You have to burn a spell to recharge ONE SINGLE CHARGE... and no, there's nothing that would allow a spellcaster to recharge a staff faster, such as a feat or class ability that allow him or her to use a spell to recharge a number of charges equal to that spell's level.
Why has it become so hard to recharge a staff?
I think that Staff Magi can refill staves with their Arcane Pools.
No idea. This is the one change that doesn't make any sense to me and which does nothing to solve the actual problems staves have with power level. It just makes a lot of them not worth using.
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This isn't hard. This is easy, but time consuming. Before this, if I remember correctly, you couldn't recharge your staves at all.
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Staff of Fire: A week-and-a-half of game downtime gets me five fireballs or three walls of fire, or ten burning hands - all above and beyond my daily spell slots. I don't see the problem here. It's a limited resource, sure, but it's a renewable one.
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Staff of Fire: A week-and-a-half of game downtime gets me five fireballs or three walls of fire, or ten burning hands - all above and beyond my daily spell slots. I don't see the problem here. It's a limited resource, sure, but it's a renewable one.
Indeed, if it were easier to recharge the staff you would create a situation in which spell caster could consistently have more spells available then what they should. That should not be the case. They're an alternative to scrolls which use your caster level and ability to cast rather than the minimum. It allows you to pump out some extra power once in a while to overcome challenges. It is not intended to allow you to cast 10 extra spell levels worth of spells everyday.
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You have to burn a spell to recharge ONE SINGLE CHARGE... and no, there's nothing that would allow a spellcaster to recharge a staff faster, such as a feat or class ability that allow him or her to use a spell to recharge a number of charges equal to that spell's level.
Why has it become so hard to recharge a staff?
You mean as compared to previous editions which didn't let you recharge them? Oh my yes, it's been made so much more difficult than "literally impossible".
That's a good point, Seebs. Not every game moves at the same pace, after all. Some are day-by-day adventures.
Hmm...how about using the rechargeable staffs as Amulets of Magecraft: allowing the spellcaster to use any ready memorized spell to cast (from the staff) a spell of the same school...? The staff then becomes a precision tool.
Staff of Fire: use up any memorized spell of the evocation school to cast a fire spell from the staff of equal level or lower [burning hands, fireball, wall of fire]
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As others have stated, it depends on the pace of the campaign.
Even for an "adventure every day" group, a staff may be worthwhile, unless the spellcasters blow all of their spell slots every day. Considering how expensive staffs are, the staff's highest spell level is probably at least one or two spell levels less than the highest spell level they can cast. If the caster is efficient, they will likely have a couple spell slots "unused;" possibly of sufficient level to replace a charge in their staff.
Basically, a staff is designed to be something a caster uses on occasion to fill in or augment their native casting ability, not as something that's used in every fight to amp their power "up to 11."
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Keep in mind that some of the staves have a material component cost. For example, the Staff of Life's Raise Dead. So, since you don't have to supply the material component to recharge the staff, you wind up saving money ... if you are prone to untimely deaths ... That baby pays for itself after only 22 uses.... </sales pitch>
Keep in mind that some of the staves have a material component cost. For example, the Staff of Life's Raise Dead. So, since you don't have to supply the material component to recharge the staff, you wind up saving money ... if you are prone to untimely deaths ... That baby pays for itself after only 22 uses.... </sales pitch>
The problem with that comes from how many charges it has. If it had more than ten, this would be really, really useful. At 10? The staff is lucky if anyone in my group doesn't just sell it. Typically, they can carry far more scrolls with similar spells on them for the same weight as the staff, and end up with far more capacity to use the spell. And by the time the staves really start coming around, money is no longer an issue, so saving money isn't enough of a reason to bother with a staff.
The recharging? That uses the highest-level slot... which is fine if your spellcaster is doing absolutely nothing else. If they're making magic items, they often have better uses for those spell slots than to recharge a staff.
If the charges were far greater, then the issue wouldn't be a problem. Sure, it would take forever to recharge one... but at the same time, it would be worth it to make that effort.
