Kitsune Rogue PFS Build


Advice

The Exchange

Looking for feedback on this build, I have never done a two weapon fighter before and I wanted to stay away from the feint and two weapon feint feat charts.

Kitsune Rogue Scout Arch Type
Ability Scores 12 18 12 13 10 12 after racial mods Level 4 +1 Dex, Level 8 +1 dex, level 12 +1 int

Traits Observant (Grand Lodge), Veteran of Battle (Gorum) help with drawing weapons in a surprise round to work well with underhanded.

1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue
3 Combat Expertise
4 Rogue Combat Trick - Blind Fight
5 Kitsune Realistic Likeness or Shadow Strike
6 Ninja Trick - Pressure Points and Rogue Talent - Weapon Training (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)
7 Moonlight Stalker
8 Rogue Talent - Underhanded
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Rogue Talent - Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Unwitting Ally, Talent Feat - Gangup ? (not really sure)
11 Whatever feat I didn't take at 5th.
12 The two Advanced Talents I didn't take at 10 (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

So I really want to take Kitsune Realstic Likeness for RP flavor earlier on but that really hampers my hitting concealed opponents.
I know I could achieve the same affect with like a hat of disguise, etc.

So things I like about this build I can do 3 str or 2 str & 1 dex with each sneak attack at higher levels.

Around 7th level I am going to get a cloak of minor displacement so I get my moonlight stalker bonus all the time except for a cleric with true sight cast.

Underhanded really lets me control the surprise round, with being able to draw a weapon as a free action I get to basically kill whatever I attack opening scene.

At low levels the bite attack can be helpful trying to get more damage and sneak attack in, Weapon Finesse stacks with the bite which makes it even better.

Scout Arch type does make me lose uncanny dodge but I feel like Scout's Charge and Skirmisher that are basically going to let me sneak attacks more often. Even if I have to re position via tumble to get a flank I still get a sneak attack which is nice.

Equipment
I am going for two short swords with one being cold iron and one being silversheen to help overcome damage reduction. The silversheen one is eventually be +1 holy while the cold iron one will be +1 agile and be the main handed weapon.
I am not so worried about hit penalties with two weapon fighting, once i can get a 4k gold item going to get a cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun stone and put it in a wayfinder. When I can afford 8k going to get a vanishing wayfinder to get invis basically 5 times a day to help with the sneak attacks.


I'm seeing two problems you're going to have to find ways to shore up. Both problems crop up around the level 7+ range -

1) Very squishy. Your AC and lack of HP vs your possible damage out put makes you a prime target. Be prepared to take lots and lots of damage.
There are ways to shore this up with feats and rogue talents. Of which one of the Feats you took - Combat Expertise, helps. Problem with combat expertise is that it will reduce your +to hit. Something you'll have to decide if it's worth grabbing the feat for or not. If possible, I'd hold off on grabbing Combat Expertise till a later level and decide then if you can loose those plusses to hit it takes away.

2) Lack of Fort and Will saves.
Expect to get hit with one of those saves, at least multiple times in the higher tier scenarios. Failing one of these saves can really mess your character up.
With the slow progression for both of these saves this can be very bad and you will need to find ways to shore them up. With either feats or items.

Items: Your Silversheen Short sword. If looking to go with something like that, you might as will make it Mithral. It will be a bit more pricy but it has a better hardness, hit points, counts as masterwork, and is considered a silver weapon.

Liberty's Edge

One of my highest level PFS characters is a 2 weapon fighting rogue. I agree regarding the comments about 'squishiness'. I'd recommend fitting in the Offensive Defense rogue talent so you can grab extra dodge bonus from your sneak attacks. You should also consider taking a lot of UMD and/or dipping into an arcane class to use a wand of Shield.

Silvered slashing and piercing weapons are -1 damage. Mitrhal bypasses silver DR, and "my agile mithral short sword" sounds way cooler. ;-)

Iron Will. Try to fit it in. Every time I nearly bought it, it was a will save that did me in.

The Exchange

So response to the mithril, it is for those sick puppies that like to have things that will rust your weapons like oozes or rust monsters. They also don't take the -1 to damage.

Blades made of this special metal count as alchemical silver weapons and are immune to rust, including that of rust monsters, the rusting grasp spell, and so on. They are always masterwork weapons—most often scimitars or longswords; the listed price includes the cost of the masterwork bonus.
No aura (nonmagical property); CL —; Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, Craft (weaponsmithing) 5 ranks; Price +750 gp.

