Goblin Squad Member
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Before we start I just like that mention this is my personal opinion on this thing and some ideas taken from Dofus about breeding. I would like people to provide practical opinions about breeding.
In Dofus I used to be a large scale breeder, In that game the mount that everybody used has to be breed by a breeder. They are call Dragonturkey(DT/Chocobo) for short. There is several key points about breeding that stand out.
1) Infrastructure 2)Mount 3)Time
Let's start with infrastructure.
The most basic thing you need infrastructure wise is:
1) Shed 2) Paddock 2) Breeding item
1)Shed: This is where your mount can rest up after training in the paddock. The shed is also where your mount gives birth and where you store your mount. In Dofus shed is not a building rather it is sort of character space for mount.
If we translate that to PFO one could say we will need to build shed for the mount we are breeding and also they could have limited space to avoid abused. I don't know we could have a separate building for when mount giving birth?
2) and 3) kinda go together so I'll explain it together. In simpler term each paddock has limited space for the number of mounts you can train in it at any given time. And, each breeding item increase certain statuses on the mount you want to increase so you can continue breeding. Every time a mount interacts with a breeding item it gains tiredness, hence it have to rest in shed. As the mount gain tiredness the status it gains also increases by x%. I'll use Dofus as an example since there is number we can use. A full tiredness amount has a tired value of 240 so to reduce the tiredness it have to rest a day/24 hours to clear the tiredness bar.
PFO could use different kind of food for mount to gain maturity? or for it to gain the status in other means. or just have different kind of paddock that give different status and the mount is require to train in there for X number of hours.
if you like more detail version about how Dofus does its breeding here is a link.
http://impsvillage.com/forums/topic/26984-down-and-dirty-guide-to-turkeys/
Next is mount.
In Dofus mounts are split into 3 key type of mount each gives a special status or purpose.
1) Wild 2) Pure 3) Strip
Before anyone can ride a mount a breeder has to go through a ridiculous trial to gain the mount taming ability. Then they have to go catch the type of wild mount so they can breed the wild mount. where the new generation can be mounted.
In Dofus mounts are split into 10 generations where odd generations give pure mounts and even generations give strip mounts. And, each mount has a family tree that goes back 4 generations. So, to give a higher % getting a mount you wanted. breeder tends to interbreed the mount so that the family tree is pure. In simplest terms it is easier to deal with if you know what mount you are getting.
In short, pure mount give single status, and strip mount give a mix of 2 status. I'll just quickly cover gestation period of mount 'cus is important. In Dofus the gestation period of a mount is 72 hours for 1st generation then increases by 12 hours every successive generation.
I think PFO can use similar system for different type of mount/pet etc. this system sounds hard but it really is simple yet consumes a lot of time, win win either way as far as content goes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like to see active mount breeding as a part of the update that adds in mounts (whenever we get that, though that'll be something that likely happens early on). Horse ranches make a good PoI, and breeding mechanics can be quite complex and rewarding to master (as you show in your post).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mount Breeding is also a feature in Wurm Online. When CotP was giving me a tour of their facilities there, they were very proud of their horse breeding "ranch".
This is the type of feature that could, if done right, keep a not insignificant number of people very, very engaged.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's interesting to read how other games have designed mount breeding businesses.
It's mounts are used for fast travel on say roads and other uses eg hauling and possibly one day cavalry (destriers) in armies and then "exotic" mounts/creatures...
You'd probably need mounts to have wear and tear to keep the business profitable. Maybe a fairly long gestation time to producing a "ready mount" ie replacement rate compared to turn-over rate to keep mounts expensive and therefore carefully used by players to avoid damage to their "ferrari/lorry" etc. Also good for the devs and mount-breeders to avoid over-proliferation?
I'm reminded in the ME deserts they still allow camels to drink first before the people. It indicates in such contexts just how valuable mounts are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah we need mount turnover to keep newbreds in demand. Mounts need to be killable and there should be a possibility to lose your mount if you are killed in the wilderness or on a battlefield without having your mount stabled.
Having stabled mounts could be a coin sink as well as a coin income for owners of Inn PoI's and settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah we need mount turnover to keep newbreds in demand. Mounts need to be killable and there should be a possibility to lose your mount if you are killed in the wilderness or on a battlefield without having your mount stabled.
