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I imagine him being 20 times as common as a lvl 1 commoner. He's so common that adventurers and nobles don't even see him.
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Someone mentioned Forrest Gump, and that seems to be the best fit: A person of limited intelligence or great stubbornness (or both) who constantly finds his- or herself caught in the middle of various events pretty much throughout their life. Being extremely lucky also helps.
I say stubbourn/"dumb" because I think a smarter or more flexible person would've multiclassed or outright switched to at least a more suitable class at some point, even if it were just Warrior or Expert. In fact, Forrest himself probably got levels in Warrior, if not Fighter, during his tour in Vietnam, and maybe Expert afterwards.
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Common Joe always dreamed of being a great adventurer, so on his birthday his father and friends hired the local theater group to stage an "adventure" with Joe as the hero, so he could live out his fantasies before a lifetime of menial labor.
What Joe didn't know is that just before he arrived at the start of his "adventure" the theater group was murdered by an evil wizard and the people he assumed were the actors was actually a group of adventurers who were hot on the trail of the evil necromancer.
Through the sheer Bravado brought about by believing everything around him was a play and copious amounts of dumb luck, Joe managed to play act his way through an entire adventure ...
His confidence that she was his "love interest" won the heart of the princess.
His perfectly timed distraction caused the death of the fearsome red dragon.
He reunited the Paladin with her long lost father because he thought it would be a "chance for her to stretch her acting muscles".
He gave away countless "fake" coins and "costume" jewels to local children making his generosity legendary as he single handed revitalized an entire town.
In the climax of the adventure, Joe accidentally activating the world's most powerful artifact causing it to slay an entire army of the abyss.
What is Joe? A master swordsman? A powerful wizard? The most charming of bards? His adventuring companions only know that he is the greatest hero that the world has ever known.
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Shop smart; shop S Mart. Ma'am, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave. (Deadite) And who the H*** are YOU? I'm Ash; hardwares!
Yeah, he could'a been king...
Yeah, this is who I see as a high level commoner.
He never really learns combat (look at what he teaches the peasants... high level commoner combat, lol).
Basically, he's the average guy who was dumped into an insane situation and by luck, pluck, and his tolerance for pain, and lack of moral objection to using others, he seems to come out alive.. albeit not unscathed.
It didn't take years either.. watch the movies and check out the video game.. and you could see him climb the levels at a speed approaching Pathfinder APs, ha!
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What about Bert (Dick van D!%+) from Mary Poppins? He plays music, he draws, knows about magic, sweeps chimneys, rides horses and nails powerful witches. Seems like he's a shoe-in for 20th level commoner.
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Adventurers aren't the only ones who earn or have "experience". It is knowledge gained from surviving challenging conflict. So a level 1 commoner (a common laborer in the town) might have the following "5 room dungeon"
This would make a fun gamestarter. There is a technique of passing out pre-made character sheets for a quick vignette at the start of a session. There is a good example somewhere on the forums where Blackwell Keep (Age of Worms) is introduced to players by letting them roleplay the warriors that are about to be overrun by lizardfolk. It's a pretty quick encounter, and helps create a tone/give players inside knowledge.
If you do run a commoner game or vignette, please post in the Campaign Journals to let us know how it went!
Also, your example would make a good webcomic! Too bad the name "Joe Dirt" is already taken.
I'd say Durnik from The Belgariad series by David Eddings would be a very high level commoner with some interesting abilities thanks to his career and life choices.
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The luckiest SOB to ever live, nobody killed him for xp on the way up.
Seems to me like a commoner would never reach 20th level without having branched off into an adventurer class. How would a farmer get the xp needed to even reach 6th or 10th?
Perhaps he was cursed with a long life and lived 500 years. Even then...
But it's a fun topic.
well see he bought some magic beans.
the magic beans grew over night and grew so tall they reached the clouds where giants lived.
Unprepared for the opening of this new world and situation he hand to make do with his current circumstances and wits alone.
Finally, after escaping the giant world and my luck alone cutting down the bean stalks and killing giants in the process,
he travelled the lands as a hero and giving speeches on his exploits of the strange new world above the clouds, only reachable by magic beans stalks.
During his travels he has seen and experienced many things, only to return home and find his homeland taken over by a strange new lord. The people suffered and crops had all gone fallow.
while speaking to people in town, he found that the new lord was a horrible witch who had moved just north of his home, but he had to follow an strange yellow brick road to speak to a wizard who might help him….
Need I go on?