In response to Very squishy yeah I realize that, especially since I am losing a possible 12 hp by not doing my favor class bonus in it. I am maxing out UMD, I am also going to be throwing in a wand of false life with a wand of shield as well to help out with some of that ac and hp problems.

Ways I am thinking of mitigating this is around that level Vanishing Wayfinder, the invis will help me get out of hard places as well.

Also the constant 20% miss chance should help somewhat.

I looked at Offensive Defense rogue talent but it seems like it was nuked to where the dodge bonus don't stack with itself and the ac bonus only goes with the target you attacked.

I admit there is going to be a somewhat glaring problem with saves, I have my free reroll that I save for saves and because of my cloak choice I can't really get a cloak of resistance.

Contributor

Generally speaking, Two-Weapon Fighting is a bit of a trap option for rogues. The rogue is the only Medium BAB class in the game that can't improve its attack bonus significantly, so most of the time those extra attacks are only going to have a 5% chance of landing. When they hit, its awesome, but statistically you're only averaging an extra 4 damage or so by taking Two-Weapon Fighting. I personally don't think its worth it, especially because you're going to have a VERY difficult Level 1.

The reason Level 1 is going to suck for you is that you want to be a Dex-based character, but you don't get Weapon Finesse until Level 2. This is the same problem that the early Swashbuckler had in the ACG playtest. For that first level, you'll be taking a –1 penalty on all attack rolls thanks to your abysmal strength. This means that if you did use Two-Weapon Fighting, you'd be stuck with a –3 penalty on attack rolls for the round, which hurts.

Also, you took Combat Expertise but you didn't really select anything to build upon it. Its a bit of a wasted feat and you can't really afford another penalty on attack rolls if you're also using Two-Weapon Fighting. If I were you, I'd take Weapon Finesse as my first feat and grab Combat Trick instead at 2nd level. Its not as efficient with your rogue talents, but its better than being bored for the first level of play. I'd also take the Kitsune Trickster archetype. Because it only trades trapfinding and trap sense, it stacks with scout. Plus the archetype does an excellent job of playing off of a high Intelligence, which your selection of Combat Expertise implies is something you're after.

In short, I would alter your choices as follows:

1) Kitsune Guile, Sneak Attack +1d6 (Weapon Finesse)
2) Evasion, Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Combat Expertise)
3) Charm Person 1/Day, Sneak Attack +2d6 (Improved Feint)
4) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training [Rapier], Scout's Charge
5) Sneak Attack +3d6 (Realistic Likeness)
6) Charm Person 2/Day, Rogue Talent: Offensive Defensive
7) Sneak Attack +4d6 (Your Choice)
8) Rogue Talent: [Your Choice] , Skirmisher
9) Charm Person 3/Day, Sneak Attack +5d6 (Vital Strike)
10) Advanced Talent: Feat [Devastating Strike]
11) Sneak Attack +6d6 (Your Choice)
12) Advanced Talent: [Your Choice]

Here are some reasons:

#1 — It is not an effective strategy to count on getting a surprise round. Most of the time, you will not. That means most of your abilities don't work.
#2 — You have no way to assure that you will have concealment against your opponent. This means that Moonlight Stalker isn't a very good investment on your part. It is situationally useful at best unless you dedicate all of your selections into making the combo work.
#3 — As a kitsune, you can cast dancing lights a few times per day. This means that you CAN count on having a light source if you need one, lessening the importance of Shadow Strike.

With this build, you put the fact that you are a smart, charismatic fox to work. Kitsune guile allows you to add your Intelligence bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Disguise checks, which is FANTASTIC. Especially at 3rd level, when you receive Improved Feint. With such a huge bonus to Bluff checks, you'll be very likely to feint most opponents in combat, which means you get a sneak attack.

As you level up, Scout gives you plenty of ways to easily sneak attack foes, but all of them don't allow a full-attack. For example, you can't Two-Weapon Fight during a charge, nor can you Two-Weapon Fight while feinting (without Two-Weapon Feint) or while moving with skirmisher. For that reason, I chose Vital Strike so you can get a few more dice of damage on your damage roll since you'll be too busy for full attacks most days anyway. Devastating Strike will also help improve your damage when you use Vital Strike.

