Spirit Totem does have the cool ability of giving a miss chance to all attackers who are not adjacent to the Barbarian.
The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
No feats let you change your pc that much like some rage powers.Unlike a pouncing barbarian, the mounted skirmisher does not have to move in a straight line.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.
Good to see that fighters can get something akin to pounce, too. But I don't see what this has in common with my statement that there are more different ways to buiold a barbarian than there are to build a fighter.
Is it possible, that you missread my posting? It was not about charging but changing.
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No feats let you change your pc that much like some rage powers.Unlike a pouncing barbarian, the mounted skirmisher does not have to move in a straight line.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.
Good to see that fighters can get something akin to pounce, too. But I don't see what this has in common with my statement that there are more different ways to buiold a barbarian than there are to build a fighter.
Is it possible, that you missread my posting? It was not about charging but changing.
I hit reply on the wrong comment.
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The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
Give your Lore Warden 2 levels of Rogue: nearly every skill in the game as a class skill + the trap spotter talent & evasion.
I keep applying to WotR recruitment with threads with Cythraul, or similar characters. I usually have the stated intention of taking a couple of rogue levels.
No luck to date.
The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
What you're saying here is that Fighters have little incentive to stay Fighter, because the class features are so poor.
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What you're saying here is that Fighters have little incentive to stay Fighter, because the class features are so poor.The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
No, only that they synergize better with other classes when they do dip a couple of levels in something else.
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i diagree.... agood grapple (greater, rapid etc) is viable at any level. true, not vs any foe.... but very useful.
and barbarian got str surge, but without the improve feats he will wat many AOO....
(and barbarian dont have feat to spare.)
Actually, yeah, they do. You could build an effective barbarian on half of your usual feats. Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Dazing Assault. Done. That leaves 5 feats unaccounted for, so if you really want to, you can pick up things like Extra Rage Power, or various maneuver feats. If you want, you can take Heavy Armor Proficiency and grab a mithral suit of plate and some AC-boosting rage powers and just tank the AoO (they have to hit you), which might be a tactical way of wasting your enemies' AoOs so your party can get in.
If you take Come and Get Me, you can basically punish your enemy for taking AoOs on you anyway. So either your enemy doesn't take their AoO, and you succeed on your Combat Maneuver, or your enemy does, and you smash their face in. >_>
And the funniest thing? Come and get me resolves before the enemy's AoO, which means you could run up, attempt a combat maneuver, provoke, then with your AoO, strength surge and DISARM them as part of your AoO, which against most foes is going to wreck their AoO anyway. That may have been your whole plan to begin with!
Also, funny fact...Paladins and Rangers both get auto-confirm crits as class features. Paladins get it at 4th level. :P
Also, funny fact...Paladins and Rangers both get auto-confirm crits as class features. Paladins get it at 4th level. :PBless Weapon is pretty nice, though it is against evil foes only.
Those tend to be the worst of them, no? Seriously, which would you consider more of a threat to you? A CR 7 erinyes, or a CR 7 fire elemental?
It's no secret that the most common alignment in the game is evil. Paizo seems to have some sort of raging lust for slapping the EVIL alignment on everything by principle.
The lore warden is my favorite fighter archetype, its make me sad that it was(is?) considered bad designed. I wonder how many great ideas for fighter were rejected just to not have more lorewarden-like archetypes.
Yeah...imagine how many good fighters wound up on the cutting room floor. :(
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The lore warden is my favorite fighter archetype, its make me sad that it was(is?) considered bad designed. I wonder how many great ideas for fighter were rejected just to not have more lorewarden-like archetypes.
In fairness, it is poorly designed. It's unambiguously better than core Fighter...and that's poor Archetype design. Now, given how awful core Fighters are, that's also what makes it worth using...but it's not an inaccurate statement to say that Lore Warden is bad design.
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The fighter does multi-class better than the barbarian.
Fighter loses out on some bonus feats, but gains more.
Barbarian loses rage rounds, stronger rages, rage powers, and other class abilities.
To restate this
"The fighter multiclasses better. Because "
If you have weaker class features and get approximately the same amount of class features and levels, then you are a weaker class.
In short Fighter generally < Barbarian.
I broke down Fighter class features Here.
I think it is pretty telling that the Fighter's main class feature "Feats" is something that the Barbarian in most builds trades for his class feature "Rage Powers" with a smile due to the fact that generally there are enough rage powers that are better than any alternative feat mathematically to do so.
