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EntrerisShadow, I absolutely agree, I proposed my challenge out of fun.
This whole discussion is why Pathfinder is a game about superheroes and magic and why realism can be left behind. High level people are not meant to have anything in common with normal people. Commoner 20 is a joke, only for the sake of class completeness.
In Golarion, there are plenty of people with NPC ranks, but they are standard villagers, watchmakers, small-town mayors. They have stats, because individuals have stats in this game, if they didnt, they would be gods.
There are a few high-level Aristocrats. Some Paladins guarding the Worldwound and most notably, my picture, Queen Abrogail Thrune II herself. Now, she is no ordinary aristo - she is an Aristocrat 2/... (Ahem) Sorcerer 16 with a permanent Pit Fiend bodyguard and access to the wealth and power of Cheliax. She is herself massively superhuman.
But this thread isn't about what one would actually do.
If it was, a farmer commoner at about level 4-5 would realise this was all a nonsense and take levels in Ranger, a Warrior who had made sergeant would take Fighter or Cavalier, an Adept might cut their losses and go Cleric.
But we have the absurdity of a Commoner 20.
How magical can such a guy get? I'd argue that in a magical world such a guy would pick up the minor magic feats. He'd have cantrips like Create Water or Light.
In the movie House II, the electrician that shows up is a prime example of an adventuring commoner.
When it turns out the odd disturbances aren't wiring problems, the electrician states the problem is otherdimensional portals and without blinking an eye pulls out a sword from a toolbox to find the source of the problem. Portals to other dimensions aren't new to such a person, and is prepared for any occasion.
Seriously, a 20th level commoner is a person that has suffered so many bizarre incidents and bad luck while on the job that the commoner prepares like an adventurer (on top of preparing for routine work), yet does so in the performance of the commoner's mundane duties.
Uh, it plainly says on Bill Towner's business card, Electrician/Adventurer. So he's multi-class and couldn't reach 20th.
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If you want to at legendary people, John Henry, Paul Buynan, Jack in Jack an the bean stalk,the woodsman in little red riding hood etc are example o fhigh level commoners.
Al Gore.... .18th level vice president (politician is a commoner class)
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Commoner 20 can happen. Even an adventurer could be a commoner. Think of the stories with an ordinary character amongst heroes, the character who never learns magic or learns to swing a blade in more than a crude fashion. None of the PC classes fit such a character, yet they can outlast many of the heroes in experience gained by simply staying out of combat or contributing narratively (e.g., cutting the rope on the chandelier, pushing the bookcase over the attacker, frantically firing off answers to the magic mouth's riddle while the party fights off the hordes of undead guardians) rather than directly. Maybe they even learn to fight, but never better than they could get with the few feats allotted to them.
"Jon Everyman
Level 20 Commoner
HP: 140 (20d6 + 80)
AC: 12 T: 12 FF: 10
Melee: Unarmed Strike +12/+7 (1d3 + 2)
or
Club +12/+7 (1d4 + 3)
Ranged: Sling +11/+6 (1d4 + 2)
FORT: +15 REF: +12 WILL: +11Feats: (10 + 1(Human)) Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Profession), Great Fortitude, Alertness, Fleet, Deft Hands/Deceitful/anything that gives a flat +2 bonus to some skills, Survivor, Catch Off Guard."
You forgot her Magic items.
She has either 123000 (NPC non-heroic), 159000 (NPC heroic) or 880000 (PC).It changes pretty much everything.
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Some people said Sam Gamgee, but I would say Frodo was more likely a commoner. Sam at least fought pretty well. Frodo only survived because of some sweet armor someone gave him and he had some powerful friends. He also would have gotten some sweet XP for solving the word puzzle to enter Moria. He did pretty much nothing on his own, but survived tons of epic stuff.Given their family backgrounds, I think Frodo, Merry, and Pippin would all qualify as aristocrats. They are clearly from the closest thing the hobbits had to noble families.
