Illegal Character Death


Pathfinder Society


So recently I played my character 'Iron Tarkus' through the scenario "Day of the Demon. Regretfully, he did not survive to the end, but as I thought back on the way things turned out, I realized something. In the final encounter, the big bad hit me with a deep slumber spell and I managed to fail the will save, so down goes Tarkus. Wanting to capitalize on this, minion 1 performs a coup de grace. I take a pretty hefty hit but manage to roll a nat 20 on the fort save and thus survive, until minion 2 also performs a coup de grace in the same round and kills me from flat damage. It wasn't until after sheets were handed out and we all went home that I realized this:

Deep Slumber wrote:
This spell functions like sleep, except that it affects 10 HD of targets.
Sleep wrote:
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

This means that after the first coup de grace (which I survived) I would have awakened, thus no longer vulnerable to another coup de grace. Normally I wouldn't worry too much about this, mistakes happen and I doubt it was done intentionally, but we only had a four player table, and I was playing frontline, my death left the rest of the party exposed, another teammate died as well, and if it hadn't been for some timely Summon Monster spells it may well have been a TPK. The fact that my group spent money and prestige raising half the party because of an illegal kill has been kind of nagging in the back of my head. I haven't raised this with the GM or my VC/VL yet, figured I'd get some advice here first.

Shadow Lodge

My advice, talk to your GM and VC/VL.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Talk to your GM first. You always have the option to talk to your VL/VC afterwards.

Shadow Lodge

I must ask the obvious question just to be sure (and to cover the bases)
did
A) the attack drop you to negative HP ?
B) were you at or above zero after taking the damage ?

if A then there's not much you can do as Unconscious from HP Damage is as helpless as if you were asleep

if B then your Golden and 100% in the Right to appeal the death

and I would also have the other player appeal as well

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...

Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?

I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.


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If a GM makes a mistake and a player doesn't earn a prestige point, can they appeal? What if it costs them gold or item access? What if they don't get their money's worth of fun at the table, can they ask for a refund from an organizer?

Reverse:

If a PC avoids a death, but the GM finds out later that a rule was handled incorrectly, can the GM appeal to a VO and kill said character?

Silver Crusade

Pirate Rob wrote:

Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...

Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?

I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.

I think it has to do with the working under alignment infractions where the player doesn't agree that an evil act constitutes an evil act so it gets passed on up and the "evil" character gets a free rez in the way of an alignment change back to neutral. Nothing in the guide actually says anything about a free rez from death.

Edit: Welcome to the club, btw. I came out of the module scenario with scars from the death I received. Literally my VC wrote "received REDACTED scars"

Silver Crusade 5/5

As other have said above... talk to GM first, and then your VC/VL... if this situation happened to me I would not look to overturn the outcome, but I would want the GM to understand the rules for future games... that being said I was under the impression that CDG was not ok for GMs to use in PFS unless strictly written into the monsters tactics... I may be wrong about this, but even if it is allowed, it is still very poor form.


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Pirate Rob wrote:

Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...

Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?

I hear this suggested on the forums whenever somebody complains that they were killed due to a rules call that they disagree with.

Should it be stated in the guide.

As a VO we are co-ordinator's first. We are selected to represent Paizo as well as the players in our area.

Getting a questionable death overturned, is a great reason to have VO's.

I know some players that spend allot of money just flying to Con's in my area. I am speaking 5k+ to fly their families across the world to attend con's...

So if a player ever comes to me in my region and questions me about a death, I will always listen.

I have yet to over turn a GM death, but I may in the next week once I get feedback from the GM as well as another player to see if the death was valid.

Is it fair that a GM can kill a player, perhaps without recourse? Is it also fair that we may loose a player from PFS and perhaps Pathfinder because a GM may of got a bit loose with the rules killing a player.

Also talk with any co-ordinator of your event, when a weird death comes have someone take a few moments to check the rules

4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:

If a GM makes a mistake and a player doesn't earn a prestige point, can they appeal? What if it costs them gold or item access? What if they don't get their money's worth of fun at the table, can they ask for a refund from an organizer?

