An Attack of Opportunity is provoked and never declared.
Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.
Because an AoO is not an attack action (if it were, you could Vital Strike or activate Combat Expertise with it), they specifically had to change Sunder to not be an attack action, which prevented using it in AoOs and in full attacks.
Put simply;
- An "attack action" is a specifically defined action in Pathfinder, performed as a standard action.
- Combat Expertise can only be activated on an attack action or full attack action.
- An AoO is an attack, not an attack action. If it were an attack action, one could also use effects like Vital Strike with it- this is not the case.
- The rules had to specifically be altered so that Sunder, formerly part of an attack action, was no longer an attack action so that it could be used in AoOs or full attacks.
- Therefore, you cannot activate Combat Expertise on an AoO.
I'd split this into another thread, but I think it's important that this feat isn't balanced based on a misunderstanding of the rules. If you play this way, Combat Expertise and by extension Essence Expertise become dramatically more powerful, since you can use them with long reach weapons and boost your AC when it isn't your turn just because someone approached you.
Aside, from an in-game perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense either. You become better at dodging arrows and rays because someone got close to you and tried to fight you?
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Going over all the veils now!
Bangles of the Jealous Seductress: Seems pretty awesome for avoiding trouble, ending fights peacefully, or getting some extra time to get people in position and buff in an emergency. You probably wouldn't want to walk around with them charged though, forcing people to make saves because they got close to you is an excellent way to make someone mad (because people are aware when they succeed on a saving throw). The chakra bind seems really underwhelming. At 8th level, when you gain access, the most you can do with it is 1d8+3 damage, or 7.5 on average. Which is pretty much nothing at this point.
Bloody Shroud: I recall the Daevic playtest having access to some cool things that relied on you or your opponents being bleeding, but why does the Vizier have this? They don't want to get close to opponents, and hitpoints out-scale the damage dealt pretty rapidly, so it's not like you'd wear this to deal damage. I guess you could trigger Daevic Rage every round... but that's not great for Viziers; if you were going to multiclass to pick it up, you'd go Daevic. The chakra bind is cool, but not for a Vizier with their 1/2 BAB.
Bralani's Brooch: Until the binds come into play (at 10th and 14th), you'll probably just want to keep it in mind for Veilshifting when electric damage comes up, or if you've got spare veil slots and nothing pressing to focus on. The Shoulders bind is awesome as a way to insulate yourself from archer spam or rays- capping out at 45% (or 50% with a feat) deflection. The Neck bind (gained at 14th) is interesting, but scales weirdly due to how the Vizier class is laid out. Goes from capping at SR 28 or SR 30 to SR 32 or SR 34. That's some pretty intense SR, Level+14/16 and Level +12/14 respectively.
Aside, maybe Viziers should get their last two +1 essences at 9th and 15th instead, for a smoother progression? Then instead of gaining bumps at 3rd, 6th, 11th, 12th, 18th, and 19th, it'd be a smooth 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter.
Circlet of Brass: Seems okay, but hard to say without seeing other fire abilities. Could let you specialize really hard in one thing. The chakra bind seems kinda weak. You get it at 12th level, where it deals 6d6+10 (31) or 7d6+12 (36.5) damage. That's not bad, but you probably have better things to do with your actions and Fire is the most resisted energy type. Scales up much slower than hitpoints do.
Collar of Skilled Instruction: S'alright at low levels. Aid Another in combat is less powerful at higher levels. But! If you have a way to boost your Aid Another boost and you put essence into it, you can spend actions aiding pretty much everyone, which is really cool. The chakra bind is like being a Seer Vizier-lite, or stacking more teamwork feats on the Seer's abilities.
Coward's Boots: A small boost to speed, but it stacks with everything. Nice to have, but not critical. The bind is nice to have if you were already going to invest in the boots, but not a big draw on its own.
Cuirass of Confidence: Sounds really cool, and really nice for diplomancing, but it has a fatal flaw; people who make their save know that someone just tried to attack their mind. Way too risky to actually use unless you're approaching people that were already all hostile. The bind is nice for deflecting rays and other touch attacks.
Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding: The name seems really silly to me :P. Would be really nice if you could raise other creatures, but it's going to be outscaled super fast. Nice for a little support at levels 1 or 2, but probably a good idea to abandon afterwards. At 9th level you can replace it with a CR 4 cairn wight, which is a lot better, but still going to fall behind (Even fully invested, +18 to hit won't cut it at high levels). What happens if you have enough essence invested to get the plague zombie template, but you have the ring bound for a wight instead? Really needs either the option to raise creatures with different stats, or exponential increases in power to go with how creatures scale exponentially in power.
Deathchannel Ring: Kinda like the Circlet of Brass in damage output (but not typed), requires you to be really to things you want to hit, causes friendly fire if you want to have any back up when you're right in your enemy's faces, allows a Will save for half instead of targeting touch, and has limited uses per day. Pass with a vengeance, this thing is more of a danger to you and your allies than your enemies.
Ditchdigger's Armlets: Does extremely minor damage, but that's not really why you'd want to use it. Lets you reinforce areas by building permanent difficult terrain and block off charge lanes. The chakra bind gives you a reason to invest essence in it, giving you a spammable spiked pit with a much higher DC. Golems will fear you.
Dreamcatcher: A +2 untyped bonus to a knowledge skill, but with Essence invested can make you dominate in the field of knowing everything. The chakra bind is kinda cool, but once again you risk pissing people off because they know they had to make a save as soon as they got close to you. Would be better if you could turn it on or off, to just use it in interrogations or when you want to risk it, or something like that (which you might be able to do with Constant SLAs, all I remember is being able to turn them on as a free action if they get dispelled, not deactivating them).
Eye of the Oracle: Out of combat, it's a growing insight bonus to all of your skills (stack with Dreamcatcher to really know everything). In combat, it's really nice insurance on saves that are really important, but doesn't stack with the +Insight to save feats. The chakra bind is pretty nice- being able to tell your wizard buddy to shave off important and otherwise unknown buffs with dispel is fantastic.
Eyes of the Hawkguard: Decent if you've got nothing else and know you're going somewhere dark and have Darkvision. Fantastic if you somehow have blindsight. The range increment part doesn't really matter, since you're bad with weapons anyway. The headband bind is pretty awesome to have, and the body bind is amazingly powerful.
Gorget of the Wyrm: d4...? Without serious investment or a binding, this is an immediate pass. Gets more relevant if you invest more in it, capping out at 15d6 at 8 essence, which is pretty respectable despite the very short range. However! If you bind it to your shoulders it can you get a really nice fly speed with excellent maneuverability, and the neck bind gives you a really awesome resist aura and pumps the breath weapon up more.
Hand Cannons: Suddenly all the previous stuff that boosts attacks or range makes a lot more sense. Use your level in place of BAB. Caps out at a +4 enhancement bonus at 19th level with a feat, sadly, and has no way to scale damage; the best you're going to get is 2d6+4 with two elemental burst properties if you chakra bind it, so 4d6+4 with 2d6 of it being resistable. Deadly Aim can push this higher, but deadly aim doesn't do enough to justify it and requires even more feat investment. Maybe there will be other veils that can support it well enough, but from what I've seen it'd be an alright choice at 1st level that tapers off very quickly.
Hands of the Bard: The concentration boost is appreciated at low levels since all your activated veils act like spell-like abilities. The boost to [pattern] spells seems like it only matters to the chakra bind that grants you 3/day Hypnotic Pattern. Seems okay, probably a lot more useful at low levels when concentration checks are harder to make.
Heart of the Wight: Save bonuses against some fairly deadly effects, and Profane is a rare bonus type. Good if you know what you're going up against, or you Veilshift it. The chakra bind is fairly nice, letting you do things like stay up all night crafting or run cross-country without getting tired.
Horns of the Minotaur: Looks great for a Daevic, pass for a Vizier. It's always a secondary attack unless you bind it (which has the awesome property of making it stay a primary attack even if you combine it with manufactured weapons), which means -5 to hit, and you don't want to be combining this with weapon attacks.
Horselord's Greaves: +Ride and +Handle Animal. Not worth it without binding. Feet binding gives you an at-will Mount which is pretty sweet. Belt binding gets you phantom steed. The bonuses you give to creatures you mount would make this pretty nice for a mounted Daevic archetype.
Lavawalker's Boots: Water/lava walking without any essence investment; awesome if you know what you're going into or if you veilshift it. Especially nice for Seers, since you could turn these on and give them to your whole party, leading them across a lake or lava flow. Investment gets you some minor acid and fire resist (cold is usually associated with water though, acid with earth- seems odd). Binding lets you walk right over difficult terrain and unstable surfaces, or run over gaps.
