Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping with our viewpoint of following Wheaton's Law, Tavernhold is hereby signing the Roseblood Accords with the following clarifications.
We interpret the entire thing as meaning the same thing as Wheaton's Law and the idea that this is a game and we're here to have fun. Both ideals are at the core of Tavernhold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping with our viewpoint of following Wheaton's Law, Tavernhold is hereby signing the Roseblood Accords with the following clarifications.
We interpret the entire thing as meaning the same thing as Wheaton's Law and the idea that this is a game and we're here to have fun. Both ideals are at the core of Tavernhold.
I respect your view, but for me, Wheaton's Law or even the motto of these forums: "Don't be a Dick" and "Don't be a Jerk"
I don't know, they just seem to be too vague and there are so many people capable of being either from time-to-time, talk about setting an impossible standard.
I'm sure if I said to my wife, "Hey, I've taken a vow not to be a Dick" She would probably respond with "Good luck with that". And she actually likes me more than most people!!
Well, for an Accord that doesn't actually enforce itself, I think a vague rule is the best. It's sort of a personal standard for me: I can usually tell when I'm being a dick. Being part of the RBA is a little promise that, when I realize I'm being a dick, I'll cut it out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I respect your view, but for me, Wheaton's Law or even the motto of these forums: "Don't be a Dick" and "Don't be a Jerk"
I don't know, they just seem to be too vague and there are so many people capable of being either from time-to-time, talk about setting an impossible standard.
I'm sure if I said to my wife, "Hey, I've taken a vow not to be a Dick" She would probably respond with "Good luck with that". And she actually likes me more than most people!!
No one is perfect and Wheaton's Law is a goal to strive toward. Everyone does something dickish from time to time. What matters is how you handle the situation afterward and that you try not to be a dick in that manner again.
However, with the guidance of Cayden Cailean, I believe that we can find positive outlets to avoid those kinds of tendencies.
That guy's guidance is the worst. It's always, "Get really drunk and hopefully you'll wake up with all your problems solved!"
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Everyone will act like a dick at points, but don't let it become the feature that defines you to people, aka accidently acting like a dick doesn't mean you are a dick, but choosing to act that way, probably does.
That is my opinion on the matter. We are all human, and everyone will slip up occasionally, no big deal. Don't plan on it or try for it though, it will happen regardless, and the less you intentionally do it, the less people will think of you as such.
<dismounting high horse>
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping with our viewpoint of following Wheaton's Law, Tavernhold is hereby signing the Roseblood Accords with the following clarifications.
We interpret the entire thing as meaning the same thing as Wheaton's Law and the idea that this is a game and we're here to have fun. Both ideals are at the core of Tavernhold.
I respect your view, but for me, Wheaton's Law or even the motto of these forums: "Don't be a Dick" and "Don't be a Jerk"
I don't know, they just seem to be too vague and there are so many people capable of being either from time-to-time, talk about setting an impossible standard.
I'm sure if I said to my wife, "Hey, I've taken a vow not to be a Dick" She would probably respond with "Good luck with that". And she actually likes me more than most people!!
it was a long time ago, but didn´t i read someday the UNC will have a feedback forum were its "victims" can go to to talk abut their experiences?
if this is at least partly intended to clear the air where needed then you already made a big step in a non-dickish direction in my book.|
Goblin Squad Member
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it was a long time ago, but didn´t i read someday the UNC will have a feedback forum were its "victims" can go to to talk abut their experiences?
if this is at least partly intended to clear the air where needed then you already made a big step in a non-dickish direction in my book.
My My, you do have an excellent memory. Whether it be an actual forum section or just an open invitation to PM an officer of the UNC, I don't think it really matters.
If you feel that a member of the UNC has been exceptionally dickish (ie griefing) then please feel free to contact: Bluddwolf, The Goodfellow, Talon Fox or Xeen. Provide a description of the event, a screen shot if possible and or a video stream and we will take up that behavior with our member.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it was a long time ago, but didn´t i read someday the UNC will have a feedback forum were its "victims" can go to to talk abut their experiences?
