Ok, this is the first time I have ever asked a question so if it's stupid or covered else where please forgive me and tell me where to look.
In our gaming group I am playing a fourth lev fighter. I have a great axe as my main weapon and full plate for armor. I have a good strength stat of 17. The armor makes me really slow so I recently bought some potions of enlarge person to give myself some reach.
My dungeon master attacked the party with an endless series of skeletons and I drank one of my potions to give myself attacks of opportunity.
When my DM read over the enlarge spell she pointed out that if you multiply the weight of my gear by eight (even if I dropped everything but my armor and axe) that my gear now weighs 496 lbs. My strength of 17 + 2 = 19 only gave me a heavy load max of 350 lbs.
Because of this she ruled that I was pinned under the weight of my own gear and could not move or fight. :-(
I have looked for more info on this and have since found that a large creature has twice the carrying capacity however this still seems ridicules as it would still move me from a light load to a heavy load.
I am assuming that the +2 strength in the enlarge spell is a typo since the size categories for monsters have the strength scores go up much more per level. Dose anyone know if this error was corrected anywhere. I can't use the potions unless I can prove to her it was an error from an official paizo source.
Thanks for the help
No, the +2 strength is correct.
Did you remember to take into account the size modifier to carrying capacity? Large creatures have double the carrying capacity of a Medium creature with the same strength score.
A Medium creature with a Strength of 19 has a heavy load max of 350 pounds. But a Large creature with a Strength of 19 has a heavy load max of 700 pounds. Quadrupeds (like horses) carry even more than that.
Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.
Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24
We did not know about the doubled carrying capacity at the time but I have found out about it since. However doubling the carrying capacity is not coming anywhere close to compensating for your gear's weight multiplying by 8. As it stands this spell is better for attacking a fighter then it is for buffing him.
That's really weird. Unless you have mithral gear or a strength through the moon, Enlarge Person seems way worse than originally thought.
If your gear is 496 lbs and you double your weight capacity to 700- you should be fine.
Granted a medium load is 466 so you may want to find something to shed (or get some mithril..) but it ought still be doable. (the penalty for a heavy load is exactly the same as for wearing full plate- and they don't stack, you use the worse of the two.)
so yeah- you can carry another 204 lbs before being terribly bothered by it all.
May want to keep extra stuff in a backpack you can drop on the floor though if you can't manage the extra 200lbs when enlarged.
-S
I dropped all the rest of my gear the 496 lbs is just from my axe and armor. You are correct that heavy armors penalties are the same at lev 4 however I will get...
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
So when I reach lev 7 I will effected by the weight again.
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You're doing it all wrong .:)
The 8xweight is just for creatures(square-cube law), enlarged gear only doubles in weight point your GM towards the equipment section of the rulebook where it says:
1. Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much.
So doubling your carrying capacity is just perfect, you can actually carry more weight while enlarged because of the strenght increase.
Or invest heavily in extradimensional space.
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Frankly, I've always found this weird. If you look at normal large armor, it only weighs twice as much as medium armor. Also, enlarge person says the creatures weight increases by a factor of 8, not his equipment.
As a DM, this is how I work it. increase the targets non-equipped state by the factor of 8, then increase all his equipment by x2 to get his modified weight. This is the only way in my mind that everything works out in the end. Otherwise, min-maxing becomes your only option. YMMV though.
Also, Ninjaed!
my fall back position is to get a Heavyload belt so I do have options but I think it is kind of silly that I need to.
The weight of your equipment should not be 496. The spell says that your own weight is multiplied by 8, which is appropriate for a creature going from medium to large, but the weight of equipment doesn't work that way.
This column gives the weight of the armor sized for a Medium wearer. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor for Large characters weighs twice as much.
That means it all should be 124 lb.
This makes at least some sense, because a creature is full with organs, blood, and other pleasant stuff. A suit of armor, while being made of metal that is denser than flesh, is still fairly hollow. And most weapons are some form of stick that is either sharpened or has some other bit at the end. Again, not anywhere as much volume as a creature.
So unless the enlarge spell just places some bizarre, arbitrary extra weight that doesn't line up with all the other equipment rules...you should be fine.
EDIT: whoops- took too long looking up info....ninja'd.
Correct
thanks sleet storm I will try to sell that to her. The problem is the spell itself says:
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Since the spell says it causes your weight to multiply by 8 that was what she ruled. Getting her to change her mine without an official paizo source is going to be hard
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Your character weight is multiplied x8, not your gear weight.