Light Whip: Really nice as a defensive option, and probably the best of the ring slots. The CMB bonus starts off fairly mediocre, but investment pumps it up to good levels. Falls off at higher levels as flight and big enemies become more common. The bind lets you trip everyone in your reach when one person provokes, which seems mostly useful if someone resists and then another enemy comes after you.
Pestilence Cloak: Kinda underwhelming at low levels due to the save to just ignore it forever, but at 5 points it gets up to 50% concealment and at 7 people no longer get a save. Definitely going on the feet though, since it's competing with Gorget of the Wyrm's flight. Binding to feet is good at low levels before shoulder binding is an option, since it lets you get a low flight speed for out of combat movement and emulating levitate. Sickening people that attack you is nice but... Gorget of the Wyrm's flight might stop those attacks from happening at all.
Polar Snowshoes: Ending this effect is a free action. Is enabling it one too? Deals pretty low cold damage, but it's a retaliatory thing and doesn't require any actions so that's alright. The bind is neat, fills the same niche Lavawalkers do for non-seers if you want to shepherd your group across a lake.
Ring of the Abjurer: Light Whip's competition. Gets you a solid AC bonus without needing to wear heavy armor. Combines well with wearing something like padded armor with enhancements going to Fortification or other special abilities. Throwing out lesser globes of invulnerability is a pretty attractive bind.
Riven Darts: Range is really short and can't be enhanced by stuff like Eyes of the Hawk Guard since it isn't a range increment. Requires you to get really close to your targets for a poor benefit. The bind makes it a little more worthwhile since you can hit lots of targets, but the range means you'll rarely have enough valid targets anyway unless you're surrounded and in danger.
Robe of the Forgotten Deity: Wait... does this stack with concealment? If it does, combine with the Pestilence Cloak for up to 75% avoidance. If not, the bug cloak is probably a better choice (and you can put it on your feet, which is a less valuable slot). The bind, however, is crazy powerful since it's going to cut the effectiveness of almost all magic attacks thrown at you by 50% and make monsters without magic attacks pointless (and the ones that do, attack at half damage). You can keep this active forever. Should probably have limited use, which would make it attractive as an "oh crap" button, not a super powerful always-on defense.
Sentinel's Helm: Fantastic bonuses to Perception and Sense Motive, as high as +18 to each! Know everything, see everything, pierce every lie as the Vizier. Keeping essense invested in this up to the cap and then swapping it to combat abilities when a fight breaks out seems like a good strategy. The Head bind gets you Uncanny Dodge, which you might as well take if you're using this anyway.
Snakehandler's Gauntlets: Basically DR/outsider. The save bonus is nice if you know what you're facing- being a resistance bonus is sad but it'll get large enough that it's not a huge deal anyway. With the bind, probably better for a Guru or Daevic than a vizier.
Spiked Pauldrons: Pretty sweet as a deterrent against being grappled and serious CMD boost... but cuts into your shoulders slot. This plus Gorget of the Wyrm and Robe of the Forgotten Deity probably make Twin Veil [Shoulders] an attractive option. The bind isn't very attractive but there's no reason not to take it if you can.
Stalker's Tabi: The reverse side to the Sentinel's Helm. Doesn't conflict with the bug cloak, but if you do bind it to feet you can pretend to be a shadow dancer. Belt bind gets you Hide in Plain Sight.
Stare of the Ghaele: Gaze attack that causes Shaken. Weirdly enough people become immune once they've failed, rather than once they've saved. Head bind makes this fantastic, instead inflicting Staggered. Immunize your party at the beginning of the day. With 8 essence this gaze attack will be DC 25+Int, which is crazy powerful.
Stone Giant's Girdle: Regenerates way too slowly to be of much use, aside from the first time you use them. Decent if you know you're going into a big encounter and can prepare, or if you do a lot of overland travel, but in a scenario where encounters are minutes apart, it does very little for you. Belt gets you Rock Catching/Throwing (but you're a wimpy wizard-type), body gets you a decent Str bonus and reach increase. A lot better for Daevics (who would covet the reach increase) than viziers.
Stormcaller's Band: Good to have around if you don't have any desire for the other rings, since you can fill it up as a swift action when a situation where it's useful comes up. Wind Wall SLA is solid to have around and saves your party on scrolls.
Storm Gauntlets: Cool, but probably too dangerous for a vizier to really benefit from. The ranged touch attack from a hands bind is worse than the Circlet of Brass. The wrist bind could be pretty cool for a Daevic.
Tauric Brace: Probably not going to come up as often as grappling. Feet bind gets you an enhancement ( :( ) bonus to speed, Belt gives you trample. Seems pretty weak even for a Daevic.
Thurston's Bladewards: DR/bludgeoning is nice to have when facing foes with weapons, since not a lot of them use bludgeoning weapons. Tons of natural attacks deal bludgeoning damage though, so not great versus monsters. Wrist binding gets you a really, really strong shield bonus, though, which is worth keeping around regardless of what you're facing.
Vestments of the Maharaja: Insight to Diplomacy and Intimidate. Turns even a Cha-dumped Vizier into a social butterfly. The chest bind only allowing Int 12 or higher creatures a save seems very odd, since that's not a metric any other abilities besides mind reading care about, and means NPC viziers with this are going to no-save ruin PCs that don't have above average Int.
Vorpal Guards: AC bonus against critical confirmation and investment grants some minor fortification. Binding makes you immune to vorpal and increases the fortification dramatically. Hard to compete with other shoulders options since it will come up so infrequently.
Waistbands of the Wealthy: Insight to Appraise and Bluff. Binding makes it function like an increasingly larger bag of holding. The binding is icing, you're really here for the big Bluff bonus.
Conclusion: There are a lot of cool options in here, and you can build a very defensively strong Vizier. Their offense is really weak though. Most Viziers are probably going to gravitate towards the staggering gaze and decent breath attack, digging spiked pits when they're not doing one of those things. Low damage, very high utility, but not a lot of good combat options that aren't defensive or reactive. Seems like a solid class to bring as a 5th wheel to dominate skill checks and bring utility.
Design Manager
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An Attack of Opportunity is provoked and never declared.
Wall o'text:
Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.Because an AoO is not an attack action (if it were, you could Vital Strike or activate Combat Expertise with it), they specifically had to change Sunder to not be an attack action, which prevented using it in AoOs and in full attacks.
Put simply;
- An "attack action" is a specifically defined action in Pathfinder, performed as a standard action.
- Combat Expertise can only be activated on an attack action or full attack action.
- An AoO is an attack, not an attack action. If it were an attack action, one could also use effects like Vital Strike with it- this is not the case.
- The rules had to specifically be altered so that Sunder, formerly part of an attack action, was no longer an attack action so that it could be used in AoOs or full attacks.
- Therefore, you cannot activate Combat Expertise on an AoO.I'd split this into another thread, but I think it's important that this feat isn't balanced based on a misunderstanding of the rules. If you play this way, Combat Expertise and by extension Essence Expertise become dramatically more powerful, since you can use them with long reach weapons and boost your AC when it isn't your turn just because someone approached you.
Aside, from an in-game perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense either. You become better at dodging arrows and rays because someone got close to you and tried to fight you?
It's worth its own thread, but let me repeat what I posted over on GitP:I'm willing to post a FAQ for and official clarification due to the slight wording difference between Combat Expertise and Power Attack. In the meantime, assume that if for some inexplicable reason Combat Expertise doesn't work like its offensive counterpart Power Attack, that I'll be adding the following line to Essence Expertise "In addition, you may now choose to activate Combat Expertise anytime you are allowed to make an attack or combat maneuver." Based on their FAQ regarding Sunder and conversations I've had with Paizo team members previously, I don't think it'll be necessary though.
What I've been told before, is that when it says that it must be used with "an attack or full attack action" it should be read "an attack, or full attack action" not "an attack action or full attack action".
The reason, ignoring rules for a second since it's clear we're not going to agree on that, is that it's ludicrous for your ability to avoid blows, especially arrows and rays, to improve because someone attempted to engage you in melee. Imagine two situations.
I have an AC of 20, and Combat Expertise would give me a +3 bonus.
1) An archer shoots at me and rolls a 22. I get hit.
2) An orc attempts to engage me in melee and I try to trip him with my light whip. Whether I succeed or fail, I activate Combat Expertise and now have an AC of 23. An archer shoots at me and rolls a 22. The fact that the orc tried to engage me in melee is directly responsible for the archer missing.
It's incredibly silly and nonsensical, and probably precisely the reason why Combat Expertise and Power Attack have different wording.
