| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This company is about as progressive as they come. Sorry, OP, but you're wrong. Paizo works hard on this issue and I am sure Jessica keeps a tight rein on things.
For every person that complains, there are a hundred fanboys that buy more due to the art. Paizo, progressive as it is, does have to listen to it's consumers, too.
Contrary to what appears to be common belief, I'm not actually the one raising objections most times. Usually, someone else sees something that seems off or makes them uncomfortable, and brings it to me for a third or fourth opinion. :-)
There's no one person here who's the one setting the tone or what's acceptable. It is very much a team effort.
I just wonder where the outrage is concerning the hypersexualized males? Sajan, Seltyiel, and the upcoming (what I assume to be) bloodrager iconic are all 3 in revealing clothing. Many of the old 70s and 80s artwork of fantasy genre all how hypersexualized males as well. Or does shirtless heavily muscled male bodies not count, because their groin isn't overly large like the complaints about rather large breasts?
I am honestly curious, as all I ever hear are complaints about women in revealing clothing, "well endowed", and seductive.
OP is not really about art and does not really reference iconics.
None of what you've written deals with the issue of NPC interaction/presentation in APs and modules over a lengthy period of time.
And not every reply specifically must relate to the OP, but can be in reference to other conversations within the thread that crop up.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Heavily muscled male bodies aren't necessarily equivalent to scantily clad female ones, because they're not necessarily designed to appeal sexually to the viewer. Many of those heavily muscled male barbarians and warriors from 70s and 80s fantasy art aren't designed to appeal to women or gay men -- they're designed to appeal to straight men. They're not sexual fantasies, they're power fantasies.
Yes, this.
I asked Mrs Gersen what she would expect, "if I were ever going to play that game." Sexualized men would come in two types:
(a) Buff werewolves, etc. that the female PCs are supposed to reject as "too blatant" in their advances. They are very sexualized, and exist in very large numbers, but their sole function is as pining victims for women to reject (although it goes without saying they should slavishly obey and assist the female PCs at all times). All the guys in "300" with the airbrush abs would also fall into this category. They are very important as a foil to (b), below.
(b) VERY androgynous, angsty vampires. These are the sex objects female PCs are "supposed" to hook up with. Frazetta illustrations need not apply!
If this sounds suspiciously like Twilight, now you know why those things were somehow bestselling books and blockbuster movies.
---------
TL/DR: Mrs Gersen has no interest in her PC hooking up with a muscle guy. She wants lots of them for her PC to reject in favor of the angsty vampire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I ran Skulls and Shackles. There are a lot of Callistria worshipers in Skulls and Shackles. Any of them worthy of note is female and quite flirtatious. I don't recall any male Callistria worshipers at all.
Wouldn't having at least one flirtatious male Callistra worshiper in Quent have made more sense? I honestly doubt that only females are interested in this deity.
Something I suggested for another topic which escapes me at the moment: would it be possible to have something like bonus material (like the Bonus Bestiary, for example) with multiple romantic/non-romantic interests in it.
That way the AP/module can concentrate on the main NPCs and story line while the downloadable extra content can shore up the other avenues that the players might want to enjoy. Could even use this content like DVD extras with material that didn't make it into the AP but is still interesting. No art needed for this, which solves or at least avoids a problem and allows for social interactions, story hooks and so on for those that are interested or want more variety, and those that don't aren't obligated to download.
I do find the Sajan comment kind of humorous. If you are going to have a buff guy that women are going to like, it would be more like this. Next to where his pants line is, Sajan looks like he is following "I Dream of Genie" standards.
I heard some comedian say that showing the hip area like in the picture is "The Notebook", whereas the pictures Carlos Danger sent out is more like "Aliens". LOL
It's almost become a quirk/inside joke among our group that every time we encounter a female character for the first time, I (or someone else if I forget -- not likely) will immediately inquire: "Is she hot?" The thing is, at first I was greeted with answers that indicated mostly attractive females, occasionally a "hell yeah!" response if she was particularly sexy. But after asking this question incessantly for every single female we ever encountered, the ratio between "hot" and "not" was still about 50:50. I asked several of the people in our group out of session what percentage of the females in our campaigns are usually considered attractive, and they answered around 80%.
