Binding Outsiders - Why?

[Orion_Frostfire]

Hi guys,

just wanted to know whats the big benefit of summoning and binding outsiders?

In Ultimate Magic there is a whole chapter about the different kind of outsiders and a desciption of their individual likes/dislikes, but what exactely should I do with a temporary imprisoned elemental or other outsider?

I think it's a bit too expensive and the preparation is way too long for binding them just before a tough boss fight, so... what's the point?

Can I bind them for a life-long service or other permanent benefits?

[Sissyl]

They have pretty awesome special abilities. Most of them can teleport. All of them, more or less, are heavy hitters in combat. They have lots of knowledge, if you want that. Sometimes you want a guide to somewhere on the planes. But, perhaps most clearly, it can act as a further party member in combat for you, a reasonably powerful, intelligent one.

[Alleran]

You don't bind them just before a boss fight, you bind them before you walk into the dungeon in the first place.

You bind them because they have abilities they have and you want/need. A Nightmare can plane shift. An efreeti (or Pasha Shaitan, if you have GPB and don't want to risk the Evil issue) has wish. An einjerhar is a decent melee beatstick. A succubus is a fantastic "face" character. Even the smallest of outsiders may have access to greater teleport for rapid message relay. On top of this, you're adding an additional party member and an additional set of actions in your favour (action economy is the most important economy in the game).

And so on and so forth. The possibilities are only as limited as your imagination and ability to get the right creature for the right task.

To your last question, I would expect a lifelong service to be either completely unreasonable (without good compensation) or outright impossible to get. Now, binding them to guard something and then slapping on a binding spell afterward? That's another story entirely. So is a consistent alliance that matches the goals of the creature.

[Artemis Moonstar]

I've had a wizard that bound Earth Elementals and Shaitan to his service, to mine the rare ores from the Plane of Earth. I wound up with three Adamantine Golems out of that operation.

It was a simple matter to annihilate the Xorn infestation that was my payment.

The adamantine golems and my wizard were launched into deep space as a means of balancing out the party again (which was my idea).

[chaoseffect]

As you are a puny mortal with a life span that is meaningless in the face of eternity, I could see you possibly convincing an immortal outsider to "serve" you for your life time (I'm sure with a direct caveat in there that they are entitled to murder you if you try to gain immortality to game them); the issue is that though it may be nothing time wise to them, that is much longer than any usual contract they take. You would probably have to have an offer so ridiculous that they have no choice but to consider it.

If you're actually a person of note, you always have your soul to bargain with to get an awesome demon/devil/daemon butler.

[Artanthos]

chaoseffect wrote:

As you are a puny mortal with a life span that is meaningless in the face of eternity, I could see you possibly convincing an immortal outsider to "serve" you for your life time (I'm sure with a direct caveat in there that they are entitled to murder you if you try to gain immortality to game them); the issue is that though it may be nothing time wise to them, that is much longer than any usual contract they take. You would probably have to have an offer so ridiculous that they have no choice but to consider it.

I AM an immortal, playing god with the countless civilizations rising and falling around me like so many grains of sand.

Silly outsiders.

Spoiler:

This is the true advantage wizards have over martial characters. Power over their own fate.

The biggest mistake wizards make is to think they can change the world.
The biggest mistake the gods make is to allow a few of them to get away with it.

[Ughbash]

Why? because a Succubus looks so cute when tied up on the bed.

[Sissyl]

Thing is, the succubus is thinking you look so cute when she's tied up on the bed.

Energy drain is how they eat.

[Artanthos]

If your going to bind a succubus, one way or the other, make sure she's well compensated and happy to be of service.

[Ross Byers]

Orion_Frostfire wrote:

I think it's a bit too expensive and the preparation is way too long for binding them just before a tough boss fight, so... what's the point?

Planar binding is often free*. You only need to pay them if you think you need the bonus on your Charisma check. (You are right that planar ally is very expensive.)

*It does however cost three spell slots and a lot of time, and sometimes backfires.

You can't get lifelong service unless you have some other magic available: The planar binding spell limits the spell to 1/day a level unless you give them a clear goal. So if you bind a devil with 'Bring me the head of John the Baptist', then they will serve you until he's dead, but they don't have to follow any other orders from you. If you instead say "Act as my servant and bodyguard", then you have 1 day/caster level before they pop back to Hell. And they get a second chance to make a charisma check to break out of the binding.

[Lincoln Hills]

You kidding, Orion_Frostfire? Planar binding is the Swiss army knife of spells. Quite aside from the fact that you basically get to choose the perfect (and... expendable) "extra party member" for the task at hand, every time a new Bestiary comes out, you get more blades on your knife. So to speak.

There are outsiders specialized in enchantment, in blasting, stealth, masquerading as mortals, divination. There are outsiders you can order to search the bottom of a boiling lake for the pinky-ring you dropped and outsiders you can send to the moon. No matter how boring, dangerous or vile the task, you've got somebody handy to do it.

[Damon Griffin]

Ross Byers wrote:

*It does however cost three spell slots and a lot of time, and sometimes backfires.

Why three?