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Seems to me like a commoner would never reach 20th level without having branched off into an adventurer class. How would a farmer get the xp needed to even reach 6th or 10th?
Perhaps he was cursed with a long life and lived 500 years. Even then...
But it's a fun topic.
You can get past CR appropriate encounters without fighting them. All your points in diplomacy then skill focus and such?
Or sneak past them?
"How'd you get to level 20?"
"Oh bob its easy, I just ran past everything screaming."
umm isn't this how you get to level 20 as a monk, too?
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What about Bert (Dick van D~@%) from Mary Poppins? He plays music, he draws, knows about magic, sweeps chimneys, rides horses and nails powerful witches. Seems like he's a shoe-in for 20th level commoner.
B-B-Bard
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What exactly would a 20th level commoner be?A 10th-level fighter.
The commoner has more skill points, higher saves, but no bravery, weapon training,armor training and one less combat feat. Still though, the comparison hurts.
---------------------------------------------------------
Human Commoner(focused study alternate racial feature)
10str 14dex 14con 10int 10wis 18cha
(favored class bonus to health)
Skills(2+int+1race=5): Craft(alchemy),Perception,UMD
1|Additional talents(dangerously curious, Eyes and Ears of the City), Skill focus(UMD)
2|
3|Magical Aptitude
4|
5|Master Craftsman(alchemy)
6|
7|Craft Wondrous item
8|Skill focus(alchemy)
9|Master Alchemist
10|
11|Craft Arms and Armor
12|
13|Craft Construct
14|
15|Armor Proficiency, Light
16|Skill focus(perception)
17|Armor Proficiency, Medium
18|
19|Armor Proficiency, Heavy
20|
Strategy: Use craft alchemy to raise money and to make acid. Once you have enough resources go adventuring!
Use your share of the loot to buy more alchemical weapons until about level 4-5. Work in using wands with UMD once you can. By lvl 3 you have a +13 bonus or 70% chance to activate a wands. At mid levels you use magic crafting to outfit yourself and party with cheap magic items.
At 13 you retire from adventuring and use your alchemy to make more money while you craft your phylactery and turn into a lich. (be sure you can make the phylactery before dying of old age, also make a hat of disguise beforehand)
Now with your unlimited time make a golem army. (Note: once per decade go adventuring pretending to be a "bad touch" cleric to prevent the on set of demilichdom).
Now with your golem army concur the world!
By level 20 you can wear fullplate and pretend to be Sauron without the ring weakness.
NOTE: I love how commoners get perception as a class skill and fighters don't!
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They would be like Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Provides emotional support, is regarded as the heart of the group, has no skills (maybe sense motive and a profession skill) or combat ability (he kills very few monsters), but he's a part of a bunch of combats where someone else does most of the heavy lifting.
A commoner is someone who lives from his abilities, instead of his skills. Ditch Digger, Field Hand, etc.
He'd be a tireless laborer, toiling fields, hauling stones, etc. That said, the amount of true challenge in his life is such, that if he was to make it to level 20, he'd be old age, likely have leadership, and be running a gang of laborers, instead of doing the hauling himself.
Actually, I think it'd be really cool to have a "sidekick" type character in a bunch of adventurers. Level 1 this Commoner 1 comes with the party on their first quest to, I don't know, hold the torch or something. As the game goes on he takes nothing but commoner levels but, as revealed in the build MRH posted he takes some interesting skill/feat choices. By mid levels he's got a niche like awesome crafter, or wand-wielder, or maybe animal handler with a trained hippogriff or something. Finally as the PCs retire at 20th they turn to the commoner and they're like: Joe, you've always been there for us and you've even saved our bacon a few times. In the course of our adventures we've built up this kingdom but we're adventurers, not monarchs. So here; here is the crown, scepter and throne of our kingdom. Its all yours Joe.
Suddenly an entire royal line is created just by being a loyal friend.
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I had toyed around with an idea of starting a campaign with 5th level 'NPC class' characters. General townfolk who had established lives and such. Then, the catalyst event happens, and they are thrust into an adventure. They've got 5 levels of basic life skills, but no special adventure type skills. They, of course, can start taking levels in traditional classes as they gain experience, and they can spend time retraining their NPC classes into proper adventuring classes. This, to me, makes a lot more 'sense' than the 16 year old kid heading off to slay the goblins. It seems much more likely for the 32 year old farmer to go off and slay them while his 16 year old kid stays behind to mind the farm and protect the family.