Are you going to be a master of damage-dealing disaster? No, but you'll almost always earn yourself a sneak attack, and consistency is an important thing to have in Pathfinder Society. Unless you can assure yourself of who you are going to play with, you can't always be sure that you'll have conditions the way that you want them.


Vulpine pounce is pretty good, but you only get to it at 12+ sadly.

Why not play scout ninja instead of rogue anyway? You could put your CHA bonus to good use.

Shadow Lodge

zenseer wrote:

One of my highest level PFS characters is a 2 weapon fighting rogue. I agree regarding the comments about 'squishiness'. I'd recommend fitting in the Offensive Defense rogue talent so you can grab extra dodge bonus from your sneak attacks. You should also consider taking a lot of UMD and/or dipping into an arcane class to use a wand of Shield.

Silvered slashing and piercing weapons are -1 damage. Mitrhal bypasses silver DR, and "my agile mithral short sword" sounds way cooler. ;-)

Iron Will. Try to fit it in. Every time I nearly bought it, it was a will save that did me in.

This is good advice.

Offensive Defense is a very strong Rogue Talent. I suggest getting it as soon as you can.
Wand of Shield is good, until you can afford a wand of Mirror Image, then use both if possible.
Definitely try to get Iron Will to fit somewhere.

I suggest having identical melee weapons. If you don't, keeping track of the different bonuses / penalties will be frustrating, especially once you start rolling four or more attacks in a round.
At least try to color-coordinate your dice.

The River Rat trait gives you +1 damage when using daggers, if you're willing to switch your selection. Daggers give you a ranged option, which can be nice.

Remember that in PFS, cracked Ioun Stones do not have resonance; if you put them in a Wayfinder, they just keep providing their effects without floating around your head. No extra powers.
The Pale Green Prism is a good idea though.

The Kitsune Rogue Talents aren't super-powerful, but they look like they could be fun. If you want to be more social, it might be worth it.
Definitely think about the alternate favored class bonus to get an extra talent. Totally worth 6 HP.

The Exchange

Alex I am bypassing level 2 and most of level 2 completely with GM credits, so I am not really worried about first level, I do admit it would be an issue normally. Part of the reason why I didn't want to take the Kitsune archtype is that I am giving up magical trapfinding for basically a plus 1 to some skills till 12 level. I feel like magical traps are going to come up more often then the +1 is going to be worth it.

Moonlight stalker requires blindfight and combat expertise and with a cloak of minor displacement around the same level as I get it basically +2 to hit and dam all the time.

With my bonus to acrobatics and and skirmisher by 8th level I don't really need to worry about feinting.

I looked at the vital strike tree and I just wasn't that really big of a fan. If i was I would be taking a 18-20 crit range weapon with a GM boon.

Contributor

Frenir wrote:

Alex I am bypassing level 2 and most of level 2 completely with GM credits, so I am not really worried about first level, I do admit it would be an issue normally. Part of the reason why I didn't want to take the Kitsune archtype is that I am giving up magical trapfinding for basically a plus 1 to some skills till 12 level. I feel like magical traps are going to come up more often then the +1 is going to be worth it.

Moonlight stalker requires blindfight and combat expertise and with a cloak of minor displacement around the same level as I get it basically +2 to hit and dam all the time.

With my bonus to acrobatics and and skirmisher by 8th level I don't really need to worry about feinting.

I looked at the vital strike tree and I just wasn't that really big of a fan. If i was I would be taking a 18-20 crit range weapon with a GM boon.

I wouldn't be too sure about the traps. Paizo's encounters are often designed to be accommodating to everyone, regardless of class build. Too many traps would mean that a character with trapfinding is required and you can't count on having one of those in your party in PFS.

For example, I'm playing a kitsune bellflower tiller with trapfinding in Wrath of the Righteous. We're almost done book 2 and despite all of my searching, we've only encountered ONE trap so far.

The Exchange

Tomos I have seen to many things with need either cold iron or silver damage resistance and if you don't break the resistance sneak attack is worthless , it is easy for me to keep track of using color coded dice.

The Exchange

I do thing offense defense instead of Pressure points at 6 is a good idea.

Grand Lodge

I'm kind of sad to see a Kitsune that isn't a Fey Sorc. =( I know if I had a kitsune boon I would totally be a enchantment specialist. I don't even know where to look for the boon to be honest.

