I've been thinking about it and can barely find any reason.
The exact wording is: "At 12th level, a monk of the four winds can use his ki to slow time or quicken his movements, depending on the observer. As a swift action, the monk can expend 6 ki points to gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one. The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action. The monk cannot use these actions to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and cannot combine them to take full-attack actions. Any move actions the monk makes this turn do not provoke attacks of opportunity. "
-If I want it for attacks or combat maneuvers that are attack actions, I'm far better off using flurry of blows with a Ki point. Gives me more attacks with a better bonus.
-If I want to move fast, I can move just as fast by running.
-I can't use supernatural abilities so I can't use Efreeti Touch three times.
-I can't use standard actions like normal so I can't grapple the opponent and pin him down in one turn.
-As a monk I don't have any extraordinary abilities to use as a stndard action.
-I can think of very few scenarios where I'd need to use a skill several times in one round, even fewer with the monk skillset.
What is this ability actually good for?
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well, it depends on how your built...
you could potentially:
move up to someone [move]
single attack with power attack [1st standard]
- free trip from felling smash
- free attack from greater trip
- free attack (vs. prone) from vicious strike
- apply stunning fist
repeat vs. other opponents, or vital strike (vs. prone, stunned) x2 [2nd and 3rd standard]
or, if you're in a mythic campaign you could just use mythic power attack, and mythic vital strike three times to dish out some serious damage...
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Charging trip (binding throw), free grapple check (1st standard action).
Pin (second standard)
Tie Up (third standard)
Leave BBEG wizard for fighter with scythe/wizard with DD friends (free action).
Or
Bullrush times three, aka, "Do you really think I can't push you into that lava pit waaaay over there?"
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A standard 12th level monk could take a 5' step and flurry, getting an attack routine of +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (with perhaps 1 more +10 if he spends ki).
A monk of the four winds using Slow Time could take a 5' step and attack three times at +9. Not a good trade, eh? BUT, the Mot4W can use VITAL STRIKE with all three of those attacks if he so wishes.
So that standard monk will have five or six attacks, only the first two or three of which will be at a higher attack bonus (and then by just 1 point), while the third and fourth attacks are 4 points less and the fifth attack is NINE points less. Each attack will do 2d6 damage, plus any Strength modifiers or magic.
The Mot4W will have three attacks at +9 each, dealing a base 2d6 damage, plus an additional 2d6 damage from Vital Strike, plus any Strength modifiers or magic. If he has to spend ki, then rather than an extra attack, he can get a +4 dodge bonus to AC for that round.
MA
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You can't Flurry if you're more than five feet away. Master Arminas's Vital Strike plan is a good idea too... I'm playing a Drunken Master/MotFW right now so this'll be a good thing to keep in mind.
As a note, the Slow Time ability restricts spells and spell-like abilities, not supernatural abilities which are different. So you can still use Efreeti Touch, Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, etc.
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Standard 1: Grapple
Standard 2: Pin
Standard 3: Tie-Up
Suck it, whoever I just f#%+ed over!
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Standard 1: Grapple
Standard 2: Pin
Standard 3: Tie-Up
Suck it, whoever I just f$+$ed over!
I'm playing a Mot4W in Legacy of Fire and I did just this. After I succeeded, I shouted, "TIME!" Like he was at a rodeo or something.
Some other things to keep in mind is that the Monk can make multiple move actions to navigate through the enemy without provoking and then attacking the BBEG behind them. So he could do something like move twice, and then perform two Vital Strike Sunder attacks on the enemy cleric's Holy symbol.
Or you could do something like make 3 cleave/great cleave attacks in a row, potentially getting an obscene number of attacks.
Besides, Slow Time is a just a super cool ability.
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Wait Sensei stacks with monk of the four winds? That's... ridiculously amazing.
The character I mentioned earlier is actually a MotFW/Drunken Master/Sensei/Qinggong. It all stacks, and you have Slow Fall and High Jump left over for ki powers.
So you get a lot of cool things to spend ki on and a strong method of replenishing it.
Also you get to see the look on people's faces when you show then your quadruple-archetyped character.
Another thing you can do with Slow Time is to move 70' or 60' (depending on your race) with one standard action and then get two standard attacks at +9 (both with Vital Strike, mind you).
As a standard monk, you can move 70' or 60' (see above) and only get ONE attack at +9 (which you could also add Vital Strike to, but standard monks don't have a lot of extra to add Vital Strike when it doesn't work on Flurry of Blows!).
It's a poor man's pounce, but hey, it is one of the few ways to move and then attack twice as a monk.