Reverse:

If a PC avoids at death, but the GM finds out later that a rule was handled incorrectly, can the GM appeal to a VO and kill said character?

I realized I'd been mishandling splash weapons (specifically their range increments) in a particular combat with shadows. I decided not to revisit the combat, despite the fact there would have certainly been at least one PC death without the high damage output from the alchemist which should have been all misses.

In my experience if even tactics were not followed correctly a PC death can be reversed.

First Steps 2:
I had not gotten to the ghoul's initiative in combat until the combat with the blindheim, when they didn't complete the combat before that point.
I though that "Of course, there are consequences if the PCs accept Maurit’s aid. The ghoul shadows the PCs as they explore the ruins and is always on the lookout for an opportunity to strike. She moves as stealthily as possible in the hops of not alerting the PCs. She ruthlessly strikes the PCs if they are in danger from another threat." meant that she would attack when there was a present threat, and we got to her initiative. A VO felt differently, that initiative being rolled meant that she attacked.
There was a pm stating the deaths were reversed, with no input from me, and asking me to reissue the chronicles.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Another thing of note on CdG: CdG is a full round action, so, unless both minions involved were within a 5' step of your PC, they would not have been able to CdG to begin with, or it would have taken the Standard action from their first round's actions, along with the Standard action from their second round's actions, to complete the CdGs.

Also note that, if the first CdG had dropped the PC into negative hit points, there would have been no "need" for the second CdG.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Chris Bonnet wrote:

Getting a questionable death overturned, is a great reason to have VO's.

I understand that a lot of people think that's a great part of the system. I'm not asking if it's a good idea, I'm asking where in the rules do VOs have the authority to retroactively change the result of a table based on disagreeing with a GM's rule call.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Premier Event Coordinator

Pirate Rob wrote:
I'm asking where in the rules do VOs have the authority to retroactively change the result of a table based on disagreeing with a GM's rule call.

Well, technically there is nothing in the rules that grants Brock or any other Paizo employee the ability to make a retroactive change either. This is an intuitive situation. Paizo has empowered the regional coordinators to take actions and perform routine tasks within their region as they are needed. It is a "rule" based on the hierarchy of the society. Just like GMs oversee their table and can make rulings within that environment, Regional Coordinators oversee their area and can make rulings governing said area. If necessary, a ruling can be appealed to Brock as the next level of oversight beyond the Venture-Corps.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Premier Event Coordinator

roll4initiative wrote:
In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).

There is certainly some merit to that. Many players feels that a CdG is unfair or (situationally) cheating. Since we are in the business of providing an enjoyable experience, many err of the side of not using them. OTOH, CdG is a legal mechanic within the rules and just as many players will say it is a viable action. Expect table variation.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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Here is Mike Brock's statement regarding CDG, and here is his followup clarification.

Shadow Lodge

theres actually 2 ways to do a CDG

1 is 5 ft and full round
another is with the "Begin full round action"
Move ... spend a standard action ... then spend a standard the next round to complete the maneuver

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I have to admit, as GM, I don't think I would ever do a CdG against a PC in a PFS or home game unless the creature's tactics or nature specifically say that it will. In a home game, if the NPC has a specific insane vendetta against one PC, then perhaps. In a PFS game, if the tactics say so, then yes, otherwise no. (And, in the 20-30 scenarios I've GMed, I've only ever seen tactics that say monsters use CdG against other NPCs, never against PCs.)

Part of this is me as a softie GM; I hate killing PCs. I've done it, but I always feel bad about it. But, also, players hardly ever do CdGs, because most of the time it's not good tactics. If somebody is down and not a problem, you leave them down and out of the fight and spend your time on the combatants that are still there.


roll4initiative wrote:
In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).

I am aware of at least one.

Low tier scenario with CdG tactics specifically called out:
Severing Ties has a creature that specifically calls out for a CdG. This is the only one I know of off the top of my head.

