I prefer to play human for flavor reasons: in fantasy every race gets compared with others and gets something "special": elves are more nimble and intelligent and better with magic than the average other race, dwarves are sturdier and better at carrying armor than the average other race. Some races are more strange because fey/celestial/fiendish/undead heritage, some are totally unique and bizarre in their nature...
Humans are THE average other race. Flavor (and i stress "flavor") wise there is nothing they are better, and that's what makes them special to me. I like to picture my character going even in awesomeness with more skilled or rare exotic races not because of what is born, but because of what he's trained to achieve. I like to play Average Joe ascending after training all his life, rather than Gifted Awesomenosiriel being the One because natural talent/heritage/luck.
Mechanics only come after. Ironically, most of the time is when i'm not playing a human that i'm more interested in mechanical benefits.
As others have said, Humans' individual cultures are much more fleshed out than other races.
Also, although this arguably does go into the power gamer niche, I personally often find it hard to swallow a negative. That's because my group rolls stats and I find it hard to put a negative in what was a good stat and make it average, and also to dump a badly rolled 7 in a stat and end up with a 5, even if it's a stat I don't need much.
Of course, that also works with the half-human races. In fact, most of my guys end up being half-orcs it seems like.
Also humans have some cool racial feats and archetypes. So do other races, but you asked why people would play humans.
One strategy with the Aasimar is to chose some of the less mechanically optimal stuff for flavor, using the extra strength of the race to balance things.
This is like how I often played Magic: The Gathering (in multiplayer especially). I would use the strongest cards in the game like Time Walk and Black Lotus so that I could play cards/strategies that were not optimal like Time Bomb and not get killed immediately (which is no fun in multiplayer). Sometimes I wouldn't even have a win condition, which led to griping about how I pointlessly extended some games (as if that isn't fun). Getting people to concede due to the length of the game is a win condition. : )
If everyone at the table insists on full optimization then all they're doing is defining normal, which defeats their purpose, ironically. Big numbers are meaningless when you just have to adjust the hit points of the enemy upward to compensate. You're just using bigger numbers.
They're also limiting their options. A group I game with was definitely not interested in playing characters that were flavorful but purposefully not optimized (particularly in terms of spell choice). That was disappointing, because I think part of the fun of gaming is to use stuff that generally is ignored but which has interesting flavor.
Because its a humanocentric world.
Not all of them are. Remember, not everybody plays in Golarion.
Concerning the "I don't want people to think I'm poorly rping X race" angle...
If someone accuses you of poor roleplaying just because you don't play a race like a stereotyped straightjacket, tell them to grow an imagination. Just because a race has traits doesn't mean every person of said race is the same. Heck, you can adhere to some of the traits and still have a wide variation within that. Some of the best fun comes from extrapolation.
This. THISTHISTHIS.
I would be more likely to say someone who plays a race as a pure sterotype or caricature is the poorer RPer.
Concerning the "I don't want people to think I'm poorly rping X race" angle...
If someone accuses you of poor roleplaying just because you don't play a race like a stereotyped straightjacket, tell them to grow an imagination. Just because a race has traits doesn't mean every person of said race is the same. Heck, you can adhere to some of the traits and still have a wide variation within that. Some of the best fun comes from extrapolation.
This. THISTHISTHIS.
I would be more likely to say someone who plays a race as a pure sterotype or caricature is the poorer RPer.
At the same time, there is a flipside... which is being contrary to your character (possibly by only choosing the race for the mechanical benefit).
For instance, a player recently was playing an Aasimar with points in diplomacy and his idea of being diplomatic was to try to kill someone who was trying to get him to pay a little bit of tax. I asked him why he had points in diplomacy, since his solution for pretty much every situation was to be gruff or threatening to NPCs.
It's bad enough to be a bloodthirsty Aasimar without having diplomacy skill points that you never use. To me, it's rather silly.
2) Except for VERY specific builds, humans make the best full casters in the game, as their strengths tend to compensate for the weaknesses most full casters have without having to make some choices other races tend to (Squishiness? Humans get extra HP / level. Lack of skill points? Humans get an extra point / level too with no need to select which serves better. Feats short? You get an extra one.)
.
What is this I dont even.
Elves make extremely effective Wizards, most of the times more effective than humans.
Free Spell Pen, Int and Dex bonus, most start with a 12 Con which is negligible as most Wizards have the know how to avoid hit point damage.
Half Elves turn Oracles and Sorcerers into beyond god tier.
Aasimar puts rocket fuel in the Oracle's gas tank with their disgustingly powerful FCB.
I'd say Humans make the best Clerics, but full casters in general is a bit erroneous.
At the same time, there is a flipside... which is being contrary to your character
Unless your character is changing personalities constantly, there is no such thing as being contrary to your character. If his character is consistently brutish, then that's his character. If that's the way he always is, then he isn't being contrary.
Personality and genetics are completely unrelated.