I like that staffs are rechargeable. Of cause some one is gonna complain that they dont give enough extra power to the poor spell casters. But in that i disagree.
Even if you play with 20+encounters between a few days off recharging a staff when you are on duty can give more options.
Remember that you can recharge it through casting low level spells into it. It is VERY simple to recharge them now, enough so that you can assume to start with a full staff every adventure.
Remember that you can recharge it through casting low level spells into it. It is VERY simple to recharge them now, enough so that you can assume to start with a full staff every adventure.
You Can?
In my book it says"Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day, and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day."
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Huh, okay. That STILL qualifies as VERY SIMPLE.
Not if you do it during downtime.
So don't use staffs. See... most of the time you want the highest-level spells of the staff. In general, that costs you somewhere around what it would cost you to cast the spell itself, only you have to make the decision at prep time. Thus, it's roughly going to be a net loss for you. The point of using a staff is that it's a way of EXPANDING your available spell slots per day, cast at your caster level and save DC, in return for some lesser flexibility. A staff isn't a wand, so don't judge it by those standards.
It's pretty funny how Sorcs got screwed out of efficient staff use, because they need to dedicate a spells-known slot to a spell on the staff to recharge it.
But on the other hand givingup a Spell slot to recharge is most likely not so hard on the sorcerer. And if it is a good staff chances are that he already have more than one of the spells on his list. And if it is a costum staff just ad one of your level 1 spells for 5 charges that is almost free.
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It's pretty funny how Sorcs got screwed out of efficient staff use, because they need to dedicate a spells-known slot to a spell on the staff to recharge it.But on the other hand givingup a Spell slot to recharge is most likely not so hard on the sorcerer. And if it is a good staff chances are that he already have more than one of the spells on his list. And if it is a costum staff just ad one of your level 1 spells for 5 charges that is almost free.
Or, to be more amusing, get a Page of Spell Knowledge for a 1st level spell that matches one of the staff spells, and you haven't even lost a spell slot, just a small amount of money.
To charge a staff, you must use a slot equal to the highest-level spell on the staff.
To charge a staff, you must use a slot equal to the highest-level spell on the staff.
yes but the Spell known for the sorcerer dosent need to be the highest. In case you were joining that conversation:)
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The best use of a staff isn't to use it everyday like you would a wand.
Rather the staff is useful for the spells it has that you Don't necessarily cast all the time but want to have handy.
While it is true I still probably wouldn't buy one, I wouldn't automatically sell them now like I used to do in previous editions.
Need lesser restoration? No longer do you need the cleric to waste a spell slot on it everyday *just in case*. Cure blind/deaf and disease are also on the staff (as is a cure spell, which I wouldn't use except for emergencies).
If you are using the spells from the staff everyday this is an indication that you need to start memorizing those spells- not that the staves are somehow flawed.
-S
I'm quite amused by all the people defending the status quo... who don't actually know the status quo. Lets cover the important points real quick.
1. Recharging a staff must be done in the morning, when you prepare spells. The slot used is unavailable for the rest of the day. You cannot simply dump an unused spell slot into a staff at the end of the day at no cost.
2. You use a spell slot of the highest level available within the staff to recharge it, and said slot charges only a single charge.
3. You cannot recharge more than a single charge per day.
4. You cannot recharge more than a single staff each day.
5. You must know at least one spell that is stored within the staff.
There are a few obvious takeaways from these restrictions.
1. Staves that contain primarily spells of the same level are likely to be a better investment than those with wildly varying levels. Using a 6th level spell slot to recharge the 1st level sleep spell you used on your staff of enchantment is an awfully raw deal.
2. Staves that focus on lower level spells are probably easier to recharge - and thus more likely to see consistent use - than staves that contain higher level spell slots you may need.
3. Staves are much more useful in campaigns that involve short periods of activity followed by relatively long stretches of leisure.