But one thing I noticed...No Arcane Strike? Kitsune magic Qualifies you for the feat and if your still going 2wF it is a way to add a little more damage to both attacks at the expense of a swift action that you hardly will use.

Quote:
Why not play scout ninja instead of rogue anyway? You could put your CHA bonus to good use.

I will +1 this. Ninja is superior to the rogue. Also taking advantage of the Cha in PFS will go far with out of combat as well.

The Exchange

Fruian Thistlefoot I already have a arcane caster and trying to play things I haven't played before.

My understanding of arcane strike since I am not progressing as a caster it always it stuck at +1. Granted I could use it low level and retrain but I have a ton of eq that is going to be costly managing gold for this is going to be tough.

On the ninja point I went back and forth on whether to play a ninja or not or even if it made sense to dual ninja and rogue at some point.

Ninja lets me use vanishing tricks and shadow clone to do what I could do with wands and umd. I know I could simulate two weapon fighting with ki points and just take extra ki for the extra attacks and not take the -2.

I guess I could spec out a Kitsune Ninja would a similar theme and see if I like it or not. I also wanted him to be more of a tricky type of guy. Like assume the form of someone else and get ya, I know that is harder with pathfinder.


There's nothing stopping you from using TWF with a ninja. You can even keep thee scout archetype.

Arcane strike levels with you since your SLA levels with you.

Contributor

Frenir wrote:
My understanding of arcane strike since I am not progressing as a caster it always it stuck at +1. Granted I could use it low level and retrain but I have a ton of eq that is going to be costly managing gold for this is going to be tough.
Bestiary 1 wrote:
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

It progresses.

Grand Lodge

Thank you Alexander...I was looking for the ruling to quote it.

It was just a suggestion for arcane strike. Power attack offers too much negatives for a medium BaB character. Arcane strike offers no negative to hit and applies to BOTH weapons. I know static damage isn't the greatest on a rogue but it does help you power through some DR if you choose to just power through it instead of getting special Costly weapons. Your already buying 2 weapons spreading out your weapon costs. Means your going to be shelling out more $$.

Another thought just occured to me....Swashbuckler. Dex & Cha....Arcane strike to help make up the difference in Str. Pretty darn nice. Perhaps in a home game I will try it since I can't find a Kitsune Boon.

The Exchange

Well damn learn something new everyday. Does does this stack with a +1 damage of magic on a weapon ?

Grand Lodge

Arcane strike is an untyped + to damage.

Weapons enchanted have an Enchantment Bonus.

They are not same named type of boost....so yes they stack up together.

The Exchange

Since ninja is an alt class feature for rogue does the Kitsune Favored class still apply?

Grand Lodge

Yep

The Exchange

So try this one on for size.

Kitsune Ninja Scout Arch Type
Ability Scores 10 18 14 10 10 15 after racial mods Level 4 +1 Dex, Level 8 +1 dex, level 12 +1 cha

1 Weapon Finesse
2 Ninja Trick - Vanishing Trick
3 Arcane Strike
4 Ninja Trick - Darkvision, Scout's Charge
5 Kitsune Realistic Likeness
6 Ninja Trick - Pressure Points or Forgotten Trick and Rogue Talent - Offensive Defense* (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)
7 Iron Will
8 Ninja Trick - Weapon Training - wakizashi , Skirmisher
9 Toughness or Extra Ki
10 Advanced Ninja Trick - Invisible Blade
11 Improved Critical - wakizashi
12 Advanced Ninja Trick - Assassinate, Rogue Talent - Ninja Trick - Evasion (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

Primary weapon would be a wakizashi that would be getting to +1 Agile as fast as I could

I really have dropped the two weapon because of Ninja ability to spend a Ki point for an extra attack really I am only wanting that when I am flanking so I can crank the damage and I can use a ki point for that.

Will have some daggers as backup weapons and I can throw them as well if I am invis don't want to mix it up yet.

Grand Lodge

The only overlap you might have is using your Ki pool or Arcane strike.
Not the biggest deal as ki pool for an extra attack is for a full round attack. And ki pool is a limited resource you will be using for other abilities. But those other abilities are what makes a Ninja superior to a Rogue. so it will help you lay more damage when you are not full attacking. If you full attack and spend a Ki point you will get more damage because the extra sneak attack. Also it will apply to your ranged weapon acting in place of deadly aim.

