted Strike prevents her from moving for than 5 feet. Not to mention that the dex to damage feat doesn’t even apply to rapiers and as of now you can’t even use it with light weapons which is odd since pretty much all abilities using a melee weapon require a “light or one-handed piercing melee weapon”.
Also, to me, how things are written in the book makes a lot of stuff is unclear. The book at times feels like a rush job.
Just to be clear, my being disappointed in the book does not mean the book is without merits. There are still some nice new classes in the book, but I have higher expectation from Paizo than this.
Also, to me, how things are written in the book makes a lot of stuff is unclear. The book at times feels like a rush job.
Just to be clear, my being disappointed in the book does not mean the book is without merits. There are still some nice new classes in the book, but I have higher expectation from Paizo than this.
I agree it 100% feels like the whole book just got pushed out the door for Gencon. Which is a shame. It seems like this could have been an awesome book with just a bit of polish and effort. What we got was an ok book with some stand outs and just as many (if not more) 'what the hell were they thinking?' moments.
The only sticking point is that Slashing Grace, as written, doesn't work for Light weapons. So you have to do one of the following:
- Convince your DM to allow Slashing Grace to include Rapiers and Light Weapons.
There are few weapons it works on but there are some. Aldori duelling sword is one, the whip another. And if I remember there is a feat to deal slashing damage with the rapier.
Just because only swashbucklers can use it with the sawtooth sabres doesn't mean it is a bad feat.
I think the point redward was trying to make is that there is a difference between editing/proofreading 800 pages of a novel and 800 pages of game rules.
It's like comparing bicycle maintenance with motorcycle maintenance. They have a lot in common, but can't be held to exactly the same standard.
Not really, at least in this case.
Typos and clear mistakes in grammar and so forth are exactly the same. And there are plenty of those to go around in addition to the more uniue RPG errors.
Fun fact: The novel (or trilogy of novels) with the most editing errors and typos in it I ever read was published by an RPG company. The books are good enough that I read them several times. But it is always something between fun and hard to read when I do.
The only sticking point is that Slashing Grace, as written, doesn't work for Light weapons. So you have to do one of the following:
- Convince your DM to allow Slashing Grace to include Rapiers and Light Weapons.
There are few weapons it works on but there are some. Aldori duelling sword is one, the whip another. And if I remember there is a feat to deal slashing damage with the rapier.
Just because only swashbucklers can use it with the sawtooth sabres doesn't mean it is a bad feat.
You can gain dex to damage for battle axes but not daggers.... yes it is a badly written feat...
The Dex to damage part was actually just slapped onto the feat later in development. They even said they only added it because the feat felt a little weak otherwise...
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The big thing is, the things that are good in this book are really good. Sacred Huntmaster, Bolt Ace, and Daring Champion are all awesome archetypes that build on existing classes. There's some other archetypes that are technically for the new classes but build heavily on familiar mechanics, like the Vanguard, that I would also recommend.
Even if you're turned off by the editing and uninterested in the new core classes, it's probably worth picking up the .pdf.
The nice thing about that is that your copy will always be up to date with the latest edits and travels easily with you wherever you go :)
Bolt Ace is good, but you strangely get battered gun/gunsmithing, but the flavor says you don't use guns!?
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Bolt Ace is good, but you strangely get battered gun/gunsmithing, but the flavor says you don't use guns!?The big thing is, the things that are good in this book are really good. Sacred Huntmaster, Bolt Ace, and Daring Champion are all awesome archetypes that build on existing classes. There's some other archetypes that are technically for the new classes but build heavily on familiar mechanics, like the Vanguard, that I would also recommend.
Even if you're turned off by the editing and uninterested in the new core classes, it's probably worth picking up the .pdf.
The nice thing about that is that your copy will always be up to date with the latest edits and travels easily with you wherever you go :)
I figure I'll just tuck that pistol with some alchemical cartridges into my boot for emergencies.......
It is a little strange, but I mentioned previously that in a way it also makes for a better fit with the idea of a class that knows how to use a gun in a world where the actual devices and materials are extremely rare. Most of the time you shoot people with a big-ass crossbow, but you've got the boomstick tucked away for those occasions when whipping it out is appropriate.
It's probably a mistake, but it's one I can roll with.
Really weird, right? Love it anyway but hope it gets some clarification in the coming weeks. As is, can't you upgrade the battered firearm to master work, sell it off for half value of a masterwork firearm and buy yourself a matched set of crossbows? At least it's a use for the features :PBolt Ace is good, but you strangely get battered gun/gunsmithing, but the flavor says you don't use guns!?The big thing is, the things that are good in this book are really good. Sacred Huntmaster, Bolt Ace, and Daring Champion are all awesome archetypes that build on existing classes. There's some other archetypes that are technically for the new classes but build heavily on familiar mechanics, like the Vanguard, that I would also recommend.