Having stabled mounts could be a coin sink as well as a coin income for owners of Inn PoI's and settlements.
Yeah, Inn's should be like garages/fuel-stations for mounts (broken horse-shoe / needs hay and water and rest... "that'll be several goblins and a crown plz guv!" to recharge the mount, fix it up
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Goblin Squad Member
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Using Dofus as an example to get the best mount which is 10th gen mount. It take at lest a year and half for a breeder to get there. on top of that the gestation period for 10th gen mount is 6 and half days. So yea I don't think people need to worry too much about too many mount in circulation, assuming they programme it right. :p
on the note on mount killable I think killable mount in combat abit over kill.
maybe something like die of old age?
or something like mount need to visit stable for maintenances every so often as they do IRL.
Believe me it is not easy to fill the market with so many mount that it ruin things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order to keep mounts in demand, I prefer having them killable to having them be hard to get.
Reason is, if they are hard to get, once you have one you are set forever. Your mount is always there for you, you never have to worry about it.
The economy behind it can also be ruined in some ways if the supply turns out higher than what was originally intended. Like, imagine there is a bug/exploit/unbalance appearing that allows everyone to get a mount easily. The devs can patch away the problem by the time of the next update but now the damage is done, everyone has a mount and breeders are no longer in demand.
If there is a turnover of mounts because of death/loss/decay then there can be some stockpiling going on when supply increases but, once the mechanics are adjusted, this surplus will inevitably decrease back to reasonable levels. Thus, the system can be finely tuned and modified in an ongoing way that can make sure the economy and the supply and demand of mounts stays balanced.
Also, it means that in anticipation for a war or after a war horses will likely be in high demand because people will want to make sure they have several backups, providing interesting opportunities for merchants and market fluctuations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order to keep mounts in demand, I prefer having them killable to having them be hard to get.
Reason is, if they are hard to get, once you have one you are set forever. Your mount is always there for you, you never have to worry about it.
The economy behind it can also be ruined in some ways if the supply turns out higher than what was originally intended. Like, imagine there is a bug/exploit/unbalance appearing that allows everyone to get a mount easily. The devs can patch away the problem by the time of the next update but now the damage is done, everyone has a mount and breeders are no longer in demand.
If there is a turnover of mounts because of death/loss/decay then there can be some stockpiling going on when supply increases but, once the mechanics are adjusted, this surplus will inevitably decrease back to reasonable levels. Thus, the system can be finely tuned and modified in an ongoing way that can make sure the economy and the supply and demand of mounts stays balanced.
Also, it means that in anticipation for a war or after a war horses will likely be in high demand because people will want to make sure they have several backups, providing interesting opportunities for merchants and market fluctuations.
Hmm what you suggesting definitely good news from breeder point of view. but from the way you describe it sound to me like mount made of glass a little poke and its gone.
I think having a mechanic where a mount is warn out after you continuously use it. or having mount use armour for its protection instate of just making the mount look good. to prevent it from getting kill and such.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that you should have a "minimum wage" mount which can't be killed, or which is replaced upon death (like the EvE beginner frigate), but yes, better mount being lost under certain conditions is an interesting idea. Maybe a percentage chance of dying after a defeat, to encourage people to actually buy one without thinking "Hell with it, I'll lose it anyway", plus an "ageing" system ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't lose this thread or the others like it. Or even the ideas if there is a good long wait. Once the game gets up and running and a larger staff (more than the harried few) can be afforded, this would all be GREAT stuff.
It will fill out the interesting things to do in-game and attract even more players...
+1
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that you should have a "minimum wage" mount which can't be killed, or which is replaced upon death (like the EvE beginner frigate), but yes, better mount being lost under certain conditions is an interesting idea. Maybe a percentage chance of dying after a defeat, to encourage people to actually buy one without thinking "Hell with it, I'll lose it anyway", plus an "ageing" system ?
That is pretty much what I am thinking if mount die too easily, personally I would just to hell with it it is going to die anyhow. I didn't know you can program it such that it have a probability of dieing. and ageing of course.