I will vote for Iron will at level 7. That's the level people start popping up those critical will saves.

The Exchange

From what I read you can use Arcane Strike with Full Round Attack and even use your Ki Point to get an extra attack to really lay down the hurt.

Main 4 combat situations I think I will encounter.

Charging a caster, get sneak attack on the attack due to Scout.

Need to Spend a Ki point for invis because I want to sneak attack with dagger or no flanking options even with a acrobatics tumble.

Full attack, I have flanking or can get it with a 5 ft step or have improved invis and need to drop someone fast.

Low on KI points and after 8 levels I can use acrobatics to move 10 feet to position myself into flanking if I need to, or strike and withdraw if possible.

K I tweaked it to take iron will at 7.

Shadow Lodge

I agree with everything Fruian said.
Ninja gives you more options than Rogue and I endorse this recommendation.

Frenir wrote:
Tomos I have seen to many things with need either cold iron or silver damage resistance and if you don't break the resistance sneak attack is worthless , it is easy for me to keep track of using color coded dice.

Well, if you have two of each, then both of your attacks will bypass the DR. You could easily have a set of Cold Iron shortswords and a set of Silver shortswords. I highly recommend it.

With a Ninja, you can put silver blanch on some cold iron shuriken and get them both at the same time.

Color coded dice works. Getting all of your attacks through the enemy DR is important too.

If you choose Ninja, take Wakizashi instead of shortsword. It's definitely a step up.

The Exchange

Hey Tomos, I think I am just going with a cold iron Wakizashi, I will have some silver daggers and cold iron daggers to throw. Till I can get holy on my Wakizashi just going to have a few oil of bless around.

Final weapon should be a +1 Cold Iron Holy Agile Wakizashi.

If i still want to stab something with the Dagger I can, weapon finesse still works with them so not losing much.

I also can carry some silver blanch as well for the occasional devil you run into.

Contributor

Frenir wrote:
From what I read you can use Arcane Strike with Full Round Attack and even use your Ki Point to get an extra attack to really lay down the hurt.

Activating Arcane Strike is a swift action. So is spending a ki point to gain an additional attack with ki pool. Arcane Strike is for opponents with a higher-than-average AC while ki pool shines when you are fighting something that is easier to hit. Ki is also for big battles, as you can arcane strike all day long, but you have limited ki points.

Contributor

Frenir wrote:

Hey Tomos, I think I am just going with a cold iron Wakizashi, I will have some silver daggers and cold iron daggers to throw. Till I can get holy on my Wakizashi just going to have a few oil of bless around.

Final weapon should be a +1 Cold Iron Holy Agile Wakizashi.

If i still want to stab something with the Dagger I can, weapon finesse still works with them so not losing much.

I also can carry some silver blanch as well for the occasional devil you run into.

I wouldn't go with this weapon. Magic cold iron weapons are REALLY expensive (you have to increase their base cost to make them magical). Plus you want all of the bonuses you can get to hit stuff. Swapping out Holy for either another +1 enhancement bonus or for keen would be much better. Wakizashis have a 18-20 crit range, so keen doubles that to 15-20. Huge critical hit chance.

Shadow Lodge

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Frenir wrote:

Hey Tomos, I think I am just going with a cold iron Wakizashi, I will have some silver daggers and cold iron daggers to throw. Till I can get holy on my Wakizashi just going to have a few oil of bless around.

Final weapon should be a +1 Cold Iron Holy Agile Wakizashi.

If i still want to stab something with the Dagger I can, weapon finesse still works with them so not losing much.

I also can carry some silver blanch as well for the occasional devil you run into.

I wouldn't go with this weapon. Magic cold iron weapons are REALLY expensive (you have to increase their base cost to make them magical). Plus you want all of the bonuses you can get to hit stuff. Swapping out Holy for either another +1 enhancement bonus or for keen would be much better. Wakizashis have a 18-20 crit range, so keen doubles that to 15-20. Huge critical hit chance.

Yeah, it's +2000gp just to be able to enchant a Cold Iron Weapon.

I think you could keep two masterwork Cold Iron Wakizashi around and use your oil of Bless Weapon on them if you needed to fight Fey or Demons or something.
Bless Weapon is an awesome spell.