Even if you're turned off by the editing and uninterested in the new core classes, it's probably worth picking up the .pdf.
The nice thing about that is that your copy will always be up to date with the latest edits and travels easily with you wherever you go :)
Why not buy a Heavy Repeating Crossbow (sadly no difference but damage between light/heavy repeaters).
Then till you have multiple attacks a round, you get no reload issues.
I figure I'll just tuck that pistol with some alchemical cartridges into my boot for emergencies.......It is a little strange, but I mentioned previously that in a way it also makes for a better fit with the idea of a class that knows how to use a gun in a world where the actual devices and materials are extremely rare. Most of the time you shoot people with a big-ass crossbow, but you've got the boomstick tucked away for those occasions when whipping it out is appropriate.
It's probably a mistake, but it's one I can roll with.
That makes logical sense, but the Bolt Ace default fluff seems to imply that they look down on regular gunslingers.
Biggest problem I have with bolt ace is that some of its deeds end up being redundant with feats you're probably gonna take anyways.
Picaroon Swasbuckler has the same issue, giving you crappy replacement deeds that aren't actually good enough to prevent you from taking the relevant feat
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That makes logical sense, but the Bolt Ace default fluff seems to imply that they look down on regular gunslingers.
Biggest problem I have with bolt ace is that some of its deeds end up being redundant with feats you're probably gonna take anyways.
It really depends on your build. For a weapon like the double crossbow that doesn't get the free action reload from Crossbow Mastery, you're actually getting the full benefits of just about everything. Or you can save yourself some feats.
What I thought was weird is that the established sequence for reload is full-round, standard, move, free, but Bolt Ace added swift into the sequence, meaning that without Crossbow Master, some crossbows still won't be able to full attack...
It really depends on your build. For a weapon like the double crossbow that doesn't get the free action reload from Crossbow Mastery, you're actually getting the full benefits of just about everything. Or you can save yourself some feats.What I thought was weird is that the established sequence for reload is full-round, standard, move, free, but Bolt Ace added swift into the sequence, meaning that without Crossbow Master, some crossbows still won't be able to full attack...
I was looking at heavy crossbow when I was talking personally, since that's the sort of weapon I've always been interested here. Crossbow mastery means that the deeds that speed up reloading and the deed that stops me from provoking are both useless.
The fact that Vigilant Shooter and Inexplicable reload don't come online until 11 means I'm probably gonna take Crossbow Mastery even if I'm using a light crossbow though, since I don't want to have to wait that long.
And ditto with picaroon: The reload deed costs 1 panache and is only one barrel once per turn and the nonprovoking deed costs panache and only works once too. So I'm still gonna take Rapid Reload/cartridges and Sword and Pistol. Just means you lose parry/riposte and bleeding wound for nothing.
I just feel like if these archetypes that support nonstandard weapons are gonna be a thing they either need to go all in and actually replace the necessary feats or expect the feats to be taken and provide other support. Picaroon is obviously the much worse of the two though.
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I was looking at heavy crossbow when I was talking personally, since that's the sort of weapon I've always been interested here. Crossbow mastery means that the deeds that speed up reloading and the deed that stops me from provoking are both useless.
The fact that Vigilant Shooter and Inexplicable reload don't come online until 11 means I'm probably gonna take Crossbow Mastery even if I'm using a light crossbow though, since I don't want to have to wait that long.
And ditto with picaroon: The reload deed costs 1 panache and is only one barrel once per turn and the nonprovoking deed costs panache and only works once too. So I'm still gonna take Rapid Reload/cartridges and Sword and Pistol. Just means you lose parry/riposte and bleeding wound for nothing.
I just feel like if these archetypes that support nonstandard weapons are gonna be a thing they either need to go all in and actually replace the necessary feats or expect the feats to be taken and provide other support. Picaroon is obviously the much worse of the two though.
Agreed on Picaroon. Seems like you're basically trading away the SB's best features so you can fire a gun once a round... But there's always been a disassociation between the mechanics supporting firearms themselves and the firearm-wielding classes. Much like how very few builds ever use the Lightning Reload Deed of the core Gunslinger class, there's always these deeds that seem to assume you won't use any of the superior feats, items, archetypes, etc. provided in the same section.