Keeping these limitations - and the extremely high cost of any given staff - in mind, I don't think it's a surprise that some people feel they are a bit overly restrictive or limited. Campaigns that take a slower pace between adventures or between each adventuring day are tend to find staves more valuable, but those tend to see consistent action over long stretches of time are likely to rapidly reduce a given staff to a phenomenally expensive paperweight. In addition, the stave you find can dramatically alter your perception.
My personal experience has been they are not particularly useful. An array of scrolls and a couple wands seem to go a lot further for the same price - but my campaign also tends to move at a much faster pace than others. A week of downtime is a huge amount in my experience, and recharging a given staff is a chore. I also, in some ways, lament the passing of the old expendable staves. I could drop a spell I might not use ever day, but would likely use many times in short order if I did need it - into a staff and mark that off my preparation list.
Selgard: No, not really... That is what you use scrolls and potions for. A staff is for high-level spells that you want to be able to cast several times in specific situations, and do so with your own casting ability. Wands have a window of a few levels of use, but after that they are mostly useful as distraction (fireball, for example). That is when you need to consider starting to use staves. Note also that using a staff doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
I'm quite amused by all the people defending the status quo... who don't actually know the status quo. Lets cover the important points real quick.
1. Recharging a staff must be done in the morning, when you prepare spells. The slot used is unavailable for the rest of the day. You cannot simply dump an unused spell slot into a staff at the end of the day at no cost.
2. You use a spell slot of the highest level available within the staff to recharge it, and said slot charges only a single charge.
3. You cannot recharge more than a single charge per day.
4. You cannot recharge more than a single staff each day.
5. You must know at least one spell that is stored within the staff.There are a few obvious takeaways from these restrictions.
1. Staves that contain primarily spells of the same level are likely to be a better investment than those with wildly varying levels. Using a 6th level spell slot to recharge the 1st level sleep spell you used on your staff of enchantment is an awfully raw deal.
2. Staves that focus on lower level spells are probably easier to recharge - and thus more likely to see consistent use - than staves that contain higher level spell slots you may need.
3. Staves are much more useful in campaigns that involve short periods of activity followed by relatively long stretches of leisure.Keeping these limitations - and the extremely high cost of any given staff - in mind, I don't think it's a surprise that some people feel they are a bit overly restrictive or limited. Campaigns that take a slower pace between adventures or between each adventuring day are tend to find staves more valuable, but those tend to see consistent action over long stretches of time are likely to rapidly reduce a given staff to a phenomenally expensive paperweight. In addition, the stave you find can dramatically alter your perception.
Finally, someone who understands my point.
Where are the options to do as follow:
- "I burn a 5th-level spell; I recharge my staff by 5 charges."
- "I burn 2 5th-level spells; I recharge my staff by 10 charges."
- "I burn 2 5th-level spells; I recharge 2 staves by 5 charges each."
- "I can craft a staff that recharges itself by 1 or 2 charges per day."
Yes, 3.5E staves couldn't be recharged... but they had 50 charges. You know that 3rd-level spell you had in it? You could use it 16 times. In PF, only 3 times...
Yeah, practical...
I, personally, can't get behind a campaign that has no downtime, as it just blows all realism out of the water. I can't imagine, even the hardiest group of heroes, running at a full pace for day in and day out for two years.
The other issue with this is that it doesn't make sense based on experience gain from every day adventuring. If you are in full adventure mode every day from the beginning of adulthood at 17, you'd be at 20th level - a lifetime master of your trade - by age 20. Doesn't pass muster in my mind. Based on some sort of XP by Age fictitious table in my cloudy head, I'd think an adventurers life would be on the order of 66-80% downtime.
66-80% downtime means 20-34% uptime. If 100% means you get to 20 within three years, let's say 1000 days, 34% uptime means 3000 days or nine-ish years, so level 20 at 26. 20% means 5000 days, fifteen-ish years, or 20 at 32. Mayyyybe.
Hey, I did say it was a fictitious table in my cloudy head. The point was, that zero downtime simply never makes sense. Even soldiers in the middle of a war end up with downtime for logistics, recovery from wounds, training, of just simply mental rest. A well run campaign would have plenty of time to keep some staves charged.
