As I sat down to work out the names of the dwarves and settlement and its citizens I realized that there are almost no defined dwarven words in the Pathfinder setting. Investigating further I found that this was true for every in game language. This struck me as odd since I am used to sourcebooks and supplements providing at least a basic overview of common words used in the subjects language. For example Warhammer army books often contain several pages outlining language vocabulary numeric system and calendar systems. Of course there is nowhere near enough material to establish an actual spoken language but there is more than enough to create flavorful names for places people and magical items.
I would like to see Pathfinder develop a similar amount of linguistic depth. I know many turn to already established fantasy languages generally those created by Tolkien and Gamesworkshop. Even though there is no one looking over my shoulder telling me not to I just don't feel right borrowing so heavily from other settings.
One way to interpret the naming conventions is that characters encounter most of them in the Taldorian (common) translations, but native speakers might write/pronounce it differently their native tongue.
Just like RL locations have different pronunciations according to language. London = Londres (french); Japan = Nihon (japanese).
In the case of your example it is not the meaning of the word being translated but the pronunciation. London is a difficult example since the etymology of the name is unknown.
There are many untranslated foreign words that we encounter everyday. For example I live in the state of Pennsylvania. Literally translated it means Penn's forest. Specifically I live in Allegheny county. Allegheny being a Native American word. Zeroing further I live in the city of Pittsburgh which is derived from old English and means Pitt's fort or Fort Pitt. I am a student at La Roche collage a name obviously of French origin. If we simply "translated everything to common" than the city of San Diego would be called Saint James.
By allowing numerous languages to exist a fantasy world becomes covered in a tapestry of history and cultures. "Translating" everything is a boring and perhaps even lazy approach.
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I don't know if you have access to them - or if they even still sell them here on Paizo anymore - but there are a few of the old Dragon magazines that have elven, dwarven, and halflings lexicons. Some of them also have name generators with word lists. I'll go through my "archives" and see if I can find which ones they are.
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I don't know if you have access to them - or if they even still sell them here on Paizo anymore - but there are a few of the old Dragon magazines that have elven, dwarven, and halflings lexicons. Some of them also have name generators with word lists. I'll go through my "archives" and see if I can find which ones they are.
You're welcome. ;)
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Well, Bjorn, the thing you're disparaging might be exactly what one of the above people wants for their game. Fortunately, you aren't playing in their game and they aren't playing in yours, so you don't have to worry about them being "annoying in the extreme."
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Generally, from an editing standpoint, we're pretty careful about in-world languages, and usually remove examples of them when they crop up.
Constructed languages take time to do right, and if you ever decide to do one, you don't want to have to deal with a bunch of random made-up words that weren't designed with any sort of thought about what the phonology or morphology of the language are supposed to be (which, given the number of different freelancers we use, even if we had guidelines for in-world language use, it would likely be crazy chaotic), because now you have to go back and try to retrofit a structure to randomly-designed examples. (It's probably to avoid this issue that Tolkien actually created Proto-Elvish so he could make sure that the different Elvish languages were not only internally consistent, but made sense in relation to one another.)
(Which actually sounds kinda fun, except if you're crunched for time.) </linguistics geek>
So, I have no idea whether we'll ever do anything with the languages of Golarion, but unless and until there's a plan in place for that, I think the practice will continue to be to usually avoid giving examples of in-world languages to leave that space open in case we want to use it in the future.
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(Which actually sounds kinda fun, except if you're crunched for time.) </linguistics geek>
Yes to both.
From a linguistics geek standpoint, vocabulary lists are (to me) the least interesting part of a language, and they're surprisingly not useful, since they don't actually say anything about how the vocabulary are put together.
The truly interesting bit are the bits that don't fit comfortably into two columns -- for example, the different groups that you get (what do you mean, "women, fire, and dangerous things" are all one semantic category?) or the way that different language will divide the world -- Japanese has the same word for "to wear" and "to put on," but it's got, like, six different actual words depending upon what the actual bit of clothing is. Why do I count pencils differently from pieces of paper, but cups of coffee the same way I count octopuses -- octopi -- things with tentacles? Are telephone calls really "long skinny things"?
That's exactly the sort of thing you can't put into a vocabulary list.....
And I agree with Jessica that this kind of task isn't worth doing badly.
And there is cultural impact on the language to consider.
I read an article on A Song of Ice and Fire, where Martin was explaining that in Dolthraki a lot of verbs are variations of "ride," because their culture is horse based.
So, a literal translation of something might not make sense.
And of course there are idioms in each language. (You aren't cutting anything when you "cut off the lights").
Generally, from an editing standpoint, we're pretty careful about in-world languages, and usually remove examples of them when they crop up.
Constructed languages take time to do right, and if you ever decide to do one, you don't want to have to deal with a bunch of random made-up words that weren't designed with any sort of thought about what the phonology or morphology of the language are supposed to be (which, given the number of different freelancers we use, even if we had guidelines for in-world language use, it would likely be crazy chaotic), because now you have to go back and try to retrofit a structure to randomly-designed examples. (It's probably to avoid this issue that Tolkien actually created Proto-Elvish so he could make sure that the different Elvish languages were not only internally consistent, but made sense in relation to one another.)
(Which actually sounds kinda fun, except if you're crunched for time.) </linguistics geek>
So, I have no idea whether we'll ever do anything with the languages of Golarion, but unless and until there's a plan in place for that, I think the practice will continue to be to usually avoid giving examples of in-world languages to leave that space open in case we want to use it in the future.
Nothing against Lord Reynolds' contributions to Dragon Magazine ('cause really, those are some of my go to word generation systems), but have you seen the D66 language system from 1e Traveller Alien Modules? It might be more trouble than it's worth to do for the many, many Golarion languages, but it's an interesting random generation system at the very least.
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As my original post would indicate I do think it would be worth the investment for Paizo to develop and market quality language sourcebooks. I would imagine that both players and GMs would be eager to get their hands on them. I think it would be a "shut up and take my money!" senario.
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They way I see it all RPG rules and sourcebooks are big effing textbooks that you must study to use with maybe a dozen other people.