It makes perfect sense to me. Someone engaging you in melee gave you the opportunity to shift your stance to a more defensive position, which in turn gave you an advantage against the archer that you would have lacked if you hadn't had that opportunity to adjust.
That would make sense, if it were possible at all to adjust to defend against the archer if the melee opponent hadn't approached you. But that's not a possible option. The approach of an opponent is literally what triggered the opportunity.
The exact same thing would happen if someone with a 100 ft speed sprinted past you and was on the other side of the field, and then in the same round an archer took a shot.
Or if you had a cohort that just chills out behind you in fights and walks back and forth letting you trip him so your AC is higher. It doesn't make sense, just as it doesn't work in the rules.
EDIT: Actually, if you wanted to make Essence Expertise work that way, you'd naturally see a lot of Viziers using the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding and having it just patrol behind them so they can trip it with their Light Whip for a free boost to AC. I think that would weaken the product, personally.
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Design Manager
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Allies don't provoke attacks of opportunity, so the DLRoEB thing you suggest is not a possibility.
You absolutely can activate Power Attack on an Attack of Opportunity, choosing to put more muscle behind the blow at the expense of accuracy. I see no reason why you shouldn't instead be able to use your opponents opening to utilize a adopt a combat stance that improves your position defensively. This is actually something that is a part of fencing and other technical martial arts,where an attack is often just the platform for your actual goal (such as establishing a pattern to lull your opponent into, using an exaggerated lunge to feint them into an unfavorable position, etc.) That being said, there's now a discussion thread for this over in the rules forum and I think we should shift any further discussion on this topic to that venue.
You determine who your allies are. Any other rule results in insanity, where you have no control over who your abilities that affect "allies" affect. It would also be weirdly gamist if one action didn't have the potential to provoke purely because of who they are. I don't like Fred, so he provokes when he moves past me, but I'm friends with Jane so even if I tried to I couldn't trip her. What do you think happens if, say, a dominated PC is being led off by enemies and you want to trip them to keep them from escaping? Is it impossible because they're your "ally"?
If you want to produce a system where an enemy running past you and you lashing out to trip them makes you harder to hit with arrows by including an extra phrase in Essence Expertise, I can't stop you. But I can warn you, since I want the product to be as good as possible and it's going to introduce silliness and abuse into the game.
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Design Manager
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No, I'm sorry, you cannot declare that a magical creation under your control is your opponent, which it must be for an AoO to take place.
But let's go ahead and please put a pin in this conversation until review of the Combat Expertise feat provides direction one way or another. I am happy to discuss pretty much anything else, but this has moved past the point where it is going to be productive and is beginning to become a distraction to other things that may prove more fruitful to discuss at this time.
Well, I posted almost 3,000 words on all the available veil options and commented on how you gain maximum essence investment at an odd, uneven rate (3rd, 6th, 11th, 12th, 18th, and 19th level). We can talk about that. :P
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Design Manager
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If we change the levels he gains Improved Essence capacity from 3 level and each 8 levels thereafter to 3rd level and every 6 levels thereafter it makes the Essence capacity boosts a bit smoother but creates really weak levels in the class chassis. I'm open to hearing what the general consensus is though.
Bralani's Brooch: Originally the SR boost was +1 per Essence (meaning the Vizier could cap at about SR 26, which is the equivalent of drow racial SR; the current advancement is basically on par with a what a drow noble gets), but there was some pretty vociferous demand during playtesting to make this ability more relevant, especially since achieving that level of defense involves the investment of nearly a third of your resources to gain that benefit, and there's still a wide swath of spells it won't serve to stop.
Polar Snowshoes: Ending the effect is a free action; activating it is a standard action as noted in the first sentence of the veil mechanics block.
Vestments of the Maharaja: It's bind is essentially a Rod of Rulership that you get to wear around. It's parameters are based on that item.
The Vizier in general is your defensive caster; he's really supposed to approach the game from a different angle than your "traditional" caster. I wanted him to play completely differently than a wizard or sorcerer, not just do the same thing in a different way. Even his most offensively focused abilities typically have a strong defensive benefit, making him something like a sorcerer/battle herald in play, which was the goal of a class whose title implies a certain level leadership. You don't become the power behind the throne by going around blowing things up, you do it by making the throne unassailable. From a party perspective, the vizier is a (deceptively) defensively strong and adaptable controller/buffer who works side-by-side with the group.
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Essence capacity boosts need to be smooth. If you gain them at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter you have a power level that ramps up over time at a regular rate. The current system is smooth up until 6th, but then it instead just spikes at 11th/12th and 18th/19th, meaning that from levels 6-10 and 13-17 you're getting relatively weaker on important offensive actions that require the use of a fully invested veil.
I don't have a problem with the Bralani's Brooch. It's nice to see an SR class feature that isn't just clearly bad, especially since you can drop it down to easily-penetrated levels as a swift action if allies need to boost you. But it has weird interactions with the uneven power curve caused by the essence capacity issues.
Another game element being poorly designed is no reason for a new one to also have the same failings. Tradition is not an excuse. We don't balance around fighters or rogues, we balance around good classes. The rod of rulership is also based around having an awful save DC that makes it mostly effective against peasants, not a high DC that can be on a character that gives people penalties to will saves and can force someone to reroll their save once a round.
When I said defensive, I mean selfishly defensive. A lot of really good options for making themselves harder to kill, not for defending your allies. You don't make your throne unassailable, you make yourself a hard, low value target. I understand the goal in making the vizier play differently, but I don't think that's really been achieved.
Let's look at what their veil options really are for a few different categories.
Offense (Defined as veils that damage or debilitate opponents, or enable you to damage or debilitate opponents more effectively)
Bloody Shroud (Body) - Damage is too low to be relevant. Bind only affects melee weapons, which Viziers are not competent with.
Circlet of Brass (Headband) - Very low damage when bound (5 points of essence capacity from class, so 31 or 36.5 damage that can miss, 47.5 maximum at 19th level). Only interacts with Gorget of the Wyrm, and only if Gorget of the Wyrm is set to deal Fire damage, the most commonly resisted energy type.
Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding (Ring) - Gets you a decent minion at 1st-3rd level. Quickly scales out of relevance, never to be woven again.
Deathchannel Ring (Ring) - Deal low damage (3.5 minimum to 44 at 19th level) in a short range centered on yourself that allows a Will save for half a limited number of times per day.
Gorget of the Wyrm (Shoulders or Neck) - Get a very short range cold, fire, acid, or electricity (must be chosen when the veil is weaved, so no versatility) breath weapon. Starts off as extremely weak (3.5), develops into being pretty moderate (52.5), which combined with the short range makes it hard to justify using. Binds get you much more useful flight or an energy resist aura that makes the damage on the breath weapon a bit more relevant (67.5).
Hand Cannons (Wrist) - Abysmal. Their damage is decent at 1st level but their range is awful and their damage never improves meaningfully.
Horns of the Minotaur (Head) - Get a gore attack. Not useful for Viziers at all; even if they fully invest in it their attack bonus will still be poor unless they split a bunch of points into boosting strength, and the damage will still be very low (even worse than Circlet of Brass and the Deathchannel Ring) and require them to engage in melee.
Riven Darts (Hands) - Bad damage (2.5 to 40) at an excruciatingly short range with a touch attack.
Stare of the Ghaele (Head) - A gaze attack that makes people Shaken for d6+1 rounds. Can only ever affect a target one time in a 24 hour period, since immunity is received for failing instead of succeeding. Head bind makes this much, much more powerful, inflicting Staggered instead.
Storm Gauntlets (Hands or Wrist) - Bad damage (6 to 27) on a melee touch attack. Bind gets you the ability to use it as a ranged touch attack, wrist lets you apply it on the melee weapon attacks you can't land.
Viable Options: Gorget of the Wyrm (because it comes with flight), Stare of the Ghaele. Total: 2
Defense (Defined as veils that boost personal defenses, not your allies)
Bralani's Brooch (Neck or Shoulders) - Provides good electrical resistance, plus an option to either gain miss chance against ranged weapons or powerful SR.
Coward's Boots (Feet) - Bonus speed. Also somewhat offensive, since you can use it to get in range before flight is an option. Binding gets you Mobility, effectively.
Eye of the Oracle (Headband) - Boost your saves, AC, or any skill not covered by one of your other veils once a round. Burns your AoO, so you need Combat Reflexes if you want to use it with the Light Whip.
Heart of the Wight (Body) - Get a decent boost on saves against some nasty things. Alignment restricted (a mechanic that seriously needs to die just like paladins that have to be human and rangers that have to be good). Bind gets you some nice immunities, but also makes you immune to cure light wounds.
