You're going to be a melee combatant with a 10 strength (or less!)? Chain shirt is 25 lbs, scimitar is 4 lbs, spellbook is 3 lbs. So, how will you carry your clothes, backpack, pouches, spell components, etc.? Going with a medium load?
I understand the munchkin-like instincts that make this build appealing, but realistically?
What do people think?
You're going to be a melee combatant with a 10 strength (or less!)? Chain shirt is 25 lbs, scimitar is 4 lbs, spellbook is 3 lbs. So, how will you carry your clothes, backpack, pouches, spell components, etc.? Going with a medium load?
I understand the munchkin-like instincts that make this build appealing, but realistically?
What do people think?
Darkcloth studded leather armor , leave the spellbook on the horse.
I understand the munchkin-like instincts that make this build appealing, but realistically?
What do people think?
I think you need to not use the word munchkin.
Anyways... Ant haul.
The clothes you're wearing don't contribute to your carrying load. They're "free" weight.
Also, plenty of "finesse" characters run around with 10s for STR in my experience. Rogues, Swashbucklers, etc. Depends on the build.
I think a 12 Strength or so is more reasonable for such a character, since yeah, you do have to carry stuff for the first few levels at least, until magical means of increasing your carrying capacity become available.
Mithral Chain Shirt or (as BigNorse notes) Darkcloth leather armor helps with the armor, many GMs disregard clothing for encumbrance (I believe clothing is counted in Pathfinder but that this was an unintended change from 3.5), and there are numerous ways to increase or sidestep encumbrance - such as bags of holding, handy haversack, increasing your strength, using Ant Haul, Heavyload Belt, or Muleback Cords.
You might be in medium encumbrance for the first level or two when you wear normal armor and a regular backpack, but with a strength of 10 and a handy haversack you can generally leave those woes behind at level 3 or so.
The following numbers assume that the GM doesn't allow encumbrance-free clothing, otherwise he'll be carrying 3 lb less:
Handy Haversack: 5
Magic Cloak: 1
Magic Scimitar: 4
Magic Headband: 1
Sleeves of Many Garments + peasant outfit: 3
Mithral Shirt: 10
Magic hat: 1
Magic belt: 1
Magic boots: 1
Total of: 27
Encumbrance numbers based on my str 10 7th level bard.
There are some other things you can do to reduce the weight - use a masterwork backpack as the baseline for the handy haversack, change the material of your scimitar to make it lighter, or use bracers of armor instead of chain.
Either way keep backup weapons, scrolls, spellbook and anything else you don't need to wear in the haversack and you should be fine.
Edit: And please be more careful with the m-word.
Pardon my ignorance, but don't most dervish magus builds want 13 strength to qualify for Power Attack? That gives you 50 pounds before getting into medium load territory, which seems fine by me.
Pardon my ignorance, but don't most dervish magus builds want 13 strength to qualify for Power Attack? That gives you 50 pounds before getting into medium load territory, which seems fine by me.
Q4E
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Carrying Capacity is almost never a concern.
Strength is largely a unnecessary stat.
One of these statements may be true, but probably not both at the same time.
If you dump strength, suddenly carrying capacity does become a concern. With a strength of 10 or less, you actually need to make plans if you don't want medium encumbrance just from basic adventuring gear. Remember that bedrolls, ropes and tents are quite heavy.
It's a concern. Not an impossible problem, but still something you need to think about.
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A lot of GM's handwave that stuff away. People who assume you can get away with 5 strength assume that they can carry nothing but their sword and survive.
Of course, in my experience GM's stop handwaving stuff when you start taking advantage of it...
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Chain shirt is 25 lbs, scimitar is 4 lbs, spellbook is 3 lbs. So, how will you carry your clothes, backpack, pouches, spell components, etc.? Going with a medium load?
My PFS magus carries a total load of 19lbs, counting his Handy Haversack.
Pardon my ignorance, but don't most dervish magus builds want 13 strength to qualify for Power Attack? That gives you 50 pounds before getting into medium load territory, which seems fine by me.Q4E
Power Attack is not always the large gain in DPR most assume. Between being 3/4 BAB and only using one hand, the DPR gain for a magus is only a few points, if anything at all. Arcane Strike is a better deal.
You can also get the trait from the pathfinder society primer, muscle of the society. +2 to your strength score for carrying capacity and breaking stuff rolls.
+2 Str Item.
Or you can always just, you know, drop non-essential equipment during a fight.
As a GM, I Love unattended items and AoE spells/effects. Including spell books on horses...