Nothing against Lord Reynolds' contributions to Dragon Magazine ('cause really, those are some of my go to word generation systems), but have you seen the D66 language system from 1e Traveller Alien Modules? It might be more trouble than it's worth to do for the many, many Golarion languages, but it's an interesting random generation system at the very least.Generally, from an editing standpoint, we're pretty careful about in-world languages, and usually remove examples of them when they crop up.
Constructed languages take time to do right, and if you ever decide to do one, you don't want to have to deal with a bunch of random made-up words that weren't designed with any sort of thought about what the phonology or morphology of the language are supposed to be (which, given the number of different freelancers we use, even if we had guidelines for in-world language use, it would likely be crazy chaotic), because now you have to go back and try to retrofit a structure to randomly-designed examples. (It's probably to avoid this issue that Tolkien actually created Proto-Elvish so he could make sure that the different Elvish languages were not only internally consistent, but made sense in relation to one another.)
(Which actually sounds kinda fun, except if you're crunched for time.) </linguistics geek>
So, I have no idea whether we'll ever do anything with the languages of Golarion, but unless and until there's a plan in place for that, I think the practice will continue to be to usually avoid giving examples of in-world languages to leave that space open in case we want to use it in the future.
That actually sounds like it would make the problem I'm talking about worse. Randomly-generated vocabulary is exactly the issue I was talking about.
What I'd love is a program in which you input linguistic roots for your created language, and then input the rules for the language's morphology, and the program then generates a lexicon for you.
EDIT: I have no idea what in this post made me a smurf.
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From a linguistics geek standpoint, vocabulary lists are (to me) the least interesting part of a language, and they're surprisingly not useful, since they don't actually say anything about how the vocabulary are put together.
I agree with that for some languages -- on the other hand, one of the reasons I love Semitic languages is the root structure that makes relationships between words immediately visible in a way that's not always obvious in other languages. You have to dig pretty far back etymologically to find out that "biology" (from Greek biotos) and "vital" (from Latin vita) are probably derived from the same root. If you already speak English, it's like, ok, sure, that makes sense, they're both having to do with life. But if you're learning English, there are no cues that these words are related. It's not exactly shocking, given that English is such a crazy quilt of different languages, but it is sometimes frustratingly opaque.
Whereas in Hebrew, as soon as you know about the root structure, you can look at the word shalom, and know that it's related to when you ask someone how they are (ma shlomcha?, to being perfect (mushlam), to completing things (lehashlim, to wholeness (shalem), and so on. You can look at the names Absalom, Salome, and Solomon and know that they're related to the ideas of peace and wholeness. It's all very elegant, and very transparent. You can even look at Arabic and see that same S-L-M root reflected there -- Islam, Muslim, salam, taslim -- and immediately have some sense that those words are connected and some sense of their meaning.
So in that sense, I find even word lists for some languages really interesting, if the language has that sort of root structure.
But yes, I agree with you that the words and relationships that don't fit into expected patterns are often the most fascinating, and reveal really interesting attitudes and ways of thinking built into the language.
Why on earth does "morphology" make one a smurf? :-o
Nothing against Lord Reynolds' contributions to Dragon Magazine ('cause really, those are some of my go to word generation systems), but have you seen the D66 language system from 1e Traveller Alien Modules? It might be more trouble than it's worth to do for the many, many Golarion languages, but it's an interesting random generation system at the very least.Generally, from an editing standpoint, we're pretty careful about in-world languages, and usually remove examples of them when they crop up.
Constructed languages take time to do right, and if you ever decide to do one, you don't want to have to deal with a bunch of random made-up words that weren't designed with any sort of thought about what the phonology or morphology of the language are supposed to be (which, given the number of different freelancers we use, even if we had guidelines for in-world language use, it would likely be crazy chaotic), because now you have to go back and try to retrofit a structure to randomly-designed examples. (It's probably to avoid this issue that Tolkien actually created Proto-Elvish so he could make sure that the different Elvish languages were not only internally consistent, but made sense in relation to one another.)
(Which actually sounds kinda fun, except if you're crunched for time.) </linguistics geek>
So, I have no idea whether we'll ever do anything with the languages of Golarion, but unless and until there's a plan in place for that, I think the practice will continue to be to usually avoid giving examples of in-world languages to leave that space open in case we want to use it in the future.
That actually sounds like it would make the problem I'm talking about worse. Randomly-generated vocabulary is exactly the issue I was talking about.
What I'd love is a program in which you input linguistic roots for your created language, and then input the rules for the language's morphology, and the program then generates a...
It was exactly that sort of system, just with dice and a pencil cause it was back in the dark ages. First you generated the number of syllables (Traveller used only d6s), then figured out the structure of said syllables in terms of vowels and consonants, then rolled on one of six tables each for consonants that began a syllable, vowels and syllable ending consonants. Each of the alien races (well, the ones with a spoken language) had its own morphology within the system. A program would be awesome though, because generating more than three words at a time got a bit tedious.
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Ah, linguistic anomalies! I distinctly remember one conversation I had GMing a science fiction campaign that played with that.
.
.
.
.
.
Hailing frequency activated. Incoming message.
"On screen."
A single floating cube appeared. The face of the cube displayed a smiling woman's mouth. It spoke, "Welcome to The Hive. Mother is part of us all. You are the rogue human team. Please come aboard."
The Captain scowled, concerned. "How do you know who we are?"
"Oh, no, keep smiling. It's good for you."
Deeply worried, he put on a false grin as he replied, "I'll ask again, how do you know who we are?"
"We know all about you, Captain Janis. Humanity is a Class 3 Proscribed Race. We met with Earth and now humanity is--"
Message from translation software. The word just used does not correspond to a single term in your language. Please consider the context and choose from the following closest analogs:
A) Recognized
B) Cataloged
C) Conquered
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It was exactly that sort of system, just with dice and a pencil cause it was back in the dark ages. First you generated the number of syllables (Traveller used only d6s), then figured out the structure of said syllables in terms of vowels and consonants, then rolled on one of six tables each for consonants that began a syllable, vowels and syllable ending consonants. Each of the alien races (well, the ones with a spoken language) had its own morphology within the system. A program would be awesome though, because generating more than three words at a time got a bit tedious.