Like the Ankh-Morpork Thieves' Guild? Thank you for choosing UNC for your highway robbery experience. Here's your receipt, would you like to complete a satisfaction survey for 5% off your next mugging?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like the Ankh-Morpork Thieves' Guild? Thank you for choosing UNC for your highway robbery experience. Here's your receipt, would you like to complete a satisfaction survey for 5% off your next mugging?
it was a long time ago, but didn´t i read someday the UNC will have a feedback forum were its "victims" can go to to talk abut their experiences?
In the realm of Wheaton's Law, that could be a useful tool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen's public persona, which he's been marvelously careful to keep consistent, tells me that he'll use those messages to giggle a bit, order another drink, then design a training evolution ;-).
I'm planning on Xeen drafting the Victim's Survey. I have little doubt one of the questions will be "What does the color purple taste like?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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For a complete and up-to-date list of current accord members, please see the Roseblood Accord list.I'm starting a new thread to highlight the participation of the groups who have joined us since our initial announcement
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Nihimon, your list is out of date.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Xeen's public persona, which he's been marvelously careful to keep consistent, tells me that he'll use those messages to giggle a bit, order another drink, then design a training evolution ;-).I'm planning on Xeen drafting the Victim's Survey. I have little doubt one of the questions will be "What does the color purple taste like?"
It's great that you and the rest of the UNC are taking your commitment to positive gameplay seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's great that you and the rest of the UNC are taking your commitment to positive gameplay seriously.Xeen's public persona, which he's been marvelously careful to keep consistent, tells me that he'll use those messages to giggle a bit, order another drink, then design a training evolution ;-).I'm planning on Xeen drafting the Victim's Survey. I have little doubt one of the questions will be "What does the color purple taste like?"
I can see you might be taking this banter a bit too seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will you be issuing the surveys beforehand and in bulk? That way I can fill out a wad of them and just peel a preprepared one off and hand it over every time I get ganked.
Oh and purple tastes like chicken - I thought everyone knew that!
The survey discussion might be more appropriate on the UNC Policy thread. However, I pose the same question to the other signatories of the Roseblood Accord.
What system do you have in place to receive complaints about your membership?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I pose the same question to the other signatories of the Roseblood Accord.
What system do you have in place to receive complaints about your membership?
I wondered this one myself, when the question was asked.
There's a level of (more-or-less-veiled) hostility toward those members of the R.A. who plan to play evil characters that is difficult to understand. To be honest, as a person who doesn't like PvP, I think I-the-player, with my character full of Lawful-Goodiness, am far more likely to be angered by being killed and to therefore turn into a griefer than the player who has chosen a play style for their characters that is going to lead to them being freely executable most of the time.
Either players whose characters are of all alignments are playing as expected under the R.A. and need to be treated as such, or the R.A. is not what it wants to be.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Will you be issuing the surveys beforehand and in bulk? That way I can fill out a wad of them and just peel a preprepared one off and hand it over every time I get ganked.
Oh and purple tastes like chicken - I thought everyone knew that!
The survey discussion might be more appropriate on the UNC Policy thread. However, I pose the same question to the other signatories of the Roseblood Accord.
What system do you have in place to receive complaints about your membership?
If you don't feel comfortable addressing your complaint directly to the person in question, or that fails to satisfy you, you can escalate any complaint to the leadership. Provide as much information as needed to identify and resolve your complaint; chat logs, screenshots, and/or video of the perceived offense and context surrounding it are helpful to us in figuring out what happened, if they are available. You will probably get some acknowledgement at some point that your complaint was received, and may or may not be notified of whether action was taken or not.
If your problem is with the leadership themselves and/or you feel that bringing your concern up with them was unsatisfying, you can then further escalate to Goblinworks or to the court of public opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For TEO, if you have had a problem with a member of TEO, try to resolve it with them first. If that fails, please feel free to bring it up with Ixiolander, Cheatle, htrajan, or myself. If we are unable to resolve it, it will be moved up to Lifedragn to handle. We hope you'll never need to go beyond resolving it with the member in question, but we also hold ourselves to a high standard of personal behavior and will handle any allegations seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Any issues with Callambea citizens can be vetted through me directly or any of my thanes:
-Kardiak
-Glau
-Areks
-Hisroth
I don't mind receiving complaints directly, so if you feel more comfortable communicating with the leader first that is fine.
We investigate every complaint and communicate our results as soon as we feel we have a result.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golgothan citizens have the right to address their concerns through the chain of command. If the concern is with another group, it will be addressed diplomatically with the leadership of that group, once a Golgothan officer has overseen it.