It's also great when almost all of a players items are in one other magic item that can be destroyed with a targeted damage spell that can do 7-12 points of damage (after a successful item save, since it's leather) or sunder. If they can't steal the item, bad guys love the flexibility to strip an opponent of all their other magic items (and often spellbook).
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As a GM, I Love unattended items and AoE spells/effects. Including spell books on horses...
An item inside of a secure location on a horse, yes, very unattended and vulnerable.
Do you also CDG them in their sleep? haha, I love how they never expect the invisible flying assassin from the sky! Also he's a rock. Several rocks for bonus points.
...Is no one else questioning why the guy who dumped strength is then using his wealth to buy an item to boost his strength?
Points are hard to get in point buy systems. Cheap magic items are not.
See Muleback Cords. 1000 gp for +8 Str to Carrying Capacity only. That would bump you from 10 to 18, 17 points out of your 15-20 point build. For 1000 gold pieces.
See Handy Haversack. 115 lbs of bonus, non Str based carry capacity (because it weighs 5 always and can carry 120 pounds . . . ). And you do not provoke AoOs for taking items out. And the item you want is always on top.
See Heavyload Belt. Permanent ant haul for 2000 gold pieces. Triples your carry capacity. Even a Str 5 dervish saner can carry 36 pounds (keeping in mind that weapons and armor weigh 1/4 for small sized).
Stack all three, and you can get a Str 5 that counts as Str 13 for carry capacity, then triples that amount, then gets an additional 115 pounds for free.
That is 37.5 * 3 = 112.5 + 115 = 227.5 pounds, with a Str of 5, at light encumbrance, for 5000 gold.
Explain again why dumping Str is a bad idea?? If you have Craft Wondrous Items, you can make all the above items for 2500 gold. Just as a FYI, you would need a STR of 24 as a medium to get the same result.
Of course, if you're wearing Muleback Cords and a Heavyload Belt that means you're not wearing a Cloak of Resistance or a Belt of Dexterity. That's quite the tradeoff.
why would you take power attack, if you have got Piranha Strike? i dervish magus don't even use his weapon in two hands so he don't get the major beef for power attack...
Scimitar doesn't work with piranha strike. You can only use it with light weapons.
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You could add a Muleback Cords effect to an existing cloak of resistance +2 for 1.500 gp (for example). Of course, this is subject to GM discretion, but there are rules in the CRB for exactly this kind of item creation. Does not seem unreasonable to me.
Neither is a 10 in strength unreasonable for a character who has no use for strength besides carrying gear.
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I think the solution to munchkin builds is simple:
If you have a problem with it, make the player roll their stats. Disallow overpowered feat combinations. Ultimately it's your game, don't let one player shove their way around. Outside Pathfinder Society, it's DM's table and DM's rules.
Nobody has to allow excessive power gamers a seat at the table unless it's that sort of campaign.
The idea that building a character dex-based instead of Strength based in melee is so overpowered and antifun in your mind that you would ban it from your home games seems laughable to me. As long as everyone understands the rules of the class/character, everyone is playing along similar power lines, and everyone is having fun, who cares what your players play. It's your job as a GM to facilitate a fun game, and doing that in a way that most allows your players to do what they want to do should be your responsibility as a GM. I think that disallowing things is ultimately GM laziness, without prior play showing it to be unhealthy for your group. If everyone can play responsibly there are no problems with powerful characters. The problem isn't the builds, it's the players. You can play a powerful build responsibly, but a toxic player is a toxic player, regardless of build.
...Is no one else questioning why the guy who dumped strength is then using his wealth to buy an item to boost his strength?Because it's one of many ways to deal with encumbrance on a low Str character? Not one I would suggest to use, but it's there.
I don't really see how boosting your strength from 5 to 7 is really going to help or be worth the money, especially if encumbrance is the only reason you're getting it.
I've already debunked the other ways suggested. Making a dexterity based half-martial with no belt of dexterity and no cloak of resistance sounds like a terrible idea to me.
Chain shirt is 25 lbs, scimitar is 4 lbs, spellbook is 3 lbs. So, how will you carry your clothes, backpack, pouches, spell components, etc.? Going with a medium load?My PFS magus carries a total load of 19lbs, counting his Handy Haversack.
Pardon my ignorance, but don't most dervish magus builds want 13 strength to qualify for Power Attack? That gives you 50 pounds before getting into medium load territory, which seems fine by me.Q4EPower Attack is not always the large gain in DPR most assume. Between being 3/4 BAB and only using one hand, the DPR gain for a magus is only a few points, if anything at all. Arcane Strike is a better deal.
Not for a Magus. They have so many other uses for that swift action than Arcane Strike.
