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I saw in another thread that there is apparently rumors (truth?) that higher level stuff is either being dropped or not supported or something. I didn't see any specific blog or thread that details this. I have yet to have a character "retire" so I haven't played any retirement arc stuff but I was definitely looking forward to it.
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What the particular poster in question was complaining about was the fact that there was not support in this year's GenCon Special for characters of level 12 and above, when there has been in the past. Adding in support for the higher tiers to events like that takes a lot of extra development, which, this year was instead put into offering a second, more tightly focused Special to run as well. He was also referring to the fact that Wardens of the Reborn Forge has yet to be sanctioned. With the new format of modules and the span of levels for that particular module, it's understandable that it may take a while. As John noted in his most recent blog, the module is being worked on and will be available at some point in the future for Society play.
There has been nothing from the campaign coordinators indicating that they are no longer planning on supporting level 12+ play.
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What the particular poster in question was complaining about was the fact that there was not support in this year's GenCon Special for characters of level 12 and above, when there has been in the past. Adding in support for the higher tiers to events like that takes a lot of extra development, which, this year was instead put into offering a second, more tightly focused Special to run as well. He was also referring to the fact that The Wardstone Patrol has yet to be sanctioned. With the new format of modules and the span of levels for that particular module, it's understandable that it may take a while. As John noted in his most recent blog, the module is being worked on and will be available at some point in the future for Society play.
There has been nothing from the campaign coordinators indicating that they are no longer planning on supporting level 12+ play.
Do you mean the Emerald Spire?
in order to "Drop 12+ level support..." TPTB would have to retire all/most/some existing mods for level 12+ PCs, something that is not happening. TPTB would have to stop organizers from running games for PCs levels 12+, and find some way to prevent players from playing them... none of this is happening.
Well you could always play them for no credit and/or without your PFS characters.
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Do 12+ sanctioned modules come with chronicle sheets?They do not come with them, but you can download them from the Additional Resources page (the right hand column).
Oops. What I meant to say is, do you get a chronicle sheet from playing a level 12+ module? So, thanks for answering, however, I know the level cap in PFS is 12th but this makes it sound like you're not "retired" if you can continue to gain chronicle sheets after 12th.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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At some point in another thread last year Vic Wertz laid out the numbers on what percentage of people participated in higher level scenarios. The number or reported Tier 7-11 scenarios was 1% of the total number of reported PFS scenarios.
Let that sink in for a moment. 1% of the total games played in PFS are Tier 7-11.
If that is, indeed, the case then the number of reported games above that tier is probably even lower. Why would the company continue to dedicate resources to that small a percentage of players?
Now, things could have changed. Perhaps the numbers have doubled. So, you know, 2%. Hell, even if they've tripled...I just don't see Paizo being concerned.
Finally, before I get dog-piled for pooping on high level players' parties, please understand that I think high level play is important. It is what players in the game aspire to. It is a goal that, if it goes away, will disappoint a great many people (even if they're not actually playing at that level, yet). There are certainly plenty of options for 12+ play, however. I just don't think Paizo needs to stretch themselves even more thin to write content that doesn't get used.
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From a business stand point like Drogon said above, and draw it to an economic angle, it does not make financial sense to sink more resources into one percent of your market. You have X number of resources, the more you put into that 1 percent of the market, the less you have to satisfy the 99 other percent.
Until that percentage go to about 15 percent, I dont think Id pay much attention to that total.
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Assuming that figure is correct, I'd say that the real question here is:
Why?
Why are so few games at Tier 7-11? Why are so many players dropping out of the campaign before they play Tier 7-11?
Even if the campaign were to add fifty Tier 1-5s a year, that would not address the issue of player retention that the Tier 7-11 figure is indicative of.
-Matt
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Assuming that figure is correct, I'd say that the real question here is:
Why are so many people dropping out of PFS before hitting Tier 7-11?
Well, part of it is new players adding in. You have to start at the bottom. Sure, you can run a pregen, but then you do not get the chance to play your character. For instance, in my area we just got a bunch of new players recently, and so we have been focusing on getting them off the ground more than playing our high levels. Actually, this Friday will be the first time in months that we got to play high level except at conventions.
Of course, in an environment like this, if all the focus is on low level play, people may feel discouraged from bringing their higher level characters, and so may drop out. For instance, I have not seen a few regulars recently, but I am sure that they will be back now that we are scheduling higher level games. I actually noticed one on the signups, so that is a good sign.
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1% of the total games played in PFS are Tier 7-11.
Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, go to the specials and look at how many 7-11 tables there are. Look at the Seeker tables in the specials that allow it.
With Seeker level support in Race for the Runecarved Key and in Siege of the Diamond City I was hoping we could see some more Seeker support for specials. Now understand. I get that statistic. I just want to know why after the announcement of not one but two specials coming out that Paizo couldn't have put a Seeker tier in one of them? For this situation it works. It's your once a year chance to dust off your old character.
It pains me to say it, I love Pathfinder, PFS and Paizo but I have to: It comes off as laziness on the part of Paizo. They didn't want to go through the trouble of supporting Seeker level content. So according to the season 5 story we needed Seeker at Nerosyan but not at Jormundun? This doesn't pass the smell test.
Please note: I am only referencing specials only. I think there are plenty of other opportunities to play after 12. I just want to dust off my character and do something plot relevant at least once a year.
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Assuming that figure is correct, I'd say that the real question here is:
Why?
Why are so few games at Tier 7-11? Why are so many players dropping out of the campaign before they play Tier 7-11?
Even if the campaign were to add fifty Tier 1-5s a year, that would not address the issue of player retention that the Tier 7-11 figure is indicative of.
-Matt
My sample size is small, but quite a percentage think the sweet spot of Pathfinder is the 4-6 level range, and that after level 7th things get too hard or too complicated. ALso, there is a noticable shift around 7ish with certain types of characters that work around pre-7th that don't work higher levels at all or the same.
Plus with only one character that can go through the seeker arc when you get a character to the 9-10 range you take a closer look at whether you want that one to go through what is a limited path of games (excluding adventure path games). So even those that get to the 7-11 range might decide the current isn't the "one."
I sort of agree that 10-11 tier gets a lot less fun - much more gotcha by writers and many GMs get less friendly. For quite a few of my characters I consider 10 a semi-retirement level - especially since I have already taken a character to 15th, so the next one through 12 may not leave a path another can take.
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Assuming that figure is correct, I'd say that the real question here is:
Why?
Why are so few games at Tier 7-11? Why are so many players dropping out of the campaign before they play Tier 7-11?
Even if the campaign were to add fifty Tier 1-5s a year, that would not address the issue of player retention that the Tier 7-11 figure is indicative of.
-Matt
I think you'd almost need 3 tables to get folks into the 7-11s regularly: 1 low table for the newbies the 7-11 table and then something in the middle to keep the gap bridged between the two.
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If that is, indeed, the case then the number of reported games above that tier is probably even lower. Why would the company continue to dedicate resources to that small a percentage of players?
Those players represent your most dedicated customers. Customers who are quite likely spending significant amounts on other material as well.
If that is, indeed, the case then the number of reported games above that tier is probably even lower. Why would the company continue to dedicate resources to that small a percentage of players?Those players represent your most dedicated customers. Customers who are quite likely spending significant amounts on other material as well.
They might also just be guys who show up at the local gaming store a lot.
They might also just be guys who show up at the local gaming store a lot.Hanging out at the game store a lot used to cost me about $100 a weekend.
It cost me one.
I had a soda addiction and they were happy to supply me with the goods. Sad time in my life.
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That statistic seems a little off to me, but that may be because we are scewed locally. There are quite a number of higher level games going on in the Twin Cities, including as many as three tables of Eyes in the waiting, with my table going on currently (we are halfway through).
However, I wonder if that is because our excellent VOs and organizers do a lot to foster play at all levels. Most game days have multiple tables, and allow for play across a variety of tiers.
I'd also say the GMIng higher tier scenarios is much harder work... You have to spend more time familiarizing yourself with a wider variety of NOCs, and often a lot of spells (and recently martial tricks as well!)
I would say that it takes me 2-3 times as much prep on a 5-9 or 7-11 because of all the neat things you find in them (and that is often ruined by the damned players wiping the encounter before the neat tricks can happen)!
Do other areas have different experiences?
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My crew has characters mostly hovering in the 7-11 tier, but a constant stream of new players means we regularly have to run more 1-5's.
Either they happen to stick around long enough or they leave, and a new lot of players come in later on and the cycle continues.
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That statistic seems a little off to me, but that may be because we are scewed locally. There are quite a number of higher level games going on in the Twin Cities, including as many as three tables of Eyes in the waiting, with my table going on currently (we are halfway through).
However, I wonder if that is because our excellent VOs and organizers do a lot to foster play at all levels. Most game days have multiple tables, and allow for play across a variety of tiers.