[Ross Byers]

Dimensional anchor, or most outsiders can just teleport free of the magic circle

[Damon Griffin]

One inward-facing magic circle for the outsider, with dimensional anchor. Another outward-facing magic circle for me, plus the actual summoning spell, would be four. I guess the second circle for me is optional, though.

[The Shaman]

The binding spell itself, a protection circle to keep them inside and a dimensional anchor to keep them on this plane, I imagine.

Overall, consider the planar binding as a very long duration summon. Regular summon monsters are spells you use for an encounter, a bound outsider is something you use for the entire dungeon and possibly beyond - or when you have a job that you can't lead to a random local NPC - i.e. the characters might not have the time to guard the secret royal archive vault non-stop for 2 months. However, a bound outsider can do that, and do it fairly well.

[Tinalles]

You can potentially use planar binding to summon an outsider enemy. At least, I hope so. There are three succubi loose in the Kingmaker campaign I'm playing in, and we've been having a hard time getting them to stand and fight. Why would they? They can just ethereal jaunt away and leave behind a trail of energy-drained corpses, enchanted puppets, and mentally scarred victims.

So I'm thinking we may need to try researching their true names in order to summon them and kill them.

[Ross Byers]

Tinalles wrote:

You can potentially use planar binding to summon an outsider enemy. At least, I hope so. There are three succubi loose in the Kingmaker campaign I'm playing in, and we've been having a hard time getting them to stand and fight. Why would they? They can just ethereal jaunt away and leave behind a trail of energy-drained corpses, enchanted puppets, and mentally scarred victims.

So I'm thinking we may need to try researching their true names in order to summon them and kill them.

Why don't you zap them with dimensional anchor? That will stop them from teleporting, plane shifting, or ethereal jaunting.

[Ross Byers]

Damon Griffin wrote:

One inward-facing magic circle for the outsider, with dimensional anchor. Another outward-facing magic circle for me, plus the actual summoning spell, would be four. I guess the second circle for me is optional, though.

Absolutely. Plus a prepared banishment or dismissal, and various other backup plans. I just meant the minimum, cheapest way.

[Tinalles]

Ross Byers wrote:

Why don't you zap them with dimensional anchor? That will stop them from teleporting, plane shifting, or ethereal jaunting.

So far, they've won initiative every time we actually get in the same room. And then, having won initiative, they proceed to use ethereal jaunt run away before we even get a chance to act, and continue using our citizens as toys.

And honestly, running away is a smart strategy for them. If we ever manage to actually fight them, they are going to get diced in short order, and they know it. So why stick around when they can just run away and keep doing as they please?

It may take a while to deal with the wretched things, since we have no effective means of forcing a confrontation. Or even tracking them. They can just change shape, vanish into the crowds and continue sowing mayhem.

Hence I'm hoping a planar summoning with the appropriate true names might work for just trapping them long enough to actually fight them.

[Ross Byers]

You can also use planar binding to get something with locate creature and make the task "Kill succubus A".

Edit: A few zelekuts would be perfect for this. Hunting chaotic creatures that are continuing to evade justice? That'll get you a bonus on your binding check.

They can't teleport after them, but they can hound them relentlessly, and cast dimensional anchor when they get there, which might at least get the succubi to leave your kingdom alone.

Should probably summon extra zelekuts, though, since by RAW the succubi can overcome the inevitables' DR/chaotic, but the zelekuts can't overcome the succubi's DR/good (and the demons are immune to the electricity damage they dish out, too.) A kinder GM might allow good OR law to overcome the DR, though. Ask yours.

[Tinalles]

That's brilliant! And a perfect example of how binding outsiders can be extremely useful.

[Poldaran]

chaoseffect wrote:

If you're actually a person of note, you always have your soul to bargain with to get an awesome demon/devil/daemon butler.

He would have to be simply one HELL of a butler. And whenever a problem arose, be it legion of angry angels, mortal assassins, or simply you having misplaced one of your cufflinks, he would solve it. For if he couldn't do that much for his master, what kind of butler would he be, really?

[Spook205]

Ross Byers wrote:

You can also use planar binding to get something with locate creature and make the task "Kill succubus A".

Edit: A few zelekuts would be perfect for this. Hunting chaotic creatures that are continuing to evade justice? That'll get you a bonus on your binding check.

They can't teleport after them, but they can hound them relentlessly, and cast dimensional anchor when they get there, which might at least get the succubi to leave your kingdom alone.

Should probably summon extra zelekuts, though, since by RAW the succubi can overcome the inevitables' DR/chaotic, but the zelekuts can't overcome the succubi's DR/good (and the demons are immune to the electricity damage they dish out, too.) A kinder GM might allow good OR law to overcome the DR, though. Ask yours.

Beauty of this plan is the compounding Inevitables. You destroy a Zelekhut in the legal performance of its duties? Somewhere an axiomite forges another zelekhut with the defined purpose of bringing you to justice for violating the inevitable concepts of justice and so on and so on. Maybe this one has cold iron chains or something.

Planar binding has pay offs (and risks) far in excess of the spell itself, as you're essentially starting a relationship (or becoming noticed) by an entity who has objectives, goals and allies of his or her own.

Elementals are the safest to summon, but commensurately, pay off the least.

[Malwing]

Because you want to be this guy. Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit: http://youtu.be/zFuMpYTyRjw