Mainly pulling my question from this blog post https://goblinworks.com/blog/are-you-experienced/
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this. But I figured it warranted some discussion somewhere.
"So after an initial period of "being the new character," starting at the beginning of character advancement, you'll find that you'll soon close any perceived power gap with older characters. Late starters will eventually be just as powerful, though not as versatile, as those who have subscribed since day one."
So xp is universal as long as you made an account Day 1 you will have the same amount of xp as an offline player who made an account when you started on day 1 and have been playing semi religiously every day. So where does the person that plays more in the game get rewarded if not xp and developing their character? Am I missing something huge? Is it just gold and completing pre-req quests for feats and what not?
I understand the need for wanting to keep on the same page with everyone else, but I think their should be a benefit in the character development aspect for people regularly playing than just gear, gold, and getting quests done.
Goblin Squad Member
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Dario hit the nail on the head. Everything that a character can increase/gain while online, she will have more of by playing more often. Experience points will not be one of those when compared with others of equal subscription time.
It isn't enough to sub and sit back here, or probably in any game. You have to play to get the materials, Influence, gold, contacts, achievements, hold your territory, anything that I missed to make use of that exp. :)
I understand there is tons to do in the game, but I don't know what idea would sit well with me just the communist XP system I kind of shuddered at when I read it. I dunno if I can purpose something that is better. I like being rewarded for time other than gold I like to see my character progress and not just given to be just cause I want do the work for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's no different to EVE.
What you get by playing more is more experience and knowledge of the environment, your equipment and what other player groupsare like - as a PLAYER. You also acquire more ingame connections, trading partners and people to call on when you are in trouble.
The significant thing about this style of skill acquisition is its actually not sensible to try and build a Hollywood style one man hero who does everything. You are actually better off focusing and have say a melee combat character and a totally separate character that trades and crafts and another one that hauls goods, or even hire someone else to haul the goods instead of making your main do everything.
As a result "older characters" will not be unbeatable combat monsters, they will just be able to do more things.
ALSO ... and this may not have come out clearly yet though Ryan has hinted at it ... the power multiplier in PFO will not be character experience or gold spent on fancy gear. The power multipliers will be PLAYER knowledge combined with numbers. Hence the most skilled combat character in the game with the most expensive blinged up combat gear will still get taken down by a largish group of lower skill characters who know what they are doing. (in most games the blinged up character is unassailable by lesser characters and can even go AFK.
What this skill system does NOT suit is the solo player who avoids other players and wants to just accumulate lots of Bling and make a shiney toon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's no different to EVE.
In eve aren't some ships stronger than others? so players that spend more time harvesting can become more powerful then players who just sit offline gaining XP?
And in pathfinder, that will take the form of better equipment that allows you to leverage more of your skills to their full effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, it's the only thing I don't like the sounds of in PFO. I prefer diminishing returns for players who play a lot, as opposed to character development being completely disconnected from actually playing your character. Guess I'll just have to see how it plays out because unfortunately it is core to the design and won't be changing, and there are too many other great things about the game to keep me away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the question is, how strong will a player with +5 weapons and armor be compared to say a new player with +1?And in pathfinder, that will take the form of better equipment that allows you to leverage more of your skills to their full effect.It's no different to EVE.
In eve aren't some ships stronger than others? so players that spend more time harvesting can become more powerful then players who just sit offline gaining XP?
If its anything like EVE ... strong enough to take on 3 or more of those new players but definitely not strong enough to take on 10.
Numbers WILL be the key force multiplier in this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the question is, how strong will a player with +5 weapons and armor be compared to say a new player with +1?
A player may only be able to thread 1 +5 item or 5 +1 items, there for a player decked out with +5 items may be more powerful, but when he/she dies they will lose all bar 1 of those awesome +5 items, and that will be a massive loss, possibly months of work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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remember, in Eve, those "stronger" ships take more skills to fly, not to mention Isk to buy or resources to build. And then there are all the supplement skills to make that ship effective, but I digress.
In PFO, others have said it, but I will recap in my own words, from how I interpret the system.