That actually sounds like it would make the problem I'm talking about worse. Randomly-generated vocabulary is exactly the issue I was talking about.
What I'd love is a program in which you input linguistic roots for your created language, and then input the rules for the language's morphology, and the program then generates a lexicon for you.
Er, I don't think you understood Ms. Price's wish list. I'm familiar with the Traveller system, and it didn't even do anything semantic. It just generated a set of random pronounceable syllables (based on unrealistically impoverished phonetics).
The issue is that words that are related in meaning should be related in underlying form in some way -- that's why we have pairs like happy and unhappy in English. Given a few hundred years of language drift, we'll end up with some really strange associations that speak to the history of the culture. (Did you know that royal and regal are synonyms? Did you know that loyal and legal aren't, but that they used to be?) (Do you know what the similarity is between a street urchin and a sea urchin?)
And part of what makes language fascinating to language geeks is that the relationships that we-as-English-speakers expect to see are often absent, and what's there instead is another relationship that we hadn't thought of, but that makes us understand everything a little bit better. (Oh, of course "biology" and "vital" are related, because the "b" is pronounced "v" in Greek, and that's a common sound shift. So naturally *"[bv]it" means alive.)
So what Jessica wants is something that will take a root like *"briv" (which means "milk" in proto-Martian) and produce a whole bunch of words related to milk --- which might include words like "milk" or "cream," but might also include words like "food" or "mother" or "cow" or even "chalk."
Why Jessica Doesn't Like Poor Vocabulary Lists
Original title, "Omnilingual," by H. Beam Piper.
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While Paizo editing seems to disuade the use of real world languages, in my development of the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) by Rite Publishing, I've relied on Japanese as the source for all personal names, place names, archetype names, and general vocabulary. If samurai, geisha, kensai (misspelling, should be kensei), katana, wakizashi, kappa, tengu, etc. can all be used and accepted for Japanese specific weapons, monsters and other stuff pertaining to Minkai or other Japan-influenced concepts in Pathfinder, I see absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to use Japanese for all other things.
I do have to say, I find it very strange and cumbersome to use a mix of real Japanese and made up, sounds like Japanese words - I find it very much confusing, and why that isn't a path I choose to use in Kaidan.
I even introduce new Japanese words, within some of my publications as a form of education, and a way for GMs and players to become more immersive in the setting. In my Haiku of Horror: Autumn Moon Bath House, for example, I identify the differing words to describe a bath house that is hot spring fed versus those with heated water via a furnace, and introduce the Japanese words for bath, toilet, floor mat, etc.
In both Way of the Samurai and Way of the Yakuza, there are naming guides that use actual Japanese words commonly used to build place/family names, and for yakuza gang names like "Red Snake" that combine a Japanese adjective with a Japanese noun.
Even in the appendix of the 3 modules of the Curse of the Golden Spear trilogy, I even include a pronunciation guide.
Kaidan, itself, is not just a name, but a description of the setting, meaning "ghost story" since Kaidan is a very haunted realm.
I think the it feels more authentic sticking to actual Japanese words for anything specific to the setting.
And though I am not the editor for Kaidan books, I often find myself correcting Japanese word use during page layout, such as plural - Japanese don't use plural, so when I encounter "samurais", I correct that to "samurai", and the same for all other pluralcized words that shouldn't be.
So what Jessica wants is something that will take a root like *"briv" (which means "milk" in proto-Martian) and produce a whole bunch of words related to milk --- which might include words like "milk" or "cream," but might also include words like "food" or "mother" or "cow" or even "chalk."
Yes! Exactly!
I want a program where I create the rules for the language's phonology (and for shifts over time, like b -> v or d -> th), and for its morphology (how plurals work, how nouns and their adjectival forms are related, etc.).
And then I input roots, and it builds a lexicon.
Also, Orfamay, thank you for that link -- I hadn't read it, and it looks excellent. :D
I don't have a horse in this race because I don't personally care to inject fake language content into my games but I would like to point out something from the viewpoint of such a neutral party:
This sucks.
Let me explain what, and why. See, for linguists, the standpoint "this is only worth doing if it's done right" is utterly correct. For the vast majority of people who can't tell a glottal stop from someone coughing up a hairball, this looks not terribly unlike elitism. No, I don't mean to insult anyone, but let's look at this with perspective.
Nobody suggests ceasing publication of maps of dungeons because the engineering isn't portrayed accurately for the materials present. Nobody suggests ceasing publication of wilderness adventures because the ecology and botany are presented less-than-accurately. As it happens, customers snap up fantastic, unrealistic-but-fun material in copious quantities, happily unaware - and unconcerned - that the material makes no darned sense.
So when I read the direction this thread has taken, it's kind of a bummer because the very, very few people that would recognize a Languages of Golarion product wasn't real-world sensible would be denying the vast majority of people who Just Don't Care their goodies.
TL;DR:
Don't forget the Rule of Cool, folks.
I don't have a horse in this race because I don't personally care to inject fake language content into my games but I would like to point out something from the viewpoint of such a neutral party:
This sucks.
Let me explain what, and why. See, for linguists, the standpoint "this is only worth doing if it's done right" is utterly correct. For the vast majority of people who can't tell a glottal stop from someone coughing up a hairball, this looks not terribly unlike elitism. No, I don't mean to insult anyone, but let's look at this with perspective.
Nobody suggests ceasing publication of maps of dungeons because the engineering isn't portrayed accurately for the materials present. Nobody suggests ceasing publication of wilderness adventures because the ecology and botany are presented less-than-accurately. As it happens, customers snap up fantastic, unrealistic-but-fun material in copious quantities, happily unaware - and unconcerned - that the material makes no darned sense.
So when I read the direction this thread has taken, it's kind of a bummer because the very, very few people that would recognize a Languages of Golarion product wasn't real-world sensible would be denying the vast majority of people who Just Don't Care their goodies.
TL;DR:
Don't forget the Rule of Cool, folks.
Actually, I think for everyone here, the standpoint of "this is only worth doing if it's done right" (or at least "if we've done our best to do it right") is correct. We just have different values for what constitutes "done right."