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The lore warden is my favorite fighter archetype, its make me sad that it was(is?) considered bad designed. I wonder how many great ideas for fighter were rejected just to not have more lorewarden-like archetypes.In fairness, it is poorly designed. It's unambiguously better than core Fighter...and that's poor Archetype design. Now, given how awful core Fighters are, that's also what makes it worth using...but it's not an inaccurate statement to say that Lore Warden is bad design.
I dont see any problem with "patching" weaker classes with better archetypes. It worked for the Monk.
Just want to ask if witch hunter is being remembered.
At high level even the things that are supposed to go ERMAGAHD I FULL ATTACK have some form of SLA. Witch Hunter at level 20 is a +6 to damage against very nearly every everything in the game at that point with no cost beyond a rage power.
Lets not forget that Barbarians can take Extra Rage Power as a feat. This makes the Barbarians level up feats more valuable then the Fighters since Rage Powers are better then a Feat.
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The lore warden is my favorite fighter archetype, its make me sad that it was(is?) considered bad designed. I wonder how many great ideas for fighter were rejected just to not have more lorewarden-like archetypes.In fairness, it is poorly designed. It's unambiguously better than core Fighter...and that's poor Archetype design. Now, given how awful core Fighters are, that's also what makes it worth using...but it's not an inaccurate statement to say that Lore Warden is bad design.
Gotta disagree here. Bad design is making options intentionally ineffective.
i.e.: Monte Cook's idea of good card/bad card game design is awful and should die in fire!
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I disagree. The designer saw some probelms, and worked to fixed them.
Very possibly, but if so they likely went about it in something of the wrong way.
If we take that as a mesaure of poorly desgned, post core barbarian, ranges and paladins are horrible. Slayer and ivestigator should never get printed, remove zen archers, soheis and other 90% of monks arcehtypes and every style feat from the game.
Is that is the measure, then I am not sure how much of the work of paizo have to be considered good designed and balanced(Specially taken into consideration that a lot of optiosn are horrible underpowered).
You're profoundly misunderstanding my point. My point is not that Lore Wardens aren't fun to play, or are too powerful, or that things should all be brought down to the Fighter's level. To the contrary, I'm all for a Fighter revamp that actually makes them worth playing, and feel that Lore Wardens are an excellent step in that direction.
I'm speaking purely from a technical perspective (as was the Paizo staffer cited) that what Lore Warden gives up is in no way balanced with what they receive. They give up the first +1 from Bravery for a full Feat, and one that ignores prerequisites, they give up one level of Armor Training for +8 to CMB and CMD. And so on and so forth. Nothing they give up is remotely as good as what they receive for it. It's not a balanced Archetype with existing Fighters by any measure, and it really might as well be a new class altogether. That's...generally poor archetype design in the technical sense. Which is what the Paizo staffer you mentioned was discussing, as was I. Lore Warden is a better class than Fighter. That doesn't make it a well designed Fighter archetype.
To draw an analogy, if you're asked to design a handgun and come back with an assault rifle design labeled 'handgun' which you sell for handgun prices...you have made a very poor handgun in a technical (and likely an economic) sense. The fact that it's a better weapon in many ways is irrelevant to that fact.
I dont see any problem with "patching" weaker classes with better archetypes. It worked for the Monk.
The Monk archetypes, while excellent, replace equivalent class features with equivalent class features, they improve Monk so vastly because core Monk's features lack synergy on a profound level, not because the features they give are objectively better. The same is not true of Lore Warden. Not at all.
Gotta disagree here. Bad design is making options intentionally ineffective.
I didn't say anywhere that the core Fighter was good design...just that, technically, the idea of the Lore Warden also being bad dsign was correct. Which it is.
i.e.: Monte Cook's idea of good card/bad card game design is awful and should die in fire!
Oh, agreed.
i.e.: Monte Cook's idea of good card/bad card game design is awful and should die in fire!
I don't see why water balloons need to be effective, but they could at least be cheaper or provide interesting effects (like making the foe wet and weaker to cold damage).
All feats should be roughly equal. But they shouldn't be equal for all builds.
An entire classes features should be equivalent to another classes features when compared in total, but individual class features do not need to be equal. It's why I don't have a problem with bravery, I have a problem with the fighter kit.
I didn't say anywhere that the core Fighter was good design...just that, technically, the idea of the Lore Warden also being bad dsign was correct. Which it is.
I get what you're saying, I really do. If the class was effective or balanced, you'd have a point.
But Fighter is a deeply flawed and extremely limited class. And since Paizo is not willing to errata it into something useful, using archetypes to try and make the class better is acceptable.
Better have an archetype that outperforms the base class than have a class that is completely pointless. At least Lore Warden adds something to Fighter.