The gear follow the rules for the gear.
Weight: This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. Some weapons have a special weight. See the weapon's description for details.
Weight: This column gives the weight of the armor sized for a Medium wearer. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor for Large characters weighs twice as much.
I haven't found rules for the other gear, but I think it follow the same trend, i.e. it double in weight only, it weight isn't multiplied x8.
Think about it in real life. If you double your height, width and thickness your weight is multiples x8, but the surface of your body is multiplied x4. You don't need and don't want to wear a double thickness jacket, a normal thickness jacket keep you as warm as a normal sized person.
This is all very official there are tables and rules for both.
If a creature grows a size category it increases its weight by a factor of 8.
Look here for a table of creature size and weight.
The spell says you multiply your weight by 8 because that is what happens when a creautere grows a size category.
If gear grows a size category(gets similarly enlarged) its weight increases by a factor of 2.
Enlarge person says that the weight of the creature is multiplied by 8. It doesn't say anything about gear. So, you should use the standard rule that gear doubles in weight when it is increased by one size category. That would make your gear come in at 126, or well within light load for a large creature with 19STR.
By the way, your GM is kind of a jerk. Did they really believe that enlarge person spell was meant to do that? No possible way they actually believed that was the intent of the spell. Has no one ever used that spell in your games before? Particularly an NPC? If that is how it was going to work why wouldn't someone warn you (like anyone with knowledge:arcana in your group).
We are fairly new to dungeons and dragons and no I was the first person to try to use this spell. We had some trouble in an earlier game with our wizard not reading her spells completely. Because of this our DM is going over our spells, when we cast them, with a fine tooth comb and if she sees anything wrong with what we are doing she makes the spell go wrong is some bad way. She is not really "a jerk" she is just trying to keep us from abusing our spells.
We are fairly new to dungeons and dragons and no I was the first person to try to use this spell. We had some trouble in an earlier game with our wizard not reading her spells completely. Because of this our DM is going over our spells, when we cast them, with a fine tooth comb and if she sees anything wrong with what we are doing she makes the spell go wrong is some bad way. She is not really "a jerk" she is just trying to keep us from abusing our spells.
Well, I wish you all the best. With a group of new players (DM included) it doesn't sit well with me to punish players by making "the spell go wrong in some bad way." I fear that will lead to an adversarial relationship between DM and players which is universally a bad thing for groups.
We are fairly new to dungeons and dragons and no I was the first person to try to use this spell. We had some trouble in an earlier game with our wizard not reading her spells completely. Because of this our DM is going over our spells, when we cast them, with a fine tooth comb and if she sees anything wrong with what we are doing she makes the spell go wrong is some bad way. She is not really "a jerk" she is just trying to keep us from abusing our spells.
remember the GM is just as much a player as the group, and is on the same side(if everyone dies the current campaign and work all die too). you should get this across that the GM should be helping people use their spells right, not punishing them for using them wrong.
Enlarge person was made under the intent that equipment doubles as normal, however, there are cases when your personal weight could be a problem, such as walking on wooden suspension bridge or walking on a frozen lake, or a wizard trying to lift you with a spell.
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There's no way to read the spell description and actually believe gear weight is multiplied by 8!
"This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8." if you have no experience, it is fairly easy to read that as "your and your gear weights are multiplied by 8". Especially if you are reading the spell description in the middle of a game.
@sageann: a friendly suggestion to your GM: she should assume that a spell will do something positive for the caster. It can have drawbacks, but when used in the right way the advantages should overcome the disadvantages.
Have fun in your games and don't be put off by some of our comments, we are jaded and used to some obnoxious poster (and sometime we are obnoxious poster).
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Enlarge Person also does not give nearly all the benefits of being large (+8 Strength, +4 Constitution, +10' Base Movement, +2 Natural Armor). If it (and other effects that cause size increase to large) did, then multiplying weight of items by 8 makes sense. Since they don't, the rules state that large-sized items only weigh twice as much.
Right, that part of the question. The transmutations spells are powerful and were abused heavily in earlier editions, so they were toned down a bit and made more streamlined. I strongly suggest to your GM, you and the wizard player to read the relevant section in the magic chapter of the rules, here: polymorph.
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We did not know about the doubled carrying capacity at the time but I have found out about it since. However doubling the carrying capacity is not coming anywhere close to compensating for your gear's weight multiplying by 8. As it stands this spell is better for attacking a fighter then it is for buffing him.
Couple of things...
1) Going from say medium sized to large size only doubles the weight of armor and weapons (and other equipment).2) The spell says
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8.