My idea for what constitutes "done right" with constructed languages is probably different from those of many of the other people on the production staff, because not everyone's interests are in the same areas.
However, I think one thing we can all get together on is that we're going to try to avoid doing it in ways that are half-assed or accidental.
A different approach to a hypothetical Languages of Golarion is not to make actual languages but describe language families, their origin, development, differentiation and spread. Include rules for how to use Linguistics to understand related dialects and languages. [...] Include some basic, abstract aspects like "language family X has very few colors, from 2 to 4" or "language family Y has developed in a culture where sons-in-law must learn hundreds of synonyms for everyday words because words starting with the same sound as his mother-in-law cannot be used in her presence"
This I could get behind! It would be far less likely to create error-traps, and gives people a chance to explore all the crazy traits languages can exhibit, like the ones you mentioned—and how they could impact people's understanding of each other.
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Well, it's not even just that Tolkien set the bar high -- it's that actually working these things out results in a better user experience. It may look like a bunch of hair-splitting or "elitism" if people are talking about how the sausage gets made, but what it means for the end result is that it's something that players can use.
Let's say that we have a bunch of terms in Kelish that all came via different people and without any sort of guidelines about how the language is constructed.
So, you have ashtinna, which you're told means "lady." You also get lianhaba, which you're told is a greeting. You also have qithal, which means "well", and tash, which means "horse", and -- what's this? -- tashi, which means "horses". But you also have er which means "city" and erim which means "cities." And sharesh which means "waters." And malah, which means "mother."
And now you walk into a tavern in Qadira. There are a bunch of gorgeous Qadiran women hanging out there, and you're a gentleman or lady who never misses a chance to flirt with a gorgeous woman.
What do you say to them?
...
Yeah, I got nothing.
_________________________________________
Instead of what's above, let's imagine that we've made sure, in our materials, to give you the following info.
ashtinna - lady
qitha - well
Er-Qithat - City of Wells
erim - cities
tash - horse
Ashti-Tashim - Lord of Horses
sharat - waters
mala - mother
lianhabar - hello
What do you say to the Qadiran women?
Because we've given you several nouns that end in -a, and we've given you one of them in both singular and plural form (qitha, qithat), and we've given you another plural noun ending in a similar way (-at).
And now you can look at the plurals qithat and sharat, and guess that the plural of ashtinna is ashtinnat.
So, now we haven't given you a random list of words, and confined you to just using those terms.
By making sure that there are patterns, and that those patterns are simple and easy to see, and that we give you examples that show those patterns, we've given you a tool. You aren't limited to parroting only the words we've given you -- you can figure out how to say things that we haven't told you.
So, it might look like a lot of esoteric, elitist time-wasting if you're looking at the process of figuring out how to do it in a way that's systematic, and that builds a solid framework for expansion, but it's the difference between having results that can't really grow into anything more, and results that are both seeds for better worldbuilding on our side, and player empowerment on our audience's.
(None of which is to say that we're likely to build out actual languages for Golarion -- I have no idea on that, honestly. But if we do, I very much want to make sure that what we're giving people is a tool for making their characters and stories and settings richer and not just some random words.)
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So what Jessica wants is something that will take a root like *"briv" (which means "milk" in proto-Martian) and produce a whole bunch of words related to milk --- which might include words like "milk" or "cream," but might also include words like "food" or "mother" or "cow" or even "chalk."Yes! Exactly!
I want a program where I create the rules for the language's phonology (and for shifts over time, like b -> v or d -> th), and for its morphology (how plurals work, how nouns and their adjectival forms are related, etc.).
And then I input roots, and it builds a lexicon.
Also, Orfamay, thank you for that link -- I hadn't read it, and it looks excellent. :D
Have you (or anyone interested) looked at the books by Mark Rosenfelder? Particularly his The Language Construction Kit (LCK) & The Conlanger's Lexipedia? They're both really useful if one's into conlanging (or just understanding how languages work - in an accessible way).
He has a great website (with a very basic overview/ early draft of the material covered in the LCK itself). There're also a few programs he's written that deal with sound changes (input the changes, & the program gives you the altered lexicon of your conlang), as well as lexicon generation according to the phonological rules of a specific conlang (or at least, there was).
Here's the link:
Mark Rosenfelder's Metaverse
I believe that he's done some work in creating in-world conlangs for games before, but I don't know the details...
Because conlanging is FUN! :D
Carry on.
--C.
I hadn't! This is supercool.
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Nobody suggests ceasing publication of maps of dungeons because the engineering isn't portrayed accurately for the materials present. Nobody suggests ceasing publication of wilderness adventures because the ecology and botany are presented less-than-accurately. As it happens, customers snap up fantastic, unrealistic-but-fun material in copious quantities, happily unaware - and unconcerned - that the material makes no darned sense.
There is one core difference, in that you can't make an adventure in a dungeon without describing the dungeon. You can make an adventure set in a foreign land without working out the foreign language.
And frankly, physics and ecology already needs to be set aside from suspension of disbelief in the game because otherwise things like Giants being able to walk and Dragons being able to fly just don't work.
Or, rather, look at it this way: Letting individual authors inject words and syntax one at a time is a recipe for a disjointed mess that doesn't sound like a real language (because Author A used Welsh sounds for his elvish words and Author B used Hebrew, and Author C just made up words that sounded cool.) And not just to linguists: it just plain creates continuity traps. It's easier to stay away from it entirely unless a complete job can be done.
And if you're creating a complete language primer (as the OP requested) then it should appeal to linguists: they're the primary market for people to enjoy and use such a product. It would be like publishing the 'Golarion Guide to Metallurgy' without talking to people who actually know how to alloy metals.
Making a minor tangent here, but does anyone know offhand if any of the various Golarion words (or any linguistic origins) from all the various Pathfinder products have been compiled together at all? I might take a whack at it myself if not, just out of curiosity and a shared interest in linguistics (although I hardly have a complete library of Paizo products).
As another thought (following from my realization of my incomplete collection), maybe a Google doc could be set up so that we could collectively compile and source all such words?