Along these lines, I would put Sam as at least an Expert. He's damn good at the things he enjoys, like cooking and gardening.
Along these lines, I would put Sam as at least an Expert. He's damn good at the things he enjoys, like cooking and gardening.
But, so is a high level commoner. The thing about traveling, you pick up a lot, so you become a bard or expert. Unless you have to go from place to place and not by choice. Gardening is like farming and if there is one theme throughout this thread is farmer. Frodo had such a high will save that he couldn't have been a commoner all the way through. Sam nearly failed his first will save against the ring when he had to give Frodo the ring back. I would think trusting his friend gave him some bonuses to that save, plus, by that time he must have been level 15 or something. Nicely done J.R.R.
Commoner is just the "you suck at everything" class. That doesn't mean that they can't be adventurers. A commoner character that has achieved 20th level is just unfathomably lucky, in my eyes. Their lack of formal training of any sort makes their stats reflect either divine intervention or dumb chance. Why can Billy stand toe to toe with the hellknight for a few rounds? Because he's got 140 hit points, damn it.
Some people said Sam Gamgee, but I would say Frodo was more likely a commoner. Sam at least fought pretty well. Frodo only survived because of some sweet armor someone gave him and he had some powerful friends. He also would have gotten some sweet XP for solving the word puzzle to enter Moria. He did pretty much nothing on his own, but survived tons of epic stuff.Given their family backgrounds, I think Frodo, Merry, and Pippin would all qualify as aristocrats. They are clearly from the closest thing the hobbits had to noble families.
Merry and Pippin, definitely. They are from wealthy landed families, not nobles as the Shire appeared to have been a democracy, with elected mayors as rulers. More like Plantation owners of the Southern US (without the slavery, Hobbits would make horrible slave owners). Bilbo and Frodo must have owned (and leased) land somewhere as neither seems to have worked, but had a good income. Sam was an Expert, as was his father. Expert Gardeners.
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Being an expert at one thing doesn't make you the Expert class. You have to be very diverse. It's like an NPC bard or rogue but doesn't raid dungeons or learn as they travel. Commoner gets skill points too. If good ol' Sam put one rank in gardening and farming every level, he would still have left over points for things like use rope and sense motive (on Gollum).
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Now, one thing that's been ignored, is the NPC wealth.
His hypothetical CR by class level (which is what we're using to determine XP) is 18. That nets him 41,000 gold to play with. I bet we could actually make him somewhat pretty vicious with that...
...
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... Ashiel?
NPC's use NPC Wealth, not monster wealth, so he'd have 123,000 gp if using basic stats, or 159,000 gp if using heroic stats. There's a lot you can do to give a commoner a boost with that amount of wealth.
A 20th level commoner would be a folk hero, like John Henry. He may have never fought a battle in his life but his life was one of toil and you'd never want to find yourself on the wrong side of his hammer.
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Who do I think of as a 20th level commoner?
Well...mayhaps Bill and Ted...who then got wished into 20th level bards (how else would you describe it?).
Have you seen the Lego movie? Yeah...that guy?
PS: Everything is Awesome.
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A 20th level commoner would be a folk hero, like John Henry. He may have never fought a battle in his life but his life was one of toil and you'd never want to find yourself on the wrong side of his hammer.Paul Bunyan?
Definitely. I think Johnny Appleseed would be another great 20th level commoner.
I won't say merry and pippin were commoners though. I say they had the young template. Both merry and pippin were 32 at the time of lord of the rings, 18 years under the age of a hobbit becoming an adult. I believe samwise was as well, Frodo being the only one of age and only having to come of age that year.
Hobbits came of age at 33. I don't remember their exact ages off hand, but I certainly wouldn't give Merry and Pippin the Young template, especially considering what happens later. (The Giant template, maybe?)