Starting with 5th level NPCs, the characters would have the effectiveness of approximately lvl 2-3, but have the HD of a 5th level. Avoids some of the one-hit-and-the-new-guy-is-dead problems, and lends itself to a little more background.
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Adventurers aren't the only ones who earn or have "experience". It is knowledge gained from surviving challenging conflict. So a level 1 commoner (a common laborer in the town) might have the following "5 room dungeon":
Room 1: Welcome to the market/CR 1/3
You've pulled up your cart to the corner where several adventurers have tethered their horses. There is a fresh pile for you to clean
1. Monsters: x3 street urchins (N male human commoner 1 [young boys])
2. Tactics: the boys are going to try to scoop up a bit of dung with a bucket while you're not looking and then throw it on you, ruining your day. They begin the combat hidden behind the cart (Perception DC 10).Room 2: Rats!/CR 1/3
The crowd is far too thick to haul across the market; you'll have to take an alleyway around. As you trudge through the narrows you spy beady red eyes glaring at you with hunger
1. Monsters: x2 normal rats
2. Treasure: the rats left behind a dog carcass in the shadows (DC 10 Perception) around the neck of which was a leather strap with a small crystal (10 GP)Room 3: Beligerent drunk/CR 1/3
You're getting close to the dump, so your day is nearly done. Unfortunately Mirt the Drunk blocks your path and slobbers his rant at you: it's the end of the world; the dragon is coming back; HE used to be the only one who could stop it... you're going to have to deal with Mirt somehow.
1. Monsters: Mirt the Drunk (N male human commoner 1)
2. Special: if you defeat Mirt without giving him yet another beating, receive the equivalent of a CR 1/2 Exp awardRoom 4: Boss Havlek/CR 1/2
The heat of the afternoon sun beats down on you and your cart. Approaching the dump however you spy Boss Havlek, the man who controls the pit. He's flanked by one of his strong-armed nephews and he does not look pleased.
1. Monsters: Boss Havlek (NE male human expert 1); Havlek's nephew (NE male human warrior 1)
2. Tactics: Havlek thinks you're late and wants to short change you for your load for making him wait. If you want to get paid...
So, a three year necro because I just used a (modified) version of this tonight and it was amaaaaaazing! Thanks, Mark!
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As said above by poster that owned "Class is not role!"
Wealthy sons would be commoners, and as said 2nd n 3rd nobles sons who DON'T get to go to court and hobnob to become 'aristocrats'- histories a great teacher and things still haven't changed just look at Hollywood trust fund kids that are 2nd grade.
They can live without a skill set = 'commoner', REAL commoners need a skill set be it boosting cars or croppin weed - they are 'experts'.
Aristocrat is not a racial class you don't get it just because your inbred!
And yet being an aristocrat generally means an entire childhood of being taught basic knowledges, handle animal, ride, Linguistics, Sense motive, etiquette, survival, (Diplomacy), and several other skills. Nobles were trained in these skills from childhood.
As was said though, a commoner will know just a couple skills such as Profession (farmer) and then all of his ranks will be stuffed into those, so he won't know much outside of his area of expertise. Sounds like a medieval peasant to me.
I didn't necro the thread, but I find it very interesting, so..
I largely agree with insaneogeddon, however your point is taken. The Aristocrat class offers lots of social skills, as wells as some warrior skills. The problem is, it also grants proficiency with all armor and all simple and martial weapons, as well as a medium BAB. I think what is missing is a lesser expert.
What if the Commoner class had the same BAB, saves, HD, and skill points as now, but granted about 4 or 5 class skills of your choice? Then while most Commoners would have the basic "farming" skills they already have, one could build the simpler folk of other professions. Those 2nd and 3rd sons, the common smith, even a focused skilled profession like barrister, or physician.
I've machinated over adding NPC classes for many years. I have advocated for the adding of a "Diplomat" class (the name comes from one of the Star Wars d20 editions), that had all the "hardware" of a Commoner, but with many more skill points and skills. I just thought of this, and now it seems obvious; I think this would fill so many niches for specialist NPCs without giving undue combat ability, or a boatload of skills.
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"Jon Everyman
Level 20 Commoner
HP: 140 (20d6 + 80)
AC: 12 T: 12 FF: 10
Melee: Unarmed Strike +12/+7 (1d3 + 2)
or
Club +12/+7 (1d4 + 3)
Ranged: Sling +11/+6 (1d4 + 2)
FORT: +15 REF: +12 WILL: +11Feats: (10 + 1(Human)) Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Profession), Great Fortitude, Alertness, Fleet, Deft Hands/Deceitful/anything that gives a flat +2 bonus to some skills, Survivor, Catch Off Guard."