Modules Overlord
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Also, I apparently don't have the issue but I reeaallly think that Dragon #251 has the Elf name generator.
It does. That was my first published, paid game writing work, as it happens.
I also did (in Dragon) name generators for dwarves, gnomes & halflings, drow, dragons, and some under dark races. The series was called "By Any Other Name."
I also did the dragon language article, and articles on random names for inns, taverns, and businesses.
I loved writing those. :)
Oh, and I believe this is relevant.
And if you're creating a complete language primer (as the OP requested) then it should appeal to linguists: they're the primary market for people to enjoy and use such a product.
Absolutely nothing but respect to everyone else who replied to me, but other than this, I'm still hearing the same thing; "sorry non-logophiles, you can't have book on languages that's good enough for you unless it's good enough for us."
Frankly I disagree with the statement but it's the strongest one that's penetrated my thick skull. I'm willing to accept that - at least within this thread - I'm out-voted, which is okay given I'm not a huge fan of the topic to start with, but wanted to make sure the views of the normal consumer were considered. Honestly, I suspect that a book with say... 150 common words (or Common words, if you will), given an Elven, Orcish, Dwarven etc "feel", would sell well. Most GMs probably would use such a thing to sprinkle a word or ten here or there to bring an ethnic NPC to life. Most PCs might pick up a couple dozen words to give their elf wizard some cute key phrases for when they drop into their native tongue under stress. I believe basically nobody would actually use a Languages of Golarion (or Tongues of Golarion if you prefer) extensively. Virtually nobody would actually treat these as full-blown languages to be spoken at the table, fluently, by characters.
Really, anyone who's likely to do so is probably already speaking Klingon half of the time.
Anyway, as I said, this is all with respect, but disagreement. I'm comfortable that I've conveyed my viewpoint, so won't interfere any longer. Should such a book never happen, or eventually happen and be a linguistically realistic book, I can live with either of those.
Oh, and I believe this is relevant.
<Cough> Dune. <Cough>
I get the humour, and in principle agree. On the other hand, fiction is a funny thing. Without made-up terms, much of the best space-opera novels would lose half of their immersion. Without made-up terms, the cyberpunk genre would be almost pointless. There's a fine line between Star Trek technobabble and a sprinkle of cultural differences.
I'll tell you, Steven Brust's latest novel, The Incrementalists has a bunch of made-up words, words used in completely unfamiliar contexts, and what look to be portmanteaus and it wouldn't be half the genius it is without them. If you're familiar with Brust's works, you already know he's very, very careful with his writing.
Made up words are a tool. Many hack authors exuberantly wield that tool inexpertly, thinking it will help their project. Similarly, many brilliant authors use the tool properly, sometimes extensively, and to great effect. It's almost like... crap authors are crap authors no matter what.
So, haha only... it depends.
To echo the above, I know the first time I ever read Neuromancer, I was thrown by a lot of the words there, but- over time- so many of them have either become lingua franca or else our culture has developed such that the frame of reference to unrecognizable terms is enough to place them into context, that a reread nowadays has a whole new level of relevance to me than it once did.
So there is a fine line to be drawn, for sure.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Anguish, Gary Gygax's Extraordinary Book of Names has some random fantasy name generator tables that might work for what you want. The fantasy name tables are organized by culture, so you have fairy/elf-type names, Doughty & Homely (dwarf-type) names, etc. You could pretty easily use those tables to generate words other than names. It also has thorough lists of names from real-world cultures. You can probably find it for sale some other place than that overpriced Amazon listing. It's a great resource--I use it basically every campaign I run or play in.
Agreed on the elitism point. I understand the linguistic argument, and I just don't care. Having all that detail is simply unnecessary for what most people are interested in using the snippets of language for.
Most people just want to have something to help name a character or place, and the complex syntax rules you're describing simply aren't necessary for that. The players who want to go a bit beyond that want to be able to swear or otherwise exclaim in a language to help add verisimilitude to their character. Again, a few brief phrases for each language would be more than sufficient for this. It wouldn't require a lot of work, it wouldn't be a travesty of Verner's law or whatever, and it would add a great deal to the roleplaying experience of a lot of players.*
And frankly, demanding this level of realism out of fantasy is absurd, and we only do it because the founder of modern fantasy happened to be a linguist. He was also an appalling historian to judge by his timeline, which is so ludicrously long it rips me out of the story every time it comes up. Golarion has the exact same problem, as does Faerun and Westeros. Stupidly long timelines. But I'm a historian. I'm also a gamer and a lover of fantasy, so I get over it. The linguists out there can get over their hangups too and let everyone else have fun.
*The Ravenloft Gazetteers did this perfectly - a small selection of key words of phrases likely to be used in each domain based on the kinds of adventures you were likely to play there. Each was also based on a real world language, so if you really wanted more it was pretty easy to figure out which real-world language was being used as a base and work from there. As additional domains using the same language came up, more terms were added that were thematically appropriate to that domain.
S morph? Does that make me a smurf? EDIT: It does, and I'm so happy right now
It's not about "realism," Azazyll -- it's about quality.
Even assuming you don't want to be able to use the language examples to figure out how to say things in that language, figuring this stuff out is important for making sure that Elven is recognizable as Elven, that Varisian and Kelish reliably sound different.
I'm not familiar with Ravenloft's languages, but from what you say, it sounds like the reasons that it worked was because it hewed pretty close to existing languages. Which is already something that involves more thought than just randomly making up cool-sounding words.
You see the end result and go "Oh, okay, we got a few words for me to use." You don't see the thought process that went into it.
But in any case, as I've said, while in-world language stuff could be something we do down the road, it's not on the docket for any time in the near future, and I don't think it's something we'd do randomly or half-assedly.
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Also, I apparently don't have the issue but I reeaallly think that Dragon #251 has the Elf name generator.It does. That was my first published, paid game writing work, as it happens.
I also did (in Dragon) name generators for dwarves, gnomes & halflings, drow, dragons, and some under dark races. The series was called "By Any Other Name."