MA
Another thing you can do with Slow Time is to move 70' or 60' (depending on your race) with one standard action and then get two standard attacks at +9 (both with Vital Strike, mind you).
As a standard monk, you can move 70' or 60' (see above) and only get ONE attack at +9 (which you could also add Vital Strike to, but standard monks don't have a lot of extra to add Vital Strike when it doesn't work on Flurry of Blows!).
It's a poor man's pounce, but hey, it is one of the few ways to move and then attack twice as a monk.
MA
Funnily enough, one of the other methods of getting pounce as Monk is also a Monk of the Four Winds ability via Aspect of the Tiger at 17th level.
Honestly, I just really love this archetype. It's not particularly powerful, but it comes with some cool abilities.
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Yeah, but I will say that the ki COST for Slow Time is simply outrageous . . . SIX points!!! At 12th level, you have a total of 6 + Wisdom modifier.
Three or even four would have been reasonable (since the cost of the HIGHEST ki power the core monk has [Empty Body, equal to a 7th level spell] is three); two would have made it too good. But SIX?
God in heaven, it costs.
MA
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Am I mistaken, or does the monk actually get 3 Standard actions AND a move action (with no provocation of AoO's no matter where they move to)? Seems like you NORMALLY get 1 Standard and 1 Move in a round. SO if this is just replacing the 1 Standard, you still get the other Move. So you COULD take 4x move actions (since standards can be converted to moves). Or 2 move, 2 standard (move, attack, move attack). Or 3 move (attack anywhere along the way), 1 standard, or 1 move, 3 standard(attack 3x then move, or vice versa)...
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Am I mistaken, or does the monk actually get 3 Standard actions AND a move action (with no provocation of AoO's no matter where they move to)? Seems like you NORMALLY get 1 Standard and 1 Move in a round. SO if this is just replacing the 1 Standard, you still get the other Move. So you COULD take 4x move actions (since standards can be converted to moves).
Damn. It can be read that way, and I have never seen it until now. Perhaps we need to make a thread asking to FAQ that question.
MA
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Am I mistaken, or does the monk actually get 3 Standard actions AND a move action (with no provocation of AoO's no matter where they move to)? Seems like you NORMALLY get 1 Standard and 1 Move in a round. SO if this is just replacing the 1 Standard, you still get the other Move. So you COULD take 4x move actions (since standards can be converted to moves).Damn. It can be read that way, and I have never seen it until now. Perhaps we need to make a thread asking to FAQ that question.
MA
Not sure it really needs clarification. You gain three standard actions instead of just one. So you now have 1 move, 1 swift/immediate, and 3x standard actions.
So he can move his normal speed, and then make 3 vital strikes, or grapple/pin/tie up, or disarm/trip/grapple etc.
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Am I mistaken, or does the monk actually get 3 Standard actions AND a move action (with no provocation of AoO's no matter where they move to)? Seems like you NORMALLY get 1 Standard and 1 Move in a round. SO if this is just replacing the 1 Standard, you still get the other Move. So you COULD take 4x move actions (since standards can be converted to moves).Damn. It can be read that way, and I have never seen it until now. Perhaps we need to make a thread asking to FAQ that question.
MA
Not sure it really needs clarification. You gain three standard actions instead of just one. So you now have 1 move, 1 swift/immediate, and 3x standard actions.
So he can move his normal speed, and then make 3 vital strikes, or grapple/pin/tie up, or disarm/trip/grapple etc.
Well, technically you spent the swift to use this ability...
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The Monk definitely still gets her usual move action on top of the standard actions. If she couldn't, the ability would be listed as taking a full-round action (like ki strike is a swift action).
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Nothing in it says you give up your move action, it says you use a swift action to gain 3 standard actions instead of one. I don't see any need for a FAQ on the subject.
Now the questionable part would be that, while it says you can't combine those standard actions to take a full attack, it doesn't say you can't use the move + 1 Standard to full attack and then have two standards remaining. This is probably not what is intended, but it seems fairly reasonable given the very high ki point cost.
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I'm not really sure why the monk wouldn't be able to make a normal full-attack action (giving up a standard and their move). Really, as a swift action, nothing is preventing them from using the ability after they've already taken a full-attack action. I suppose enforcing the no full-attack after they've used Slow Time keeps them from gaining a pseudo-pounce once or twice a day, but its not something I'd bother with.
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Nothing in full round actions say you need a swift action.... but one might say that since the feat specifically says you can't combine the three to make a full attack action, that this counts for combining any of the three with anything else for a full attack action (ie. not one, two, nor three of the three can be combined to make a full attack attack with anything (the last move action, converting one of them to a move action, etc...). However, other full round actions might be valid, just not full attack actions.