If a non-citizen has concerns about a Golgothan citizen they should ask themselves two questions:
1) Did you break a Law within Golgothan Territory? If the answer is yes, and you are unhappy with the repercussions, then don't break our laws.
2) Did you attack a Golgothan citizen with the Heinous flag? If yes and you are unhappy with how Golgotha retaliated, then don't attack our citizens.
If you legitimately have a concern that a Golgothan citizen is griefing you, then the proper course of action would be to contact the leadership of your organization and have them contact Golgotha about your concerns. Golgotha will perform an investigation, but the burden of proof will be on a non-citizen. If you do not have an organization through which to contact Golgotha diplomatically, then the best course of action would be to compile proof and send it through a PM on the Xeilian website to one of the Golgothan Officers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually wonder how long it will be before someone DDOS's an opponent's leadership by having a bunch of alts flood them with plausible but spurious complaints. Time spent investigating complaints is time not spent doing other important things.
We may have to end up with a system where complaints are submitted by the complainant's settlement leadership rather than directly by the complainant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not a bad suggestion, Guurzak. Remember also that "investigation" here likely will little resemble anything court-acceptable in the real world.
I envision "too many" complaints easily becoming a boy-cried-wolf situation, causing something important to be missed. An idea like yours, getting a little bit of pre-screening, may aid the process for everyone.
EDIT: Bluddwulf brings up a good point: always report to GW first. They've promised an active GM-list able to take actions, so we shouldn't forget to use them as the first line of defence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually wonder how long it will be before someone DDOS's an opponent's leadership by having a bunch of alts flood them with plausible but spurious complaints. Time spent investigating complaints is time not spent doing other important things.
We may have to end up with a system where complaints are submitted by the complainant's settlement leadership rather than directly by the complainant.
This is why I said, the "victim's" first step should be to report it to GW. We (UNC) welcome the complaint to be brought up with us as well, and with proper evidence, we will have a talking to our member.
We will of course defer to GW's decision. If GW bans the player, what we would do has no meaning anyway. If GW does nothing, neither will we, as far any sanction beyond a "talking to".
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Goblin Squad Member
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If GW does nothing, neither will we...
May I suggest that you allow yourselves more flexibility to deal with reported behaviour than that? GW may take actions not visible, and will likely, given the state of privacy laws, not be able to discuss any action--taken or not taken--at all.
We--as Companies, Settlements, and Kingdoms--may need to make our enforcement more open in order to manage our public images as we wish them managed.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I actually wonder how long it will be before someone DDOS's an opponent's leadership by having a bunch of alts flood them with plausible but spurious complaints. Time spent investigating complaints is time not spent doing other important things.
We may have to end up with a system where complaints are submitted by the complainant's settlement leadership rather than directly by the complainant.
This is why I said, the "victim's" first step should be to report it to GW. We (UNC) welcome the complaint to be brought up with us as well, and with proper evidence, we will have a talking to our member.
We will of course defer to GW's decision. If GW bans the player, what we would do has no meaning anyway. If GW does nothing, neither will we, as far any sanction beyond a "talking to".
I keep getting confused by UNC's policy here; right now you are saying that no behavior that doesn't result in Goblinworks sanctioning the player is undesirable in your company.
Granted, the expected first minor offense outcome should be 'counseled offender regarding acceptable and desired behavior', but saying that you would never progress toward a warning, reprimand, reduction in status, or other sanction seems unwise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually wonder how long it will be before someone DDOS's an opponent's leadership by having a bunch of alts flood them with plausible but spurious complaints. Time spent investigating complaints is time not spent doing other important things.
We may have to end up with a system where complaints are submitted by the complainant's settlement leadership rather than directly by the complainant.
This is why I said, the "victim's" first step should be to report it to GW. We (UNC) welcome the complaint to be brought up with us as well, and with proper evidence, we will have a talking to our member.
We will of course defer to GW's decision. If GW bans the player, what we would do has no meaning anyway. If GW does nothing, neither will we, as far any sanction beyond a "talking to".
I keep getting confused by UNC's policy here; right now you are saying that no behavior that doesn't result in Goblinworks sanctioning the player is undesirable in your company.
