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Just got and read through the new scenario 5-19 The Horn of Aroden. There's something that's confusing, though:
- In the Conclusion section, first paragraph on page 19, the last line says that "Each PC earn the Horn of Aroden boon on his or her Chronicle sheet."
- Under the Faction Notes section on that same page, though, it says, "If Taldor faction PCs accomplish both goals, they each receive the Horn of Aroden boon on their Chronicle sheets."
Which is correct? The Chronicle Sheet itself doesn't offer any further clarification.
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I just read this scenario and it looks awesome. I really liked how The Wardstone Patrol focused on a specific NPC, and I like how this one does the same, with the added bonus of maybe Lander showing up again in the future.
I also like that Marek is easily prepared to give PCs a run for their money if they insist on picking a fight.
Additionally, a couple of these combats seem pretty cool.
I would love to hear any ideas about RPing Lander, especially if you have run this already.
As far as the boon goes, there seems to be mass confusion about it. I had thought it would be a Taldor only boon, but my plan is to error on the side of generosity, and let some future ruling clarify it down, if necessary.
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I got some inspiration on how to RP Lander from a few other people in my area who RP Taldon nobles. Cocky, arrogant, above everyone else... It gives a decent description of Lander in the module that helps.
I also gave the boons to the entire party since that's what it read like to me.
Unless you have a party of optimized PCs, Marek should dispatch the PCs easily, based on his stats. An 11th level Fighter against a group of level 1-5 PCs should be no-contest.
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No, it takes them a day or two to get out to where the bandits are. I think it says somewhere that the bandits tend to strike the caravans around this time. Also, since you can only try to improve someone's opinion of you once a day, it gives the PC a couple days to work with as they bring Lander back.
My understanding is that she is in hybrid form at both tiers. I think one of the other threads also addressed this?
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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No, it takes them a day or two to get out to where the bandits are. I think it says somewhere that the bandits tend to strike the caravans around this time. Also, since you can only try to improve someone's opinion of you once a day, it gives the PC a couple days to work with as they bring Lander back.
My understanding is that she is in hybrid form at both tiers. I think one of the other threads also addressed this?
Cool. Thanks. I'll try to find that other thread.
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I ran him as doing nonlethal the whole time, with the other mooks doing lethal. Personally, if I am trying to take someone alive, I like to put a far amount of nonlethal on them first, before I consider doing lethal so I am less likely to kill them on accident if I make a mistake about how much HP they have. From Wicent's perspective, I don't think there's a downside to using nonlethal. Of course, if for some reason there is, (a lot of mid-combat healing, Community Domain cleric, or undead opponents) he can always change tactics after realizing it.
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Bludgeoner (Combat)
You can knock foes out cold with just about any blunt instrument.
Benefit: You take no penalty on attack rolls for using a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls when using a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage. You cannot use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack.
Special: A rogue with this feat can use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack.
Bludgeoner does not add an extra 1d6 non-lethal damage.
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Wait, I think you might be confusing two different feats.
This is the feat Wicent has:
He does not have this feat, which gives you extra sneak attack damage when attacking nonlethally with a blunt weapon:
I know some builds put these feats together to great effect, but Wicent has not gone that path, at least, not by level 6.
To summarize: Wicent does do non-lethal sneak attack damage, but no extra damage than he would if he were doing lethal attacks.
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I ran this at 4-5. And despite being pretty much jackasses the party got a good diplomacy roll that made up for it. Despite hitting almost every neg.
Before I go any further, I want to say in the interest of full disclosure that I enjoy scenarios where there are NPCs that aren't necessarily easy to get along with, but also penalize the PCs if they are unrepentant jerks. That was one of my favorite things about another season 5 scenario.
I also will say, any NPC interaction is dependent on the GM. I tend to recommend any scenario heavy on roleplay not be run cold. The ideal would be to play with a GM who has run it multiple times and has developed some insight into who the character really is. I imagine that isn't something that occurs especially often.