So Charge, Deliver coup de grace, Escape from a net, Extinguish flames, Light a torch, Load a heavy or repeating crossbow, Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet are all viable combos (and you could do 2 of them in total)... but a full attack is not.
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Combine Monk of the Four Winds with Drunken Hero and it can actually be decent if you give them just a few things: feat Deep Drinker, Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor (24k), Hand of Glory (8k), and three Rings of Ki Mastery (10k each, one on each hand and one on the hand of glory). This is expensive, at a total market cost of 62k, but can be afforded by 10th level if the character focuses exclusively on this build (probably not a good idea, IMO, unless your DM favors the +3 standard action option, below). The monk must prepare by storing 2 Ki in each ring, but after this using Slow Time only requires 3 points of Ki (instead of 6).
First cycle (after using slow time to gain 3 standard actions): Drink (a standard action) twice to regain 4 Ki and use a move action to execute the swift action required to use slow time again for 3 Ki. Net gain 1 Ki and 2 or 3 more standard actions (depending on how you read the Slow Time ability, not actually sure here).
Second cycle: Drink to regain 2 more Ki, then (assuming only net gain of 2 standard actions**) any standard action you want for a net gain of 3 Ki, or 5 Ki if you chose to drink again.
**If you assume net gain of 3 standard actions, insert another use of Slow Time, rinse and repeat. This is the broken option, but it could be interpreted this way as the wording "gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one" is not the same as "lose one standard action then gain three", though I could see arguments for both. Regardless, this would be handled in our group as a one-of.
Nevertheless, regaining 3 to 5 Ki in a round can be pretty useful for a monk, especially if they have also mixed in the Qiggong archetype, seeing as they would have been restricted to only regaining 2 Ki and being stuck with a move action if they only had the Drunken Master archetype (the only archetype that can efficiently "restock" their Ki points throughout the day).
Note that while Slow Time is a supernatural ability it's use is not restricted by it's own wording (as it is a swift action which can be executed as a move action under that clause, and Supernatural abilities are not otherwise mentioned within the restrictions of this ability)
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[...] and use a move action to execute the swift action required to use slow time again for 3 Ki.
The only action-trading described in the Pathfinder rules is being able to take a move action in place of a standard action. Typically you're only allowed a single swift action per round, even if you have a move or standard action you're not intending to otherwise use.
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well, it depends on how your built...
you could potentially:
move up to someone [move]
single attack with power attack [1st standard]
- free trip from felling smash
- free attack from greater trip
- free attack (vs. prone) from vicious strike
- apply stunning fist
repeat vs. other opponents, or vital strike (vs. prone, stunned) x2 [2nd and 3rd standard]or, if you're in a mythic campaign you could just use mythic power attack, and mythic vital strike three times to dish out some serious damage...
For anyone looking for uses of Slow Time, this whole concept falls to pieces the moment you try to use Felling Smash, it is not "Free" as mentioned, it requires a swift action, which you've already used this round to activate Slow Time. So far the only viable reason I've seen to use Slow Time is as an expensive Monk's pounce, or to quickly maneuver through a deadly combat without provoking. Only the second option is something I would really consider being worth the 6 Ki cost. Even then I'd rather be able to abundant step across the battlefield and have a normal standard action that I can use for Grapple than 3 non-standard attack actions!
Since Grapple is a Standard action that doesn't count as an "Attack Action" the Grapple>Pinned>Tied Up line is out. Maybe Combined with a Drunken Master and Temporary Key points you can mitigate the cost making it more useful, but Personally I Prefer some of the later Monk Abilities that you lose to the Drunken Master Archetype.
I Really wish you could just Opt out of this, I think in general I'd rather have abundant step than Slow Time.
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Vital strike, only thing I feel works with this. Lets you make 3 vital strikes in a round.
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Combine with the Maneuver Master archetype which allows you to do two combat maneuvers with one standard action.
You should be able to output 6 combat maneuvers simultaneously.
Add in the Dirty Trick Master feat and you should be able to permaf+~# enemies.
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you don't have a full standard action, only the attack action option of standard action. Thus you can do specific standard action abilities unless they were EX, Then maybe you could get it to work. But the maneuver master lets it do extra maneuvers when you do a full attack.
Hm. Dot.
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Get Throat Slicer and change "tie up" to "coup de grace."
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Something you need to remember is not everything 'must' be combat related. This gives you a max of a whopping 5 move actions in one round (3 standard plus your normal compliment) and if combined with monk speed, it is very useful outside of combat as a utility ability.
