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I must ask the obvious question just to be sure (and to cover the bases)
did
A) the attack drop you to negative HP ?
B) were you at or above zero after taking the damage ?
if A then there's not much you can do as Unconscious from HP Damage is as helpless as if you were asleep
if B then your Golden and 100% in the Right to appeal the death
and I would also have the other player appeal as well
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Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...
Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?
I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.
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If a GM makes a mistake and a player doesn't earn a prestige point, can they appeal? What if it costs them gold or item access? What if they don't get their money's worth of fun at the table, can they ask for a refund from an organizer?
Reverse:
If a PC avoids a death, but the GM finds out later that a rule was handled incorrectly, can the GM appeal to a VO and kill said character?
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...
Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?
I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.
I think it has to do with the working under alignment infractions where the player doesn't agree that an evil act constitutes an evil act so it gets passed on up and the "evil" character gets a free rez in the way of an alignment change back to neutral. Nothing in the guide actually says anything about a free rez from death.
Edit: Welcome to the club, btw. I came out of the module scenario with scars from the death I received. Literally my VC wrote "received REDACTED scars"
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As other have said above... talk to GM first, and then your VC/VL... if this situation happened to me I would not look to overturn the outcome, but I would want the GM to understand the rules for future games... that being said I was under the impression that CDG was not ok for GMs to use in PFS unless strictly written into the monsters tactics... I may be wrong about this, but even if it is allowed, it is still very poor form.
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Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...
Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?
I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.
Should it be stated in the guide.
As a VO we are co-ordinator's first. We are selected to represent Paizo as well as the players in our area.
Getting a questionable death overturned, is a great reason to have VO's.
I know some players that spend allot of money just flying to Con's in my area. I am speaking 5k+ to fly their families across the world to attend con's...
So if a player ever comes to me in my region and questions me about a death, I will always listen.
I have yet to over turn a GM death, but I may in the next week once I get feedback from the GM as well as another player to see if the death was valid.
Is it fair that a GM can kill a player, perhaps without recourse? Is it also fair that we may loose a player from PFS and perhaps Pathfinder because a GM may of got a bit loose with the rules killing a player.
Also talk with any co-ordinator of your event, when a weird death comes have someone take a few moments to check the rules
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Another thing of note on CdG: CdG is a full round action, so, unless both minions involved were within a 5' step of your PC, they would not have been able to CdG to begin with, or it would have taken the Standard action from their first round's actions, along with the Standard action from their second round's actions, to complete the CdGs.
Also note that, if the first CdG had dropped the PC into negative hit points, there would have been no "need" for the second CdG.
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Getting a questionable death overturned, is a great reason to have VO's.
I understand that a lot of people think that's a great part of the system. I'm not asking if it's a good idea, I'm asking where in the rules do VOs have the authority to retroactively change the result of a table based on disagreeing with a GM's rule call.
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I'm asking where in the rules do VOs have the authority to retroactively change the result of a table based on disagreeing with a GM's rule call.
Well, technically there is nothing in the rules that grants Brock or any other Paizo employee the ability to make a retroactive change either. This is an intuitive situation. Paizo has empowered the regional coordinators to take actions and perform routine tasks within their region as they are needed. It is a "rule" based on the hierarchy of the society. Just like GMs oversee their table and can make rulings within that environment, Regional Coordinators oversee their area and can make rulings governing said area. If necessary, a ruling can be appealed to Brock as the next level of oversight beyond the Venture-Corps.
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In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).
There is certainly some merit to that. Many players feels that a CdG is unfair or (situationally) cheating. Since we are in the business of providing an enjoyable experience, many err of the side of not using them. OTOH, CdG is a legal mechanic within the rules and just as many players will say it is a viable action. Expect table variation.
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I have to admit, as GM, I don't think I would ever do a CdG against a PC in a PFS or home game unless the creature's tactics or nature specifically say that it will. In a home game, if the NPC has a specific insane vendetta against one PC, then perhaps. In a PFS game, if the tactics say so, then yes, otherwise no. (And, in the 20-30 scenarios I've GMed, I've only ever seen tactics that say monsters use CdG against other NPCs, never against PCs.)
Part of this is me as a softie GM; I hate killing PCs. I've done it, but I always feel bad about it. But, also, players hardly ever do CdGs, because most of the time it's not good tactics. If somebody is down and not a problem, you leave them down and out of the fight and spend your time on the combatants that are still there.
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I don't believe I've ever even seen a CdG listed in the tactics block in any scenario.
But just to make sure:
While I understand that tactics can vary based on situation I can't think of any reason to actually use this. As a GM you're not out to intentionally kill the players. So far I think I've only had one death at a table I've run due to a confirmed crit with a scythe.
IMO this was a dick move. The local VC needs to have a talk with the GM in question.
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Regional Coordinators oversee their area and can make rulings governing said area. If necessary, a ruling can be appealed to Brock as the next level of oversight beyond the Venture-Corps.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me see if I can explain my thoughts...
Organizing is a lot of work, and it comes with a lot of meta-power, such as seating tables, coordinating prizes, choosing scenarios, recruiting games etc. having a tremendous influence on play in their area.
All that said, according to the guide, being an organizer or a VC doesn't grant any direct power over what goes on at a table they aren't the GM for (alignment infractions being the exception).
Clearly the community thinks they do, we may quite well be better off if they do, I'm not sure.
I think when the rules we play by differ than the rules that are written it makes me grumpy.
TwK: If you've got some extra time, do you have any other examples of "rulings governing said area" that you think are appropriate, and if you're feeling really helpful a ruling you think isn't.
Thanks.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).I am aware of at least one.