Horselord's Greaves (Feet or Belt) - Bonuses to Ride and Handle Animal, and magical mounts to help you play keep-away.
Light Whip (Ring) - Trip people that try to approach you with a decent bonus in place of your own. Becomes less relevant as flight comes into play.
Pestilence Cloak (Feet or Shoulders) - The flavor says it's pure akasha, the rules say it's an illusion. Pure akasha can be rammed into people to gore them or slap them when they escape the Bangles, so I'm not sure what's up with that. They get you concealment that's an illusion people can make a save to disbelieve until you recreate the effect (presumably by re-weaving the veil) every time they attack you. When you can drop 7 essence into it it becomes incredible, giving you straight up non-illusory total concealment against everyone.
Ring of the Abjurer (Ring) - Convert essence into an extra powerful set of bracers of armor. Binding gets you some lesser globes of invulnerability.
Robe of the Forgotten Deity (Body) - Get concealment through another method. Bind lets you go incorporeal for as long as you want, which is really, really powerful.
Snakehandler's Gauntlets (Hands) - Get DR/outsider and a resistance bonus on saves against poison. Bind gets you the ability to coat the weapons you don't use in a very weak poison.
Spiked Pauldrons (Shoulders) - High boosts to CMD against grappling and some mediocre damage against grapplers. Bind doesn't do anything important.
Storm Giant's Girdle (Belt) - Temp HP that regenerates extremely slowly. Binds are irrelevant for a Vizier.
Tauric Brace (Feet or Belt) - Bonus to CMD against the rarely used bull rush and reposition maneuvers, boost to CMD against trip (which won't matter once you can fly). Foot bind gets you an enhancement bonus to move speed which won't work with haste. Belt bind gets you a trample attack you can't use.
Thurston's Bladewards (Wrist) - DR/bludgeoning, which might as well be DR/most weapon using NPCs. The real reason to use it is the bind that grants a good shield bonus to AC, saving you some cash on a buckler.
Vorpal Guards (Shoulders) - Bonus on AC vs crit confirmation, fortification. Hard to justify using when there are so many other Shoulder slot veils and you could just use an Abjurer's Ring and wear heavy fortification padded armor or something.
Viable Options: Some of these are rarer situations. You'd pick them up with Veilshifting when you need them, but not weave them in the morning. I'm just going to list stuff worth looking at every day. Bralani's Brooch (once binds are available), Eye of the Oracle (for saves), Light Whip (until flight), Pestilence Cloak (once you can invest 7 essence), Ring of the Abjurer, Robe of the Forgotten Deity, Thurston's Bladewards. Total: 7
Utility (Defined as veils that provide out of combat or combat avoiding problem solving options)
Bangles of the Jealous Seductress (Wrist) - Lets you get past individuals that fail at high levels. At low levels the range is too short to get past or escape anyone, since you'll still be in their line of sight when they're no longer in the area of effect. Can temporarily stop a fight, but only if you both catch every enemy combatant in the area (unlikely since it's PBAoE) and they all fail their saves. Does not provide any meaningful damage when bound.
Cuirass of Confidence (Chest) - Makes you better at diplomancing, but is extremely risky to use. It hits everyone in a large range, and anyone that makes their save will know someone is trying to mess with them and likely become aggressive and suspicious. Insight bonus does not stack with Vestments of the Maharaja. Binding gives you a Defense ability to deflect rays using Diplomacy.
Dreamcatcher (Headband) - Eventually lets you dominate all Knowledge checks. Bind is good for interrogations, but you'll want to leave it off most of the time or else you'll alert people that someone is up to no good.
Eyes of the Hawkguard (Headband or Body) - Small bonus to sight range with unusual sight types. Only worthwhile for the binds or if you have Blindsense or Blindsight. Get either permanent see invisibility or true seeing.
Lavawalker's Boots (Feet) - Lets you solve some out of combat situations involving swimming and walk over difficult terrain more easily. Becomes less relevant as flight comes into play.
Polar Snowshoes (Feet) - Once you can bind it, walk over water. Has damage component, but it's too small to really matter. Becomes less relevant as flight comes into play.
Sentinel's Helm (Head) - High skill bonuses to Perception and Sense Motive. Bind gets you Uncanny Dodge, which is okay but not really important.
Stalker's Tabi (Feet or Belt) - High skill bonuses to Stealth and Acrobatics. Feet bind gets you a shadowdancer's teleport, belt bind gets you hide in plain sight.
Vestments of the Maharaja (Chest) - High skill bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate. Bind gives you a silly powerful AoE dominate with the added side effect of making martial players really mad at you when you tell them they don't get a save against being mind controlled.
Waistband of the Wealthy (Belt) - High skill bonuses to Appraise (lol) and Bluff. Bind gets you a free bag of holding.
Viable Options: Dreamcatcher, Lavawalker's Boots (until flight), Sentinel's Helm, Stalker's Tabi, Vestments of the Maharaja. Total: 5
Control (Defined as veils that remove opponents from combat and alter battlefield conditions)
Ditchdigger's Armlets (Wrist) - Dig out permanent difficult terrain. Probably one of the better veils. Eventually lets you throw high DC spiked pits (an excellent spell) on a d4 round cooldown. Sadly becomes less relevant at higher levels as flight comes into common use.
Hands of the Bard (Wrist) - Boost concentration. The only ability whose DC is boosted is the one provided by the bind, which doesn't scale with essence invested normally- the end result is a normal DC +2. Hypnotic Pattern is cool at low levels, but by the time you can access it (at 8th level) it's already starting to go out of style and likely only hits a single target.
Stormcaller's Band (Ring) - Bull rush at range with a decent bonus. Bonus doesn't really get high enough to push people more than 5-10 feet, which isn't as impressive as I thought it could be before. Wind wall a few times a day.
Viable Option: Ditchdigger's Armlets. Total: 1
Buffing (Defined as veils that provide buffs to allies)
Collar of Skilled Instruction (Neck) - Allows you to Aid Another at range or aid multiple people. This will scale out of relevance unless chosen for a character focused on it that boosts the benefit their Aid Another provides, and even then becomes less relevant as multiple attacks per round become common. Bind lets you share one specific teamwork feat chosen when you bind the veil.
Nothing else specialized in buffing. Gorget of the Wyrm has a bind that lets you give people an energy resistance.
(Sort of) Viable Option: Collar of Skilled Instruction. Total: 1
If the goal of the Vizier is to be a protector that can defend allies, they suck out loud at that. Their only ability that can do that is giving an energy resistance you have to pick in the morning unless you're 20th level.
They have only one veil that allows them to buff allies, and its dependent on having chosen a teamwork feat that's relevant (and teamwork feats are often underwhelming). They can sort of do it if they're specifically a Seer, but there's only a small handful of no-essence veils worth giving to other people. You could share the ring of essence binding and walk around with a bunch of zombies at low levels, which would be pretty cool even if it didn't stay relevant for long. EDIT: Scratch that, you can only share Hands or Feet veils.
Their only control ability worth investing in is spamming spiked pits, but those go out of style with flight and larger monsters.
Their only two offensive abilities to speak of are the breath weapon (which requires you to give up a flight option and also invest in Circlet of Brass, and limit yourself to the most resisted energy type to make its damage worth an action) and the staggering gaze attack. As far as I can tell if you want to be good at combat your whole character has to bank on throwing spiked pits at people and dominating everything and telling them to sit in a corner and wait their turn to come into the murder room where you'll stagger them with a gaze attack and let your party members pound them into dust.
They're good at certain skills and they can walk on water, and that seems to be about it for relevant utility. If you wanted to do that you'd probably be best off with a bunch of 1 charge wands you can toss essence into to pretend you're a utility wizard. A 1 charge CL 20 wand of Greater Magic Weapon lets you give everyone some nice equipment. But if you're going to play like this... why aren't you just a wizard?
The more I look into the guts of the PDF the more it looks like this is an early beta release, not a final product. I expect a lot from Dreamscarred Press, since I love Path of War and Psionics as extremely well balanced and complete products, and so far this really doesn't meet those standards.
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Design Manager
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I have to disagree on several fronts.
I'm willing to consider shifting his Essence Capacity gains to shift from following his class chassis to being more in line with the system chassis.
The biggest issue I see with your evaluation is that you look at everything on a piece by piece basis, which, honestly, misses the point completely. The entire system feeds on its own ability to create a balanced and adaptable character. The Vizier's veils are all part of his total capabilities, associating as "sets" with his class features (or blending into other chassis' on a feat by feat basis). This subsystem's history is also one of strongly supporting multiclassing, so there are several veils whose greatest strengths are in their ability to bolster other veils, class features, etc.