Keen Wakizashis are awesome, even for a Ninja with a low Strength bonus.
It's too bad Wyroot is banned in PFS.

Regular or Adamantine Wakizashis are a better deal.
You could go for broke and get two +3 Wakizashis and bypass both Cold Iron and Silver Damage Reduction.

It's a good idea to keep a bunch of daggers handy, especially if they're made from a variety of materials.

+1 Holy is awesome.
Until you can afford that, try +1 Menacing on one of them. Gives you a +4 instead of a +2 to hit for flanking.
The other could be +1 Spell Storing; have your party Wizard or Cleric cast something interesting in there.
They might want to hang out in the back where it's safe, but you would totally walk right up there and touch whatever it is...


For twf rogue I go with daggers. Twf finesse point blank shot quickndraw. There's a feat that lets you flank from any direction provided others threaten it (I cannot remember its name)

If you take bandit archetype and underhanded you can do aweful things if you surprise the enemy. Snapshot could turn this into "I win".

Sadly the downer to the above is I noticed surprising enemies in pfs is pretty difficult.

The Exchange

Mojorat the feat you are thinking is gangup. Maybe just normal sword for now keep some masterwork daggers of different types because I can.


Two-weapon fighting is usually a bad idea except for one infamous example.

As a rogue you can also add the Thug archetype to lengthen shaken enemy durations, and automatically convert 4 rounds of shaken to frightened, in addition to making them sickened. Key feats are Enforcer => Shatter Defenses => Sap Adept => Sap Master to allow you to intimidate enemies as a free action whenever you deal nonlethal, make shaken enemies flat-footed, double your nonlethal sneak attack dice and apply that doubled number of die as additional nonlethal weapon damage per hit. That's huge. The TWF feat tree will maximize opportunities to hit your flat-footed enemies.

Talents and things that scale off your sneak attacks are suddenly doubled through this trick. Double your AC from Offensive Defense, double your bleed damage from Bleeding Attack - and so forth. It's amazingly strong.

If you're worried about flavour, you could take the Weapon Style Lantern Lodge faction trait to gain Sai proficiency, though you'd need to take Bludgeoner or make these Merciful (I wouldn't recommend this). Your Sai would then do nonlethal bludgeoning damage.

Alternatively, if you want to keep your main build, I would strongly suggest switching to Ninja both for wakizashis, spending ki for additional attacks and the Cha synergy. You could easily add the Blade of Mercy trait to deal nonlethal with slashing, and with Enforcer + keen weapons or Improved Critical you'd frighten the enemy whenever you crit. If the enemy is frightened they're running away, which is a form of damage mitigation in itself.

Shadow Lodge

Katydid wrote:

Two-weapon fighting is usually a bad idea except for one infamous example.

As a rogue you can also add the Thug archetype to lengthen shaken enemy durations, and automatically convert 4 rounds of shaken to frightened, in addition to making them sickened. Key feats are Enforcer => Shatter Defenses => Sap Adept => Sap Master to allow you to intimidate enemies as a free action whenever you deal nonlethal, make shaken enemies flat-footed, double your nonlethal sneak attack dice and apply that doubled number of die as additional nonlethal weapon damage per hit. That's huge. The TWF feat tree will maximize opportunities to hit your flat-footed enemies.

Talents and things that scale off your sneak attacks are suddenly doubled through this trick. Double your AC from Offensive Defense, double your bleed damage from Bleeding Attack - and so forth. It's amazingly strong.

If you're worried about flavour, you could take the Weapon Style Lantern Lodge faction trait to gain Sai proficiency, though you'd need to take Bludgeoner or make these Merciful (I wouldn't recommend this). Your Sai would then do nonlethal bludgeoning damage.

Alternatively, if you want to keep your main build, I would strongly suggest switching to Ninja both for wakizashis, spending ki for additional attacks and the Cha synergy. You could easily add the Blade of Mercy trait to deal nonlethal with slashing, and with Enforcer + keen weapons or Improved Critical you'd frighten the enemy whenever you crit. If the enemy is frightened they're running away, which is a form of damage mitigation in itself.

You had to bring that up didn't you? :P

The Bludgeoner nonlethal strategy works great with Ninjas, but like the Slumber Hex, it will get boring fast.
Don't tell him that it works with ranged weapons too...