So it's the creature's weight (not it's gear) that increases x8.
So if the fighter weighed 200 pounds it would increase to 1,600 pounds. Full Plate armor would increase from 50 pounds to 100 pounds.
Large gear only weight 2 times more than Medium one, 8 times weight increase aply only to humanoid creature
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thanks sleet storm I will try to sell that to her. The problem is the spell itself says:
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.Since the spell says it causes your weight to multiply by 8 that was what she ruled. Getting her to change her mine without an official paizo source is going to be hard
Thrown weapons will not deal their normal damage. You will have extra strength when throwing them and they retain that force when they leave your hand, just not the extra size. So it will still be a medium weapon when it strikes an opponent and you get an extra point of damage for being stronger when throwing it.
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In the magic section I cited above, under Polymorph it say:
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
The resized equipment that match your new size it the equipment listed in the CRB as that appropriate for your new size, not your equipment dimensions multiplied by 2 in all direction.
If your armor has a thickness of 1/10 of a inch, it don't become 2/10 of a inch, its thickness remain the same. If the armor thickness was increased the AC bonus would similarly increase. Your 4' long sword don't become a 8' long sword that add his length to your already increased reach, for a total reach of 15' or more.
If the GM multiply your gear weight by x8 he should apply all the other effect of that. Increased reach, increased protection, increased hp for the items and so on.
Since the spell says it causes your weight to multiply by 8 that was what she ruled. Getting her to change her mine without an official paizo source is going to be hard
Why would the spell even exist then? Except in a few very specific cases, if it worked as your GM said the spell would not be a usable buff. The weight of your gear would encumber you and prevent you moving. That's not the intention of the spell, it's supposed to buff you and make you stronger.
With the spell as your GM is running it, it's better if you try to use it offensively so as to encumber your enemy under the weight of their clothing.
Which doesn't make any damn sense!
We are fairly new to dungeons and dragons and no I was the first person to try to use this spell. We had some trouble in an earlier game with our wizard not reading her spells completely. Because of this our DM is going over our spells, when we cast them, with a fine tooth comb and if she sees anything wrong with what we are doing she makes the spell go wrong is some bad way. She is not really "a jerk" she is just trying to keep us from abusing our spells.
I see. That seems to come from inexperience and will to enforce rules rather than malicious intent.
To the OP: Suggest to your GM that she should assume that spells are intended to work in beneficial ways by default and aren't built to be "gotchas" by the publishers. If it's a buff spell, it can be expected to buff the target, not cause hardship if used in as simple a way as it can be used. Really convoluted player rationalizations and half-baked schemes are when she should consider spells going wrong in bad ways, not simple uses for which the spell seems to be intended. And, clearly, gaining a relatively minor melee buff is exactly what the enlarge spell is intended to do.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.
This would also make me assume to use the 8x multiplier for weight, since no other is given. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily right...
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.This would also make me assume to use the 8x multiplier for weight, since no other is given. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily right...
I think that's a good argument for why it's not unreasonable to make that judgment initially. But once a recalculation of the encumbrance leads to trouble, the default assumption that the spell is supposed to be beneficial in normal use should guide the GM's decisions. The spell-caused change in encumbrance is not supposed to make the spell act like a weapon against the recipient it is supposed to buff.
Hopefully it was just used for comedic effect - we didn't hear TPK from the OP...
I would say for many/most characters that are likely to use enlarge person the +2 to strength and the double carrying capacity will be enough to usually ensure you are only roughly the same encumbrance.
Clothing for an adult are not necessarily twice as thick as clothes for a child. Similarly for other gear. I don't think a shield or armor or helmet would necessarily be twice as thick. So I don't know exactly what the weight increase for gear would be. I think the actual calculation for most gear would be horribly complex.
Weapons are a bit more difficult. A long sword which is a medium weapon for a medium sized character will be similarly sized for the character when enlarged. So it will be a large long sword. I do not know that a large long sword is x2 in every dimension when compared to a medium long sword. I don't ever remember seeing a table like that.
Rather than trying to work out the new weight of every single item that the player is carrying, I would just assume the PC has approximately the same encumbrance that he had before being enlarged.
I'd argue that if a GM was making my armor heavier, it should give me a stronger bonus. But that's me.
Yes but that error, most assuredly violates rule 0 of the game!All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.This would also make me assume to use the 8x multiplier for weight, since no other is given. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily right...
Isn't rule 0 that the GM is always right?