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"Jon Everyman
Level 20 Commoner
HP: 140 (20d6 + 80)
AC: 12 T: 12 FF: 10
Melee: Unarmed Strike +12/+7 (1d3 + 2)
or
Club +12/+7 (1d4 + 3)
Ranged: Sling +11/+6 (1d4 + 2)
FORT: +15 REF: +12 WILL: +11Feats: (10 + 1(Human)) Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Profession), Great Fortitude, Alertness, Fleet, Deft Hands/Deceitful/anything that gives a flat +2 bonus to some skills, Survivor, Catch Off Guard."
You forgot her Magic items.
She has either 123000 (NPC non-heroic), 159000 (NPC heroic) or 880000 (PC).It changes pretty much everything.
Actually, it's my build, and I did make a note about that. I gave him one item of great worth (representing an inheritance, heirloom, boon, or something of the like) but all other NPC wealth went into land, hirelings, etc.
Remember this is NOT an adventuring class. When you're an adventurer, owning an Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Weapon, and Fortified armor makes a lot of sense. If you're a farmer or laborer who doesn't expect to go toe-to-toe with Pit Fiends, that's a waste of money.
This is how I would expect to see an actual thought-out 20th level commoner. We could optimize him, for sure, and make him nearly indistinguishable from a rogue without sneak attack or a good reflex save, but I was under the impression that's not the point.
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Yes, it's interesting...Count Jeggare from the PF books is literally the richest man in Cheliax, as he's the head of the richest noble family there.
All his good magic items are from adventuring, not buying them. He even notes that to raise his aide if he gets killed, he'd have to sell off an orchard.
Heh!
==Aelryinth
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I wonder why everyone goes "farmer" when they think of a 2oth level commoner. I think any NPC that has been good at one, simple, relatively unskilled job for decades might fit this bill. Farmer, laborer, fisherman, porter, or many other "menial" jobs.
Experience comes from combat, to be certain. In many of the APs and modules there are special awards for roleplaying, accomplishing important goals and other non-combat sources. Why is it hard then to think of a guy getting high level as a commoner?
Yes, getting married (if it was a challenge) can certainly be an experience-giving event. Winning terse negotiations with a neighbor; bar brawls; surviving a hurricane. All of these might grant experience.
20th level, obviously, would take a really long time but I don't think its so inconceivable. As to what this NPC would be; they'd be the BEST at what they do. Not the coolest, most optimized or the deadliest, but simply the best in their profession.
A 20th level shepherd for example might have incredible Perception, feats around mobility in the hills, carries a magic sling and doesn't even feel the weather anymore. He knows the herd well enough to even merit Perception checks if they're impersonated by sailors.
Imagine someone in the real world who has had an entry level working-class job for a long long time. The waitress that's been working at the diner for 40 years. The Mailman who has had the same route for 20 years. The person who has been working on the floor at Sears for 35 years.
You get the gist. Any job you could get without a high school education plus a couple decades of experience.
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Imagine someone in the real world who has had an entry level working-class job for a long long time. The waitress that's been working at the diner for 40 years. The Mailman who has had the same route for 20 years. The person who has been working on the floor at Sears for 35 years.
You get the gist. Any job you could get without a high school education plus a couple decades of experience.
Shop smart; shop S Mart. Ma'am, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave. (Deadite) And who the H*** are YOU? I'm Ash; hardwares!
Yeah, he could'a been king...
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Imagine someone in the real world who has had an entry level working-class job for a long long time. The waitress that's been working at the diner for 40 years. The Mailman who has had the same route for 20 years. The person who has been working on the floor at Sears for 35 years.
You get the gist. Any job you could get without a high school education plus a couple decades of experience.
I actually know someone who would fit this category. She's had lots of entry level job over a long period of time. She can walk into any restaurant and be waiting tables like a pro within an hour.