My personal opinion is that it is not that easy to flood the market with mount. I think people over estimating breeder capacity to flood market with mount. remember breeding is not easy and not everyone have patient for it. Also it is really tedious from my experiences so i won't expect more than a handful of full time breeder out there tbh.
another point I want to make is that does mount going to give some other status other than just raw speed? For example in Dofus each pure type mount is represented by a colour and they give curtain status. you can mix and match them to get the status you desire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems logical that Mounts, just as about anything in PFO, are assets that could be incorporated in the crafting and resource-economy. This would also imply the mechanics of supply and demand, and the fact that they can die. I think anything that adds to the resource-economy is a good thing. It is probably far off, and Mounts imply so much other work too(animations), but they could add much more value then just as transports.
I plan to not get too attached to my gear though, so I am curious how that will pan out if you have a horse. Actually, I think I will be ok, since I can not remember ever feeling attached to a pet or mount in another game but I can not speak for others. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mounts, Combat Pets, Beasts of Burden to pull wagons, Vanity pets ...
And all of my yes to going out and capturing beasts to breed new abilities into the bloodlines.
The 'Badges' towards the end of that tree could be hilariously insane, requiring your players to go out and collect a vial of Dragons' blood to infuse into your 'Masterwork' 'Fighting' 'Combat' Dog-companion animal.
While it might be easier to hunt down and kill a chromatic Dragon, the pups would then take on the Chaotic/Lawful Evil nature of the Dragon.
Of course, getting the blood from a Metallic Dragon might be an adventure in and of itself, especially if you need diplomacy to get it ... or aren't afraid of trading with some of the vilest sons of b%#+!es in the region for the goods.
I'd personally have Mounts, Combat Pets, Beasts of Burden and Vanity Pets have hit-points, so it is literally possible to kill them.
But I would have it impossible to 'breed' them without a specific Stable/Stud-setup of some kind.
Basic setup might allow a bit of everything, but you're quickly going to want to specialise into one of the four 'arcs' of the path, and then find the route that you think will be best for you and the nearest friendly Settlement.
I'd assume that such creatures as player 'crafted' items would have 'keywords' worked into their breeding, a sort of random combination between the 'keywords' of the Parents to create offspring with mixed attributes.
Warhounds bred for 'Toughness' 'Courage' 'Thick Skinned' might have higher armor class, will saves and hit-points, making them excellent, if somewhat expensive at first if you can't breed enough to keep up with demand, allies for the local Guards to use when defending a Point of Interest or trying to hold back a Siege.
Horse bred for 'Speed' 'Speed' 'Endurance' (And no, that's not a typo) could be rather fragile when compared to horses bred for 'Strength' 'Combat' 'Toughness', but you'd have to catch them first, and with a double-speed bonus and an endurance bonus, that's going to be tough.
A Vanity Pet, let's say a Pseudo Dragon, bred for 'Intelligence' 'Friendly' 'Utility' might make an excellent familiar for a Wizard, as it would not only be affectionate (and thus might be more ammendable to certain commands) but the 'Utility' and 'Intelligence' keywords bred into it might also allow it to learn a 'trick' or two beyond what it normally could, allowing it to perform a single action or simple actions in combat, crafting or something else.
A 'Bard' running around with three dogs he's trained to do tricks would be an interesting feature for a Settlement, especially if you can perform talents, such as 'Perform' or 'Profession' or similar to actively help with a Development Index rather than actually making a physical item.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That is pretty much what I am thinking if mount die too easily, personally I would just to hell with it it is going to die anyhow. I didn't know you can program it such that it have a probability of dieing. and ageing of course.
Programming is based on orders and equations fired by specific events, you can pretty much program anything that you can predict.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is another question.
How would a breeder transport a herd of mount to X settlement?
for the sake of argument lets say X settlement order er 100 mount, and have to transport it there. it would be kind of annoying if they have to come here and ride a small group of mount back. that would just be silly. any idea out there that would speed this up? ideally do it in 1 or 2 run.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my favorite pen and paper memories was being rewarded for slaying a dragon with a huge herd of cattle. If we could get the cattle to the capitol city in time for the royal wedding we could make a fair amount of gold, so we created an illusionary prairie fire and stampeded the across the country just in the nick of time. The best part was we made almost enough gold to cover the cost of repairing all the damage we caused along the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is another question.
How would a breeder transport a herd of mount to X settlement?
for the sake of argument lets say X settlement order er 100 mount, and have to transport it there. it would be kind of annoying if they have to come here and ride a small group of mount back. that would just be silly. any idea out there that would speed this up? ideally do it in 1 or 2 run.