Agreed on Picaroon. Seems like you're basically trading away the SB's best features so you can fire a gun once a round... But there's always been a disassociation between the mechanics supporting firearms themselves and the firearm-wielding classes. Much like how very few builds ever use the Lightning Reload Deed of the core Gunslinger class, there's always these deeds that seem to assume you won't use any of the superior feats, items, archetypes, etc. provided in the same section.
Yeah I guess one thing in the bolt ace's favor is that even if you aren't using vigilant shooter or inexplicable reload they're replacing stuff that isn't super important anyways.
For Picaroon it really hurts because Riposte and Bleeding Wound are actually fairly nice tools.
And the fact that you get TWF support without changing precise strike isn't very fun either.
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While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?
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While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?
How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
'Dishonorable' combat is something PF has historically considered Chaotic for the most part.
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While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
It's the whole package. The name "Wildcat" doesn't exactly scream Lawful, and Dirty Tricks kind of smack of "cheating" or doing things that civilized people generally agree are not kosher. The fluff and mechanics of the class all seem to lean the opposite direction of the Lawful alignment requirement.
'Dishonorable' combat is something PF has historically considered Chaotic for the most part.While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
Citation? I'm genuinely curious about this one.
All I really have to say is 'The Paladin', but ...
The descriptions of alignment say, amongst other things, that "Law implies honor".
"Lawful good combines honor with compassion."
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Did anybody else get really, unreasonably happy to see Stabby Bob the Antipaladin in the last chapter, doing what he loves and loving what he does?
Did anybody else get really, unreasonably happy to see Stabby Bob the Antipaladin in the last chapter, doing what he loves and loving what he does?
Please tell me that's what we're naming the antipaladin 'iconic'!!!!!
perusing over the ACG stuff on pfsrd.... I found nothing that made me knee-jerk in a 'omg broke' way.
I did knee-jerk at Blood Arcanist in a "Why would I ever want to play this!?" kind of way... Then I thought about it... And now I've been working on statting up an Android Blood Arcanist with the Nanite Bloodline with EH Serpentine (IEH with Envenomed if allowed by the table's gm, so 2 slightly diff builds), because I really really like the whole poison thing between the nanites and the snake venom. Fun times...
The one "Extra X" feat in the entire game of Pathfinder that you cannot take multiple times is extra martial flexibility.
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The one "Extra X" feat in the entire game of Pathfinder that you cannot take multiple times is extra martial flexibility.
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And despite its class levels giving you early access to the chain, Brawlers can't actually Flurry with Pummeling Style. The feat works with Flurry of Blows or Full Attacks and Brawler's Flurry doesn't have a "functions as" clause.
The one "Extra X" feat in the entire game of Pathfinder that you cannot take multiple times is extra martial flexibility.
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Extra Channel can only be taken once as well.
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And despite its class levels giving you early access to the chain, Brawlers can't actually Flurry with Pummeling Style. The feat works with Flurry of Blows or Full Attacks and Brawler's Flurry doesn't have a "functions as" clause.The one "Extra X" feat in the entire game of Pathfinder that you cannot take multiple times is extra martial flexibility.
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It's just a full attack using TWF, isn't it? I don't see why they couldn't use it, because Pummeling Style specifies that you can use it to make a full attack action.
'Dishonorable' combat is something PF has historically considered Chaotic for the most part.While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
It is well said that when lives are at stake, only a fool or a desperate man fights on even odds. Even Paladins should understand that basic tenet of combat.
Extra Channel can only be taken once as well.The one "Extra X" feat in the entire game of Pathfinder that you cannot take multiple times is extra martial flexibility.
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Hmmmmm I'm actually less perturbed now thanks.
It's just a full attack using TWF, isn't it? I don't see why they couldn't use it, because Pummeling Style specifies that you can use it to make a full attack action.
You could argue that, but it has the exact same verbage as Flurry which apparently is considered separate from a full attack.
It is well said that when lives are at stake, only a fool or a desperate man fights on even odds. Even Paladins should understand that basic tenet of combat.'Dishonorable' combat is something PF has historically considered Chaotic for the most part.While I am the last person to actually care about alignment restrictions, does it confuse anybody else that the Monk's Wildcat archetype, which specializes in Dirty Tricks, doesn't lose the Lawful restriction?How are Dirty Tricks non-Lawful? They seem sorta a hallmark of LE, and there's no reason a LG or LN character couldn't use them.
You give the typical Paladin too much credit.
I just got the book today.
First thing I noticed on a leaf through: Song of the Fallen looks like a useful way to get a second chance to use Breath of Life.