I was playing with a friend who had this in a session, and we found ourselves on the other side of an unfriendly crowd (who weren't attacking us just yet) about to execute a crucial NPC. My character failed his diplomacy check, (rolled a 2), and they were about to execute the guy. Our monk slowed time, ran across the crowd (1 move, no AoOs because everyone was flat footed), undid the guillotine (a standard) picked him up (a move) ran back (move) and ran away (move). We totally started singing 'time in a bottle' like from X-men days of future past too. Hilarious!
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Opening and closing doors are move actions. Move through open door, close behind you, move to next door, open door. Next round run for 4x ultra Monk speed over to the next country. MEEP MEEP.
For complete mastery over doors, you somehow multiclass into Sheldmarshal/Grand Marshal so that you can open and close doors as a swift action for the turns you don't Slow Time.
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The Cleave and Vital Strike trees and various combat maneuvers have already been mentioned, but really Slow Time works great with all of the 'standard action' attacks;
Djinni Spin lets you automatically hit all enemies around you with Elemental Fist as a standard action (save for half damage). If surrounded that could be eight targets hit three times for 24 attacks total. Efreeti Touch, Marid Coldsnap, and Shaitan Earthblast allow similar cone/line/burst effects.
At 12th level Startoss Shower would allow three attacks as a standard action... so with three standard actions you could get nine attacks... each at full BAB and +6 to damage, and the first attack of each set could also be combined with Vital Strike.
Also combos like; Scorpion Style + Gorgon's Fist + Disengaging Flourish + Move away
As to multiple archetypes, you really need Drunken Master to be able to use Slow Time repeatedly. Alternatively, Qinggong with the ki leech ability also works, and various vows can greatly increase your ki pool and/or Rings of Ki Mastery can reduce the cost of ki abilities.
With Qinggong you can take Neutralize Poison to wipe out penalties from drinking so much... allowing you to begin drinking and gaining more ki again. Include Sensei and you can share Wholeness of Body with allies within 30' and thus provide effectively unlimited healing between fights. Share Qinggong Whirlwind Attack with allies and they can chop through a small army of followers in a single round. Et cetera.
All or most of those things listed I'm not sure work. You don't have a full standard action to work with. You have a limited standard action. So if something says, "as a standard action you can X" Then there's a good chance it wont work with this.
All or most of those things listed I'm not sure work. You don't have a full standard action to work with. You have a limited standard action. So if something says, "as a standard action you can X" Then there's a good chance it wont work with this.
That's not quite accurate.
Slow Time (Su): At 12th level, a monk of the four winds can use his ki to slow time or quicken his movements, depending on the observer. As a swift action, the monk can expend 6 ki points to gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one. The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action. The monk cannot use these actions to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and cannot combine them to take full-attack actions. Any move actions the monk makes this turn do not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces abundant step.
(Emphasis mine)
The only troublesome restrictions are no spells, spell-like abilities, or full attack actions while using Slow Time. As we are not in the PFS forum, I'll concede that a GM might houserule the ability to tighten (or loosen) the restrictions. The other restrictions might limit maneuvers to trip, sunder, disarm (or any maneuver that can be made in place of a melee attack), unless you have an EX ability to execute combat maneuvers (e.g., be a Maneuver Master). Otherwise, anything that takes a standard action and isn't a spell, spell-like ability, or full attack is probably fine.
Also, regarding the maneuver master...
you don't have a full standard action, only the attack action option of standard action. Thus you can do specific standard action abilities unless they were EX, Then maybe you could get it to work. But the maneuver master lets it do extra maneuvers when you do a full attack.
This is also inaccurate. The restrictions on standard actions during Slow Time were addressed in the first SRD quote in my post here. For the maneuver master, consider the following:
Sweeping Maneuver (Ex): At 11th level, a maneuver master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action, as long as neither maneuver requires the maneuver master to move. He may perform two identical maneuvers against two adjacent enemies, or he may perform two different combat maneuvers against the same target. This ability replaces diamond body.
So, the Maneuver Master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action (it's also an EX ability, so it does not violate other restrictions of Slow Time).
EDIT: grammar and clarification
yes, using that ability you could do grapple. But normally you couldn't do a grapple with these actions.
I concur that, as written, the Slow Time rules do not seem to allow for a grapple combat maneuver (without an ability like grab or the Maneuver Master's Sweeping Maneuver). Unless, maneuvers are considered melee attack actions...which I could see being a possible argument. Most of them are offensive actions taken in melee that require an attack roll...and some other threads have debated it. I'm not saying maneuvers are attacks, just that other people have seen fit to debate it.
Regardless, there are other ways to initiate grapples as part of an attack. Also some ways to pin easily.
attack replacements, trip, disarm and sunder, can be done as the attack action.