I also did the dragon language article, and articles on random names for inns, taverns, and businesses.I loved writing those. :)
They were always really helpful! Its funny, as I've always had a fixation for halflings and I always remembered your name as "the guy who wrote the halfling name generator." >_> My apologies.
It's not about "realism," Azazyll -- it's about quality.
Even assuming you don't want to be able to use the language examples to figure out how to say things in that language, figuring this stuff out is important for making sure that Elven is recognizable as Elven, that Varisian and Kelish reliably sound different.
I'm not familiar with Ravenloft's languages, but from what you say, it sounds like the reasons that it worked was because it hewed pretty close to existing languages. Which is already something that involves more thought than just randomly making up cool-sounding words.
You see the end result and go "Oh, okay, we got a few words for me to use." You don't see the thought process that went into it.
But in any case, as I've said, while in-world language stuff could be something we do down the road, it's not on the docket for any time in the near future, and I don't think it's something we'd do randomly or half-assedly.
There are plenty of places where quality is lost for ease of use and verisimilitude in Golarion, and in every other fantasy setting I've ever seen. The broad, clear borders between regions that seldom move. The simplistic and reduced number of ethnicities (or even the simple and at times ethically problematic use of multiple races). The aforementioned ludicrously overextended timelines (ten thousand years of recorded history? Really? The Pyramids and Gilgamesh are less than five thousand). The simplified political relationships (laughable even in Game of Thrones). The necessarily-brief (but therefore shallow) portrayals of religions, even in the most detailed of fantasies that bother to deal with this touchy subject (as Tolkien did not). Or even the simple fact that there are so few languages and dialects to begin with in any particular setting.
You've chosen a particular point to draw the line on quality. I assume from the fact that you clearly have a deep and impressive grasp of linguistics that it's because you are particularly familiar with it. But the truth is that fantasy, or any fiction, can only ever be a pale imitation of reality, easily pulled apart on closer inspection. Tolkien dedicated most of his life to the languages of Middle Earth and only managed to create passable versions of two. And that was profoundly impressive.
I don't mean to come across as Trollish. This is honestly something which bothers me, as a person trying to balance loving fantasy/science fiction with six years of graduate school in medieval history. Trying to learn to enjoy things that mimic stuff I know way too much about is a struggle. But I refuse to stop re-watching Braveheart ;)
You're talking about spectrums (how broad are the descriptions of religions, how complex are the political relationships, etc.), and I'm talking about a binary (randomly generated examples of languages, vs. predetermining aspects of the language to ensure quality and consistency). So it's not really a good comparison.
There are plenty of places where quality is lost for ease of use and verisimilitude in Golarion, and in every other fantasy setting I've ever seen. The broad, clear borders between regions that seldom move. The simplistic and reduced number of ethnicities (or even the simple and at times ethically problematic use of multiple races). The aforementioned ludicrously overextended timelines (ten thousand years of recorded history? Really? The Pyramids and Gilgamesh are less than five thousand). The simplified political relationships (laughable even in Game of Thrones). The necessarily-brief (but therefore shallow) portrayals of religions, even in the most detailed of fantasies that bother to deal with this touchy subject (as Tolkien did not). Or even the simple fact that there are so few languages and dialects to begin with in any particular setting.
Well, if it's a bad vocabulary list you want, I am happy to provide one. Here are the 850 words of Basic English (Ogden, 1930) together with their algorithmically generated equivalents in Other-people-speak (actually, Vilani, using what I assume to be the old Traveller rules) which looks kind of Dwarven to me.
a,luumi
able,iila
about,lasaam
account,rumer
acid,kishgi
across,agi
act,gilik
addition,khuka
adjustment,daarsu
advertisement,giima
after,enash
again,ikha
against,gugin
agreement,shilii
air,rirkuu
all,kusi
almost,kiila
among,kakir
amount,shulum
amusement,kimu
and,zigki
angle,zuumur
angry,khigig
animal,nurshin
answer,mengi
ant,genii
any,shuli
apparatus,igi
apple,gama
approval,gashig
arch,aashuun
argument,udir
arm,udu
army,durli
art,eshur
as,ashig
at,agur
attack,kakhush
attempt,khikhi
attention,ukush
attraction,giigar
authority,asii
automatic,gisha
awake,naarda
baby,reki
back,ushar
bad,gamda
bag,ega
balance,shugi
ball,ashuum
band,igu