Everyone will gain xp at the same rate, online and offline, however, there will be achievements required for some of the feats and such that you spend exp on, if your not online to complete them, you can have millions of exp and have nothing to spend it on, where the "online always" guy will have them completed and ready to learn as soon as the exp was there.
Concerning the power curve, I would assum it would be similar to Eve, in that each "role" has strengths and weaknesses. We know that the armor you wear will effect damage in different ways, light armor suchs vs physical weapons and armor, but strong vs magic, and vs versa for heavy. So fighter in heavy armor is good vs another fighter, or a melee rogue type, but weak vs a mage. And vs versa.
Playing PFO will bring other benefits than just achievements completed, as others have mentioned above. Things like building friendships and accountability with others, as well as just learning the system and what works best in which situation.
Most of this info is geared towards PVP, but some of it applies to the "non combat" professions as well. Learning what hexes are best for what types of gathering, what trade routes are "safer", and things like that are better learned personally, rather than looking it up on a "guide" or however you would learn if you don't play often.
Not saying any of this is "bad" or "unachievable" by those who can't dedicate much time daily to PFO. Just remember there is no way (that I know of anyway) to accommodate the "causal" gamer without making it OP or unbalanced to those willing and able to put the hours in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Concerning the power curve, I would assum it would be similar to Eve, in that each "role" has strengths and weaknesses. We know that the armor you wear will effect damage in different ways, light armor suchs vs physical weapons and armor, but strong vs magic, and vs versa for heavy. So fighter in heavy armor is good vs another fighter, or a melee rogue type, but weak vs a mage. And vs versa.
Also some of your skills will be useless without the right equipment. For example if your awesome 5 year trained multi rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard puts on all his super sneaky stuff and has no room for his clericy stuff he simply will not be able to cast those high level cleric spells he spent 6 months training at all unless he swaps out some of the rogue gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also some of your skills will be useless without the right equipment. For example if your awesome 5 year trained multi rogue/cleric/fighter/wizard puts on all his super sneaky stuff and has no room for his clericy stuff he simply will not be able to cast those high level cleric spells he spent 6 months training at all unless he swaps out some of the rogue gear.
Concerning the power curve, I would assum it would be similar to Eve, in that each "role" has strengths and weaknesses. We know that the armor you wear will effect damage in different ways, light armor suchs vs physical weapons and armor, but strong vs magic, and vs versa for heavy. So fighter in heavy armor is good vs another fighter, or a melee rogue type, but weak vs a mage. And vs versa.
Exactly. Your limited in the number of "skills" you can slot. Meaning have active and ready to use. So yeah, I might have really high spells and skills in all 4 roles, but I can't slot them all at the same time. Plus each "role" will likely have a different set of gear to best use those skills. So that is a lot of inventory space and encumbrance to have that flexibility. Lots to lose should I die....
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Pexx
Are you new? Have you read the 2.5 years of the blog? Read that before the forums, because some of the forum is speculative or actually advocating for changes. Are you looking to buy into the game? Would you be interested in watching live twitch 10 PM Friday of alpha with limited implementation?
I did not this this as second resource Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links listed. Nihimon collects information to share.
In general if you play a lot and work with a lot of characters you will gather allies and useful in game resources.
!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I sympathize with the overall idea in the OP...I like to be able to log in and "work on" my character. When I log out, I like to feel like I've accomplished something and made my character more formidable in some way. That's what I find fun. I do wonder if there will be too few avenues for that in this game, but as with everything else, I'm willing to give the design the benefit of the doubt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there will be plenty to "log in and work on" with your character. You got achievements that need done, escalations to crush, trade routes to establish and run, crafting to start, items to sell, settlement/POIs to defend, ect. There just won't be "log on and grind kills/exp to level and get stronger" type of accomplishments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually think its a good thing you don't get street cred for logging in all day and grinding away and repeating the same instance over and over. Its always struck me as rather silly that if you smack enough goblins with a club you get healthy enough to fall off mountains without dieing.
You can still grind if you want but it will be for gold not XP.
@Lam
Are you new? I am newish to Pathfinder Online yes.
Have you read the 2.5 years of the blog? I have read the majority of them yes.
Are you looking to buy into the game? I've already pony upped the cash for it.
