I'm thinking about running an Azata-Blooded Aasimar Tattooed Sorcerer with a Thrush familiar, the Illuminator trait and Skill Focus: Diplomacy feat, but... my experience with modules is hit and miss. I've heard Season 0-1 was heavily combat-focused, and the recent seasons have moved towards plot, but I'd like to hear your opinion.
If it helps, the rest of my build is looking like:
Draconic bloodline - gold or red or somesuch
Trait: Gifted Adept (Burning Hands)
Varisian Tattoo: Evocation (from Tattooed Sorcerer)
So I'll also have 3d4+3 Burning Hands at level 1.
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Diplomacy isn't a trap but you will rarely need it at insanely high levels.
As a sorcerer skill focus is going to be, mechanically, overkill. You'll be more than good enough if you just max out skill ranks.
That said, it can be a lot of FUN to have insanely high interaction skills. So go for it if you want. As a sorcerer you're powerful enough that you can afford a little inefficiency
It works a little TOO well.
I have a diplomancer sorcer with 1 skill point per level. Between the thrush familiar and the human silver tongued ability he can make most pfs diplomacy checks on a 1.
I have faux rogue druid with a really good perception and good disable device, knowldge nature, knowledge dungeoneering, stealth, and survival skills.
Besides perception, the diplomance has by far made more skill checks.
Season 5 is the year of the diplomat.
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Diplomacy DCs really don't increase on the scale that Acrobatics or Perception DCs do. A hostile 1st level Fighter has the same Diplomacy DC as a hostile 20th level Fighter.
The highest Diplomacy DC I can recall in a 10-11 subtier was something like 34, and maybe something like 32 in another scenario. A 10th level Sorcerer, with max ranks in Diplomacy and no magic items, will probably have around a +20 already. Grab a Circlet of Persuasion, get some party members to aid you, make friends with a Thrush, and you'll be fine.
The trait really only helps PCs that don't have Charisma as a primary stat.
The trait is definitely worth it: +4 to your second most often used skill? Hell yes.
The feat might be a bit much.
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Oh, for some reason I thought Sorcerers had Diplomacy as a class skill.
In that case, definitely take it.
Illuminator would actually net you +5, since it gives you a +2 trait bonus and makes it a class skill.
I was thinking, since Sorcerers already had Diplomacy as a class skill, that the extra +2 wouldn't amount to much.
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Diplomacy is a fantastic tool for gathering information after a briefing and through-out investigative scenarios. I've used it to find peaceful ways to avoid combat (one memorably had a DC of, of 35, I think, to avoid a truly scary opponent). And of course you are in your glory when it comes to skill challenges in RP-based scenarios. You can even spend 5 PP to buy a caravan and use Diplomacy for Day Job checks!
There are very few scenarios where I haven't had to make a Diplomacy check.
That said, I wouldn't bother with Skill Focus: Diplomacy. With the trait, your familiar, and a high charisma, you'll be set.
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I have a sorcerer. Tattooed, with world traveler as a trait (+1 and class skill diplomacy.) She traded out her thrush at 7th level for a Lyrakien, but does have a circlet of persuasion. I found the diplomacy very useful, and getting a 50, with some assists, in an important diplmatic event was very fun.
Oh, for some reason I thought Sorcerers had Diplomacy as a class skill.
In that case, definitely take it.
Illuminator would actually net you +5, since it gives you a +2 trait bonus and makes it a class skill.
I was thinking, since Sorcerers already had Diplomacy as a class skill, that the extra +2 wouldn't amount to much.
Yeah. 3.5 sorcerers were kinda hosed in that their class skills didn't match their ability. For charisma they had bluff and... well that was it.
Sometimes the gather info part of diplomacy is pretty high.
I have a couple of characters that have used diplomacy to get around as many as 3 of 4 encounters in a scenario mostly just with diplomacy. Can almost always talk your way past/around 1 of the 4 encounters.
Twice I have had it not work and the opposition attacked me since I was out front talking.
Three times I was using the diplomacy basically just to stall so the others could get in position and prepared.
Sometimes the group you are with will go all murder-hobo and not give you the chance to talk. That is kinda disappointing. but it probably also means their character is built for combat and will be good at it. (I hope so anyway.)
I would also try to get the bluff fairly high. Sometimes part of the talking is lying about why you're really there.