IMO, options should be balanced around what's is balanced, not around other badly design options.
I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
In any case, Superstition has bad stuff to go along with the good. Just counted the Good is not fair.
But Fighter is a deeply flawed and extremely limited class. .
In your opinion.
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The barbarian (unless armored hulk) will not have more AC until the mid levels, and at level 20 the fighter do more damage on full attacks. But yeah, the barbarian just win the race.So with this we can say that assuming equal levels of min-max
Barbarians have
More dmg than a fighter
Better saves
More hp
Higher ac
More skill points
Better skills
The ability to full attack on a charge
Its the +Ten foot move speed probably.:-)
I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
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But Fighter is a deeply flawed and extremely limited class. .In your opinion.
That depends entirely on the definitions of "deeply flawed" and "extremely limited". If metrics are attached to that and then those metrics are compared to other class's metrics then the statement is an objective one.
There do exist definitions we can give "deeply flawed" and "extremely limited" such that the fighter objectively qualifies. If "deeply flawed" means that the class has weaknesses that prevent it from doing it's prime directive of "fight" then the fighter qualifies. It lacks any form of spell resistance and lacks abilities to counter or get around spell effects. Now if the fighter is defined as someone who does lots of damage with a sword, then the class is not deeply flawed. I assume that the fighter is suppose to fight, which at higher levels means countering or mitigating spell effects to deliver your own tactical contributions. Now "extremely limited" could mean a lot of things, if we define it as the ability to do lots of things, then the fighter is objectively less than all it's peers. What is not objective is whether or not being last among peers is extremely limited. If "extremely limited" is defined as "limited ability to role play, then that would be false. The fighter does have it's own role-playing mechanics that allow it to at least out-pace the warrior.
Is "having more role-playing mechanics than an NPC class" really good enough?
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Fighters are at a disadvantage compared to the full BAB martials because fighters don't get any (to borrow from MMO parlance) "I Win" buttons to push on demand.
Fighter's still perfectly playable -- but being good at it has far more to do with the player than his class.
Fighter is a hard mode class =P
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One question OP: Have you taken into consideration that the bonuses the Barbarian gets from rage aren't "always on" while whichever bonuses the Fighter gets usually are?
This goes under the "completely irrelevant" column.
I've never seen a Fighter who survived pushing on once his cleric ran out of healing spells.
I've never seen a Barbarian above 3rd level run out of rounds of Rage before the party healer ran out of healing.
The idea that a class somehow has a leg up because they can "go all day" is a myth. Every class runs on hit points. As soon as they're gone and your options for refilling them are expended, you're done. Barbarians actually have more ability to "go all day" because they have more hit points, they're better able to conserve them throughout the day, and they're less likely to lose them since they have equivalent AC to the Fighter but vastly better saves (they're more likely to shrug off or completely negate damage from things like fireballs, sneak attacks, etc.).
Personally, I think a *party* taking 2-3 rounds for a single equal-CR foe is a good benchmark
A single equal CR foe should be a cakewalk requiring only the smallest expenditure of resources for a party. The game is designed to be rigged in the player's favor. The game literally assumes that an "epic challenge" is a fight against same level opponents with 1/2 the gear, so it really should not be taking 2-3 rounds for an entire party to beat one equal CR foe.
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Is "having more role-playing mechanics than an NPC class" really good enough?
Really depends on how you define "good enough".
Good enough for me to play one? No.
Good enough for people to think it is a PC class? Yes.
Good enough for me to recommend playing one? No.
Good enough to be an interesting role player? Yes.
Good enough that it will work in some parties with some GMs with some kinds of play styles? Yes
Good enough to sate a curious mind looking to apply an array of abilities to a variety of situations in a deep and thought provoking way to both the enjoyment of the player and the collective experience of the group? No.
I have to wonder what all these buff spells that you are casting during combat are which are worth the standard action?
Our party bard left a bit ago so there's going to be some reshuffling, but previously the most common buff spells cast on another PC or the group using an actual in-combat action were (in rough order of frequency as far as I can remember):
good hope, gallant inspiration, saving finale, haste, heal, heroic finale.
I would say about half those are of notable concern to a superstitious barbarian. Now, 2/3 of them are bard-only, you may note, so perhaps of much less concern to a barbarian in a different party. I think it would certainly be fair to say that a bard in the party changes the Superstitious question in a way that no other class does.
That depends entirely on the definitions of "deeply flawed" and "extremely limited". If metrics are attached to that and then those metrics are compared to other class's metrics then the statement is an objective one.
Let's be specific then...