That said, there is stuff in the PCs favor. First, it is more difficult to make Lander hate you. You have to fail the DC by ten or more for his attitude to worsen. Further more, if you just take him out of the trunk, heal him, help clean him up, and feed him, you already have +6 right there. I feel like those would be things natural for heroes to do after rescuing a hostage.
Furthermore, if you can make the DC 20 sense motive check you can find out that if you boast about your own toughness with an Intimidation check, you can use that to increase his attitude instead of Diplomacy.
You can challenge him to a duel. Now the PCs might not think about it, but it also says that Lander will be throwing out challenges himself, and the PCs just need to accept one. If you win and don't rub his face in it, his attitude automatically improves one step, which should at least be enough to get a martial group in the game, even if they don't have a face man.
Also, a PC can take Lander on as a pupil, and as long as he treats him with a little respect, that PC can get a bonus to diplomacy checks.
And of course, there's the ubiquitous, bonus for if you roleplay well.
Of course all of this is optional, only necessary for Pathfinders who desire to "go above and beyond the call of duty." If they want, the PCs can just keep Lander in the trunk, and carry him back.
But at the risk of being repetitive, I think a lot of PCs treat NPCs like brick walls. Treat them however they want, with no expectation of negative consequences. I can appreciate people wanting to play games like that, but I don't think PFS should be a game like that. If your character is just a jerk to NPCs, maybe you should lose a prestige here and there.
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As a player I didn't like the scenario. And yes, it was irritating, wandering around the forest following an imbecile attacking every nook and cranny in sight.
The secondary condition for the additional prestige point was preposterous. I even stated to the team at the end while confronting Marek that Pathfinder Society's role isn't to play the local police force. The whole time I imagined the primary objective would have been to get the idiot back home, and secondary to make him discard the dreams of being an adventurer.
There are a lot of 5th season scenarios that are way better than this, so I recommend against running this one.
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I ran this last weekend and I really enjoyed it. Our events average 15 people or so and everyone had a good time and talked about how much fun they had and the different things they did with Lander. I felt that it was a fun and fresh scenario with enough depth to be fun and interesting.
We run PFS twice a month with scenarios as they are released and following on the heels of Destiny of the Sands and Fate of the Fiend, all very dense scenarios, this was a breath of fresh air.
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I played in the same slot as Deussu and my experience was similarly lacking in lustre. It wasn't a bad scenario per se, but other than the very beginning, felt like a mediocre season 1 woodland romp. Lots of combat, weird smorgasbord of creatures and a story distanced from the metaplot.
And that secondary success condition is incredibly esoteric. Blah.
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And that secondary success condition is incredibly esoteric. Blah.
The PCs successfully complete their secondary success
condition if they accomplish all three of the following:
complete the scenario with Lander’s attitude toward them
being indifferent or better
Which you can do basically by taking him out of the box and handing him a sandwich, and then not talking to him for a few days. He's a noble, he's important, you want his mom to do you a favor this shouldn't be a surprise.
gather three or more pieces
of evidence to indict Marek Bogdan as the mastermind
of the bandit attacks, and deliver this evidence to Dame
Sarrona Lebeda. Possible evidence includes one or more
of the bandits’ weapons stamped with Marek’s maker’s
mark
- Weapons are treasure. You pick those up automatically
Wicent’s description of the blacksmith ringleader
(Wicent need not be alive and present, but the PCs
must have interrogated him),
- Don't be a murderhobo, particularly to the NPC thats dealing subdual damage to you. Return the favor.
Aldona’s letter to “M,”
Found pretty much automatically in the camp.
and Lander’s willing testimony against Marek.
If you murderhobo'd up Wicent you'd have to get this somehow (not seeing an easy way to get it in the mod)
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I was totally underwhelmed when I got a hold of this scenario last month. I predicted a tsunami of bile headed in John Compton's direction. The combat encounters were laughable and the plot was paper thin. It was "Keep of the Huscarl King" all over again, too. The scenario is called "The Horn of Aroden" but the PCs never even lay eyes on the Horn.