Invest, sure, but you don't need to go overboard. I tweaked my diplomacy up to somewhat absurd levels on my summoner in order to take full advantage of two day job boons he has to take 10 for a 900 gold return on day jobs, but that was just for fun. I've never seen anything even close to that high in scenarios, and I can't recommend putting too many resources into getting that high when more useful options are available.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Like many other skills in Pathfinder, spending the resources to get a +20 is not simply twice as burdensome as spending the resources to get a +10. To that extent, getting out the last dram of Diplomacy -- or the last bit of Perception, or armor class, or ground movement speed, or save DC on your enchantment spells -- might be considered a trap.
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One thing to point out is that diplomacy is very, very often NOT run by the rules. Many GMs will allow checks to be made in less than a minute and even in combat when it makes sense. Conversely, many GMs will not allow an absurdly high diplomacy roll to succeed as well as the rules state it should.
Both of the above are actually quite GOOD things in my opinion. Strictly interpreted the RAW can sometimes lead to very silly or unfun results.
But the salient point is : expect significant table variation on how effective your diplomacy skill will be. And, of course, even greater variation between scenarios
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So, there are a bunch of places where a diplomacy check needs to be in the high 20s or low 30s at least to be effective.
For one thing, you may only need a 24 to influence the unfriendly guard to make him not attack you, but if you don't move him to at least friendly, he won't tell you the password to open the door. And it is often easy for one of your party memebers to do something that unintentionally raises the DC. (The guard really hates elves, and if there is an elf in the party it raises the DC by +4)
I have never, ever, ever regretted my high diplomacy bard having +20, And often the first 2 hours of game have involved me talking us in to be where we had to be so that we can have the fight we signed up for. (at which point he sits in the corner and inspires courage, because, um, he's a bard and I didn't build him well for high tier combat. :) He rocked at 3-8th level, but his abilities didn't really scale as well as I hoped. )
Honestly, you can have a high diplomacy character and not invest very much into it. My bards have respectable diplomacy (both have +23 at levels 11 and 14) just from putting maximum skill ranks into it every level and being a high charisma class...and nothing else invested into it. They almost always were able to do what was needed diplomacy wise as they leveled.
And guess what? That's it. Maximum skill ranks and nothing else. So, one of them can use his spell focus (enchantment) and g spell focus to confuse enemies when it's needed, and the other one has all his feats dedicated to archery.
It's not something that needs to be mutually exclusive like some people seem to think. You can be effective at *both* skills and combat.
(Also, the burning hands trick is not going to be great passed level 1-3. Just so you are aware...I've seen many people try it, though.)
(Also, the burning hands trick is not going to be great passed level 1-3. Just so you are aware...I've seen many people try it, though.)
I'm aware. Unfortunately there's no way to retrain Gifted Adept, making it a dead trait, but fortunately (1) it becomes a dead trait at around the levels that being a sorcerer starts to pull its own weight, and (2) Varisian tattoo and Draconic Bloodline also apply to Searing Ray. Intensified, Energy-Substituted, Persistent and Dazing would help too, but that's a heavy feat investment along with the required Spell Focus and Spell Specialization, so it'd probably be more worthwhile to just get better spells.
And thanks for the diplomacy advice y'all. I'm getting the impression that Azata-Blooded Aasimar Tattooed Sorcerer with a Thrush familiar and the Illuminator trait are good (though Silver-Tongued Human sounds better, at the expense of Glitterdust and 2 Dex), and Skill Focus: Diplomacy is of mixed usefulness.
My group tends to play modules from every season, since people have lots of characters. How do the different seasons affect the usefulness of diplomacy? (I'd add that to the OP too, but it seems I can't)
If you're level 1, you can just choose a different trait. You can rebuild your entire character for free until you play a session at level 2 or above. (This is running on the assumption that you've already played this character. If you just want the trait for levels 1-3, then that's fine, too.)
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A really high take 10 is not overkill IMO. To get someone to reveal an important secret or provide dangerous aid is +10 to the DC. If the GM is applying all the modifiers appropriately, the DC can get pretty high.
I think I wound up with +35 diplomacy on my (now retired) sorcerer but that probably was overkill. I didnt really have any other feats I needed at level 11 though so I took skill focus.
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All said though I agree with a charisma class maxing out the skill ranks is more than enough.
Hmm... I would say max ranks is going to be enough. Since the DC of most diplomacy checks don't actually go up all that much, at level 11 you would have plenty.
However, at low and mid levels you still could be failing a lot of them because you only have a +6 or so and the DC is very nearly the same as what it will be at level 11. I think that skill focus: diplomacy can be very worth while.