The Vizier was playtested for a full year before being released, with strong input from the community and numerous results incorporated at all levels of play.
The Vizier doesn't protect his allies (primarily) he protects himself while positioned to create circumstances that strongly favor his allies (whether through veil buffs, class features, or other means).
The fact that you completely dismiss some of the options that players who've actually used the system rate highly makes it difficult to pinpoint where in your evaluation you're just missing it. Riven Darts would be a prime example. It's (honestly almost too much) potent at-will damage that you discarded because of short range, but that isn't an issue. The Vizier can take it, and reliably so. It's one of the most popular and effective options available. Similarly with Hand Cannons.
I do want to say, I appreciate you taking the time to go through this. It did help us discover the unfortunate issue with a couple incomplete items getting lost between the final playtest release and layout, giving us the opportunity to get those logged and corrected quickly.
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A bunch of sub-par pieces don't add together to create a whole that's as good or better than another set of pieces that are individually solid. That's literally what a major problem with the Monk is, they're a class with a ton of low-quality class features that don't synergize.
Please give me some specific examples, because I don't see any of that. What circumstances is he going to make that strongly favor his allies? He has two veils that buff other people; Gorget of the Wyrm which can be bound to give an energy resistance aura, and Collar of Skilled Instruction, which can share one Teamwork Feat you had to pick in the morning when you bound the veil. I mentioned Ditchdigger's Armlets as being solid for battlefield control, but like lots of things on this class they become less relevant as flight becomes more and more common (difficult terrain and pits don't really do a lot to people that can fly).
Riven Darts has extremely low damage. Saying "Oh, it can deal up to 180 damage!" is really inaccurate, because it's dealing 45 damage tops to individual targets (at 19th level, where 45 damage in a round is kinda like being hit by a fifth grader with a foam sword) that all have to be within 20 feet (extremely close quarters) and hit with a touch attack (which contrary to popular belief, can and totally do miss). Even taking that at face value, a blaster wizard is doing 42 damage to everyone in a 20 ft spread up to 720 ft away (with a Reflex save) at 6th level. Obviously an at-will ability shouldn't match what an equal level limited resource ability does, but I think a 19th level at-will ability should absolutely be better than or at least as good as something that was available 13 levels ago. And comparing yourself to a comparable martial or pseudo-martial (like a Cleric or Bard) you don't even do as much damage as they can do at a longer range concentrated on individual targets.
Hand Cannons max out at 4d6 (2d6 of which is energy)+4 damage attacking AC, with a low BAB to qualify for feats (you will never have Improved Precise Shot) with a 20 ft range increment. That's a maximum of 24+Dex (+up to 8 Insight if you also fill up Chakra Targeting and are close to your target). 32+Dex isn't great for a ranged attacker, especially one with such low damage output. Against a target with no energy resistance you're pumping out 26 (with Chakra Targeting) damage per hit at 19th level. Assuming your pseudo-BAB gives you extra attacks, you're using Deadly Aim, and assuming you made Dex your primary ability score and have a 32 now, you're looking at a routine of
+37/+32/+27/+22 (2d6+24/x2 plus 2d6 energy)
Or with Rapid Shot
+35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (2d6+24/x2 plus 2d6 energy)
Your damage output against the average AC a CR 17 (two CRs down) opponent has, 34, is going to be around 130, assuming they have no energy resistance. For a ranged attacker at that level, that's awful. Like, probably 1/3 to 1/2 of what another person who invested as many feats into being good at ranged damage as you did. And a good chunk of it is dependent on your target having no resistance against the energy types you chose, when energy resistance is handed out like party favors at high levels. And you had to be right up in their face, within 20 feet. Against a high AC target (46)? You might as well have not even bothered, because your damage would be around 60.
Look, I don't think the Vizier should match every other class in damage. They absolutely shouldn't, if they could throw out martial or blasting focused damage at-will without significant investment it wouldn't be balance, it would be broken. But they should at least be able to do something more significant. Provide cool buffs to their allies, control the battlefield in a way that has longevity past the land speed age, directly attack enemies with debuffs, anything. Because right now you pretty much have to default to "Vestment of the Maharaja and Stare of the Ghaele becomes my character eventually, sucks if my enemies are immune to mind affecting".
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Congratulations on being in the top 3 third party books released this week! I hope you continue to hold that position all month.
I am very happy with my release. Also I love the art you got for the book. Great stuff here.
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Design Manager
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Hand Cannons max out at 4d6 (2d6 of which is energy)+4 damage attacking AC, with a low BAB to qualify for feats (you will never have Improved Precise Shot) with a 20 ft range increment
There's actually no way Hand Cannons with those bonuses would have only 20 foot range increment. It would be a 60 foot range increment, targeting touch AC, with full BAB equivalent to hit and for determining abilities like Deadly Aim et al. And in addition to his extra 2d6 elemental damage (which he can always adjust by changing his allocation to account for resistances and vulnerabilities) he gets his 2d10 on every crit. Eyes of the Hawkguard can add up to an additional 90 feet to that range increment, giving him a range increment of 150 feet (flicking through my collection of Paizo APs and scenarios, I wasn't able to find a single encounter where that didn't cover pretty much the entire map) and a maximum range of 1500, more than enough to cover any battlefield. Pseudo full BAB means he'll have a more than reasonable chance to-hit against level appropriate challenges. Circlet of Brass can tag up to an extra 18 damage against foes without fire resistance/immunity, putting his damage with Deadly Aim and Chakra Targeting up to 4d6+46 (x2 + 2d10). That accounts for the full 30 essence, but depending on feat choices, this vizier probably still has around 5-7 essence left plus what he can eke out of his capstone at 20th, so he can easily have his defenses pumped (not including essence from items, racial traits, and favored class bonuses, which will be featured in the 4th supplement with archetypes and races). So nearly twice your projected damage on a Vizier who still has 8 unassigned veils and upwards of 20+ essence available. This particular vizier is probably also rocking permanent true seeing with enhanced vision modes thanks to Eyes of the Hawkguard, so he doesn't need Improved Precise Shot as much as other characters. Cover could still be an issue, but I've never known it to be for characters with at-will flight and/or teleportation available. Collar of the Skilled Instructor could be used to share Target of Opportunity, potentially netting him another attack at full BAB on rounds he doesn't need to essence shift. If he wanted to go all out offensively, he could also use Bloody Shroud to convert up to 8 points of that damage (probably just 7 though, we'd be looking at a lot of feats spent on Expanded Capacity) to bleed damage for enemies within 40-45 feet. So with only about 1/2 of the veils accounted for, damage is much higher than you projected, and the range (which you shorted by 2/3 to begin with) is increased several times over. Just as one example.
Congratulations on being in the top 3 third party books released this week! I hope you continue to hold that position all month.
I am very happy with my release. Also I love the art you got for the book. Great stuff here.
Thank you! It was very exciting to see my products in the #1 and #4 slots for the top downloads, so a big thank you to everyone who helped make that happen.
Yeah, I was wrong on the range increment, I didn't notice the increase from essence investment. It'd be 60 feet, which is acceptable. Everything else stands, though (my estimates included the energy burst). Fire damage might as well not be damage most of the time at high levels, when so many creatures have hefty resistances or immunities baked in and gearing up with fire resistance is a drop in the bucket in most creatures' gear budgets (or a teleport fueled retreat and standard action away with the cheapness of resist energy, due to being a 1st level spell- if you can't switch up your energy or kill something before it can react, expect that to stump you a lot), so I'm loathe to count dealing fire damage as a positive. Blasting wizards, for example, pretty much have to have something that lets them get out of fire damage, or else their output ends up being dramatically reduced- this is why Admixture is so popular.
You will not be targeting touch AC, unless you're referencing something that's not in the PDF. No veils or abilities have the word "touch" in them other than Veil-Touched Nemesis, Bangles of the Jealous Seductress, Circlet of Brass, Cuirass of Confidence, Pestilence Cloak, Riven Darts, and Storm Gauntlets, and none of them modify Hand Cannons.
What does true seeing have to do with needing Improved Precise Shot? The major boon of Improved Precise Shot is that it cuts out the +4 soft cover bonus lots of targets get if you have allies that engage in melee, or if you want to shoot at anyone behind other creatures without moving and losing your full attack.
I think if you put Bloody Shroud on to do anything other than trigger Daevic rage on yourself you're going to piss off your allies a lot more than your enemies, since it hits everyone in a PBAoE, which is more likely to include your allies than your enemies when you're fighting at range.