I'd also say the GMIng higher tier scenarios is much harder work... You have to spend more time familiarizing yourself with a wider variety of NOCs, and often a lot of spells (and recently martial tricks as well!)
I would say that it takes me 2-3 times as much prep on a 5-9 or 7-11 because of all the neat things you find in them (and that is often ruined by the damned players wiping the encounter before the neat tricks can happen)!
Do other areas have different experiences?
we have about 30 rotating players locally. 6 have gone through eyes, another 5 of us are going through eyes, and we have about 7 more who plan on playing after the current group. We usually run 3 tables twice a day, and have a 7-11 in at least one of those slots, if not one during each.
Online i certainly see a lot of low level play, but there are a lot of high tables too, and they will usually have 12 people signed up in hours, to the point i find it hard to get into games.
My data sample size is still relatively small but i have a hard time believing it's only 1% of tables, I'm guessing it's probably like 5%. Also, at higher levels your more likely to run modules or throw in some sanctioned play, as it's less of the rush to hit 18 pp asap so you can start buying the big 6.
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My crew has characters mostly hovering in the 7-11 tier, but a constant stream of new players means we regularly have to run more 1-5's.
Either they happen to stick around long enough or they leave, and a new lot of players come in later on and the cycle continues.
Is there a reason that you can't offer more then one scenario. 1 at the 1-5 tiers and another at the 5=9 or 7-11? Or even both he 5-8 and 7-11. As Silbeg mentioned, in the Twin Cities we have a robust amount of both high level players player the higher tiers and new/vet players playing at the lower ones. As a Coordinator for one of the events here in the cities I offer two different tiers at all times. One high one low. That way I can accommodate both the vets and new players at the lows and higher tiers.
We have so many players here in the Cities now and have to offer as many scenarios as we can. It is fun to see who shows up and who signs up for other events here in the Cities. No one event competes with another.. we just want to foster community and have seen a good one thrive here. :)
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Is there a reason that you can't offer more then one scenario. 1 at the 1-5 tiers and another at the 5-9 or 7-11? Or even both the 5-9 and 7-11.My crew has characters mostly hovering in the 7-11 tier, but a constant stream of new players means we regularly have to run more 1-5's.
Either they happen to stick around long enough or they leave, and a new lot of players come in later on and the cycle continues.
Burnout. Two of the other guys in the 7-11 tier are running their own Pathfinder campaigns (Way of the Wicked and Serpent's Skull), another rarely plays at all anymore because he's tired of the cycle, and that leaves me.
I got overwhelmed at one point trying to run a game each week and never playing; I've since reduced both my playtime and GMing so that I'm GMing about once every 2-3 weeks and only slotting myself to play when it's between two GM'd games that I've run, very sparingly. ie. first weekend GM, second weekend play, third weekend GM. After that I need a week off.
Other real life stuff has to take some precedence, and recruiting new GMs has been very difficult. Worth mentioning, this is only online play - locally, the community is pretty well supported. If it wasn't just me GMing PFS online, I'd be able to do more offline. I make an exception to GM for the cons we have each year.
From a business stand point like Drogon said above, and draw it to an economic angle, it does not make financial sense to sink more resources into one percent of your market. You have X number of resources, the more you put into that 1 percent of the market, the less you have to satisfy the 99 other percent.
Until that percentage go to about 15 percent, I dont think Id pay much attention to that total.
Chevrolet doesn't make the Corvette to sell Corvettes, they make the Corvette to sell the Impala and the Silverado.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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So, my memory is entirely faulty on this. And it is way too late to go back and edit that post.
My 1% comment was in regards to the number of active PFS players who play 5 or more times per month. I'm not entirely sure how that translated, a year later, into what I said above...I'm going to blame beer and Star Realms (that's what I was doing tonight - awesome game; if you haven't checked it out, you should, as it is obviously very distracting).
Anyhoo, mea culpa.
I know I've read somewhere that the number of people playing higher level play is low. Probably in the thread where John Compton was talking about what levels of play to support (and I don't remember when that was...fall last year?). But all of you who are questioning me are correct: the 1% is off.
I am so sorry to have completely derailed this... /-:
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I too see this 1% as highly skewed. Granted I'm playing in Paizo's back yard, but I see three to six 7-11 games a week generally. I jump around between 6 game stores in the area and, from time to time, a couple games hosted at homes for PFS. Each game store I play at has 2-4 games per week at each location.
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So, my memory is entirely faulty on this. And it is way too late to go back and edit that post.