You're going to be a melee combatant with a 10 strength (or less!)? Chain shirt is 25 lbs, scimitar is 4 lbs, spellbook is 3 lbs. So, how will you carry your clothes, backpack, pouches, spell components, etc.? Going with a medium load?
I understand the munchkin-like instincts that make this build appealing, but realistically?
What do people think?
Mithral Equipment. Extradimensional storage.
It's not that complex. It's basically an assumption of: Level 1 and 2 will probably be hard, but you don't have that much equipment (that you can afford) then anyway, but after not too long the carrying capacity won't matter.
I don't consider 10 strength to be dumping, but considering the fact that the OP seems to believe any martial that doesn't have strength as a primary stat is munchkin trash I can see why you were arguing that point.
I don't consider 10 strength to be dumping, but considering the fact that the OP seems to believe any martial that doesn't have strength as a primary stat is munchkin trash I can see why you were arguing that point.
I agree. If your score in an ability doesn't result in a negative modifier, you're not dumping. A 10 in whatever ability just represents "you are average in this respect." The standard for "dumping" IMO is "you have a negative ability modifier."
I would personally get on people who put their CHA at 7 or 5 (assuming they don't roleplay as appropriately nebbishy or loathsome) much more than I would people who set whatever ability score at 10.
I think the most sensible answer I've seen is that the class doesn't really begin until third level with this build (when you can take Dervish Dance) - they're essentially a bard with no performance abilities until that time - so might as well go to medium encumbrance. As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore.
The guides that I've seen either suggest STR as a dump-stat or just not bumping it (from 10). I was just amazed they prioritized putting a few points in CHA or WIS over stabilizing encumbrance with just a few points in STR (in this case, odd numbers are helpful!). And yes, I can readily admit this is for campaigns with any sense of realism to them (i.e. don't ignore encumbrance).
A magus with high dexterity, medium encumbrance and Weapon Finesse will get by just fine on level 1-2.
Dervish Dance is a bit like archer builds really - bow users usually need a few levels to pick up the required feats (PBS, rapid shot, precise shot) to perform at full capacity.
That said, feel free to change the requirements for Dervish Dance if you want to make dexterity users more viable at levels 1-2. Different variations of baking Dervish Dance into Weapon Finesse is a common and popular houserule.
As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore
Or perhaps (other) people understand that not every class comes online right from first level (wizard/sorc anyone?) and that this is a cooperative game and that not everyone starts out as complete strangers to each other even at level 1 and FFS 10 Str is f&#+ing average. I have an Evangelist Cleric that started at a 10 Str at level 1 and is now level 9 and got by just fine. (I use an excel sheet that auto calculates encumberance as well.)
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I think the most sensible answer I've seen is that the class doesn't really begin until third level with this build (when you can take Dervish Dance) - they're essentially a bard with no performance abilities until that time - so might as well go to medium encumbrance. As a fellow adventurer, I'm not going to be very welcoming of a substandard companion into the group where they don't start being effective until 3rd level, or until they have a specific magic item or set of items...but perhaps people don't play levels 1 and 2 anymore.
Uh...at 1st level, a Dex Magus is a bit weak when not casting spells, but still does 1d6 damage (maybe with a slight penalty) pretty reliably, and can do the Wizard thing as well as most wizards as well (Color Spray is on their list, and they can cast it as many times a day as a Universalist). That's not bad. At 2nd level, they remain able to do this, and can also TWF with just their single sword using Spell Combat + Spellstrike + Arcane Mark, which helps damage when not casting an actual spell a bit.
In short, 1st and 2nd level Dex Magi are effectively Wizards who can hit you with a sword when not casting and don't need to burn a spell on Mage Armor. At 3rd level they start really being Magi (and fall behind wizards in casting), but they're hardly useless before then.
The guides that I've seen either suggest STR as a dump-stat or just not bumping it (from 10). I was just amazed they prioritized putting a few points in CHA or WIS over stabilizing encumbrance with just a few points in STR (in this case, odd numbers are helpful!). And yes, I can readily admit this is for campaigns with any sense of realism to them (i.e. don't ignore encumbrance).
Handy Haversacks stabilize encumbrance. No need for stat points.
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Im going to disagree. From a PFS perspective, DD (usually + Kensei or black blade) Magus is pretty much the standard, and causes a lot of issue that h ave been noted many times.
The magus takes Dervish Dance because he is forced into a specific fighting style. If spell combat worked with sword & board or two-handed weapons, Dervish Dance would be far less popular.
Kensai goes a step further. Without the ability to wear armor, he is already invested in dexterity.