This is kind've the point though, isn't it? You can invest most of your character (30ish Essence at a time, by your estimate, and over half your total feats- Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Chakra Targeting, at least 1 Expanded Capacity) into one trick that lets you be not quite as good as an archer. If that were an option you could pick up when your party just needs some consistent damage, that would be cool. As something you need to focus on to make it sort of okay at high levels when all the pieces come together and your target can't resist fire, it's not acceptable. And it certainly doesn't make up for a lack of good control or buffing options on a class that's ostensibly supposed to be good at those things.
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Design Manager
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Looking into it, Hand Cannons should target touch AC.
True Seeing cuts out most forms of concealment, removing 50% of the reason for Imp. Precise Shot, while also cutting out many other traditional defenses that Imp. PS would not be able to handle.
***Edit***
Okay stumbled upon a bit of an issue. We already discovered there was one or two areas where we got old information added by mistake during correction of an issue that cropped up during layout (discussed earlier in the thread). It looks like there's closer to 5 items that require an errata, so I'm going to post up an official list this afternoon with the missing/incorrect items and their corrections. You should treat these as official errata which will be incorporated into the .pdf no later than the compiled release.
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After reading through the playtest documents, I noticed a lack of longer ranged and/or AOE nukes for the Vizier. I know that for at will abilities these could get out of hand quickly but could such new veils be balanced by a 'burn essence on use' mechanic, perhaps reusing the Guru's essence burning mechanic?
I might have missed some discussions on this subject so forgive me if I'm asking things already asked x times :-)
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Design Manager
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No, that's actually a neat idea. Up to this point essence burn has been confined to class abilities (and some spells you haven't seen yet), but creating veils that use the mechanic directly could actually be fairly interesting.
On another note, life, as it is wont to do, happened and I didn't get the errata posted, but I haven't forgotten about it. I just need time at an actual computer which hasn't happened yet.
This is a possible example of how this would look in practice. Note that I did not crosscheck with all other veils so the actual effects could be UP or OP. However, it could give an idea of what is possible:
Radiance of the Sun
Descriptors: Fire
Class: Vizier
Slot: Hands , Head , Wrists
Saving Throw: Reflex half
You direct your gaze at enemies, shooting two fiery beams from your eyes.
As a standard action, the wearer of this Veil can launch twin fiery beams that combine as one 30 feet line attack. Any creature in the area takes 1d6 fire damage.
Essence: For each point of Essence invested in this ability increase the fire damage dealt by 1d6. When using this ability, you can burn essence to increase the fire damage dealt by 2d6 for each essence burned. These two effects stack but the sum of invested and burned essence can never exceed the capacity of the chakra receptacle.
Chakra Bind (Hands):[ V2] Binding this Veil to your Hands slot allows you to form an orb of fire and throw it instead of firing beams from your eyes. The area changes to a 5 ft. spread with a range of 100ft and all damage dice change to d8’s. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the radius of the spread by 5 ft.
Chakra Bind (Head):[ V6] Binding this Veil to your Head slot allows you to focus your mind on the attack, allowing you to project fiery death at a great distance. The attack changes to a 50ft. line and all damage dice change to d8’s. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the line of effect by 20ft.
Chakra Bind (Wrists):[ V8] Binding this Veil to your Wrists slot unlocks the most powerful but also most dangerous effect of this veil. By guiding pure akashic energy through your body and directing it out of your arms, the attack deals force damage instead of fire damage. The attack also changes to a 50ft. line. For each point of Essence invested in this ability or burned when activating it increase the line of effect by 20ft. For each point of essence burned when activating this ability increase the damage dealt by 3d6 instead of 2d6. This raw influx of akashic power takes its toll on you however: for each essence burned this way, you take 1d6 untyped damage yourself.
Note that you could also have veils that only increase their effect by burning and not by investing (such burn effects would have to be almost spell-like in power to make them worthy of using). Essence burning veils could also be very thematic for Guru and Daevic (especially for Daevic if they also have a self damaging effect).
In Akashic Races, the Galma is a large size creature that may only use medium sized weapons. No issue there. What happens when Gala the Gamla picks up a couple of levels in Aegis and gains the powerful build customization?
Just by looking at it, it appears that Gala would be be able to use huge sized weapons without penalty, as the powerful build trait allows the use of weapons one size larger than the creature. Plus the imaginary fits as well.
Speaking of which, the gamala starts as large sized; can Gala be affected by enlarge and expansion effects? With a friendly caster, she can be huge sized at 1st level, and gargantuan at 7th (as a psychic warrior).
If this is okay with yawl, it is okay with me. I was just wondering about how the various listed items interacted.
Side note: Can normal giants benefit from the enlarge spell? As they are humanoids, I imagine they can.
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Design Manager
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In Akashic Races, the Galma is a large size creature that may only use medium sized weapons. No issue there. What happens when Gala the Gamla picks up a couple of levels in Aegis and gains the powerful build customization?
Just by looking at it, it appears that Gala would be be able to use huge sized weapons without penalty, as the powerful build trait allows the use of weapons one size larger than the creature. Plus the imaginary fits as well.
Speaking of which, the gamala starts as large sized; can Gala be affected by enlarge and expansion effects? With a friendly caster, she can be huge sized at 1st level, and gargantuan at 7th (as a psychic warrior).
If this is okay with yawl, it is okay with me. I was just wondering about how the various listed items interacted.
Side note: Can normal giants benefit from the enlarge spell? As they are humanoids, I imagine they can.
I'll review the verbage between the Gamla's undersized weapons ability and the Aegis ability, but basically the Gamla's weapon (barring any theoretical weird spells that increase its size without affecting the Gamla but still leave it wieldable) should always be appropriately sized for one size category smaller than the Gamla himself.
Currently, the Gamla has the humanoid subtype and so could be affected by both enlarge person and expansion, but there's a possibility that their subtype may change which could affect this. I'm doing some looking over of the new Bloodforge supplement that DSP is getting ready to release and making sure that there is consistency between creature types of certain hybrid races there and the akashic races. Assuming no changes, yeah, Gamla can get really big which is great for reach, but their weapon damage for anything other than natural attacks or unarmed strikes will remain the same as you'd see for any other creature.
As humanoids, normal giants should be affected by enlarge person, yes.
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Not official obviously, but I'd say Powerful Build would just up what she can naturally weild by one category. So normally she wields objects as a Medium creature, PB would up it to Large. Likewise enlarge person would make her size Huge, and also allow her to wield Large weapons. Combining both would make her Huge size and wielding Huge weapons.
Just my 2cp.
Found here.
The aegis gains the powerful build trait while wearing his astral suit. Whenever the aegis is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the aegis is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
The aegis is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him.The aegis can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
Emphasis mine. Now that I look at it, it is a little fuzzy if folks want to nit-pick. To me, the one size larger bit refers to the creature's size, and not the weapon size.
This is not an issue to me, as its a rather niche occurrence; one race (plus two monsters), one class, and one 2 point customization. As far as I know, Aegis is the only way anyone not a half-giant can get powerful build. Come to think of it, both the lamia and the centaur also have the undersized weapons racial quality.
I spent a couple minutes trying to work out the verbiage to mesh with 'galma's use weapons one size smaller than normal' but nothing I came up with work. But I'm not a paid writer/editor/game maker, either.
Ssalarn: enlarge person affects all humanoids, of all sub-types. Unless the new sub-type has special rules saying it doesn't (which, considering what you said, I imagine it will), changing the gamla's sub-type won't do anything
Othos: I think that's a easy fix, and will likely use it should this come up in my games. Right now, though, I have no issue letting a galma aegis weild huge sized weapons. Aegis is already only an good melee damage dealer, falling behind all dedicated melee damage dealers. As I said, the small bump in damage does not bother me.
Come to think of it, both the lamia and the centaur also have the undersized weapons racial quality.
Drider too.
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Design Manager
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Ssalarn: enlarge person affects all humanoids, of all sub-types. Unless the new sub-type has special rules saying it doesn't (which, considering what you said, I imagine it will), changing the gamla's sub-type won't do anything
My point was that the Gamla might not continue to be a humanoid (for example, monstrous humanoid is on the table).
Emphasis mine. Now that I look at it, it is a little fuzzy if folks want to nit-pick. To me, the one size larger bit refers to the creature's size, and not the weapon size.
This is not an issue to me, as its a rather niche occurrence; one race (plus two monsters), one class, and one 2 point customization. As far as I know, Aegis is the only way anyone not a half-giant can get powerful build. Come to think of it, both the lamia and the centaur also have the undersized weapons racial quality.