My 1% comment was in regards to the number of active PFS players who play 5 or more times per month. I'm not entirely sure how that translated, a year later, into what I said above...I'm going to blame beer and Star Realms (that's what I was doing tonight - awesome game; if you haven't checked it out, you should, as it is obviously very distracting).
Anyhoo, mea culpa.
I know I've read somewhere that the number of people playing higher level play is low. Probably in the thread where John Compton was talking about what levels of play to support (and I don't remember when that was...fall last year?). But all of you who are questioning me are correct: the 1% is off.
I am so sorry to have completely derailed this... /-:
Drogon beer rage feinted us!!
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Assuming that figure is correct, I'd say that the real question here is:
Why?
Why are so few games at Tier 7-11? Why are so many players dropping out of the campaign before they play Tier 7-11?
Even if the campaign were to add fifty Tier 1-5s a year, that would not address the issue of player retention that the Tier 7-11 figure is indicative of.
-Matt
I bet that people who play regularly enough to have characters in the 7-11 range wind up spinning off home groups for real campaigns which then take up much of their gaming time. I don't see this as a bad thing though, since arguably part of the purpose of a robust organized play campaign is to strengthen a gaming community to the point where it can support regular home groups.
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Just two data-points
At the start of the year I GMed as guest GM in Germany. The players at the table all were some of the more active ones in the region.
I GMed a tier 7-8 with one character mainly build on GM credit and all other players using pregens - because they didn't have any characters that high yet.
Earlier this year I played Eye of the10. It was fantastic - but I likely GMed more players through Blackros Museum single handedly as there are total players here in the UK who have done Eye of the 10.
In both cases I'm sure given time that there will be real high tier play in Germany as well as more and more players who will have gone through Eye of the 10 here. But this takes either a lot of dedication or a lot of time.
And this brings me to the reason why some people will never get that high. Casual players often play for a while before doing something else again. You lose them at some stage. Other casual players can't compete at the power level needed for high level play.
There are also players who have characters on par in power with pregens - or even slightly below. The reason is that they don't spend hours outing over books, trying to plan advancement, take feats and developments just ahead of a game to quickly level up, don't work on synergies.
These players struggle on tier 7+. Dying more often let's them fall back in the wealth curve and makes it even worse - so they either have some strong players carrying them through / helping to optimize their chatacter or they eventually drop out.
High tier becomes too competitive for some of them. But they tend to be a silent group that you see less of here.
Paizo is ins difficult position as they have to cater to the hardcore player (which often is the pool for GMs) but also for the casual one. Not easy with limited resources.
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Other casual players can't compete at the power level needed for high level play.
There are also players who have characters on par in power with pregens - or even slightly below. The reason is that they don't spend hours outing over books, trying to plan advancement, take feats and developments just ahead of a game to quickly level up, don't work on synergies.
These players struggle on tier 7+. Dying more often let's them fall back in the wealth curve and makes it even worse - so they either have some strong players carrying them through / helping to optimize their chatacter or they eventually drop out.
High tier becomes too competitive for some of them. But they tend to be a silent group that you see less of here.
Paizo is ins difficult position as they have to cater to the hardcore player (which often is the pool for GMs) but also for the casual one. Not easy with limited resources.
We have a guy locally who had 7 pcs at differing ranges (at least one 9 and one 7) 2 to 3 months ago. I don't know if it was bad luck or lack of skill but he had a terrible string of games and has had them all killed too many times, except one which is no longer legal for play due to changing certain feats. He now has a level one and a level two pc.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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1% of the total games played in PFS are Tier 7-11.Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, go to the specials and look at how many 7-11 tables there are. Look at the Seeker tables in the specials that allow it.
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So Let's take every table of every event run at level 12+ (if you remove PaizoCon and Gen Con, you have, at most, 2-4 tables at the largest gaming cons of 150+ tables) What do you think the percentage of the 64,000 playerbase it entails? Let me give you a hint....it's very, Very small.
If the high level of play is there, don't tell us, show us through reporting. It had nothing to do with laziness. It has everything to do with running 5 tables, 30 players (at Gen Con 2013), through content that took 2-3 weeks to develop solely for level 12+ play. Let that sink in for a second. Out of 140 tables we scheduled at Gen Con for seeker tier (12+), we had 5 tables of players. That's it
Makes sense to me, everyone who gets to high level has to consume a huge amount of lower level content, it has to be a pyramid with the higher level tip much smaller than the supporting scenarios. I hope to one day get there, but as I only play PBP it will likely take many years, by which time I am sure there will be a few more options :)
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I think it might be worth looking at the fact that people with higher level characters will have multiple lower level ones as well. That would certainly skew things a bit towards the lower end. That being said, however, I can definitely see how team Paizo could get...hesitant (for lack of a better word) about spending time focused on higher level (12+) play. There are a decent amount of modules that you can play at or above that range (granted they are sanctioned modules, but still).