Fighters are deeply flawed because they are supposed to be good at fighting. They aren't.
Fighters are good at standing still and full attacking. If this game were about hitting a sandbag 'til it's obliterated, Fighters would be awesome. Sadly (for Fighters), combat involves a lot more than that, and they aren't good at it. They lack mobility (like most other martials), they lack means to deal with magic (an extremely common threat) and they lack defenses against anything that doesn't target normal/flat-footed AC or Fort saves.
They are extremely limited because they are the least useful of classes out of combat (only Warrior and Commoners are slightly worse... And Commoners at least get Perception as a class skill).
If "beating stuff with a pointy stick" is not a viable solution, Fighters are about as useful as a Commoner.
For that, there's always Rage Cycling, and Moment of Clarity if your DM doesn't allow Rage Cycling. Fortunately, the saving throw bonus of Superstition lasts all the time, not just when raging.
Well now, don't I feel silly.
For that, there's always Rage Cycling, and Moment of Clarity if your DM doesn't allow Rage Cycling. Fortunately, the saving throw bonus of Superstition lasts all the time, not just when raging.
Actually...
Rage Powers (Ex)
As a barbarian gains levels, she learns to use her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains a rage power. She gains another rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers require the barbarian to take an action first. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. (...)
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Actually, yeah, they do. You could build an effective barbarian on half of your usual feats. Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Dazing Assault. Done. That leaves 5 feats unaccounted for, so if you really want to, you can pick up things like Extra Rage Power, or various maneuver feats. If you want, you can take Heavy Armor Proficiency and grab a mithral suit of plate and some AC-boosting rage powers and just tank the AoO (they have to hit you), which might be a tactical way of wasting your enemies' AoOs so your party can get in.i diagree.... agood grapple (greater, rapid etc) is viable at any level. true, not vs any foe.... but very useful.
and barbarian got str surge, but without the improve feats he will wat many AOO....
(and barbarian dont have feat to spare.)
Heck, you don't even need that. One could probably [with some difficulty, admittedly], play a barbarian from level 1 to level 12[where a lot of games tend to fall apart for reason like 6th level spells and general super-powering], with exactly one feat. Power Attack. And even that is only needed at about level 4 or 5[read ~1/3 of the way into the Barb's career]. At first level, when most barbarians take it, you will be rage-swinging for roughly 1d12+10, +12 if you have an 18Str pre-rage. That is pretty much a 1-shot kill. The rest is pretty much just Icing on the Rage-Cake. The idea that Barbarians don't have spare feats is kinda silly, save certain builds.
I have to wonder what all these buff spells that you are casting during combat are which are worth the standard action?
Our party bard left a bit ago so there's going to be some reshuffling, but previously the most common buff spells cast on another PC or the group using an actual in-combat action were (in rough order of frequency as far as I can remember):
good hope, gallant inspiration, saving finale, haste, heal, heroic finale.
I would say about half those are of notable concern to a superstitious barbarian. Now, 2/3 of them are bard-only, you may note, so perhaps of much less concern to a barbarian in a different party. I think it would certainly be fair to say that a bard in the party changes the Superstitious question in a way that no other class does.
Right. Also Tport or DD for when you have to beat a emergency retreat.BLESSING OF FERVOR. DELAY POISON. AIR BUBBLE. RESIST ENERGY, COMMUNAL (which is often cast in combat once you learn they have a nasty elemental attack)
The various Cure & healing spells.
But yes, I agree, we have Bards. Bards change things.
Hah! I ninja'd Slayer'ed andreww! ^^
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I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
In any case, Superstition has bad stuff to go along with the good. Just counted the Good is not fair.
I generally like to delay until after the casters (on the rare occasion I win Initiative over them, anyway).
And emergency Rage cycling is something a lot of people can get. Heart of the Fields, an Oracle dip, a Cord of Stubborn Resolve (which is super cheap), so in a pinch you can drop Rage, get healed, and bring it up again.
I don't generally use Rage cycling as a balance point because it just feels icky to me, but it IS an option you can use, and I don't see anything wrong with occasionally using it.
It was also fun when I was Dominated (sorta...still not sure what the hell that effect was, and I rolled a 1 on it) and the order was "Kill or incapacitate your teammates by any means necessary". Turns out, I'm basically immune to the party spellcasters via Eater of Magic and Strength Surge getting me out of the Sorcerer's favored Icy Prison spell.
Plus, most of the good buffs last 10 minutes/level, and thus can be cast beforehand. When you get a whopping +5 bonus out of normal Heroism, you don't need Greater, for example.