I'm no statistician, and I have only limited experience regarding official pathfinder APs, but perhaps it's just that many people will naturally pay more attention to the attractiveness of a hot babe than the unattractiveness of a not-hot babe.
And your arguments have intrigued me on the matter. One half of me wants to start asking "Is he hot?", and the other half of me knows that that question will spoil the joke. As I GM and as I play, I'll have to constantly watch the sexuality and attractiveness of each of the characters. I'm pretty sure that a female player will inevitably encounter some D-bag who persistently hits on her and makes inappropriate comments, and while this is only one way to explore the issue, having more overtly sexual male characters can only really be a good thing.
I just wonder where the outrage is concerning the hypersexualized males? Sajan, Seltyiel, and the upcoming (what I assume to be) bloodrager iconic are all 3 in revealing clothing. Many of the old 70s and 80s artwork of fantasy genre all how hypersexualized males as well. Or does shirtless heavily muscled male bodies not count, because their groin isn't overly large like the complaints about rather large breasts?
I am honestly curious, as all I ever hear are complaints about women in revealing clothing, "well endowed", and seductive.
1) The reason, I believe, that you don't hear complaints about blatant sexualization of male characters is because it's comparatively rare. As I keep saying, I don't believe that anyone here is complaining that objectified female characters exist -- they're complaining that it seems to be the norm, or at least too common.
2) Heavily muscled male bodies aren't necessarily equivalent to scantily clad female ones, because they're not necessarily designed to appeal sexually to the viewer. Many of those heavily muscled male barbarians and warriors from 70s and 80s fantasy art aren't designed to appeal to women or gay men -- they're designed to appeal to straight men. They're not sexual fantasies, they're power fantasies.
(This Shortpacked Comic explains it pretty well.)
If you want to get a sense of what women find attractive, it's worth looking at things like the Glamour poll (in which 90,000 women voted on who they thought were the sexiest men -- with that large a sample size, it's worth paying attention to). You're not going to see a lot of wrestlers or bodybuilders there, which is a decent first clue that that 70s and 80s art isn't really designed with a female audience in mind. It's largely art by men, for men.
Wait, wait, wait...so my girlfriend can't keep calling me gay because I like big muscly dudes? Internet, you win again!
Honestly, I like Paizo's approach, though I agree with the OP, in regards to actual scenarios/sexual situations. With the art, I want reasonably covered people, uncovered people, hot people, not hot people, and everything in between.
And whoever did the hot picture of the chubby Osirion chick...kudos. She's overweight, but not a disgusting Jabba monster. I'm glad, and I hope we'll see more of it.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
And whoever did the hot picture of the chubby Osirion chick...kudos. She's overweight, but not a disgusting Jabba monster. I'm glad, and I hope we'll see more of it.
I'm glad you like the art, but how about we don't refer to overweight people as "disgusting" or "monsters."
Yeah. That headdress is a constant risk of breaking her neck. Not even my dear head carapace comes close.
It was especialy ridiculous when she was swabbing decks in Wormwood Mutiny. I wouldn't have been surprised if Scourge set it on fire/ganked it.
And whoever did the hot picture of the chubby Osirion chick...kudos. She's overweight, but not a disgusting Jabba monster. I'm glad, and I hope we'll see more of it.I'm glad you like the art, but how about we don't refer to overweight people as "disgusting" or "monsters."
I reserve the right to describe Mama Graul using those words. :P
stuffstuff
Thanks for the answer.
I reserve the right to describe Mama Graul using those words. :PAnd whoever did the hot picture of the chubby Osirion chick...kudos. She's overweight, but not a disgusting Jabba monster. I'm glad, and I hope we'll see more of it.I'm glad you like the art, but how about we don't refer to overweight people as "disgusting" or "monsters."
To be fair, that's because she's a literal ogre, not because she's overweight :P
Seriously mods, the tittle of the thread do not represent what the OP intended to say. Just reading the tittle people will get a false impresion, like DrDeth.