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't believe I've ever even seen a CdG listed in the tactics block in any scenario.

But just to make sure:

Spoiler:
None of the encounters in this scenario list a coup de grace

While I understand that tactics can vary based on situation I can't think of any reason to actually use this. As a GM you're not out to intentionally kill the players. So far I think I've only had one death at a table I've run due to a confirmed crit with a scythe.

IMO this was a dick move. The local VC needs to have a talk with the GM in question.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Regional Coordinators oversee their area and can make rulings governing said area. If necessary, a ruling can be appealed to Brock as the next level of oversight beyond the Venture-Corps.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me see if I can explain my thoughts...

Organizing is a lot of work, and it comes with a lot of meta-power, such as seating tables, coordinating prizes, choosing scenarios, recruiting games etc. having a tremendous influence on play in their area.

All that said, according to the guide, being an organizer or a VC doesn't grant any direct power over what goes on at a table they aren't the GM for (alignment infractions being the exception).

Clearly the community thinks they do, we may quite well be better off if they do, I'm not sure.

I think when the rules we play by differ than the rules that are written it makes me grumpy.

TwK: If you've got some extra time, do you have any other examples of "rulings governing said area" that you think are appropriate, and if you're feeling really helpful a ruling you think isn't.

Thanks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

Tarma wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
In my neck of the PFS woods (Denver), I had heard and was told by VOs and other higher-ups not to do CdGs unless the scenario specificly says so (which I've never seen).

I am aware of at least one.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah-ha! Yep. Played it but never GMd it. Wow. Really? The tactics say to do a CdG? Ouch.

4/5

There are a few scenarios with CdG's listed in tactics. Here is the relevant post.


roll4initiative wrote:


Ah-ha! Yep. Played it but never GMd it. Wow. Really? The tactics say to do a CdG? Ouch.

Making matters worse:
It's only on high tier, but yes. What's really rough is that it also specifically says that if they are sacrificed that way that they can only be brought back by wish or miracle outside of certain circumstances. And you are not likely to have those circumstances.
Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Premier Event Coordinator

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Pirate Rob wrote:
If you've got some extra time, do you have any other examples...

Only in so far as it not being resolved at the table by the GM and the players. In an ideal world, the players and the GM would discuss whatever issue they are having and come to a solution. Sometimes that would just be the GM saying, "that's the way it is. move on."

But, in the real world, not everyone can compromise. In just about every walk of life, there is a hierarchy of leadership which you can escalate appeals. Both players and GMs deserve somewhere to go for arbitration. Brock cannot possibly directly oversee 40,000+ members, so he appointed Venture-Officers to be his buffer. Organize games, answer questions, direct new players, expand into new play-spaces, and yes, arbitrate disputes in your region.

I'm not a search-fu guy, but I know that Brock has said in the past for issues, like PC deaths, to be escalated the Venture-Corps. It may not be specifically called out in the Guide, but IMO, it shouldn't have to be.

And in the end, if you don't like what the VO decides, you can still appeal it to Brock.

Sometimes, I just think we get too bent out of shape over the exactness of the text on the page. Some things should be intuitive. If people would just remember that this is a game and we're all just here to have fun, we wouldn't have nearly the complaints we see.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Grand Lodge 4/5

Tarma wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:


Ah-ha! Yep. Played it but never GMd it. Wow. Really? The tactics say to do a CdG? Ouch.

** spoiler omitted **

If you have 5PP for a Body Recovery, you have those circumstances.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I'm with Bob on this Pirate Rob.

For me it isn't about authority or power, but rather a necessary part of the job that I don't particularly like.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Alright, thanks guys for your insight.