Maybe as a suggestion we could have someone write like 1 mod a year (or 1 mod per two years) that is geared towards higher level play? that way, you get to dust off your old character, but it's not so often that the costs would be significant.
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Folks, pointing out our theories as to why the data is skewed toward more low-tier tables doesn't change the fact that the data is skewed toward more low-tier tables. Data is data, and I'd argue that the "report your tables" is pretty difficult data into which to introduce bias.
As Mike said above, they plan their resources based on the number of tables reporting. If you can't report 7-11 tables at your events because they don't happen very often, then isn't it a good thing that Paizo is putting their resources where the demand is?
Interesting data to look at might be the number of times that each scenario has been reported - I would be really curious to see how many times a Season 4 7-11 has been played versus a Season 4 1-5.
Yes, I know some of us are frustrated by the lack of a Seeker Tier in the special(s) this year, but frankly, I'd rather they used the development time to build a new scenario in its stead. I can't imagine, with the incredible differentials within a group of level 13 characters, that it's easy to write and develop a run-as-written scenario for all possible groups that might show up to the table.
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I suspect is has more to do with convention play where people get introduced to the game and plan an intro or low level scenario, and then never play again.
Personally, my PFS characters are levels 19, 13, 11, 7, 6, 6, 5. And I've been playing since season 1. I'd be happy with more 7-11 and seeker play.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Drogon there was a topic about how extremely unbelievably small the amount of times Eyes of the ten has been reported. You might be confusing that topic with this.
Oh! Right! Thank you for the lifeline, Dragnmoon. I remember, now.
Last year at this time there were less than 50 runs reported of Eyes of the Ten Part One (and even fewer of parts 2 through 4).
Now, a year later, there is a new post by Mike Brock in another thread wherein he states that the total reporting is still under 100 for Part One. There are 50,000+ players actively playing PFS. If only 500-700 of them have played through Part One (let alone Parts 2 through 4) the percentage of Seeker play is tiny. Assuming 700 have played it (the maximum) and assuming 50,000 players (the minimum, I think) that means that 1.4% of play is Seeker.
So, it turns out I'm (mostly) right. I can breath easily again. (-:
To reiterate something I said: there is plenty of 12+ content, counting EotT, two convention specials, and the various modules and APs that have been sanctioned. I think there is more than enough content and options to account for the 1.4% of players who seem to actually be playing at that level.
Again, however: I feel like high level play is something that players aspire to. It's one of the reasons players get involved in the game (usually), and needs to be something that is out there for a goal. If it's not there, people will be disappointed. Having goals and aspirations is very important in anyone's life, even if it's just for a game.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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As someone who's only been playing PFS since September, I want back several things said previously (although with a change on a couple)...
1) I've said for 30 years that the sweet spot for D&D is level 3-8 (a little broader than 4-6, although I won't argue that if you want a narrower margin, that is it!) Once 9th level gets introduced (especially 5th level spells) I think that the game loses something, and the mechanics have really broken down by that point.
2)I'm a player who would rather make interesting characters over optimized ones. I there are a lot of other players like me in that regard. I'd rather try out feats and prestige classes that don't often hit the table and that have great flavor, even if they aren't exactly mechanically sound. That will work to an extent at low to mid levels, but other players don't want to have characters like that at their table in high tier games. As a result, a great many of my characters will never see high tier play, or if they do, they probably won't survive it.
3) I think the limited amount of high tier content is worrisome if you are trying to get a couple high level characters. I never worried about how I will get to level 5 or even level 7. However, now that I have a character who can participate in higher level content, I find myself being far more choosy about what I will play or won't play. I know I only will be able to get a few characters up in the long run, so I have to be selective in which character will get to run each adventure, and which 1 character will do eyes.
Even with all of those obstacles, I definitely hope to play at higher tiers. It's more a question of when than if. Since eyes of ten has no alternative, the opportunity cost of playing it is high. I won't get the chance to play a level 12 series again, so I have to pick the right time and character to ensure I get the most out of the experience. I would actually throw out the hypothesis that if there was a second set of level 12 modules published, it might actually make more people play eyes, since people would be less concerned about "blowing" their one chance of high level play.