Please mods, change the tittle.
+1 if the OP is cool with it
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't believe I am having to explain hyperbole... darn interwebz!
Not many people grasp statistics either. If I have 1 person responding to a survey, and I only gave out 1 survey, I can legit say "100% of respondents responded!" It's misleading, yes, but still perfectly valid.
@ Wiggz: However, when I used that "99%" comment in response to Mr. Mona's statement of the lashunta being one of a thousand, it's because I honestly do mean that not only are there zero races present in all DnD/Pathfinder material where the male is considered more attractive than the female (despite many real-world instances where that is not the case - I mean, "peacocking" is a word for a reason), but also that there are extremely few instances of men as sexualized objects in pathfinder - the two, maaaybe three instances that very observant people, such as myself and Mikaze, were immediately identified and listed, and yet the opposite is so vast that I could spend all day struggling to find a place to even start.
If you don't believe me, or apparently you feel the opposite (that... men are too sexualized?? I guess??), then please, feel free to provide me with examples of male deities cupping their private parts the same way that Urgothoa manages to just adequately cover her nips.
Now, nobody walk away from this thinking that I somehow disapprove of her nudity - I think it's pretty freakin' awesome that the goddess of undeath is a heedless, nonconforming rebel, and I think that one of the ways to express that female confidence and rebellion is sometimes to show them in ways that are almost reminiscent of bra-burning protests in the 60s. However, I also am very aware of the fact that breasts are very associated with sexual connotations and whatever a feminist movement might prefer, and whatever people might say about how scared they are/unattractive they think an almost dead woman is, it's simple fact that she's got two gorgeous breasts attached to her body, for absolutely no reason than to perhaps establish her femininity. She could have just as easily been a female head on a skeleton body, or had her flesh end before her breasts began, but her design choice is what it is. I don't have any problem with that whatsoever (although other people are free to).
But please, Wiggz, provide me with one, single example of a male pathfinder deity needing to cover his privates due to nudity, if you think that men are so sexualized. Additionally, feel free to provide a single instance of a male species lusting over, in sexual subservience towards, or any species described by their sexual relations with women/non-hetero relationships, instead of in the strict context of how they interact with straight males.
Because I can provide you with examples of female monsters already, just off the top of my head: thraie, lamias, nymphs, dryads, nereids, oceanids, harpies, medusae, lillitus, succubi, serapits(no clue how to pluralize that), to name a few. That wasn't even me needing to dig out the beastiary and find all the other monsters who also use female-formed lures to bait people into traps.
Please find me a single example of an attractive male seducer creature. I'll even toss you a freebie - the fossegrim is the only unclothed male creature that I am aware of... except that his entry doesn't provide any interests other than "he likes to drown people in pools". Please, and I mean it, I am genuinely curious as to what you could consider to be "male as a sexual object"-type instances in Paizo material. Provide an instance of a male god depicted in sexually revealing clothes (i.e. clothing that draws attention to, or emphasizes his body - as mentioned before in this thread, simply being shirtless does not count, as for some reason - being different genders and all, or something, I guess, men and women, like, have different beauty standards?). Give me an example of a demon prince, a devil, any creature at all in the same pose Nocticula has in "The Lords of Chaos", or give me an example of any male creature defined by his fecundity (the way hags, the frog demon queen, and Lamashtu are).
Sometimes there are examples of equivalence. Sometimes there is Socothbenoth next to nocticula, or a male Calistraen image following a depiction of a female Calistrean. You can cite those low-hanging fruit if you want, but like I said, it's pretty low-hanging and I still don't know if I can think of any men that are sexually objectified.
If you can back your claims up with evidence, please do so. I already have given you pages worth. You provide one, just one. That will be my 1%. If you can provide more, it will add to the discussion. If you cannot, don't claim otherwise.