Would you be interested in watching live twitch 10 PM Friday of alpha with limited implementation? I would be yes
Thanks for the resource link had no idea it existed.
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I guess the XP over time it's a way to transform the power gap lesser between casual and hardcore players. Of course, the hardcore (the one who play more) will be more powerful, but the XP over time ensures this will occur slowly, giving to the casual, more time to pursue that power gap. And the power gap is been stated to be small. Someone said about 4 new players to down a veteran in a fair combat. If the player skill match.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If i remember correctly items also come in tiers from one to three. so whats the power gap between a tier one +5 and a tier three +5?
Summary of a lot of math:
Roughly, tier 3 armor reduces damage by about 60% when attacked with a tier 1 weapon wielded by a equivalent balanced character. A tier 3 weapon against tier 1 armor improves damage by about 10%, and does more critical hits, as compared to a tier 1 weapon.
All told, if all characters are balanced (equally trained in offense and defense) and of similar XP spend on the same combat skills, two characters with tier 1 +5 gear will be a fair match for one with tier 3 +5 gear.
There are other confounding factors that make this summary not a fair estimate for the purposes of game balance.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There are other confounding factors that make this summary not a fair estimate for the purposes of game balance."I'm gonna say a bunch of stuff, but it's not going to tell you anything."
>8-]
My accuracy is much less than my precision- For example, +100 defense can be as much as 60% reduction in damage, or as little as 0% (if the attacker has an absurd amount of +precise on the attack, it always hits). Likewise shifting from the tier 1 to tier 3 attack distribution might have more or less of an effect based on where the outcome distribution falls; for a target number of 50 or so, the tier 1 weapon will do about 90% of maximum damage in the long run, while the tier 3 weapon will do about 100%. For a target of 100, the difference is greater.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam
Are you new? I am newish to Pathfinder Online yes.
Have you read the 2.5 years of the blog? I have read the majority of them yes.
Are you looking to buy into the game? I've already pony upped the cash for it.
Would you be interested in watching live twitch 10 PM Friday of alpha with limited implementation? I would be yes
Thanks for the resource link had no idea it existed.
Welcome!
There are a lot of issues that we all have to take a "wait and see" attitude toward right now. If we end up unhappy with some of the results, we can use whatever crowdforging tools GW makes available (currently this message board and a basic Ideascale site) to advocate for changes. I suspect that crowdforging through this message board has already affected many of the proposed game systems.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Here's the difference between EVE and Pathfinder Online.
EVE
In EVE, you have a queue of skills your character will train. If the time required to train one of those skills exceeds 24 hours, you can queue it up but you can't queue anything after that long training time.
So you could pay for a monthly EVE sub, and manage your skill queue, training skills and doing nothing else. (You can buy a PLEX, and sell it on the in-game market for ISK, use that ISK to buy the necessary skill books to unlock new skills to train, all without leaving the busiest market hub in the game). You could, given unlimited time and unlimited PLEX, train every skill in the game to the maximum level.
Skills are prerequisites for using various ship hulls and ship modules. They also have effects on your character's abilities.
So technically you could sit in that market hub paying for monthly subscription time and buying skill books with PLEX and train all the skills you need to fly the largest ship in the game fully equipped with the most powerful modules in the game, and provided you could get to a place where you can fly that ship, and that someone would transfer ownership of one to you, with the modules included, you could board it, and take command, never having flown a single mission on any other ship or used any ship equipment ever in the history of your character.
The limiting factor is 100% realtime, plus your willingness to buy ISK rather than earn it, and your social connections to get access to hulls and modules not regularly sold on the markets. Zero impact from your actual in-game activities.
Pathfinder Online
In Pathfinder Online, you gain XP in realtime which goes into a bank. You can log in and find a skill trainer to exchange banked XP for skills. You could, if you wished, pay for a monthly subscription for a long period of time and never log in, then, when you decide you are ready, log in and start buying training.
You will discover however that even though you might have a huge amount of XP banked, you cannot buy all the training you want. After the first couple of ranks of a particular Feat are trained, you start to run into prerequisites.
Some of those prerequisites are ability score increases, which also come from purchasing training. But you will find that you can't purchase enough of those kinds of Feats without running into other prerequisites. Those are related to earning Achievements.