First of all, thanks so much to everyone that gave input, this is way more than I could've hoped for in the mere hours that it's been since I made the post. To answer a few questions:

'Brief' breakdown of combat: First round BBEG yells "Get the one in metal" (Tarkus was wearing Spiked Full Plate in a party with a sorc, a wizard, and a monk) and then starts casting Deep Slumber (Full round). Minions 1 and 2 use a fear effect and the wizard and monk become panicked, and then minions move adjacent to me. I step back and cast 'Swallow Your Fear' on Monk (Adventure Path #35) and Monk becomes confused, acts normally and attacks minions. Slumber goes off and I fall asleep. Sorcerer and BBEG distract each other while Wizard flees. Minions target "the one in metal", ignoring confused monk and five footing up and CDG. Wizard continues to flee, monk continues to be confused, BBEG tells minions to target the sorc, they kill sorcerer before monk and wizard recover, wizard comes back with summoned Hound Archons, and with a bit of luck and strategy they manage to finish off the encounter. My concern is that if I wasn't helpless, my AC was high enough that I could have probably held them off long enough for the wizard to get back and save the sorc, even if Tarkus still died. With occasional help from the monk I may have even taken one or both minions with me.

Dylos wrote:
My advice, talk to your GM and VC/VL.

I was hoping to get a chance to bring this up tonight, but found out I wouldn't be able to make the session (curse you work schedule changes, curse you!), so I figured I'd ask here for some input. The GM in question is actually one of the two VL's in my area, and the VC I've only met a couple times.

Wraith235 wrote:

I must ask the obvious question just to be sure (and to cover the bases)

did
A) the attack drop you to negative HP ?
B) were you at or above zero after taking the damage ?

Tarkus's max HP is 43, with a 14 Con. He started the fight with two points of damage, so it would take 42 damage to bring him unconscious, and 55 to kill him. The first CDG did ~28, which means I would still have been conscious, and the second did slightly more.

Pirate Rob wrote:

Here's something that's been bothering me for awhile...

Where in the Guide to Organized Play (or an official post from campaign leadership) does it say that Venture Officers are able to retroactively change the results of a scenario based on a rules call by the GM that they disagree with?

I'm not trying to blare the battle horns and march to war under the appeal banner, I'm just asking for advice on what to do in this situation. The way the mod turned out has been bothering me, getting killed isn't fun for anybody and I feel like the sorc should have survived. If the consensus is for it to be appealed then sure, it should be appealed. If not, that's just as fine by me.

kinevon wrote:
Another thing of note on CdG: CdG is a full round action, so, unless both minions involved were within a 5' step of your PC, they would not have been able to CdG to begin with, or it would have taken the Standard action from their first round's actions, along with the Standard action from their second round's actions, to complete the CdGs.

Minions took the right actions and didn't do a CDG wrong, just at the wrong time.

James Becker wrote:
...CDG was not ok for GMs to use in PFS...even if it is allowed, it is still very poor form.
roll4initiative wrote:
...not to do CdGs...
Bob Jonquet wrote:
... Many players feels that a CdG is unfair or (situationally) cheating...
Soluzar wrote:
...IMO this was a dick move...

And etc. Please don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing held against this GM for doing the CDGs, the minions were told to get me and they got me. I don't think he was trying to be a dick or malicious or anything, what happened made sense to happen like that. I'm not trying to get revenge for my character's death, as I said above I'm just looking for advice. He's a great GM and a great person.

Shadow Lodge

then you now have your answer of what you should do ...

Silver Crusade

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If the minions are acting in the same initiative count, then we can think of their CdGs happening simultaneously. It is a reasonable position to say that your character was helpless for both CdGs. (It would also be reasonable to take the opposite stance too, just to be clear.)

I'm pointing this out to say that the GM didn't necessarily make a mistake simply by interpreting the situation as he did.

I would probably just try to let it go. It sucks losing a character, and I think we all feel for you. You said that you like the GM and you don't think he was being malicious. Avoid any further hurt feelings that could result if you were to go over his head, so to speak.


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The Fox wrote:

If the minions are acting in the same initiative count, then we can think of their CdGs happening simultaneously. It is a reasonable position to say that your character was helpless for both CdGs. (It would also be reasonable to take the opposite stance too, just to be clear.)