I spent a couple minutes trying to work out the verbiage to mesh with 'galma's use weapons one size smaller than normal' but nothing I came up with work. But I'm not a paid writer/editor/game maker, either.
As you noted, there are existing creatures from the core product line with the same property that would probably have the same issue.
Here's how I see it (which being as I'm a lead designer for the company writing both materials should count for something ;P): Undersized Weapons states "...[their] ability to wield manufactured weapons is determined as though the Gamla were one size category smaller than they actually are" and the Aegis ability states "The aegis can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty". The Powerful Build ability allows the Gamla to wield weapons as one size larger than they are, which would normally be large, but Undersized Weapons requires him to determine the results of that ability as though he were one size smaller (medium). So a Gamla with Powerful Build may wield large-sized manufactured weapons.
So to break that down point by point:
1) Powerful Build affects your ability to wield weapons, determining it as though you were one size larger.
2) Undersized weapons also affects your ability to wield weapons, determing it as though it was one size smaller.
3) Both of these abilities would take effect, essentially canceling each other out.
Hello again.
As I was converting this NPC into a vizier, I decided to pick the Path of the Crafter, since it suited her best, thematically. Then I stumbled into these extra powers:
“At 5th level, the vizier gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat.
At 9th level, he gains Forge Ring as a bonus feat.
At 13th level, he gains Craft Staff as a bonus feat. “ - pg. 5, Akashic Mysteries – Vizier
I recalled from the top of my mind that almost if not all wondrous items required a spell to be made, most rings also did, and all staves do, but there was some alternatives to these requirement. From the Core Rulebook pg. 549:
“Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.”
So, okay, it's only a +5 DC penalty to craft most magical items, but since it's a free feat, it's all good.
The problem is in the next sentence on the same paragraph:
“In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.”
While “A ring’s ability is usually activated by a spoken command word” (pg. 478) and wondrous items are “Usually use-activated or command word” (pg. 496), “Staves use the spell trigger activation method” (pg 491). Meaning, there's no work around it, the Vizir can't craft a staff unless he has “access through another magic item or spellcaster” (pg. 549), which is quite a bummer.
So I was wondering:
- Are there, by any chance, some akashic-crafted items on the way? Maybe on the last part of the Akashic Mysteries subscription?
- Can the vizir perhaps replace the spell requirement for having a veil equipped during the crafting, with such and such essence invested, or maybe even bound, as requirements?
- Or he's really stuck with needing a wizard buddy to cook his magical gears? Maybe you could move things around a bit, and give him wondrous at 5th, acess to universal items (from Ultimate Psionics pg. 405) at 9th and rings at 13th? Being able to craft both magical and psionics items seems very appropriate to an akashic crafter!
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On a side note, Cuirass of Confidence, on the essence description, is cut short:
“Essence: For each point of essence invested in this ability you gain a +1 insight bonus to Diplomacy checks against any creature that has” (pg. 18)
Best regards,
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Design Manager
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We caught a couple items that disappeared somewhere between the final playtest and the release and we'll getting those fixed.
Curiass of Confidence should read "For each point of Essence invested in this ability you gain a +1 insight bonus to Diplomacy checks against any creature that has been affected by this Veil’s primary ability within the past 24 hours. ". Basically it's your chance to improve their attitude enough that they still like you when the Curiass' ability wears off.
Vizier is missing a line which says he can bypass the normal restriction on spell trigger/activation items by adding 3+spell level to the crafting DC, and uses his class level as caster level for staves. For rings, rods, and wondrous items, the normal crafting rules already have him covered and are part of why he gets a nice bonus on his crafting checks.
We had to do some last minute fixes to some other items and an old version of the document accidentally crept in to a couple of the affected items, but these will be addressed when we update the .pdf before the compiled collection is released.
Also, yes, there are akashic magic items on the way and any veil that grants an SLA can be used to qualify as casting that spell for crafting purposes.
Think of it like this:
1. Normal circumstance: large size, UW makes that medium sized weapons.
2. Aegis case: large size -> PB makes it huge -> UW makes that large sized weapons.
That's all well and good, provided they 'stack', instead of 'replace'. The literature has me inclining toward the latter.
How I picture things is a transparent hand encasing the creature's normal hand (and the rest of the body). Just like a fireball doesn't care what size the caster is, the astral suit doesn't care how big/oddly-shaped the user's hands are.
However, I have taken enough time up on the Akashic Mysteries thread, when this should really be asked of the the Psionic threads. Thanks for yawl's insights!
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Design Manager
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Hey everyone, here's that errata log for the Vizier I promised you. These changes will all be added to the .pdf before compilation or print:
pg. 4 - Eldritch Insight says "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane spell-caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats and abilities"; it should read: "The Vizier’s class levels count as arcane caster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats, and for other caster level based abilities, such as determining your caster level when using a stave".
pg. 5 - Path of the Crafter should read "The vizier gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his class level on all skill checks made as part of the crafting process, and can bypass the normal restrictions for spell prerequisites on spell trigger and spell activation items by adding 3 + spell level to the crafting DC".
pg. 13 paragraph 3 - Add the line "Unless otherwise noted, investing or reallocating essence to or from a valid receptacle is a swift action.
pg.18 - Coward's Boots should read "Class: Guru, Vizier Slot: Feet
pg. 18 - Cuirass of Confidence cuts off in the middle of the Essence description. It should read "For each point of essence invested in this ability you gain a +1 insight bonus to diplomacy checks against any creature that has been affected by this veil’s primary ability within the past 24 hours."
pg. 18 - pg. 18 - Dark Lord's Ring of Essence-Binding should direct you to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary, not the Core Rulebook. Add the following after the entry for the plague zombie template "The zombie rot inflicted by this creature dissipates after 24 hours, or when you reshape this veil. Any plague zombies created as a result of being infected also die as the force animating them dissipates." Add the following line to the bind entry "Because the dark energies animating this creature are magical simulations, this Wight cannot create spawn."
pg. 20-21 - Hand Cannons description entry should read as follows "Massive cylinders of whirling energy surround the arms of anyone wielding this potent Veil. While the Hand Cannons are manifested you gain the ability to make a special ranged weapon attack targeting touch AC with a range increment of 20 feet that deals 2d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage. You can attack with this ability as many times in a round as your base attack bonus allows, and this ability can be modified by feats and effects which normally affect ranged weapon attacks, like Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. You must have at least one free hand to attack with this veil, and you cannot attack with this veil in the same round you attack with any other weapon. The wearer may choose to use their veilweaver level in place of their base attack bonus to determine their to-hit and other abilities of this veil."
pg. 26 - Remove the word "melee" from the Storm Gauntlets wrist bind entry.
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Design Manager
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Nix on the Hand Cannons targeting touch AC. I've retracted that elsewhere, but unfortunately Paizo's window has closed. Apparently that was one Jeremy had pulled from the correct log and it was I who was confused. It shouldn't have touch AC and the option to use veilweaver level in place of BAB. We (correctly) removed the touch AC mechanic when we added the BAB boost. The important (and correct) part of that errata entry is noting that Hand Cannons count as weapons for feats and effects.
I know that the vanilla Vizier is arcane-tuned, and my suggestion of allowing psionic crafting would probably need to be balanced on a bunch of aspects, specially the eldritch insight feature.
But how about a psionic archetype of the Vizier, just replacing all arcane/divine related features for psionics related ones? Sounds balanced enough.
No idea what would replace Forge Ring on the path of the crafter, though.
Well, keep up the good work, it's very interesting seeing the rough edges being polished as the book is developed.
Any ETA on the Guru and Daevic Warrior?
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Design Manager
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I know that the vanilla Vizier is arcane-tuned, and my suggestion of allowing psionic crafting would probably need to be balanced on a bunch of aspects, specially the eldritch insight feature.
But how about a psionic archetype of the Vizier, just replacing all arcane/divine related features for psionics related ones? Sounds balanced enough.
No idea what would replace Forge Ring on the path of the crafter, though.
Well, keep up the good work, it's very interesting seeing the rough edges being polished as the book is developed.
Any ETA on the Guru and Daevic Warrior?
I believe Guru should be mid to late November, Daevic roughly the same time frame in December. January will feature the last supplemental entry with archetypes, spells, items, races, and a brief entry with a kind of "super archetype" for replacing any class' spellcasting feature with veilweaving.
Note that all of these timeframes may be subject to delay. Jeremy is our main facilitator for layout and he's in the middle of moving, and we had to wait to see how subscription numbers were shaping up before we could start making decisions on art for the new races. Those factors combined with the fact that the holidays typically create huge delays for everyone could end up creating month+ delays, so while we've got a roll-out plan, I don't want to over-promise during that special time of year when circumstances are guaranteed to do their damnedest to make a liar out of you.
