How do I build a Mystic Theurge?

[Harrison]

The party of PCs for an upcoming campaign I'm going to be in is seriously lacking in magical talent (a melee fighter, a ranged fighter, a gunslinger, and a witch that'll be focused on battlefield control).

My first instinct upon hearing this is to go Mystic Theurge (because having access to both Wizard and Cleric spells sound very helpful in this situation) using the SLA ruling to get into it really quickly, but I've yet to find a Mystic Theurge guide that explains how best to build one.

The campaign will most-likely run the full 20 levels and I don't think I'll have problems getting access to spells for any class that needs spellbooks.

[Corvino]

I can recommend Pupsocket's excellent Early-Entry Prestige Class Guide, available here. It has a list of the divine and arcane SLAs available to help you qualify early.

I'd tend to go with prepared casters like the Wizard and Cleric for a Mystic Theurge in order to get the earliest possible access to spells, and to favor the arcane aspect of the class. This way you get a Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 9 that casts as a level 19 Wizard and level 11 Cleric. You only need to start with 14 Wisdom, and can increase it to 16 via items to get your 6th level divine spells. Have decent Int and use Arcane offensivesly, Divine for buffs, heals and no-save spells.

[Deadmanwalking]

Wizard/Cleric is very solid, and should be built as Corvino notes.

The other build that gets floated is the Cleric/Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer who casts all their spells from Wisdom, and can go either Cleric 11/Sorcerer 19 or Sorcerer 12/Cleric 18 depending on your mood and preferences.

Those are likely the best two builds.

[Ascalaphus]

Another sometimes-seen variant is Oracle/Sorcerer, but that's painful because they're both slow-ish spell progression AND your oracle mysteries and particularly curse don't progress well. You're throwing away a lot of class features.

Conversely, Cleric/Wizard have very few class features aside from spellcasting. You miss out on some of the advanced school and domain powers, but some schools and domains have their best stuff at level 1 anyway (Admixture, Foresight, Travel, Liberation, Trickery).

[Harrison]

Corvino wrote:

I can recommend Pupsocket's excellent Early-Entry Prestige Class Guide, available here. It has a list of the divine and arcane SLAs available to help you qualify early.

I'd tend to go with prepared casters like the Wizard and Cleric for a Mystic Theurge in order to get the earliest possible access to spells, and to favor the arcane aspect of the class. This way you get a Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 9 that casts as a level 19 Wizard and level 11 Cleric. You only need to start with 14 Wisdom, and can increase it to 16 via items to get your 6th level divine spells. Have decent Int and use Arcane offensivesly, Divine for buffs, heals and no-save spells.

I took a look at that guide, but I'm still not sure I understand how I can meet the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge by 3rd level, if I was to go with Wizard and Cleric; the best I could figure was go Agathion-Blooded Aasimar for Summon Nature's Ally II (divine) and then pick up the Trickery Domain for Mirror Image (the guide says divine, but Mirror Image is only on the Bard and Wizard/Sorcerer spell lists, making it arcane).

Is there any other way or is that it?

[Sarrah]

Mirror Image is a divine SLA because it comes from the Cleric class.

[roguerouge]

If you go straight cleric or oracle, your party won't be particularly short on casting ability, with 40% of your party as casters and much of arcane and divine covered. Will you have access to every spell in the game? No. But you'll be fine. If you WANT to play mystic theurge, great, but you don't have to.

[Arlow]

There is no more restriction on caracter minimum lv 5 for prestige class in pathfinder?

[Deadmanwalking]

Arlow wrote:

There is no more restriction on caracter minimum lv 5 for prestige class in pathfinder?

Not technically. There are a lot of restrictions like "Must be able to cast 3rd level spells" that amount to a 5th level restrictions for most characters...but a recent FAQ made it so that Spell Like Abilities count for such prerequisites, allowing early entry to a number of Prestige Classes. This makes those Prestige Classes much better choices...if you have such an ability.

[Ascalaphus]

Harrison wrote:

Corvino wrote:

I can recommend Pupsocket's excellent Early-Entry Prestige Class Guide, available here. It has a list of the divine and arcane SLAs available to help you qualify early.

I'd tend to go with prepared casters like the Wizard and Cleric for a Mystic Theurge in order to get the earliest possible access to spells, and to favor the arcane aspect of the class. This way you get a Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 9 that casts as a level 19 Wizard and level 11 Cleric. You only need to start with 14 Wisdom, and can increase it to 16 via items to get your 6th level divine spells. Have decent Int and use Arcane offensivesly, Divine for buffs, heals and no-save spells.