base,kali
basin,midu
basket,gedum
bath,ada
be,kursim
beautiful,idaa
because,kakaa
bed,uga
bee,ishar
before,kassham
behaviour,aashu
belief,musdu
bell,muumu
bent,gushur
berry,gemgu
between,aze
bird,magga
birth,gedaa
bit,mimi
bite,urii
bitter,shigak
black,kishin
blade,sirlek
blood,igur
blow,iisha
blue,diikir
board,shama
boat,kheka
body,akun
boiling,gikhush
bone,kadu
book,igam
boot,ugi
bottle,diimgar
box,nushgar
boy,kakgush
brain,gamuu
brake,simun
branch,ikar
brass,mugaak
bread,lamir
breath,azu
brick,imuug
bridge,uugaa
bright,girguug
broken,aagi
brother,imu
brown,uli
brush,gena
bucket,iidi
building,ukuu
bulb,uulu
burn,zakhim
burst,page
business,kaki
but,ala
butter,dunshe
button,gamza
by,eshin
cake,diidar
camera,likha
canvas,kupan
card,kugeg
care,daku
carriage,ekag
cart,ulir
cat,ikhi
cause,maashmu
certain,dakii
chain,ini
chalk,kuugi
chance,nuke
change,ukhiir
cheap,kidiik
cheese,kagak
chemical,iiki
chest,rigim
chief,esi
chin,shakhim
church,shikhuu
circle,shiisa
clean,uki
clear,gagga
clock,asash
cloth,uzu
cloud,ida
coal,dankhaa
coat,piissha
cold,madi
collar,usa
colour,unuu
comb,pude
come,ushis
comfort,kari
committee,ima
common,kiimliir
company,egar
comparison,pine
competition,amam
complete,ame
complex,guugam
condition,gerkuu
connection,ulaa
conscious,magis
control,suki
cook,lume
copper,karkhi
copy,ake
cord,lala
cork,dikun
cotton,dashdash
cough,umur
country,shishuuk
cover,ishik
cow,pigdu
crack,kapir
credit,ashe
crime,unish
cruel,eki
crush,kumii
cry,khenir
cup,iika
cup,salim
current,ugu
curtain,ruukaa
curve,shanar
cushion,khukash
damage,gadir
danger,adi
dark,akhii
daughter,nadi
day,aga
dead,imig
dear,ilir
death,shakdan
debt,isar
decision,dukir
deep,rinem
degree,shukir
delicate,ashash
dependent,gigar
design,esa
desire,izii
destruction,dukash
detail,shimkash
development,shiimgu
different,dadim
digestion,gekli
direction,ilu
dirty,khukim
discovery,shushash
discussion,gashii
disease,kaskhu
disgust,gikii
distance,buguu
distribution,khurki
division,kirkhu
do,sakaa
dog,aduug
door,ugir
doubt,miguur
down,dagkas
drain,bali
drawer,gikda
dress,iike
drink,lasa
driving,iku
drop,gurliim
dry,gishii
dust,rigum
ear,ikis
early,ashir
earth,dagu
east,ama
edge,ile
education,diikar
effect,agar
egg,adu
elastic,agam
electric,alam
end,miksu
engine,penir
enough,aaki
equal,khidum
error,shakhaa
even,akuu
event,kerga
ever,keda
every,lislar
example,lushshi
exchange,degu
existence,ale
expansion,maka
experience,basen
expert,namkar
eye,biiga
face,sarmen
fact,gakug
fall,khuunzu
false,geshduu
family,uguush
far,iga
farm,shidir
fat,lugi
father,rada
fear,udi
feather,numla
feeble,kupek
feeling,amaa
female,mali
fertile,nigi
fiction,neki
field,aguk
fight,shanir
finger,neshgu
fire,ikhag
first,khummur
fish,kelii
fixed,amir
flag,gipir
flame,bershuur
flat,naakur
flight,ishiig
floor,ukhii
flower,guba
fly,galag
fold,khemu
food,simkii
foolish,khaki
foot,sina
for,ganku
force,kakhi
fork,ani
form,lakur
forward,guna
fowl,naaduu
frame,dagler
free,kaba
frequent,lermi
friend,kushi
from,daka
front,iza
fruit,ekhaas
full,dashi
future,shada
garden,agii
general,anesh
get,agir
girl,lamur
give,liiga
glass,leshir
glove,dardu
go,ikash
goat,laabuk
gold,uma
good,khunak
government,zumnir
grain,semi
grass,iibik
great,kikgar
green,daashzaak
grey,shishu
grip,shuka
group,ashaa
growth,kagi
guide,iimi
gun,khiimum
hair,akhi
hammer,iimii
hand,khirgam
hanging,kusiim
happy,leshi
harbour,dushi
hard,dugur
harmony,ikuu
hat,damshiim
hate,liliir
have,shuugshu
he,kani
head,gikhe
healthy,kiri
hear,gima
hearing,ikum
heart,shuugar
heat,mimu
help,mikha
high,kirgaa
history,mazi
hole,lakum
hollow,imik
hook,lugaa
hope,imuus
horn,girkham
horse,kadir
hospital,lage
hour,shidan
house,dassin
how,ekash
humour,shegkur
I,luumlar
ice,ekhim
idea,seku
if,gudi
ill,shunan
important,gaarkhu
impulse,guda
in,ika
increase,gigna
industry,rirma
ink,iizi
insect,ikir
instrument,giimpuu
insurance,sheguk
interest,khigu
invention,khabe
iron,ide
island,isu
jelly,aaguum
jewel,ruku
join,dili
journey,margu
judge,zulum
jump,isi
keep,kakuk
kettle,shungam
key,ziisha
kick,shukgu
kind,sani
kiss,nirki
knee,ruma
knife,gukuk
knot,iki
knowledge,lali
land,masdi
language,kaaker
last,kuurkhi
late,miku
laugh,miiluu
law,ela
lead,karen
leaf,geshshir
learning,ikhim
leather,udam
left,ikhe
leg,kanu
let,idi
letter,dakum
level,gana
library,iimaar
lift,miishur
light,shuubir
like,gimdak
limit,banu
line,khashiir
linen,gikun
lip,gubir
liquid,khuumam
list,migi
little,aka
living,lusha
lock,maga
long,musa
look,nikhi
loose,kiki
loss,gakham
loud,imii
love,gimku
low,zurdaa
machine,liishi
make,khushii
male,gegu
man,mishgin
manager,iidiir
map,sanuu
mark,geshdii
market,khikha
married,ikaak
mass,mamish
match,zigu
material,kashki
may,akhe
meal,maknu
measure,dakhii
meat,nakhu
medical,lagik
meeting,punguu
memory,mesha
metal,khekhaa
middle,gali
military,adaag
milk,nukhin
mind,marak
mine,dugesh
minute,ligi
mist,igar
mixed,inar
money,singis
monkey,dumkir
month,khiikhak
moon,imen
morning,duunaar
mother,aalek
motion,isha
mountain,danshu
mouth,eker
move,gasas
much,giga
muscle,kimaa
music,burgar
nail,suunar
name,gagii
narrow,duula
nation,aguu
natural,igum
near,idar