The Exchange

I have seen that brokenness and the sad part is I can't help bring down another enemy with it, I just get to one shot things on my own which makes it not fun for other players. So I say no to the Thug.


Wait, are we saying that a build for the *rogue* is too powerful? :D

Remember one thing, though - facing constructs and undead would negate the Sap Master because they're immune to nonlethal and fear.

Like many have pointed out, picking a ninja would then be the mechanically superior choice compared to rogue. Another good option for the Ninja Scout would actually be dipping one level in Flowing Monk for the free Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Finesse. Then you could wear Brawling armor, take the TWF/Shatter Defenses/Sap Master feat trees and ignore that early cost in both weapon enchants. Your targets would no longer be frightened from Thug, but only shaken.

If you wanted to segue from roleplaying into combat, one way to make Realistic Likeness halfway useful would be to take Quick Draw => Persuasive => Betrayer. Shapeshift into a form the target is friendly towards, increase their attitude, immediate-action attack them and then begin the surprise round.

The Exchange

So I don't need quick draw because I can always draw my weapon as a free action during the surprise round. The other feat making everyone in a surprise round treated as flat footed is slightly better I think.


Two weapon fighting for sneak attacks is one of those things that looks amazing on paper, but rarely works out like you'd want it to. I have a tengu rogue with claws and in 9 levels i think i've gotten of a full round sneak attack twice.

This goes doubly so in PFS. You plan on fighting with a party with the combat acumen of Hanibal. You wind up with a herd of cats that have never worked together before.

Especially on a race with a charisma bonus, i cannot reccommend going ninja enough. File off the eastern pajamas serial numbers if you don't like them.

The Exchange

I agree BigNorseWolf, that is why Ninja seems better, I can blow a Ki point if I am serious about doing some extra sneak attack damage and with the bite I get that rare off chance off 3 atacks.

The Exchange

Also to help with some of those will saves I just can't really make I plan on adding in this magic item.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/seduc er-s-bane

+5 to sense motive and then +5 resistance to will saves vs enchantment

I also like the flavor of it as well.

Oh you thought I was dominated, well sneak attack b%$*! bet your are flat footed now.

The Exchange

Well after surviving Bonekeep Level 1 without any of the diseases I feel pretty good about the character. I made some slight tweaks from the progression. I opted out of taking Arcane Strike, I found I was using my swift action way to much to be of much use. I found 7 uses of Ki a day was extremely useful especially for getting me out of the oh god this is going to hurt kinda situations. I have found even with flanking and being invisible sometimes I still don't connect which is because of the slow bab bonus. Next item to pick up is a Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun stone for the +1. My Agile weapon is now also starting to be solid with 1d6 + 6 + 3d6 sneak attack. It is such a solid hit that I become the target so lowering their attack and increasing my AC Against them has been the priority.

Completed So Far
Kitsune Ninja
Ability Scores 10 18 14 10 10 15 after racial mods Level 4 +1 Cha, Level 8 +1 dex, level 12 +1 dex
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Ninja Trick - Vanishing Trick
3 Kitsune Realistic Likeness
4 Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Offensive Defense*
5 Extra Ki
6 Ninja Trick - Weapon Training Wakizashi and Rogue Talent - Befuddling Strike (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

Here is where I am thinking for the next few levels.

7 Iron Will
8 Ninja Trick - Wall Climber
9 Toughness or Improved Iron Will
10 Advanced Ninja Trick - Invisible Blade
11 Improved Critical - wakizashi
12 Advanced Ninja Trick - Assassinate, Rogue Talent - Ninja Trick - Evasion (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

Sovereign Court

Improving To hit
Menacing weapon gets you an additional +2 on flank. Headband of ninjitsu add another +2 on sneak attack.

Ninja trick / Pressure points - dex reduction per hit.


My suggestion is to take the Amateur Swashbuckler feat. You already have a high CHA, this will allow you to to Parry attacks to negate them completely, and get a couple of free AoO.

The Exchange

I had though about taking the Swashbuckler Feat as well at level 9. Iron will is just to much of a biggie. I think it will help when people attack me multiple times by parrying the second attack.

I can't really afford more on the weapon it is already a +1 agile weapon and cost limits are really going to get expensive. I was going to add holy to it to help with evil creatures and creatures with good dr.