I took a look at that guide, but I'm still not sure I understand how I can meet the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge by 3rd level, if I was to go with Wizard and Cleric; the best I could figure was go Agathion-Blooded Aasimar for Summon Nature's Ally II (divine) and then pick up the Trickery Domain for Mirror Image (the guide says divine, but Mirror Image is only on the Bard and Wizard/Sorcerer spell lists, making it arcane).

Is there any other way or is that it?

It's slightly the other way around. Trickery's Copycat power is divine because it's given by a divine spellcasting class; but it's level 2 because that's the level of the spell.

So you should NOT be taking the Agathion Aasimar, since that one is also divine. All the others are arcane, so they're fine.

Also, note that the PrC requires you to have Knowledge Religion&Arcana 3 before entry, so entry can't be done before level 4.

[mcbobbo]

So we just looked at this for Oracle/Sorc. The general idea was Aasimar (+2 Wis/ +2 Cha), starts with daylight SLA for Arcane. Two levels of one (probably Oracle), one level of the other, third level Aasimar racial feat for divine SLA, fourth level as MT.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

I'm actually working on such a build right now.

Half Elf, alt racial: drow magic
20 pt buy: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10
-you can also go tiefling here, the stats end up being pretty similar with either Str 9 or Dex 16 Cha 8

Lv1: Cleric; trickery domain or fate inquisition
Lv2: Wizard; any school you want, pick one with a power that doesn't depend on wizard level
Lv3: Wizard
Lv4-13: Mystic Theurge
Lv12+: Wizard

You gain new wizard spell levels at the same rate you would if you were a straight sorcerer. You also get the cleric spells only 2 levels late and do eventually get access to 6th level cleric slots, so you can still use Heal.

[K177Y C47]

If you really want to be cute, after taking 2 levels of MT, go into Evangelist. This gives you some sped up boons (which are actually kinda nice) and most importantly, you can do some really rediculous things with MT and Evangelist (liek having level 9 cleric and wizard spells)

[mcbobbo]

K177Y C47 wrote:

If you really want to be cute, after taking 2 levels of MT, go into Evangelist. This gives you some sped up boons (which are actually kinda nice) and most importantly, you can do some really rediculous things with MT and Evangelist (liek having level 9 cleric and wizard spells)

I had that thought as well. I'm assuming your Evangelist linked class is MT, yeah?

[andreww]

K177Y C47 wrote:

If you really want to be cute, after taking 2 levels of MT, go into Evangelist. This gives you some sped up boons (which are actually kinda nice) and most importantly, you can do some really rediculous things with MT and Evangelist (liek having level 9 cleric and wizard spells)

This arguably doesn't work as you cannot gain more than 10 effective levels of spell progression from mystic theurge.

[Slacker2010]

K177Y C47 wrote:

If you really want to be cute, after taking 2 levels of MT, go into Evangelist. This gives you some sped up boons (which are actually kinda nice) and most importantly, you can do some really rediculous things with MT and Evangelist (liek having level 9 cleric and wizard spells)

You lose one level of spell casting again when you get into Evangelist. This hurts the MT that is already behind.

Talk to your GM first, If he allows Evangelist to advance MT beyond the normal 10 levels of MT then I would definitely suggest doing this. If not, Im not sure I would give up the spellcasting level.

[Marc Radle]

Is non-Paizo material allowed?

If so, you might check out the Theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press

Be a theurge without having to multi class! :)

[Rory]

Here is my PFS Mystic Theurge:

Rivi of the Two Worlds

S: 10 D: 16 C: 14 I: 16 W: 14 Ch: 8 (20 pt basic teifling)

Level 1: Wizard (Conjuration Specialist / Teleportation Subschool)
Level 2: Cleric of Nivi Rhombodazzle (Trickery, Community)
Level 3: Wizard
Level 4: Mystic Theurge
Level 5: Mystic Theurge

Traits:
Magical Lineage? (+2 CL for wizard)
Reactionary (+2 Init)

Feats:
Spell Focus Conjuration (wizard 1) <--- Built for PFS
Acadamae Graduate (1st)
Augment Summoning (3rd)

Strengths:
- standard action summons via Acadamae Graduate (assume he is always fatigued)
- standard action remove fatigue via Community domain (3+WIS per day)
- gains new arcane spells on even levels
- gains new divine spells on odd levels

******************** background included for fun *******************

Rivi was found in the depths of the earth by a family of deep gnomes. They were astonished and wary of the babe with horns in his head. The matriarch of the family, an accomplished sage of the gnome community, took Rivi before the village council. After a lengthy debate, the council decided, or was forced by the sage, to gamble and allow the child to live. The requirements were that the matriarch sage would care for Rivi as if it were her own, and send him to learn at their temple to Nivi Rhombodazzle, the gnome deity.