@ DrDeath: see above. I provided a number of factual statements. fact: incubi have been divorced from their role as seducers and have consistently been regulated to guard duty, unimportant to every AP they've appeared in and unimportant to every ruling Lust Creature (alu-fiend, Runelord, and Demon Prince alike). fact: female seducer creatures consistently show up in APs and other material. fact: up until EXTREMELY recently (as in within the last month), when they do, they only have females enthralled, and never have positions of sexual dominance over men. fact: male seducer creatures don't seduce anyone. fact: aside from incubi, I am not aware of a single male seducer creature. satyrs have been mentioned, fossegrim have been mentioned, both don't fit the criteria of being "seducers" given the satyr's emphasis on being a partier and the fossegrim's emphasis on being a CE murdermachine with no other explanation or interests.
fact: neither of these have ever appeared with the same sexual connotations as any of the female creatures I listed above in any AP or other material. So, I'm sorry, but "you're wrong, nuh-uh" statements aren't worth my time any longer. You're right, though - Paizo IS progressive. Read through some other posts in the read to see why they're so awesome and cool, and why we all agree with you on that. However, there is no one point where anybody in the world reaches "progressive-ism perfection". I am sorry if this news disappoints you.
I do find the Sajan comment kind of humorous. If you are going to have a buff guy that women are going to like, it would be more like this. Next to where his pants line is, Sajan looks like he is following "I Dream of Genie" standards.
I heard some comedian say that showing the hip area like in the picture is "The Notebook", whereas the pictures Carlos Danger sent out is more like "Aliens". LOL
HaHA! I can't imagine a more perfect example of how different the context of "shirtless male being incidentally attractive" and "clearly meant to emphasize the body" are!
Personally, I do think that Sajan and Seltyiel are both very attractive. However, despite their 'revealing" outfits, male chests - especially bare male chests in the context of "two male melee fighters" is not sexual. As unfair as it may seem to some people, they're not done with the intent of making their bodies sexual objects.
Here's an example: Female! Sajan dresses exactly the same. Pants above her hips, little strange arm... booties... whatever, and goes around shirtless - but with breast-bindings that completely cover her upper chest, leaving no pronounced cleavage, no exposure above OR below, and in short, making her look completely non-sexualized in that area. That someone might still find her attractive is incidental: she is effectively dressed as-expected for an NPC of her type (that being a melee-intensive monk).
Merisiel's boob-window is out of place, both in the context of the character and her outfit. She is dressed in otherwise unremarkable dark leathers that are tight, but not-particularly so. Having her boob window is like turning Sajan's pants into leg-booties similar to those on his arm and just giving him some nice blue undies to keep the goods from spilling out (not that I would ever complain in any way about that, though I know I'd be the dissenting opinion). Booby/booty windows, so long as it's even somewhat equal, I'm cool with it.
That's not to say that male chests can't be sexualized - as Pres Man already helpfully illustrated - but rather that they require slightly more context in order to do so, unlike female anatomy. Seoni displaying magnificent cleavage is magnificent cleavage first, always, regardless of situation. Seltyiel's vest torn open due to a fireball is simply him taking armor damage. There is no attention to his body. Seltyiel pulling open his vest for no reason other than to pull it open, however, is emphasis on the beauty of his body. Significant difference between representation of the two sexes. Sometimes, yes, it is very unfair, but that is the context of the society we live in.
Heavily muscled male bodies aren't necessarily equivalent to scantily clad female ones, because they're not necessarily designed to appeal sexually to the viewer. Many of those heavily muscled male barbarians and warriors from 70s and 80s fantasy art aren't designed to appeal to women or gay men -- they're designed to appeal to straight men. They're not sexual fantasies, they're power fantasies.Yes, this.
I asked Mrs Gersen what she would expect, "if I were ever going to play that game." Sexualized men would come in two types:
(a) Buff werewolves, etc. that the female PCs are supposed to reject as "too blatant" in their advances. They are very sexualized, and exist in very large numbers, but their sole function is as pining victims for women to reject (although it goes without saying they should slavishly obey and assist the female PCs at all times). All the guys in "300" with the airbrush abs would also fall into this category. They are very important as a foil to (b), below.
(b) VERY androgynous, angsty vampires. These are the sex objects female PCs are "supposed" to hook up with. Frazetta illustrations need not apply!