In Darkfall:UW, mounts are summoned from an inventory item and unsummoning a mount returns the summoning item back into inventory.
It's not realistic but it works out pretty well as a gameplay mechanic.
Say that a mount is represented in your inventory by a "horse whistle", in PFO it would be possible for you to thread that whistle (if it can be slotted) so that you keep your horse if you die. If you would rather thread your expensive sword that's fine but be prepared to lose your mount if you die.
Ownership of mounts can then be traded by handing over these items and transport of several mounts at once would be possible, only limited by the weight of the representative items and your carrying capacity. When you kill an enemy there is a chance you can loot a mount summoning item from the corpse, unless the summoning item was threaded.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Honestly Wurner, you should try AoC : you must use an item too, well I mean when I was playing, but the mount wasn't instantly summoned : It just came out running from outside your camera, just like if it was following you all along, it was really pretty cool.
Even mount controlling, was really great in AoC, it's my best memory of this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Audoucet,
I did play AoC and have never tried an MMORPG I enjoyed more. I have been debating for a collision system for characters in PFO identical to that in AoC (sadly, it looks like it won't happen).
What I am suggesting here is that, instead of having an item that unlocks an ability that you then keep forever, you need to always keep that item in your inventory to be able to summon your mount. In Age of Conan you kept all your items when you died, in Pathfinder Online you won't. I think it would be fun, appropriate and interesting if mounts can be lost and looted just like other items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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oh here is an idea, actually is from dofus. it is part of their pet hp system.
say mount have X hp everytime it die in battle it loss 1 hp once you lose all its hp you lose the mount. one could incorporate a system where the mount have to be return to paddock/shed or whatever system to regain its hp after a period of time.
on top of that mount have to be feed once every X hours so it doesn't go hungry. If the owner fail to feed it during the allocated time it lose hp as a result. how about that system?
oh yea I wouldn't expecting all 100 to be shown in screen it is just a random number i pick. my point is how to move large number of it from point A to B. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a question for you Audoucet,
would it be possible to build a semi or permanent outpost or some kind for mount breeding?
I would imagine they need a lot of building and large open space for raising and training them. That building it in settlement won't be practical I imagine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be fun to have a mechanic where you can steal horses outside of the stables, so horse thief's for example would just lay and wait or track very expensive mounts and attempt to steal them maybe try and sell them to some skeezy inn owners or players in the black market just an idea
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Goblin Squad Member
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Er, that is a little a too much precise question for me to answer, as I am just a player, but you must remember that in a game, you don't have to do everything on a 1/1 scale. Five horses in a little garden can easily represent a 100 heads herd !
I mistaken you for a dev haha XD <-- feel like an idiot now. :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be fun to have a mechanic where you can steal horses outside of the stables, so horse thief's for example would just lay and wait or track very expensive mounts and attempt to steal them maybe try and sell them to some skeezy inn owners or players in the black market just an idea
That would be interesting, although how it would interact with more class-specific mounts (Paladin's warhorse, Druid companions usable as a mount, and the like) could be a stumbling block. I suppose you could make them unable to be stolen, or have them attack the thief, which would instantly give the thief a criminal flag and a hostile flag to the mount owner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What kind of structure would you guys think will be needed for breeding?
and should the structure be attach to the settlement or some kind of outpost?
I would like to see it grouped into something like a standard "Ranch POI" and diversified through various upgrades that take it in a more specialized and effective (in that specialized area) direction.
A trunk with branches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And after 2.5 years your mount breeders will have their own equivalents to crafting Excalibur: could do horse-like mounts like Nightmeres, Pegasi, Unicorns, or something more unusual like Bulettes, Giant Spiders, or even small dragons or dragonkin! These types of mounts of course being very costly, complicated, and difficult to breed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And after 2.5 years your mount breeders will have their own equivalents to crafting Excalibur: could do horse-like mounts like Nightmeres, Pegasi, Unicorns, or something more unusual like Bulettes, Giant Spiders, or even small dragons or dragonkin! These types of mounts of course being very costly, complicated, and difficult to breed.
i would expect something like this involve some ridiculous system where you have to go catch the wild version or some kind yuck. :(
speaking of catching that bring back memory when i was catching mount in dofus. man that shit take forever.