Rivi grew up under the tender guidance of his gnomish mother. She taught him the ways of magic, and how to summon creatures to assist in life as well as summoning them quickly in defense. Rivi also learned the ways of the gnomish community through the temple. Although his teachings were focused on the community aspect, Rivi had a knack for trickery as well.

The gamble the gnomes took to adopt Rivi paid off when a fiery salamander wandered into their village underground. The gnomes were no match for the fiery aura and were going to have to abandon their village. Rivi stepped up and confronted the salamander. Even though his clothes burned, his skin remained untouched. Rivi summoned forth the largest pony he could muster and fed the salamander. The salamander was satiated and left the village. The village cheered and praised Rivi for his bravery and deed!

However, as gambles sometimes go, the next day, the fiery salamander brought back more of his kin. The gnome village had no choice to be abandoned and the gnomes fled. Rivi's mother died in the attack. Many of the people blamed Rivi for causing a swarm of salamanders to descend on their village, cursing his name with no end. Rivi was forced out of the village.

And so, Rivi wanders the surface of the world, away from the depths of the earth and his gnomish community.

[Akerlof]

Just my two cents: If you're going Cleric/Wizard Mystic Theurge, you're going to have to pick one of those classes as your primary (for stat and level advancement.) Every build suggestion has done so already, but I want to state it explicitly: Go Wizard as your primary class. Trying to be a pure caster as a Cleric is a little painful for quite a few levels since they're designed to do more than just cast spells. Wizards, on the other hand, really are meant to do nothing but cast spells. So your experience is better as Wizard primary instead of Cleric primary. (I tried it, and kept thinking "this would be just a little bit easier/more useful/more fun if I was a Wizard first, Cleric second.) It's not unplayable, but it feels like you're swimming upstream.

If you want to be a pure caster as a cleric, try the Evangelist archetype which doesn't work out so well for early entry MT since you only have one domain. Trickery isn't bad for domain spells, but there are better ones.

[Gabriel Worldwalker]

Harrison wrote:

The party of PCs for an upcoming campaign I'm going to be in is seriously lacking in magical talent (a melee fighter, a ranged fighter, a gunslinger, and a witch that'll be focused on battlefield control).

This is similar to my situation in our next campaign, but we will only be getting to about 15th level before it ends. There will be a a melee fighter, archer ranger, witch and me. I think the witch covers more of the arcane side, so I am building an aasimar mystic theurge that will be:

Cleric of Sinashakti 1 / Sorcerer 1 (Empyreal so he uses Wisdom for both classes) / Cleric x2 / MT x10 / Cleric (rest)

That way he is half a level back on the Cleric, which is his main area, but is a backup for the arcane. Sinashakti gives him a short bow and decent domains. The other &deity choice would be Erastil which is long bow. Also, aasimar gives the arcance 2nd level spell requirement so only 1 level of sorcerer (arcane) is needed to qualify.

[London Duke]

Just play an ancient lorekeeper oracle.

[Beopere]

Rory, I think you mean magical knack and not magical lineage.

[Dustyboy]

Don't forget the evangelist PRC, 1 feat is worth everything you gain from that, It basically stacks on top of your theurge level so going mystic theurge 1/evangelist 10 would be the equivalent of mystic theurge 10, but you get 3/4 BAB and a bunch of goodies

[Deadmanwalking]

Dustyboy wrote:

Don't forget the evangelist PRC, 1 feat is worth everything you gain from that, It basically stacks on top of your theurge level so going mystic theurge 1/evangelist 10 would be the equivalent of mystic theurge 10, but you get 3/4 BAB and a bunch of goodies

This delays casting another level. That really hurts on a Mystic Theurge.

[Gregory Connolly]

If I knew I had a Witch in the party I would be tempted to make a Half-Drow Cleric 1/ White Haired Witch 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Pathfinder Savant 7

The logic here being that spells are expensive and that if you share it helps both of you. I know Wizard/Sorcerer is a nice list that you want access to, but if you can pick up Travel as well as Trickery and grab the best spells through Pathfinder Savant it should be good enough.

[Harrison]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

If I knew I had a Witch in the party I would be tempted to make a Half-Drow Cleric 1/ White Haired Witch 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Pathfinder Savant 7

The logic here being that spells are expensive and that if you share it helps both of you. I know Wizard/Sorcerer is a nice list that you want access to, but if you can pick up Travel as well as Trickery and grab the best spells through Pathfinder Savant it should be good enough.

Which class would you pick for the Pathfinder Savant's spell progression (since I'm assuming you can't choose Mystic Theurge) and which Wizard/Sorcerer spells would you recommend picking up? According to the Esoteric Magic class feature, you only get 6...