If this sounds suspiciously like Twilight, now you know why those things were somehow bestselling books and blockbuster movies.
---------
TL/DR: Mrs Gersen has no interest in her PC hooking up with a muscle guy. She wants lots of them for her PC to reject in favor of the angsty vampire.
Two things: A) that "buff werewolf or angsty vampire" comment amusingly sounds almost like the difference between Sajan and Seltyiel, and B) sorry we share an icon, but you, sir, have great taste in icons and your wife has great taste in men (if poor decision-making, I mean it's fantasy... why not have both? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This kind of stuff is why, even though I have no personal preference for me, put as many sexy dudes in my setting as there are sexy ladies (in fact, maybe even more?). There are heaps that are of other kinds of appearance. Also, being attractive comes in many shapes and sizes. I wrote a post about beauty standards in my world.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not many people grasp statistics either. If I have 1 person responding to a survey, and I only gave out 1 survey, I can legit say "100% of respondents responded!" It's misleading, yes, but still perfectly valid.
In fact, it's true no matter how many surveys you hand out and no matter how many get handed back.
|
Yeah. That headdress is a constant risk of breaking her neck. Not even my dear head carapace comes close.It was especialy ridiculous when she was swabbing decks in Wormwood Mutiny. I wouldn't have been surprised if Scourge set it on fire/ganked it.
That picture is probably the one piece of art I've seen in all of Pathfinder that bugs me the most. They're swabbing the decks, having just been press-ganged on to a ship and all their gear taken... and she's wearing this ginormous, impractical, and no-way-would-the-pirates-let-her-keep-it headdress that just looks wrong.
I realize that we recognize the iconics because of their iconic dress-- although we were able to recognize Seoni in her wedding dress in Ultimate Campaign, despite the vast change of outfit. But, still, that headdress in that picture seemed so out of place that I just couldn't buy the image.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not many people grasp statistics either. If I have 1 person responding to a survey, and I only gave out 1 survey, I can legit say "100% of respondents responded!" It's misleading, yes, but still perfectly valid.In fact, it's true no matter how many surveys you hand out and no matter how many get handed back.
haha god! you got me! +1!
edit: also I am totes okay with changing the thread title to almost anything else, if only to stop the people commenting on the thread title alone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just wonder where the outrage is concerning the hypersexualized males? Sajan, Seltyiel, and the upcoming (what I assume to be) bloodrager iconic are all 3 in revealing clothing. Many of the old 70s and 80s artwork of fantasy genre all how hypersexualized males as well. Or does shirtless heavily muscled male bodies not count, because their groin isn't overly large like the complaints about rather large breasts?
I am honestly curious, as all I ever hear are complaints about women in revealing clothing, "well endowed", and seductive.
2) Heavily muscled male bodies aren't necessarily equivalent to scantily clad female ones, because they're not necessarily designed to appeal sexually to the viewer. Many of those heavily muscled male barbarians and warriors from 70s and 80s fantasy art aren't designed to appeal to women or gay men -- they're designed to appeal to straight men. They're not sexual fantasies, they're power fantasies.
(This Shortpacked Comic explains it pretty well.)
Oh my! How did all these male power fantasies end up in these romance novels for women?
The OP has a point actually. Their main complaint was not related to artwork, but to the difference in how male and female races/characters are treated in Paizo materials
EX: Succubi and Incubi are represented in WotR. Succubi get a lot of page space dedicated to living up to the lore that makes them special. Incubi get to be used as monster thugs.