Then I saw someone post something about bringing out the role-play. I thought of that as a challenge. How many lackluster scenarios have been turned out that you GMs have polished up into fan favorites with a quirky NPC or a ridiculous situation? Are the reviewers saying that this scenario is beyond hope, or just beyond their abilities to bring to life? Take that as a challenge.
I ran it on Saturday. I won't say that it was fun for me, but it was fun for the players. I confirmed a crit while power attacking & cleaving into a foolhardy 2nd level PC (Tier 4-5) that killed him outright. The players all got involved trying to persuade Lander to return home. They ground their teeth at times, but set themselves to the task and straightened the boy out.
As for Marek Bogdan, they suspected him from the beginning but had to gather evidence first. Then before the arrest warrant could be served, a single 4th level PC turned out the "Swordlord"'s lights, literally. Fricking tieflings & darkness.
One gripe that I think is legit is all the wasted space on the Chronicle. It looked like something from Season 0.
I'll write a review later today, but I encourage everyone to take a second look at the scenario and consider it the Bonekeep of role-playing.
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"The PCs successfully complete their secondary success
condition if they accomplish all three of the following:"
Right, two of those are nigh automatic, but the evidence gathering requires you to actually present said evidence to the local law enforcement and, in my opinion, go beyond the call of duty as a Pathfinder. As Deussu explained, the Society is not the police. We talked about pursuing the case between us but decided against it. Particularly because it seemed that Lander's honour was at stake, so outing the smith as a criminal would have had some unneeded consequences for the young noble.
If there was nonlethal damage thrown around there somewhere we must have missed it. THAT would have probably changed things a bit.
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Right, two of those are automatic, but the evidence gathering requires you to actually present said evidence to the local law enforcement
Hello, lady? The nice lady giving us the artifact of immense historic, religious, cultural and possibly arcane signifigance? Yeah, you might want to know that your local blacksmith is trying to topple your rule. Yeah, the one your son's been spending all day with.
in my opinion, go beyond the call of duty as a Pathfinder.
That is kind of the new tagline for the secondary success conditions.
If there was nonlethal damage thrown around there somewhere we must have missed it. THAT would have probably changed things a bit.
During Combat Wicent moves to flank with his allies whenever
possible to maximize his damage. Eager to prove his worth
and capture prisoners, he uses his Bludgeoner feat to deal
nonlethal damage.
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So the real question for a newbie GM is, Can I edit the secondary success condition to be less goofy? I really like tell the VC about Merek and let her decide how to handle it. Either that or stress at the beginning that the VC wants the PCs to acquire the Horn AND good standing from the Lebeda "family" (not just Lander)
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If memory serves, the dual macing rogue dude (apparently the Wicent or so) did not deal nonlethal damage to us, and anyway my character managed to score a 27 damage critical hit on him (or her?), dropping him (or her) to negative constitution.
I don't mind missing out one prestige point/fame, but some times this secondary condition is just out there. This nifty guide works wonder for the most part, but Horn of Aroden's mission is ... how'd you put it... "Do the Lawful Good thing, despite your main objective (Lander) saying don't."
And yeah, we figured that providing the evidence (which we didn't have enough, actually) to the local authority would wound Lander's reputation and just cause more trouble for the Lebeda family in the harsh Brevoy, land of Game of Thrones-esque political stabbings.
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It just seemed out of place, since so many PFS modules have us doing illegal/psuedolegal things we need to hide from the local authority to have "go out of your way to help the local authorities, even after a noble asked you not to" as a secondary condition was very jarring.
Usually we're doing illegal things because the authorities don't want us to have the artifact. This time the authorities are willingly turning over the artifact, so we're on their side.
We're not chaotic we're just pragmatic. :)
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So the real question for a newbie GM is, Can I edit the secondary success condition to be less goofy? I really like tell the VC about Merek and let her decide how to handle it. Either that or stress at the beginning that the VC wants the PCs to acquire the Horn AND good standing from the Lebeda "family" (not just Lander)
You can't edit the secondary objective.