I'm pointing this out to say that the GM didn't necessarily make a mistake simply by interpreting the situation as he did.

I would probably just try to let it go. It sucks losing a character, and I think we all feel for you. You said that you like the GM and you don't think he was being malicious. Avoid any further hurt feelings that could result if you were to go over his head, so to speak.

Even on the same init count characters have their own turns by RAW so he would have woken up. Anything else is a house rule, which PFS does not endorse unless they are PFS house rules.

Whether the init is 15A and 15B or 16 and 15 it is still two separate turns. The point of the init order is just to see who goes first.

I am only stating this so people understand that same init turn does not equal "at the exact same time".

Wjere

Shadow Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
I am only stating this so people understand that same init turn does not equal "at the exact same time".

Correct; just because they are being run on the same initiative number, doesn't mean the rest of the game pauses while they take a combined turn. Even if they did all share a turn, the character would have still woken up after the first coup de grace, just as full attacking would have the character wake up after the character's first attack.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Thames Valley aka chris manning

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the OP says it was a 4 player table, for this scenario, the 4 player adjustment removes the 2nd minion from this encounter.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Again. CDG wasn't necessary. He could have had both full attack you, and it seems the encounter was not run properly. The GM made mistakes, we all make mistakes, the important thing is that he be made aware of these mistakes so they don't happen in the future. It sounds like it hasn't ruined your character or your enjoyment of the hobby, so I would make this a learning exercise for all involved and move on... Make sure you give everyone who was at the table the correct course of action so the wrong way does not perpetuate.

Shadow Lodge

chris manning wrote:
the OP says it was a 4 player table, for this scenario, the 4 player adjustment removes the 2nd minion from this encounter.

unless their APL forces them to play without the 4 player adjustment.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

<post deleted>

never mind, found it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I know the OP is just trying to get advice. But I just wanted to point out, that by all evidence, the death was not illegal. That implies willful cheating by the GM.

If it was indeed a mistake, then that's all it was. A mistake does not make it illegal.


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I just read the stat blocks for the encounter it must have been, and in the stat block, it specifically says that the BG in question is "overwhelmed by her urge to kill." With that in the stat block, I can definitely see why using minions to CDG would be considered a valid tactic, especially when she just put you to sleep.

That being said, obviously the CDG was somewhat bungled, and the second attempt shouldn't have worked. I don't think this was malicious or even wrong tactics, I believe it was a simple rule mistake. As such, it should be addressed.

However, we must be careful overturning GM calls at the table, especially after the fact. If we treat our GM community as though they are subject to constant scrutiny and are not trusted, eventually, we will run out of GMs. That's a tactic we must be diplomatic and sparing with utilizing. Personally, I've been killed a couple of times by GMs making mistakes and either illegally playing up, or forgetting to utilize the 4 player adjustment, and once, by misreading the amount of DR something has. Regrettably, it happens. And I don't think any one of us have ever run a completely perfect table.

I feel like I should close with something about glass houses and stones. I dunno.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Quote:
I just read the stat blocks for the encounter it must have been, and in the stat block, it specifically says that the BG in question is "overwhelmed by her urge to kill." With that in the stat block, I can definitely see why using minions to CDG would be considered a valid tactic, especially when she just put you to sleep.

I can understand why a BG "overwhelmed by her urge to kill" would slumber someone attacking her and then on her next turn CdG them, I'm not so sure why that would justify her minions CdGing, unless they were overwhelmed by the same lust.

In fact, I can see an NPC in that situation *ordering* her minions to attack the rest of the party so that *she* could deal the death blow. (But then, I haven't played the scenario, let alone read it, so there may be nuances there I am missing.)


Jeff Merola wrote:
Tarma wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:


Ah-ha! Yep. Played it but never GMd it. Wow. Really? The tactics say to do a CdG? Ouch.

If you have 5PP for a Body Recovery, you have those circumstances.

While I would expect some table variation, I'm not so sure there.