** spoiler omitted **
Ah-ha! Yep. Played it but never GMd it. Wow. Really? The tactics say to do a CdG? Ouch.
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If you've got some extra time, do you have any other examples...
Only in so far as it not being resolved at the table by the GM and the players. In an ideal world, the players and the GM would discuss whatever issue they are having and come to a solution. Sometimes that would just be the GM saying, "that's the way it is. move on."
But, in the real world, not everyone can compromise. In just about every walk of life, there is a hierarchy of leadership which you can escalate appeals. Both players and GMs deserve somewhere to go for arbitration. Brock cannot possibly directly oversee 40,000+ members, so he appointed Venture-Officers to be his buffer. Organize games, answer questions, direct new players, expand into new play-spaces, and yes, arbitrate disputes in your region.
I'm not a search-fu guy, but I know that Brock has said in the past for issues, like PC deaths, to be escalated the Venture-Corps. It may not be specifically called out in the Guide, but IMO, it shouldn't have to be.
And in the end, if you don't like what the VO decides, you can still appeal it to Brock.
Sometimes, I just think we get too bent out of shape over the exactness of the text on the page. Some things should be intuitive. If people would just remember that this is a game and we're all just here to have fun, we wouldn't have nearly the complaints we see.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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If the minions are acting in the same initiative count, then we can think of their CdGs happening simultaneously. It is a reasonable position to say that your character was helpless for both CdGs. (It would also be reasonable to take the opposite stance too, just to be clear.)
I'm pointing this out to say that the GM didn't necessarily make a mistake simply by interpreting the situation as he did.
I would probably just try to let it go. It sucks losing a character, and I think we all feel for you. You said that you like the GM and you don't think he was being malicious. Avoid any further hurt feelings that could result if you were to go over his head, so to speak.
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If the minions are acting in the same initiative count, then we can think of their CdGs happening simultaneously. It is a reasonable position to say that your character was helpless for both CdGs. (It would also be reasonable to take the opposite stance too, just to be clear.)
I'm pointing this out to say that the GM didn't necessarily make a mistake simply by interpreting the situation as he did.
I would probably just try to let it go. It sucks losing a character, and I think we all feel for you. You said that you like the GM and you don't think he was being malicious. Avoid any further hurt feelings that could result if you were to go over his head, so to speak.
Even on the same init count characters have their own turns by RAW so he would have woken up. Anything else is a house rule, which PFS does not endorse unless they are PFS house rules.
Whether the init is 15A and 15B or 16 and 15 it is still two separate turns. The point of the init order is just to see who goes first.
I am only stating this so people understand that same init turn does not equal "at the exact same time".
Wjere
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Again. CDG wasn't necessary. He could have had both full attack you, and it seems the encounter was not run properly. The GM made mistakes, we all make mistakes, the important thing is that he be made aware of these mistakes so they don't happen in the future. It sounds like it hasn't ruined your character or your enjoyment of the hobby, so I would make this a learning exercise for all involved and move on... Make sure you give everyone who was at the table the correct course of action so the wrong way does not perpetuate.
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I just read the stat blocks for the encounter it must have been, and in the stat block, it specifically says that the BG in question is "overwhelmed by her urge to kill." With that in the stat block, I can definitely see why using minions to CDG would be considered a valid tactic, especially when she just put you to sleep.
That being said, obviously the CDG was somewhat bungled, and the second attempt shouldn't have worked. I don't think this was malicious or even wrong tactics, I believe it was a simple rule mistake. As such, it should be addressed.
However, we must be careful overturning GM calls at the table, especially after the fact. If we treat our GM community as though they are subject to constant scrutiny and are not trusted, eventually, we will run out of GMs. That's a tactic we must be diplomatic and sparing with utilizing. Personally, I've been killed a couple of times by GMs making mistakes and either illegally playing up, or forgetting to utilize the 4 player adjustment, and once, by misreading the amount of DR something has. Regrettably, it happens. And I don't think any one of us have ever run a completely perfect table.
I feel like I should close with something about glass houses and stones. I dunno.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I just read the stat blocks for the encounter it must have been, and in the stat block, it specifically says that the BG in question is "overwhelmed by her urge to kill." With that in the stat block, I can definitely see why using minions to CDG would be considered a valid tactic, especially when she just put you to sleep.
I can understand why a BG "overwhelmed by her urge to kill" would slumber someone attacking her and then on her next turn CdG them, I'm not so sure why that would justify her minions CdGing, unless they were overwhelmed by the same lust.
In fact, I can see an NPC in that situation *ordering* her minions to attack the rest of the party so that *she* could deal the death blow. (But then, I haven't played the scenario, let alone read it, so there may be nuances there I am missing.)
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Tarma, it was clarified by John in the past that 5 pp in that scenario can get your body recovered.It's not the body recovery that I'm disputing. It's the thing that specifically states that normal ways around the condition don't work. Was that part covered in the thread as well?
If you pay me your 5 prestige, I'll take care of it for you. I never liked that woman anyway.
~Lazeril of Lissala
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If a GM makes a mistake and a player doesn't earn a prestige point, can they appeal? What if it costs them gold or item access? What if they don't get their money's worth of fun at the table, can they ask for a refund from an organizer?
Reverse:
If a PC avoids a death, but the GM finds out later that a rule was handled incorrectly, can the GM appeal to a VO and kill said character?
If I make an error in the player's favor, I *usually* won't go back and change it, especially if the player is honest enough to point it out.
If I make an error that is detrimental to the players, I weigh the 'severity' of the error against how awkward it would be to fix, and decide how to proceed from there.
If character death or some kind of permanent loss was the result of my error, I'll do everything I can to fix it.
Just my $0.02.