Accurate, but he's awful. A 5th level PC could solo him (I only say 5th level as he takes a lot of HP to wear down, especially with Diehard). But he can't do anything. What's the earliest a caster can reliably beat that Will Save?
We have to include more items for the poor sod. He can't Fly or detect Invisibility.
Anyone want to do some mathematics on earliest level to solo? I'm guessing 5th for a Barbarian or an Enchanter Wizard with Fly.
This is an excellent illustration of my long-held assertion: "high" level Commoners don't threaten the world. In almost every discussion of NPCs, especially commoners, people push back at giving such folk levels. They contend that they don't need or deserve more hit points or BAB. I have always felt that this was narrow-minded, and that imagining the world (including ourselves) as almost all 1st level Commoners, is selling it and us short. And more to the point, missing out on more interesting NPCs who don't happen to be Experts, Aristocrats, or Warriors.
Now, I would only joke at the 20th level Commoner, only because with that much experience, you would just do more at some point...But 10th level Commoners, hell yeah.
Back in the early to mid 2000s, when SKR wrote his "thesis" about levelled NPCs, people lost it over these 8th and 9th level Commoners in their 70s. If you give them normal stats, and age penalties, those guys have like 20hp at best. I think we're safe.
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The most common man in the world.and we're talking about mythic levels of commoness here, if in RL highest leveled people are like level 4, this guy would be common beyond belief.
seriously though, he'd be very skilled, at like one thing. like an ultra otaku.
OR, he'd be that guy who had like jobs in 6 or 7 different career fields.
If human, tack on an extra profession is he exceptional at, or several more areas of moderate expertise.
If higher than average intelligence, tack on even more skills.
Perhaps that high intelligence human commoner invested in the human specific feats - Fast Learner, Improvisation, Improved Improvisation. A true jack-of-all-trades while still being a true master of several.
EDIT: severely ninja'd; this was meant to be talking with CantFindThePath's last post.
Woooooops~!
To a point yes, but also no.
It isn't just the issue with hit points - that's not really the problem (though it can be); it's also an issue with skills. That stat block is great, but it entirely drops off on the full scope of the commoner's feats (which could be significant), ability scores (meh - the dude isn't going to have godly stats, but still), and skills: the last being the most significant.
PF has, admittedly, obscured this concept somewhat with the way they have tweaked skills, but, in general, the skill values that exceed 5th level get into super-hero/impossible physics territory.
The counter argument, of course, is that the guy simply puts his skills into lots of different places. But, we have a name for people like that: experts.
The major problem with arguing that people of (relative) higher level exist in the real world is twofold: 1) level is an artificial construct me a t to indicate what a character can do over-all and thus don't quite exist in quite the same way in "real life" (that we can tell) and 2) everything you could want to model (outside of very high attack bonuses and hit points and saves) is able to be modeled within ~5 character levels.
I mean, those are ignoring things like how some things that are super difficult in games world is easily accomplished in the real world and vice verse in order to accept the supposition that PF models reality - to be clear: it doesn't; 3.x was much closer in most regards, but it still has its "wait what?" quirks that don't hold up; but PF and 3.x before it can model certain aspects of reality which is really what we are looking at when comparing the two and, under that paradigm, there is no need to ever presuppose really high levels (or their equivalent) in real life. The highest level dude I know of who has lived recently would probably be Christopher Lee (sadly deceased) who commanded twelve languages, was a phenomenal actor, singer, was knighted, and started a hard rock band in his 80s ('dat age score bonus, yo) and a smattering of other skills that require him to have... six? Yeah, about six skills, but probably less, so perhaps 2+a +5 INT bonus to net 7 skills (8 because he's human) and suddenly the guy caps out at 3rd level (4th is you allow that his intelligence wasn't 20).
*
Hey, thanks TL! I've been off the boards for a while, forgot about that little thought experiment. I'm glad it worked out for you!
Yeah, I like the idea I mentioned earlier upthread of having NPCs like commoners who accompany the PCs in my games.
Most of my players are such hardcore optimizers they balk at the idea of hirelings. Heck, half the time they complain that one of the other players had to bail them out of a fight. Still I keep trying to encourage them to have folks travel with them that:
1. manage campsites/vehicles
2. fill specialized roles like crafting or gathering sensitive info
3. Are highly trained in niche skills like Climb or Handle Animal
4. Have a couple handy spells/SLA's for between encounters, like Mending or Comprehend Languages; maybe they can even craft scrolls/potions/wandsI'm a big fan of commoners and I wish NPCs in general got more "air time" in long campaigns.