necessary,gazum
neck,uzuuk
need,khugaan
needle,mushzi
nerve,kiimge
net,girkhash
new,ipe
news,dukhaa
night,igus
no,ligim
noise,akir
normal,khashik
north,dashshish
nose,maabar
not,aami
note,uula
now,dushe
number,egaa
nut,ubir
observation,age
of,lipa
off,khusha
offer,madag
office,kisiir
oil,zuna
old,aduu
on,aasha
only,gashda
open,lashgi
operation,sarkhim
opinion,saagii
opposite,manlar
or,kadi
orange,aman
order,muukhii
organization,galim
ornament,anik
other,ishir
out,iiku
oven,puku
over,dinlar
owner,kezam
page,liza
pain,diigi
paint,isaa
paper,gagam
parallel,emu
parcel,keshlu
part,kiga
past,kuran
paste,khirkha
payment,bili
peace,uke
pen,khasi
pencil,ruumsu
person,isuur
physical,geshlir
picture,muurmuu
pig,kagir
pin,khishgii
pipe,shala
place,khemaa
plane,kumim
plant,kega
plate,khakhi
play,baaka
please,ugis
pleasure,diseg
plough,mishin
pocket,iina
point,khelin
poison,iinar
polish,elen
political,ligban
poor,uukii
porter,khishkii
position,asiir
possible,asu
pot,budu
potato,aashir
powder,sekhi
power,kaduur
present,khikur
price,balaa
print,miiku
prison,salar
private,kiiliim
probable,shemi
process,adaa
produce,ali
profit,iigur
property,ligak
prose,aku
protest,khiimi
public,kikhu
pull,kuuga
pump,sakhur
punishment,dadiik
purpose,kukhuu
push,ekam
put,kapig
quality,adii
question,gangin
quick,kukshu
quiet,aba
quite,edi
rail,kimlash
rain,anam
range,giika
rat,dikkhi
rate,lilu
ray,shilin
reaction,iishish
reading,isun
ready,uukha
reason,diige
receipt,pamlis
record,damna
red,bami
regret,kukhi
regular,agu
relation,kimli
religion,ikish
representative,ikaa
request,gurda
respect,uumag
responsible,shaakik
rest,khazun
reward,gimlur
rhythm,idu
rice,kapa
right,zikhim
ring,ekhug
river,eda
road,igis
rod,meli
roll,uka
roof,lakha
room,ilaar
root,gakhug
rough,igiig
round,akur
rub,iigi
rule,izaa
run,aguum
sad,umu
safe,piimkiir
sail,share
salt,kagni
same,amuk
sand,khubash
say,kaashgii
scale,kemu
school,kamki
science,rukhi
scissors,shilan
screw,shilem
sea,giki
seat,larku
second,kakim
secret,mishu
secretary,kunu
see,emar
seed,shiimu
seem,kaashkhur
selection,ushi
self,makhas
send,kuluu
sense,aadar
separate,akhuk
serious,siimir
servant,gashak
sex,shidar
shade,shiinzam
shake,kiibi
shame,khugu
sharp,shuugem
sheep,shiiku
shelf,kamir
ship,shakir
shirt,gikka
shock,dimkii
shoe,kudi
short,gakii
shut,gimdun
side,iliim
sign,kushshur
silk,ukan
silver,lugsha
simple,khukiir
sister,gashsha
size,kama
skin,ipa
skirt,ashi
sky,umi
sleep,igaa
slip,gapur
slope,khedi
slow,digun
small,mirge
smash,amur
smell,khana
smile,iikin
smoke,kagush
smooth,kishish
snake,laskik
sneeze,lukku
snow,kuudar
so,ginsa
soap,misem
society,ibi
sock,mala
soft,amii
solid,khigi
some,likhuu
son,lazii
song,sarde
sort,gemsam
sound,shiidum
soup,malu
south,kaada
space,parnu
spade,markam
special,dami
sponge,kada
spoon,pashas
spring,ukum
square,sikkuur
stage,ana
stamp,uza
star,alur
start,gunnu
statement,ladi
station,sisam
steam,lusar
steel,khagur
stem,khinli
step,siker
stick,shamni
sticky,gasu
stiff,daga
still,ikuum
stitch,imaak
stocking,khakha
stomach,ukhig
stone,deka
stop,uuga
store,ami
story,aduk
straight,rimuk
strange,kardu
street,maarki
stretch,ipin
strong,migek
structure,dikhi
substance,khirlu
such,bidur
sudden,miishi
sugar,kalik
suggestion,shishar
summer,khukuk
sun,khesha
support,garma
surprise,ibii
sweet,ule
swim,gishku
system,anar
table,pagaa
tail,isa
take,pashdi
talk,zengu
tall,shaka
taste,rubag
tax,muka
teaching,kela
tendency,sheka
test,nekhu
than,girgu
that,kigir
the,iigik
then,igak
theory,shiku
there,akum
thick,khakim
thin,gabu
thing,zanu
this,khishu
thought,medi
thread,girsam
throat,eke
through,kinkir
through,kimi
thumb,diigan
thunder,agim
ticket,kushsham
tight,egem
till,nirsa
time,pami
tin,adin
tired,lashe
to,durmuug
toe,ishaak
together,ekhu
tomorrow,lipash
tongue,azan
tooth,iiga
top,giishuk
touch,iikha
town,kushla
trade,akar
train,igii
transport,lishlin
tray,kilas
tree,shige
trick,kargir
trouble,ine
trousers,lukhu
true,shesheg
turn,eshu
twist,kadash
umbrella,khiluu
under,alu
unit,ilar
up,khusum
use,guguu
value,shanan
verse,dider
very,udar
vessel,asham
view,shaggus
violent,igas
voice,api
waiting,kiguk
walk,aaku
wall,dikim
war,aziim
warm,garzir
wash,ukii
waste,adis
watch,iseg
water,liishgur
wave,sharpa
wax,shire
way,eka
weather,upir
week,uda
weight,isam
well,shigir
west,uze
wet,ikhii
wheel,landu
when,ukha
where,lele
while,lakan
whip,mabii
whistle,kiirku
white,khashi
who,ekum
why,khiika
wide,khiguu
will,baki
wind,uuba
window,egi
wine,kankha
wing,dagar
winter,khaamesh
wire,imar
wise,baamluk
with,mumish
woman,aguush
wood,shidur
wool,uuza
word,geguk
work,uuka
worm,idir
wound,zaka
writing,degli
wrong,muli
year,mishi
yellow,akhu
yes,sika
yesterday,shaamesh
you,ugii
young,garla
So, for example, this will allow you to tell your friend to "jump across the acid" with isi agi iigik kishgi, but it won't let you say "I jumped across the acid" because there are no verb tense mechanics listed.
If this meets your needs, you owe me $50 which you can deliver at your convenience to the local Red Cross. (How much do you pay per word, Jessica? I suspect this could be rather lucrative....)