Did you read my response to what you quoted, or did you ignore it for some extra snark, LazarX?
Hey, I did say it was a fictitious table in my cloudy head. The point was, that zero downtime simply never makes sense. Even soldiers in the middle of a war end up with downtime for logistics, recovery from wounds, training, of just simply mental rest. A well run campaign would have plenty of time to keep some staves charged.
If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.
If you're trying to stop something involving constantly-raised zombies... there is no downtime. Sleep becomes a luxury in this scenario.
If you're on a plane that is hostile to you? There is no downtime.
Middle of exploring some mostly-empty land? There is no downtime, and if you're far enough out, there won't be for weeks.
There are numerous scenarios within Pathfinder where downtime is not only nonexistent, but outright impossible. When dealing with something like that, the typical staff is utterly worthless; it has too few charges to really get anything done and it takes a week and a half to recharge. It's also expensive and heavy.
And that's ultimately the problem. In order to make staves viable, I have to not run a rather startling number of campaign scenarios. The old non-rechargeable ones may have been disposable, but they at least had enough charges to last in one of those campaigns. The current ones? You pretty much have to never use them in order to make them last.
And even when there is downtime, your magic users could instead use that spell slot to craft other magic items they don't have to recharge which act constantly.
Not quite. A staff takes up the weapon slot as a quarterstaff. At some point, you learn to do without weapons as at least a wizard. Staves gives you some use of the weapons slot.
Hey, I did say it was a fictitious table in my cloudy head. The point was, that zero downtime simply never makes sense. Even soldiers in the middle of a war end up with downtime for logistics, recovery from wounds, training, of just simply mental rest. A well run campaign would have plenty of time to keep some staves charged.If you're in an epic campaign to stop the army that is currently marching towards the lands you are trying to save, there is no such thing as downtime. Every hour you waste, the army gets closer to attacking.
If you're trying to stop something involving constantly-raised zombies... there is no downtime. Sleep becomes a luxury in this scenario.
If you're on a plane that is hostile to you? There is no downtime.
Middle of exploring some mostly-empty land? There is no downtime, and if you're far enough out, there won't be for weeks.
There are numerous scenarios within Pathfinder where downtime is not only nonexistent, but outright impossible. When dealing with something like that, the typical staff is utterly worthless; it has too few charges to really get anything done and it takes a week and a half to recharge. It's also expensive and heavy.
And that's ultimately the problem. In order to make staves viable, I have to not run a rather startling number of campaign scenarios. The old non-rechargeable ones may have been disposable, but they at least had enough charges to last in one of those campaigns. The current ones? You pretty much have to never use them in order to make them last.
And even when there is downtime, your magic users could instead use that spell slot to craft other magic items they don't have to recharge which act constantly.
I of course understand that there will be adventures that do not have any significant downtime. In which case, I also find it hard to believe that over that long drawn out adventure, there are no days where the wizard hasn't burnt through all his spells. I, however, am talking about over the life of a character in a full campaign, because that, I feel, is what needs to be looked at when determining the cost effectiveness of the stave purchase/craft.
Here's something I was wondering: Can a spellcaster cast a spell from a staff that isn't on her class's spell list? Staves are spell-trigger items, and here's the rules for using spell-trigger items:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Consider a staff that contains two spells: Protection from Evil and Heal. A sorcerer who knows Protection from Evil picks the staff up. Because the sorcerer knows Protection from Evil she can cast it from the staff. So since she can use the staff, per the spell trigger usage rules, can she also cast the stave's Heal spell? The spell trigger guidelines don't seem to consider that a spell trigger item could contain more than one spell, only that you need to be able to cast the spell to use the item.
I of course understand that there will be adventures that do not have any significant downtime. In which case, I also find it hard to believe that over that long drawn out adventure, there are no days where the wizard hasn't burnt through all his spells.
Staves can only be recharged in the morning. Said wizard needs to burn the spell slot prior to knowing if he'll need it during the day. When eating dinner, it's too late to charge the staff back up...unused spells or not.