Standard action maneuvers, like grapple, are attacks that make attack rolls, but need their own action do perform.
The attack action is what vital strike uses. So if you can do it with a vital strike you can do it with these. thus cleave, being it's own standard action wouldn't qualify under the attack action option. So to cleave you'd need to hope that it qualifies under the extraordinary ability clause, else you can't cleave with these.
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You don't have a full standard action to work with. You have a limited standard action.
Slow Time gives three 'full' standard actions... it just imposes some limits on what you can do with them (e.g. no swapping standard + move for full round actions).
I suppose the scope of those limits could vary significantly based on different interpretations. For example, there are MANY things which appear on neither the 'can do' nor the 'cannot do' list. Personally, I'd then take those lists as examples of the kinds of things allowed / prohibited and adjudicate other similar actions to fit into one list or the other as appropriate. Others might interpret the 'can do' list as the sum total of what is allowed (making the 'cannot do' list vastly incomplete and completely irrelevant).
attack replacements, trip, disarm and sunder, can be done as the attack action.
Standard action maneuvers, like grapple, are attacks that make attack rolls, but need their own action do perform.The attack action is what vital strike uses. So if you can do it with a vital strike you can do it with these. thus cleave, being it's own standard action wouldn't qualify under the attack action option. So to cleave you'd need to hope that it qualifies under the extraordinary ability clause, else you can't cleave with these.
I do agree with your assessment of combat maneuvers, Chess Pwn. I noted that some other people in the forums see the differentiation between the types of maneuvers as debatable in some ways. I don't see much room for debate on that score, unless the GM feels lenient (it almost always comes down to the GM in non-PFS rules questions anyway).
The issue of feats does raise the question of whether feats are generally considered Extraordinary abilities (barring those that mention they produce spell or spell-like effects). Perhaps cleave is an extraordinary ability (as you suggested might be a possible interpretation, Chess Pwn).
EDIT: clarification
You don't have a full standard action to work with. You have a limited standard action.Slow Time gives three 'full' standard actions... it just imposes some limits on what you can do with them (e.g. no swapping standard + move for full round actions).
I suppose the scope of those limits could vary significantly based on different interpretations. For example, there are MANY things which appear on neither the 'can do' nor the 'cannot do' list. Personally, I'd then take those lists as examples of the kinds of things allowed / prohibited and adjudicate other similar actions to fit into one list or the other as appropriate. Others might interpret the 'can do' list as the sum total of what is allowed (making the 'cannot do' list vastly incomplete and completely irrelevant).
I do suppose that if someone thought the list was merely a suggestion that it could be expounded upon.
I personally don't see any room in "can use these actions to do the following: a, b, c, or d" as allowing anything that's not a, b, c, or d. Then to preempt common questions they explicitly noted some disallowed things that players would ask are okay.
If they had added something like, "some options for this action are" or if they had, "can do a standard action except..." then I'd agree that things are okay. What it looks like to me those is a set list for balancing, this way you can grapple, pin, and tie up someone in one round. (yes I know there are ways to do this. But I can see it as something one would restrict to reduce generic power)
Well, when I sneak a character based on Sonic the Hedgehog into my game based on shows 4Kids dubbed, I know what archetype it will be. (Slap Scaled Fist on there to avoid needing a positive Wisdom modifier.)
Nothing in full round actions say you need a swift action.... but one might say that since the feat specifically says you can't combine the three to make a full attack action, that this counts for combining any of the three with anything else for a full attack action
I don't really buy it. You can't combine those actions to make a full attack, but nothing about it even implies it takes away your ability to full attack normally with your standard + move. It just means you can't get a second full attack by combining your other two standard actions.
Moreover, your interpretation brings up some weird questions, like what if you activate the ability after you've already made a full attack?
Well, when I sneak a character based on Sonic the Hedgehog into my game based on shows 4Kids dubbed, I know what archetype it will be. (Slap Scaled Fist on there to avoid needing a positive Wisdom modifier.)
Unfortunately four winds replaces stunning fist, so those two can't be combined.
Should be okay to combine. Scaled Fist modifies ability score, and merely clarifies that interaction with Stunning Fist. Otherwise, Scaled Fist wouldn't combine with anything that that replaced a Wisdom-based ability.
Given the archetype stacking FAQ (anything that even remotely modifies anything makes that unstackable) my interpretation is that the 'otherwise' is correct.
I agree. I have clarification that changing the casting stat or the type of casting (arcane to psychic) is altering the entire "spells" class feature and can't stack with some that say added a spell to the spell list.
And this situation seems quite similar.
*(is it just me or does it seem like they are making more of the archetypes they release unable to combine with other archetypes?)