I agree with you in a broad way (though I feel for your players, too - often, I'm too worried that my hirelings are going to get killed if they hang out too nearby...)
Anyhoo, have you ever thought about publishing; even getting in touch with someone like Michael C LaBossiere (of Uncommon Commoner fame)? Your styles are a bit different, but there are parallels in the Commoner theme! There are several groups who focus on commoner's and your adventure (or ones similar to it) may well synch up well with theirs!
(If you are already published: oops. I'm bad at recognizing authors of stuff.)
...Adventurers aren't the only ones who earn or have "experience". It is knowledge gained from surviving challenging conflict. So a level 1 commoner (a common laborer in the town) might have the following "5 room dungeon":
Room 1: Welcome to the market/CR 1/3
You've pulled up your cart to the corner where several adventurers have tethered their horses. There is a fresh pile for you to clean
1. Monsters: x3 street urchins (N male human commoner 1 [young boys])
2. Tactics: the boys are going to try to scoop up a bit of dung with a bucket while you're not looking and then throw it on you, ruining your day. They begin the combat hidden behind the cart (Perception DC 10).Room 2: Rats!/CR 1/3
The crowd is far too thick to haul across the market; you'll have to take an alleyway around. As you trudge through the narrows you spy beady red eyes glaring at you with hunger
1. Monsters: x2 normal rats
2. Treasure: the rats left behind a dog carcass in the shadows (DC 10 Perception) around the neck of which was a leather strap with a small crystal (10 GP)Room 3: Beligerent drunk/CR 1/3
You're getting close to the dump, so your day is nearly done. Unfortunately Mirt the Drunk blocks your path and slobbers his rant at you: it's the end of the world; the dragon is coming back; HE used to be the only one who could stop it... you're going to have to deal with Mirt somehow.
1. Monsters: Mirt the Drunk (N male human commoner 1)
2. Special: if you defeat Mirt without giving him yet another beating, receive the equivalent of a CR 1/2 Exp awardRoom 4: Boss Havlek/CR 1/2
The heat of the afternoon sun beats down on you and your cart. Approaching the dump however you spy Boss Havlek, the man who controls the pit. He's flanked by one of his strong-armed nephews and he does not look pleased.
1. Monsters: Boss Havlek (NE male human expert 1); Havlek's nephew (NE male human warrior 1)
2. Tactics: Havlek thinks you're late and wants to short change you for your load for making him wait.
Also, just so you know how I changed it - I ran it for a young template commoner 1 (8-year-old girl) that was part of an orphanage-cum-cathedral thing (unique setting, uses fantasy/PF elements to flesh it out). She split her time between the Cathedral and the Monastery (separated by several city blocks) and was educated there. 3 point buy; background and consolidated skills. She chose aasimar and as a special variant (as magic mooooooostly doesn't exist) her tears can heal (1d6) and/or remove disease (1/day) (it's a bit vague).
So the three boys were, of course, fellow orphans; it was a Starsday, and they only had half a day, and were sent (as a group) through the blocks back to the church. On the way there, the boys lost their goody-two-shoes girl and decided to get into some mischief... (enter scene one where they were messing with a merchant), and we proceeded from there (she chased after them to stay together when they ran down the alleyway - where she rescued a puppy with her healing tears that she adopted; the belligerent drunk was a local "demon summoning" drunk - he didn't summon demons he just had rat problems - who was converted to Sarenrae; and Boss Havelek was turned into the vicious Sister 'Cretia (called "Sister Creature" short for "Sister Lucretia" - a hideous and cruel sister from the monastery who believed in hard, physical punishments, and the girl was very, very late by this point...).
We didn't play the equivalent of part five (yet), though that's been changed so far as to be entirely unrecognizable, so...
Anyway, it was awesome! Thanks!
Also, because I'm using that, she gained Prestige in her religion from that "terrible, lousy, no-good, tough pretty great day" she just had!
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I'd actually put Rocky Balboa as a 20th level commoner in a world where most characters don't go above level 6. He's got a great str and con, decent dex and cha, and terrible int and wisdom. He's got almost no skills except boxing and packing meat. He's got the ability to throw a hard punch and and is tough enough to take a beating and stay standing. He's no adventurer though, and while he worked for some bookies collecting debts, it was mostly because he looked tough and had a reputation. I don't think he was enforcing enough to take actual warrior levels.