Granted, the expected first minor offense outcome should be 'counseled offender regarding acceptable and desired behavior', but saying that you would never progress toward a warning, reprimand, reduction in status, or other sanction seems unwise.
I'm not sure if I poorly worded my post or you have, I'll restate my position.
In the event that I receive a report of complaint against one of mybers, and that same complaint was reported to Goblin Works. I would defer to GW decision on the complaint. If GW ultimately determined that the offense, if any, did not require a penalty we would not either.
If GW issued a warning or a short term ban, we would warn the member to avoid such behavior in the future. If they repeated the behavior, I would assume that GW would issue sterner sanctions, and our warnings will progress as well.
At some point GW may ban the player, and there will be nothing further for us to do.
What I don't foresee is our sanctions exceeding those of GW. We may warn our members that their actions do not conform to our expectations and perhaps that could lead to a sanction, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.
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That appears to boil down to, "We will leave discipline over such matters to Goblinworks, and will not otherwise respond to complaints." Is that correct?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If GW ultimately determined that the offense, if any, did not require a penalty we would not either.There is the possibility that GW will only intervene when there is a major offense. For minor offenses, "victims" may hope UNC will have a "talking to" even if GW doesn't act.
There is that possibility as I stated previously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm planning on Xeen drafting the Victim's Survey. I have little doubt one of the questions will be "What does the color purple taste like?"
Late but I have not been keeping up with the threads.
Purple is not as flamboyant as chartreuse but more piquant than C above middle C with some of the mellowness of a mink glove properly applied.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I keep getting confused by UNC's policy here; right now you are saying that no behavior that doesn't result in Goblinworks sanctioning the player is undesirable in your company.
Granted, the expected first minor offense outcome should be 'counseled offender regarding acceptable and desired behavior', but saying that you would never progress toward a warning, reprimand, reduction in status, or other sanction seems unwise.
1. Warning and reprimands are part of the "give a talking to".
2. A reduction in status? So, you are asking will we punish a member by reducing company rank for offenses that even GW did not punish?
3. What would seem unwise to me would be to have a higher standard than the enforcement of the game developers / game moderators.
DeciousBrutus, you seem to be overly interested, or possibly consumed with everything that the UNC says or proposes to do in game. You often try to veil this prodding / probing behind the mask of "confusion", but honestly, perhaps you should worry more about what you are going to do in the game.
The UNC is pretty plain spoken, and the most transparent of all companies that frequently participate on these forums. I find it genuinely hard to believe that confusion is being caused. If it is, that is a problem on your end of the conversation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Shorter Bluddwolf: Civil society isn't a thing; community self-moderation is a fiction; only administrative fiat matters. Everything that is not forbidden is permitted.
We're pushing back on those assumptions and telling people not only will there be rules but that "everything that is not forbidden is permitted' thinking is wrong in the context of our game.
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We're not a game where everything that is not forbidden is permitted. If you find a loophole, you shouldn't jump through it.
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I don't want to encourage "everything that is not forbidden is permitted" thinking. I want to encourage people to actively work towards taking personal responsibility for collectively fixing a big problem
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there must be a hybrid between hard & fast rules established by us, the administrators, for the purpose of good order and functioning of the product, fuzzy guidelines regarding appropriate behavior that will be enforced as necessary for the best interests of the game, the community and the business, and standards evolved by the community and policed by the community for the commons you hold jointly.
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One of both: or DeciusBrutus are trying to troll/stalk UNC directly (against the Roseblood Accord that their/our groups signed) or need serious help with interpretation skills. but even me, as a poor-enlgish-reader/writer (I mean really really bad in english), I could understand a lot of things that he is confused about.
But seriously, none of us are naive to believe this constant confusion status. The intended, as much I can tell, is really undermine our proposal of being fully transparent on what we will do by trying to show (someone?) the bad-side of our actions. Since this is not offensive, seems a bit of harassment or bullying.
Once I almost posted the following, but deleted in last minute when Caldhean arrived. But since the insistance on this behavior I change my mind:
DeciusBrutus, if you like too much of UNC proposal, join us. Free yourselves the shackles that hold you in your agressive/troll/stalk position and come have fun with us. I promise I will try my best to write properly english (which I promise I will fail miserably more often than I want) and we can laugh through it. If this is not the case, I guess the healthy way is let it go, man.