You can have the VC tell the party to turn over the evidence though.
Somehow I think moms going to be running the place for a while.
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When I ran it, someone playing pre-gen Kyra aced the initial diplomacy check. When Lander started talking about how he wanted a duel "for fun", they fairly beat him at that as well. End result, he was helpful right out of the gates.
I had him try to talk the party into "going on more adventures" but they were understandably having none of it.
The players were inadvertently victims of their own success and missed a decent amount of the adventure as Lander never wandered off during the night.
@ Horn of Aroden boon: Is there consensus yet as to how that's supposed to work? Since it does nothing (of yet) it seems to me it was meant specifically for Taldor faction PCs and not for everyone who succeeded on the primary mission.
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So the real question for a newbie GM is, Can I edit the secondary success condition to be less goofy? I really like tell the VC about Merek and let her decide how to handle it. Either that or stress at the beginning that the VC wants the PCs to acquire the Horn AND good standing from the Lebeda "family" (not just Lander)
Lady Glorianna Morilla isn't a Venture Captain, she's a faction leader working for Taldor. As for asking for good standing in her note she does wrote
"Remember that she and her family are influential in Brevoy
and beyond, and winning their friendship could bring great benefits in
the future."
It reads to me that getting on the good side of the Lebeda's is something you might want to do.
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So the real question for a newbie GM is, Can I edit the secondary success condition to be less goofy? I really like tell the VC about Merek and let her decide how to handle it. Either that or stress at the beginning that the VC wants the PCs to acquire the Horn AND good standing from the Lebeda "family" (not just Lander)Lady Glorianna Morilla isn't a Venture Captain, she's a faction leader working for Taldor. As for asking for good standing in her note she does wrote
"Remember that she and her family are influential in Brevoy
and beyond, and winning their friendship could bring great benefits in
the future."It reads to me that getting on the good side of the Lebeda's is something you might want to do.
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I'm just saying the secondary objective could have been better than "provide evicende of Marek's scheming to the local authorities". Something to do with the Lebeda family. As I said earlier, initially, it felt like the main objective was to get Lander back, and secondary was to convince him to forget adventuring.
To my mind, that would have made more sense. Alas, getting Lander back and convincing it was a stupid idea are all buncled into one (which surprised me).
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Played this scenario today with in 1-2 tier no party face, in fact the high charisma in the group was an 8. In order to accomplish the mission the players decided they wouldn't be likely to convince Lander to stop fighting things and that they were likely to get themselves into trouble if they let him out of the trunk. Instead they gathered evidence including questioning the early encounter and carried Lander in trunk back to his mother. The cleric was allowed to peak through the lock and create water to keep Lander alive. On the way back the cleric then prepped his first level charm spell, cast it just before getting back to the Lebeda household to make him happy. They lateral thinking skipped multiple encounters and allowed far more appropriate play for the group at the table. (Level 1 fighter TWF cha 7, Level 2 Cleric (madness/deception) cha 7, Level 1 Monk (Drunken Master) cha 7, Level 2 Fighter (Bow) cha 8)
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Charm Person does not alter the NPC's memories. After one hour per caster level had expired, Lander's attitude would have slipped back to normal and he probably would've screamed at his mother about being lugged kilometres through the forest in a rotten log by a bunch of flat-headed, pock-marked Pathfinder commoners. Don't think the Lebeda family would be too happy with the Society after that.
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** spoiler omitted **So the real question for a newbie GM is, Can I edit the secondary success condition to be less goofy? I really like tell the VC about Merek and let her decide how to handle it. Either that or stress at the beginning that the VC wants the PCs to acquire the Horn AND good standing from the Lebeda "family" (not just Lander)Lady Glorianna Morilla isn't a Venture Captain, she's a faction leader working for Taldor. As for asking for good standing in her note she does wrote
"Remember that she and her family are influential in Brevoy
and beyond, and winning their friendship could bring great benefits in
the future."It reads to me that getting on the good side of the Lebeda's is something you might want to do.