He's dead, Jim:
Obviously Wish and Miracle are out for tier 4-5. But even with the body recovery, I'm not so sure that you'd be able to find a cleric of Lissala willing to undo one of the sacrifices to his deity.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Tarma, it was clarified by John in the past that 5 pp in that scenario can get your body recovered.


Walter Sheppard wrote:
Tarma, it was clarified by John in the past that 5 pp in that scenario can get your body recovered.

It's not the body recovery that I'm disputing. It's the thing that specifically states that normal ways around the condition don't work. Was that part covered in the thread as well?

Paizo Employee 5/5

Tarma wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Tarma, it was clarified by John in the past that 5 pp in that scenario can get your body recovered.

It's not the body recovery that I'm disputing. It's the thing that specifically states that normal ways around the condition don't work. Was that part covered in the thread as well?

If you pay me your 5 prestige, I'll take care of it for you. I never liked that woman anyway.

~Lazeril of Lissala

5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

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Kyle Baird wrote:

If a GM makes a mistake and a player doesn't earn a prestige point, can they appeal? What if it costs them gold or item access? What if they don't get their money's worth of fun at the table, can they ask for a refund from an organizer?

Reverse:

If a PC avoids a death, but the GM finds out later that a rule was handled incorrectly, can the GM appeal to a VO and kill said character?

If I make an error in the player's favor, I *usually* won't go back and change it, especially if the player is honest enough to point it out.

If I make an error that is detrimental to the players, I weigh the 'severity' of the error against how awkward it would be to fix, and decide how to proceed from there.

If character death or some kind of permanent loss was the result of my error, I'll do everything I can to fix it.

Just my $0.02.

4/5

I think generally speaking all of us as GMs take a careful look at everything that happened in a round leading to a PC death, often making tactical choices to try to avoid such an occurrence (as well as we can within the writing). Not everyone is aware of the post by Brock explicitly stating that unless written into tactics we do NOT use CdGs. That said unless otherwise stated my intelligent bad guys focus fire as appropriate, and it does feel quite cheap that PCs use these tactics extensively (sleep into CdG), and as GMs this is not a tool in our box. Nevertheless, it is not allowed, particularly because of how lethal such a tactic ends up being.

The last module I ran had an encounter with "intelligent" but dumb foes that I knew would outright kill any member of the party if they all attacked. I spread the attacks evenly over the party, with no guidance from tactics, and had them respond to the more dangerous threats in the party accordingly. In that same module I gave a full attack to a conjuration wizard after he had taken some AoE damage. He wound up dead, so we went over each attack in the sequence to make sure he wasn't unconscious at any point in said sequence. If he had been, I probably wouldn't have attacked a downed foe, despite having nothing better to do with said attack.

As for the body recovery, I allowed the recovery of a ferret from a Baleful Polymorph with 5 prestige, which I think is as intended. I probably would have killed him if it wasn't so darned cute to have a comparable high level arcane caster as my new pseudo familiar...

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
David_Bross wrote:
Not everyone is aware of the post by Brock explicitly stating that unless written into tactics we do NOT use CdGs.
Pirate Rob wrote:
Here is Mike Brock's statement regarding CDG, and here is his followup clarification.

Shadow Lodge

James McTeague wrote:
David_Bross wrote:
Not everyone is aware of the post by Brock explicitly stating that unless written into tactics we do NOT use CdGs.
Pirate Rob wrote:
Here is Mike Brock's statement regarding CDG, and here is his followup clarification.

If the tactics don't call out the enemies taking the time to finish people off for good, then they don't "warrant" a CdG right out of the gate.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Tarma wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Tarma, it was clarified by John in the past that 5 pp in that scenario can get your body recovered.

It's not the body recovery that I'm disputing. It's the thing that specifically states that normal ways around the condition don't work. Was that part covered in the thread as well?

Yes. The clarification was that for the cost of a standard body recovery, the Pathfinder Society could get a Lissalan cleric to perform the Raise Dead (which you still had to pay for separately).

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