[Dustyboy]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Dustyboy wrote:

Don't forget the evangelist PRC, 1 feat is worth everything you gain from that, It basically stacks on top of your theurge level so going mystic theurge 1/evangelist 10 would be the equivalent of mystic theurge 10, but you get 3/4 BAB and a bunch of goodies

This delays casting another level. That really hurts on a Mystic Theurge.

Using the right race it balances out pretty heavy IMHO

Personally I've always been a fan of the wisdom sorc bloodline and cleric as a combo

[Gregory Connolly]

Harrison wrote:

Which class would you pick for the Pathfinder Savant's spell progression (since I'm assuming you can't choose Mystic Theurge) and which Wizard/Sorcerer spells would you recommend picking up? According to the Esoteric Magic class feature, you only get 6...

I would probably choose to level my witch casting, but if I felt the group needed Mass Heal or something going cleric can work just as well.

There are Guild rules in Inner Sea Magic that allow you to gain benefits based on your fame, these are very powerful on a Mystic Theurge. By getting Eclectic Training and Esoteric Training you can end up with the spellcasting of a level 16 Witch and level 17 Cleric or vice versa. If you skip Pathfinder Savant for say 3 levels of Cleric and 4 levels of Bloatmage you can get level 17 casting for 9th level spells in both.

If I was Taking Witch up I would grab Limited Wish, Clone, Mind Blank, Simulacrum, Project Image, Spell Turning. Something like that, I haven't done the math. If I was taking Cleric up it would be more like Permanency, Contingency, Mind Blank, Simulacrum, Chain Lightning, Reverse Gravity.

[wraithstrike]

The witch has a few of the cleric's healing(status removal) spells, and I use it as my default MT. Of course you may know something about the player that we don't.

[Atarlost]

You might also consider the ACG playtest Shaman. The druid list has ample blasting and control, which witches aren't great at, and the shaman adds certain key cleric spells. With what condition removers the witch can cover and the witch handling arcane utility, debuffing, and save or loses you should be fine.

[Shfish]

Harrison wrote:

The party of PCs for an upcoming campaign I'm going to be in is seriously lacking in magical talent (a melee fighter, a ranged fighter, a gunslinger, and a witch that'll be focused on battlefield control).

My first instinct upon hearing this is to go Mystic Theurge (because having access to both Wizard and Cleric spells sound very helpful in this situation) using the SLA ruling to get into it really quickly, but I've yet to find a Mystic Theurge guide that explains how best to build one.

The campaign will most-likely run the full 20 levels and I don't think I'll have problems getting access to spells for any class that needs spellbooks.

I assume no mythic?

I built one for a mythic game and really liked the trickery aasimar variant build. I took 2 sorcerer 1 cleric and MT the rest of the way. Effectively I am equal in my casting levels in each...every odd level I gain a new spell level for both. I will tell you that if this is a prefab adventure it will hurt from levels 5-8 as they always assume you can handle the minion rush with a fireball in at least a few encounters, and most of your good AoE happens in those levels. So be ready with maybe a scroll when you hit near 5 as a back up.
If you can do mythic the archmage dualed with hierophant can make for some very versatile casting if you pick their abilities that let you pick any spell on your spell list...

[K177Y C47]

Atarlost wrote:

You might also consider the ACG playtest Shaman. The druid list has ample blasting and control, which witches aren't great at, and the shaman adds certain key cleric spells. With what condition removers the witch can cover and the witch handling arcane utility, debuffing, and save or loses you should be fine.

The Shaman is actually really good for covering a lot of bases. It's spell list (druid spell list) as you mentioned is good for blasting and Battlefield control, but the ability to have your main spirit and having a spirit you can change every day gives you alot of versatility. Additionally, having the ability to spontaniously cast your "domain" spell gives you some real good versatility.

Personally I was always a fan of the water spirit as a main. The ability to see through any fog effect is VERY good, scry is nice, and the biggest thing is that they can prepare their spirit spells using their spell slots, which gives them some nice versatility.

[Harrison]

So as a follow-up, I decided to go with a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge and have taken the Void school and Travel and Trickery domains.

I'm not sure which element I want to take for my opposed element and I'd definitely like some advice on feat selection; I'd like to do some of the typical God Wizard stuff: battlefield control, summoning, a bit of blasting, and maybe some item crafting. My current thoughts for feats looks like this:

1) False Focus*
Wiz 1) Scribe Scroll
3) Craft Wondrous Items
5) ???
7) Piercing Spell
9) Opposition Research
11) Heighten Spell
13) Quicken Spell
15) Spell Perfection
Wiz 5) True Name
17) Spell Penetration
19) ???

*: False Focus is paired with a 100g Holy Symbol Tattoo to cover almost all my material and divine focus requirements.