Oooo Good points. You might want to offer a knowledge nobility roll to prod the pcs with that info if needed.
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I ran this last night and gave them an intelligence roll to solidify their mission at the beginning just to make sure they knew what the mission is. Box text and notes can easily be glossed over at the beginning so I wanted to make sure they knew what was expected so they at least had a fighting chance to get the secondary condition. I think it worked cause at the end they debated handing over the details about Merek but they remembered their mission and that they should side with the matriarch.
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Played this scenario today with in 1-2 tier no party face, in fact the high charisma in the group was an 8. In order to accomplish the mission the players decided they wouldn't be likely to convince Lander to stop fighting things and that they were likely to get themselves into trouble if they let him out of the trunk. Instead they gathered evidence including questioning the early encounter and carried Lander in trunk back to his mother. The cleric was allowed to peak through the lock and create water to keep Lander alive. On the way back the cleric then prepped his first level charm spell, cast it just before getting back to the Lebeda household to make him happy. They lateral thinking skipped multiple encounters and allowed far more appropriate play for the group at the table. (Level 1 fighter TWF cha 7, Level 2 Cleric (madness/deception) cha 7, Level 1 Monk (Drunken Master) cha 7, Level 2 Fighter (Bow) cha 8)
The group I ran this for wanted to do that, but because they thought he was in league with the blacksmith. I reminded them that they had traveled about 55 miles by that point and carrying him all the way back would be an issue. They let him out and got enough diplomacy to make him friendly.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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The cleric was allowed to peak through the lock and create water to keep Lander alive.
You need at least a 1 square foot hole for line of effect.
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
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Played this scenario today with in 1-2 tier no party face, in fact the high charisma in the group was an 8. In order to accomplish the mission the players decided they wouldn't be likely to convince Lander to stop fighting things and that they were likely to get themselves into trouble if they let him out of the trunk. Instead they gathered evidence including questioning the early encounter and carried Lander in trunk back to his mother. The cleric was allowed to peak through the lock and create water to keep Lander alive. On the way back the cleric then prepped his first level charm spell, cast it just before getting back to the Lebeda household to make him happy. They lateral thinking skipped multiple encounters and allowed far more appropriate play for the group at the table. (Level 1 fighter TWF cha 7, Level 2 Cleric (madness/deception) cha 7, Level 1 Monk (Drunken Master) cha 7, Level 2 Fighter (Bow) cha 8)
Hope Lander;
a) had rationsb) didn't have to go to the bathroom
c) didn't have problems breathing
I also hope the lock was on the chest and that it wasn't a padlock :P
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I've ran this twice, both groups kept the "noble brat" in the trunk. The first group did it after casting Blindness/Deafness on him and informing him that he was still a captive for them to sell.
Both groups collected and turned over the evidence. The one group actually took all of the bandits alive and turned them over.
I like this scenario the secondary success is harder to accomplish, but I think that's what makes it more interesting. Of course I'll be running this four more times at Gen Con.
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ran this yesterday....
once they had rescued Lander- he went on his way
the first encounter ( kobolds)
Lander charged into combat and critted the first kobold and killed it with one hit..
the bard used his diplomacy and bluff to critique Lander and talk him into going to a fighting school
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If memory serves, the dual macing rogue dude (apparently the Wicent or so) did not deal nonlethal damage to us, and anyway my character managed to score a 27 damage critical hit on him (or her?), dropping him (or her) to negative constitution.
That's the one.
The reason you do not recall seeing nonlethal damage is that he spent the combat engaged with a pygmy hippo, his motivation for nonlethal damage is taking prisoners, and to my mind, those two things didn't jive. He also had a surrender condition, but there wasn't a lot to negotiate after that crit.
You seem to be developing a habit of critting people you wanted alive.
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After playing this scenario and prepping to run it this weekend, I find myself a bit depressed that I couldn't play this one with my Talden Cavalier. He would have been perfect for this one. Landen would have listened to him immediately, being a Talden noble himself. Shame he leveled to 6 a few weeks ago...