I considered the headband of ninjitsu but right now the 15k is out of my price range. I rather pay 4k for a +1 in all situations, I am not really having a problem getting past concealment due to dancing lights and other things but I appreciate the idea.

Part of the reason I am taking wallclimber is to help me get around the battlefield more. I have been finding that people I can't get to in mele are due to flight now more in modules and it is better then throwing a dagger at them.

Grand Lodge

Make your weapon adamantine for season 6. Holy is expensive and a oil of bless weapon 50 gold bypasses DR. A +1 adamantine agile rapier is a very good weapon for season 6.


oops not an option in pfs

The Exchange

I have a boon that decreases the price for holy by 10% and another boon that decreases the cost of 1 purchase a session by 10% and they stack. So the price isn't as bad as you think for holy.

I see everyone going Adamantine for last season. I know there are a ton of constructs but I just picked up 20 adamantine arrows for my short bow and called it good.

Grand Lodge

If your switching weapons and buying ammo would not a golems bane clasp be just as effecient?
Most people argue Natural armor takes a hit...but is that +1-+2 armor as effecient as ending the fight quicker.

But when it comes to rogue Your better off grabbing UMD solutions to swarms.

The Exchange

I use that slot for something else, that is my resistance and temporary hitpoints slot because I use my cloak for something else as well. I have long given up on being the main damage dealer, what I do excel at is keeping the party alive and getting into flank for other party members. I buff myself long enough to keep from getting pasted.

I am also not switching weapons just upgrading. I chose a reasonable upgrade path so I don't have to keep selling the weapon back every time. I don't plan on swapping out my weapon till level 9-10. Right now it is secondary eq like a 8k for a wayfinder that grants invis and 10k for another resistance item.

I shouldn't need to redo the character for season 6, hell if he can make it through bonekeep I think he is reasonably optimized right now but I just don't know how bad higher level mods are for will saves. I know bonekeep was freaking murder with them but that isn't typical.

I haven't generally run hi tier specials except with my cleric and well he is just a cluster of brokenness and channeling and his will saves are pretty silly at this point.

I was debating on picking up the ratskull from bonekeep to counter swarms with swarms, plus I have a few other tricks up the character sleeve. He has a wand of magic missles and I am saving up for a wand of scorching ray to do for ranged sneak attacks with and to help deal with swarms.


Frenir wrote:

Looking for feedback on this build, I have never done a two weapon fighter before and I wanted to stay away from the feint and two weapon feint feat charts.

Kitsune Rogue Scout Arch Type
Ability Scores 12 18 12 13 10 12 after racial mods Level 4 +1 Dex, Level 8 +1 dex, level 12 +1 int

Traits Observant (Grand Lodge), Veteran of Battle (Gorum) help with drawing weapons in a surprise round to work well with underhanded.

1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue
3 Combat Expertise
4 Rogue Combat Trick - Blind Fight
5 Kitsune Realistic Likeness or Shadow Strike
6 Ninja Trick - Pressure Points and Rogue Talent - Weapon Training (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)
7 Moonlight Stalker
8 Rogue Talent - Underhanded
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Rogue Talent - Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Unwitting Ally, Talent Feat - Gangup ? (not really sure)
11 Whatever feat I didn't take at 5th.
12 The two Advanced Talents I didn't take at 10 (took favored class bonus for kitsune 6 times)

So I really want to take Kitsune Realstic Likeness for RP flavor earlier on but that really hampers my hitting concealed opponents.
I know I could achieve the same affect with like a hat of disguise, etc.

So things I like about this build I can do 3 str or 2 str & 1 dex with each sneak attack at higher levels.

Around 7th level I am going to get a cloak of minor displacement so I get my moonlight stalker bonus all the time except for a cleric with true sight cast.

Underhanded really lets me control the surprise round, with being able to draw a weapon as a free action I get to basically kill whatever I attack opening scene.

At low levels the bite attack can be helpful trying to get more damage and sneak attack in, Weapon Finesse stacks with the bite which makes it even better.

Scout Arch type does make me lose uncanny dodge but I feel like Scout's Charge and Skirmisher that are basically going to let me sneak attacks more often. Even if I have to re position via...

Make it a kitsune ninja and play it as if it were a rogue. "Dress" it as a "rogue" and roleplay it as one, too. You'll love the new changes they made to rogue ;)

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