Psionic archetypes are in the works. We've already got some going the other way for the Aegis, Cryptic, and others up in the playtest.
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Design Manager
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Huh. I really wouldn't have gotten "thrown weapons" from, well, anything about the Desire passion. As far as I can tell Daevic Aspect is the only ranged-supporting element; the close weapons focus and the passion melds that focus on combat maneuvers seem like an up-close-and-personal combat controller, and if the Daevic Aspect worked with that I would say it's actually pretty decent on that front. Since you say you're working on it I assume you've already got your ideas, but my suggestion would be to give Desire a more close-combat Daevic Aspect and create a more ranged-oriented Passion to use the current "ranged bonus and flight" Aspect.
Admittedly, this is because I got enamored with the idea of making a Hand Cannon/Armory Of The Conqueror Daevic for THE BIGGEST GUNS and only then noticed that there's really no other ranged-combat support in the class beyond that one Aspect. :)
Yeah, originaly the idea was to support weapons like daggers, starknives, etc. where the chassis would lend itself readily to stabbing someone in the face either up close or at a distance. WHile that was certainly possible it kept making the build seem busy and unfocused, or just kind of directionless. I've been trying to get some time set aside to get the revamped version out, hopefully that will strike you a bit more positively.
I was looking on the guru playtest and I noticed that it has a veil that seems like it is specifically written for multiclass guru/psion(metabolist) charcters. Why is that? It just seemed a little weird.
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Design Manager
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I was looking on the guru playtest and I noticed that it has a veil that seems like it is specifically written for multiclass guru/psion(metabolist) charcters. Why is that? It just seemed a little weird.
One of the really cool things about Magic of Incarnum was that it really was incredibly friendly for multiclassing or dipping via feats. I wanted to emulate that a bit in Akashic Mysteries. The Circlet of Brass, which debuted with the Vizier, was one of these veils, a veil that was really more useful for Vizier/Wizards and Guru/Clerics than straight veilweavers. Metabolist's Scarf was originally the Staunching Scarf and did not provide the boost to the Metabolic Healing ability that it does now, but it seemed like a good opportunity to "test the waters" and see if a more specific veil might be something players would be interested in. The Guru made a good testing ground for this, because his veils are more focused on broadening his capabilities and letting him adopt specific roles more competently. They aren't the core of his character the way they are for the Vizier. If people like it, I'll do more, and if people tend to just think it's "weird" then I'll avoid it and focus on more generic veils for future supplements.
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^ agreed ^
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Design Manager
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I knew there was a reason I liked you guys :)
Speaking of the Guru, he is in Jeremy's capable hands getting ready for the November release, but I thought I'd ask you guys a quick question:
There's already a feat to allow any character to break the normal alignment restriction and pick up evil veils. This tends to be a fairly common feat for players with Viziers to grab because there are several evil veils that are pretty decent. The Guru kind of goes the opposite direction, where he's got several veils with the good descriptor. Should there be a feat that goes the other way and allows you to grab good veils regardless of alignment alongside a small bonus? There's kind of a history in fantasy and popular media of getting your hands dirty for the greater good, but tropes of evil guys using goodly methods to get their way are a little less common (though as I write that, I realize that that is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil).
So what do you guys think? Should there be a good counterpart to Tainted Chakra added to the supplemental release? Also, would you guys like more veils like Metabolist's Scarf, maybe one for each Psionic Discipline? If that's something you guys would be interested in, I can add them to the supplemental release with the archetypes and compiled veil list, which will also ensure they're all added to the final release for all subscribers.
I would be in favor of it. I can think of quite a few PCs I've played in the past who had an open facade of goodness as a convenient cover for being evil. How many evil clerics carry around fake good holy symbols, for example? Almost all of mine.
I knew there was a reason I liked you guys :)
Speaking of the Guru, he is in Jeremy's capable hands getting ready for the November release, but I thought I'd ask you guys a quick question:
There's already a feat to allow any character to break the normal alignment restriction and pick up evil veils. This tends to be a fairly common feat for players with Viziers to grab because there are several evil veils that are pretty decent. The Guru kind of goes the opposite direction, where he's got several veils with the good descriptor. Should there be a feat that goes the other way and allows you to grab good veils regardless of alignment alongside a small bonus? There's kind of a history in fantasy and popular media of getting your hands dirty for the greater good, but tropes of evil guys using goodly methods to get their way are a little less common (though as I write that, I realize that that is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil).
So what do you guys think? Should there be a good counterpart to Tainted Chakra added to the supplemental release? Also, would you guys like more veils like Metabolist's Scarf, maybe one for each Psionic Discipline? If that's something you guys would be interested in, I can add them to the supplemental release with the archetypes and compiled veil list, which will also ensure they're all added to the final release for all subscribers.
Just because Paizo's vision of evil is stupid, shallow, and crippled doesn't mean yours has to be. Evil uses what works. If what works is laced with Good energies, whatever. Apply some topical ground-puppy cream to the skin rashes and continue your plot.
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Design Manager
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Point(s) taken! I have to admit, the more I think about it the more I love the idea of a Guru (Sineater)/Cleric of Asmodeus strolling around in a Martyr's Toga and a Circlet of Brass extolling the "virtues" of his faith to the unwashed masses. I'll get something written up and add it to the Supplemental release.
To make it a little bit sinister, I'm thinking that maybe the feat will also make you "ping" as one step closer to good for each veil you wear with the good descriptor? So, basically, a Lawful Evil Cleric could hide his aura and alignment behind the good vibes being given off by his aligned veils. Thoughts?
Honestly, I'd just strip out alignment restrictions completely. They often don't make much sense in world (fighting using bleeding attacks is inherently evil? animating dead using a neutral source of energy is evil? what?), and just help to reinforce True Neutral being an objectively stronger alignment to have and otherwise push alignment even more towards being a mechanical decision rather than a purely flavor decision.
The less alignment affects your options, the better.
Despite being a fan of alignment myself, I gotta side with Aratrok. I can see a handful of exceptions, but for the most part I can't see a reason why the use of the power over the nature of the power itself shouldn't be the main reason it's evil. Evil should be primarily about intent, rather than nature or origin. (Fiends and such excepted, of course.)
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Design Manager
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Honestly, I'd just strip out alignment restrictions completely. They often don't make much sense in world (fighting using bleeding attacks is inherently evil? animating dead using a neutral source of energy is evil? what?), and just help to reinforce True Neutral being an objectively stronger alignment to have and otherwise push alignment even more towards being a mechanical decision rather than a purely flavor decision.
The less alignment affects your options, the better.
I did a lot of evaluation on the subject of alignment restrictions before starting the project, and I decided to go ahead and keep them but to make them as accessible and unobstructive as possible. The reality is that alignment mechanics are inextricably woven into the fabric of Pathfinder at this point, and I prefer not to pretend that that isn't the case. Utilizing alignment instead of ignoring it also lets me do cool things, like the above idea of a cleric of Asmodeus wrapping himself in good aligned veils to fool any pesky paladins that may be nosing into his affairs, or a goodly Vizier cloaking himself in evil energy to fit in with a corrupt ruling class.
As to the examples given: making an enemy bleed isn't necessarily evil, but cloaking yourself in a shroud that makes everyone, friend, foe, child, or animal, bleed to death from even tiny cuts is. Similarly, the Pathfinder standard is that undead and the acts of creating them are evil, without exception. They even errata'd the old JuJu Oracle specifically to reflect this. In the interest of keeping consistent with the game I'm designing for, I need to acknowledge that standard and work within it (at least in products where I'm not specifically going against the established order). When you use an evil veil, you're literally infusing your own life energy with malicious intent, vile thoughts, and bilious regard. That's why you need a feat to use those veils if you're not evil, you have to be able to completely adopt that kind of mindset without actually losing yourself to it. Of course, I get that spending a feat just to use a few veils isn't going to sit well with some players, which is why I made sure to add some other perks.
There's also the fact that some of the lore of the system and other design pieces that haven't rolled out yet, like our akashic outsiders the daeva and some of the archetypes and items, utilize alignement in some way and have that central pivot point of the alignment restrictions informing their flavor and mechanics. Ultimately, I want the player to be able to play the character they want to play, but I also want that character to fit within the framework of a world where good and evil aren't ideas, they are cosmic forces in their own right, universal absolutes that have their own drives and are instantly recognizable for what they are. If I really worried that True Neutral characters everywhere was going to be an issue, I'd be more likely to tighten alignment restrictions to where your alignment must match that of a veil you want to shape, rather than loosen them completely.