Some good quotes from OP that a lot of people bypassed because of the size of his post
"The impossibility of men in positions of sexual subservience, or being viewed as sexual objects, continues throughout all of Paizo’s materials"
" like driders, have been edited too. How many of you knew that male driders turn bug-faced when they’re turned into driders? I actually had no idea until very recently! That’s great though, don’t worry – female driders still have certifiably hot lady-parts"
"TL/DR
In short, I’ve perceived that there is a trend of women being placed in positions of sexual subservience, while men – even of the exact same lusty race – are not. It’s a weirdly consistent, borderline fetishistic constant throughout a LOT of Pathfinder materials, and while I’d love to see some real equivalence, I understand that’s not always possible. Failing equivalence, however, there’s another option: to not send that message at all, by no longer allowing material that perpetuates it. I’m not die-hard and bitter about this, however, and I’d love to hear other people’s experiences or reactions, to this, the material I’ve talked about, or whatever you feel like adding (if you feel like you have something to add)."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both succubi and incubi are products of the most primitive, (literally) medieval, stupid and malicious stereotypes about gender roles. It should come as no surprise that they come off as sexist. And considering the trigger status about rape today, it isn't surprising that incubi become monster thugs to fight. Seriously, anything else would cost Paizo. People are still screaming about Hook mountain massacre, aren't they? This discussion, about lust demons, is pretty useless, I think, because there is literally no other way to deal with it. Add to this that it does sell, and that the myths related to lust are rarely sweet, and the results are a foregone cpnclusion.
You, very obviously, did not read the OP.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Au contraire. His beef was that males and females were treated differently in Paizo books. A part of this was that succubi and incubi in the WotR AP had radically different roles, with males never subservient and much made of the availability of females. In particular, it was an issue that incubi were used as cannon fodder. My point is that these two monsters are the absolute worst point to start in that discussion, considering their origins and backgrounds as the worst caricatures of gender roles.
To be fair, that's because she's a literal ogre, not because she's overweight :PI reserve the right to describe Mama Graul using those words. :PAnd whoever did the hot picture of the chubby Osirion chick...kudos. She's overweight, but not a disgusting Jabba monster. I'm glad, and I hope we'll see more of it.I'm glad you like the art, but how about we don't refer to overweight people as "disgusting" or "monsters."
^Specifically this, Jessica. I'm overweight myself, and I think it's fantastic that Paizo includes artwork that does not depict overweight people as disgusting and/or as monsters, which up until the Mummy chick...I think accounted for all overweight individuals. Mama Graul, back in PF #3, might have been the last time I noticed an overweight individual in the entire PF run. (The giant from Kingmaker is too, but his race is a bit big in the stomach normally.) So lots of being left out, a single instance of gross and disgusting, and a cutie. Hope to see more of them. Maybe even a male next time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(...)fact: female seducer creatures consistently show up in APs and other material. fact: up until EXTREMELY recently (as in within the last month), when they do, they only have females enthralled, and never have positions of sexual dominance over men.(...)
I don't mean to nitpick, but this is in fact not correct. I haven't read the Wrath of the Righteous so I can't speak for how succubi are presented there, but the first adventure path Paizo ever published prominently features a succubus who is in a position of sexual dominance over both genders. The same adventure path also contains other "seductive creatures" that have males enthralled.
It's also worth noting that her description notes that she's previously abducted and killed at least four male apprentices from the other wings of the Runeforge, and that if given the opportunity she most definitely will try to sexually dominate PCs - both male and female.
In the same adventure path there is Xanesha, who keeps Justice Ironbriar continually smitten via Charm Monster spells as well as her sister Lucrecia, who is explicitly spelled out to have seduced and charmed Kaven Windstrike.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How many of these threads are there going to be? Feels like we've had this discussion on the boards dozens of times now.
I just received Mummy´s Mask 3 Shifting Sands and there i saw a picture of a
female gnoll slaver with breasts and some cleavage.
First there is the female monster with cleavage trap again and second it could really be discussed if those have actually breasts or something else. Probably a question of taste.
First it made me laugh because it looks kind of ridiculous, although it is good art. Then i thought about this thread and next thing that came to mind was that this is the first female of it´s art i personaly ever so.
Normaly such creatures, among some other similar, are only male.
So, despite this going into a certain nowadays often critized art trap, it is kind of a revolution itself, because it seems to be empowering females in another way and providing more equality i think.
On a sidenote, because sexual equality is a big thing here sometimes, there seem to be people who are really into such stuff, kind of fetish like. Being correct, if one would argue against this kind of picture, one would at the same time take something from those people.
Rocky waters^^