Achievements reflect things that your character has actually done in game. Some of them are easy to get - a couple of hours of generic adventuring will provide quite a few of them. So you do that, then you go back to the trainers and you can spend more of your XP and get some more Feats. You repeat that cycle, but you start to notice that the time required to get the next set of Achievements you need to unlock the next round of Feats to train are becoming increasingly time consuming to earn.
Eventually you reach a point where the time required to get the next batch of Achievements has become pretty substantial. You've reached the point in the game where you are gated more by what you are able to do while you play than by how much XP your character is earning.
So if you paid for a long period of subscription time, and gained a huge bank of XP, you would not be able to replicate the experience of the pilot in EVE - you can't just train your character and never interact with the world.
The character who starts playing on day one and actually plays the game - going out into the world and doing things related to the kind of abilities that the player wants that character to have - will have a substantial advantage over the character who is created on day one but that is never used and is just a reservoir holding XP.
(This is one big reason I say that Destiny's Twin is cool, but it's not as good as a "second character". Because you have to choose to either do things to earn Achievements with the Main, or with the Twin, but you can't do both at the same time. So you'll have to decide how you want to allocate your game time "doing things in the game" and you can't treat the Twin as just a convenient alter-ego of your Main.)
Why this is good design
The realtime training system pioneered by EVE solves a number of design problems. The biggest problem that it solves is that it allows us to control, absolutely, how quickly a character can unlock certain character abilities. In games where your character gets better simply as a function of your play, things like DPS and XPS are proxies for realtime training. But they're not great proxies because so many different people play the game at different rates and you are forced to make design choices between optimizing for the people at the very top of the power curve who are playing an absolutely min/maxed character in a mathematically optimal way, or for the 99% of the rest of the players who are doing something less "perfect" from a gaming perspective - starting at slightly less perfect and going down to "barely doing anything right".
The MMO community has shown time and again that it is capable of finding ways to level up characters faster than the designers "thought they could". The result is that game systems which were deployed in a half-finished state get pounded by rapidly advancing characters and the blowback is that the content is boring and grindy. (Or worse, doesn't exist at all, and characters run out of things to do and players therefore exit the game).
With realtime training we, the designers, control when you will be gated in to various content and nothing you, the players, can do can speed that process up. So you can be as efficient as you want, min/max to your hearts' content, play 24 hours a day without any sleep, and you won't be able to get ahead of our plan to deploy content.
We can then tune other parts of the design to be more interesting to the vast middle majority of the players rather than having to tune to the most efficient players. The Achievement system allows us to provide you interesting things to do but we don't have to ask you to do them 24x7x365. So if you don't play that aggressively you will find that in general you're able to "keep up" with those who do (there's an economic risk because those 24x7 players will generate more economic activity than the people who don't but we think we can manage that on the backend.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You will discover however that even though you might have a huge amount of XP banked, you cannot buy all the training you want. After the first couple of ranks of a particular Feat are trained, you start to run into prerequisites.
I ran into this exact situation last night playing Sevast. I had created him last weekend to do some test, so he had about 15,000 XP when I started, but he didn't have any Feats or Achievements. I was able to get Rank 2 in Dowser, Forester, Miner, and Scavenger, but then I had to go out and actually gather those things to get further. When I went to the Wizard trainer, I ran into the same situation - I had to go out and kill stuff with my Wand or Staff in order to qualify for the next rank of the Feats I wanted to buy.
I thought this was awesome :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like a character that was created, then left to gather xp, will be the special case where theme park MMO "power-leveling" will be possible in PFO. Until that character spends all of its accumulated xp, playing for hours at a time and killing certain enemies in certain ways will actually advance it faster than less-focused adventuring.
I can live with that, because the person who made the character has been paying for it for a long time, while forgoing the fun of playing that character. He or she will have invested a significant amount of time and money to make that power-leveling binge possible, and helped to support GW during the character's "dormant" period.
From a player skill perspective, power leveled characters will still face the same problem they face in other MMOs: Players who have been using their combat feats all along will be much more familiar with the feats and their interactions than someone who just acquired them all in a leveling binge. Having a given set of feats, and knowing how to use and combine them to best effect, are very different things.