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Adventurers aren't the only ones who earn or have "experience". It is knowledge gained from surviving challenging conflict. So a level 1 commoner (a common laborer in the town) might have the following "5 room dungeon":
Room 1: Welcome to the market/CR 1/3
You've pulled up your cart to the corner where several adventurers have tethered their horses. There is a fresh pile for you to clean
1. Monsters: x3 street urchins (N male human commoner 1 [young boys])
2. Tactics: the boys are going to try to scoop up a bit of dung with a bucket while you're not looking and then throw it on you, ruining your day. They begin the combat hidden behind the cart (Perception DC 10).
Room 2: Rats!/CR 1/3
The crowd is far too thick to haul across the market; you'll have to take an alleyway around. As you trudge through the narrows you spy beady red eyes glaring at you with hunger
1. Monsters: x2 normal rats
2. Treasure: the rats left behind a dog carcass in the shadows (DC 10 Perception) around the neck of which was a leather strap with a small crystal (10 GP)
Room 3: Beligerent drunk/CR 1/3
You're getting close to the dump, so your day is nearly done. Unfortunately Mirt the Drunk blocks your path and slobbers his rant at you: it's the end of the world; the dragon is coming back; HE used to be the only one who could stop it... you're going to have to deal with Mirt somehow.
1. Monsters: Mirt the Drunk (N male human commoner 1)
2. Special: if you defeat Mirt without giving him yet another beating, receive the equivalent of a CR 1/2 Exp award
Room 4: Boss Havlek/CR 1/2
The heat of the afternoon sun beats down on you and your cart. Approaching the dump however you spy Boss Havlek, the man who controls the pit. He's flanked by one of his strong-armed nephews and he does not look pleased.
1. Monsters: Boss Havlek (NE male human expert 1); Havlek's nephew (NE male human warrior 1)
2. Tactics: Havlek thinks you're late and wants to short change you for your load for making him wait. If you want to get paid properly for all your hard work you'll either have to fight his nephew or outnegotiate the man.
Room 5: Heading home
Well the day is finally done and your empty cart rattles over the cobblestones behind you. A young woman, a local oracle of Saranrae meets your gaze and smiles at you.
1. Monsters: Mila Elderflame (NG female half-elf Adept (Saranrae) 1)
2. Special: if you take a chance and succeed in impressing Mila, she takes pity on you and uses a couple cantrips on you and your cart, cleaning them and saving you hours more work. Going forward you may count on Mila having a Helpful attitude toward you.
So surviving this one day alive and with a positive outcome from all 5 encounters would net you 605 Experience, potentially an extra 10 GP, and maybe even a girlfriend. As time goes on I can see many challenging days like this ahead.
Could this guy get past, say, level 5 like this? Probably not. But then, maybe he and Mila get married, move to a capitol city, and he takes over a group of dungsweepers. He begins having to fight off idiot adventurers, otyughs, and dire rat swarms. An outbreak of undeath comes; a flood; guild wars. It would be hard, but not unthinkable that he remains a commoner for 20 levels over, say, 20 years.
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Gandhi was a lawyer before he lead his people, Socrates was a great teacher. Definitely not commoners. Experts at least.Socrates.
Gandhi.
And probably a little warrior for Socrates as well since he was supposedly a Peloponnesian War veteran.
Farmer Maggot from The Lord of the Rings would be a fairly high level commoner. Don't know about 20th level though. Farmer Cotton would be no slouch, either.
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Lots of good stuffRoom 4 is gonna be pretty tough at level 1.
I feel kind of guilty about this, but I kind of want to force my players to run through that dungeon or something like it as a start to a campaign. My hack-n-slash players would kill me.
What exactly would a 20th level commoner be? Whatever they want I'd imagine, within the guidelines of the NPC class. They'd just be REALLY good at it.
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And probably a little warrior for Socrates as well since he was supposedly a Peloponnesian War veteran.Gandhi was a lawyer before he lead his people, Socrates was a great teacher. Definitely not commoners. Experts at least.Socrates.
Gandhi.
Both of these men would more likely be experts. Socrates Warrior 1/Expert 4 and Gandhi probably Expert 5.