Paragon Surge makes Half Elves better Oracles and Sorcerers than any human.
|
Aasimar Oracle FCB is among the best...IF you are building an oracle with the right mystery (and you probably are if you're an Aasimar) -- but this comes under my VERY specific build exception. In other words, you can do a "better" oracle by using one specific build (for instance Lunar + FCB + Celestial Servant) but the category comparison isn't specific but rather general. A human's FCB is always useful, and I guess it just comes down to how much of a mystery-based character you're going to be vs. just a spellcaster.
All mysteries are good with the Aasimar FCB, as all mysteries have at least 1 good ability that scales with level. All of them. Also Aasimars are immune to Dominate/Charm/Hold Person and other baleful Humanoid-only spells, and have options for things like Negative Energy resistance, resistance to Negative Levels, and other great things that benefit every class, including oracle.
Ah, OK.
Good luck getting your GM to approve it, until it's errata'd that is...
And humans still compete if you're going to pull that, because Racial Heritage is an option.
But yeah, one half-elf only spell and one combo makes them better than anyone else at spontaneous casters...except humans who can do the same exact thing by spending another feat...which they get...
At that point you've given up the human benefit for a single skill point over the Half Elf.
Which makes Half Elves mechanically superior thereafter because they get tons of bonuses besides the skill point.
Okay,
Out of MOST of the posts, I can accept that just because a player is human doesn't mean they are a min/maxer. I can also embrace the point that human players, might, be trying to be extra creative or imaginative by using the versatility of the human race to help them build an extra uniqueness into their character.
So I thank most of you for helping me open my mind to that side.
Unfortunately, I feel obligated to "defend" myself against the "typical troll" comment. This thread was posted 2 DAYS ago, and somehow because I have a family and a job, unable to check THIS post every couple hours, THAT makes me a TROLL!?
In terms of best spellcasters, adding an extra spell to your list: especially as a sorcerer, bard, oracle, or inquisitor... vs 1 hp/skill per level, seems a bit unbalanced. Especially given that these classes don't really have a way for non-humans to achieve the same result.
On the other side, looking deeper into the Aasimar and various alternate stat bonuses, I almost feel like I should restart this thread, replacing any Aasimar player as a likely min/maxer! lol.
All in all, I agree that every player should play what they will have the most fun with and just because that happens to be human doesn't mean they are doing so simply for some sort of mechanical advantage.
Personally I see anyone using the variant Aasimars or Tieflings as power gaming, they gave far too good of stat variations and abilities to the variants of both to the point that I've banned them.Oh no! Stat variations that allow for flexible character cration without worrying that you chose the wrong race! Truly a vile thing that must be banned!
More seriously, the flexible stats allow them to fit into more(but doesn't make them more powerful than any other race), dark vision is always nice, and no negative is cool, but the resistances fall behind, negative stats are usually crammed into a dump stat anyway, and the skill bonuses are pretty minor. Spell like abilities are appreciated. As to whether they are a go to for optimizing, I'd say it really depends on what your going for because they aren't perfect for everything.
Personally I like running humans because I just don't like elves, orcs, or short races.
i can agree with most of this, most the the Variant Aasimaar and Tiefling Abilities aren't very impressive to begin with.
1. the negative is usually shoved into a dump stat or might as well be nonexistent, unless it happens to be a constitution penalty because a human can have a bonus to whatever their primary offensive stat is
2. the spell like ability can indeed, be used the cheat requirements on prestige classes and feats, but with 1 less feat and well, the lessened benefit on prestige classes that are already underpowered, you are merely making prestige classes suck less or making a martial character that can craft their own magic items. thing is, there are a lot of traits, class features and feats that can give you spell like abilities.
3. Darkvision can be replicated by a 75 gold piece Ioun stone, and before you say darkvision gives you a stealth advantage by not needing a light source, most creatures you would sneak upon with darkvision, usually have a better darkvision range and are probably good enough to spot you the moment you try to sneak past you, plus you have to deal with special senses you most likely lack. putting you in the human's boat again
4. the resistances are only truly good at levels 1-3. past level 4, they don't keep up and are but a joke.
5. the outsider type is more of a penalty than a bonus
6. the Extraordinary flight requires a massive amount of feats you likely can't afford outside of highly specific builds and just doesn't keep up with your foes
7. the lack of a penalty means your dump stat is 2 points higher. thing is, it is a dump stat. you don't care how high it is. there is a reason you dumped it so low.
In terms of best spellcasters, adding an extra spell to your list: especially as a sorcerer, bard, oracle, or inquisitor... vs 1 hp/skill per level, seems a bit unbalanced. Especially given that these classes don't really have a way for non-humans to achieve the same result.
Keep in mind that Half Elves can choose either Human, Elf or Half Elf favored class bonuses while also having the advantage of Paragon Surge trick and their slew of benefits like Perception bonuses and possibly a +2 to all Will saves.
|
|
Ah, OK.
Good luck getting your GM to approve it, until it's errata'd that is...
And humans still compete if you're going to pull that, because Racial Heritage is an option.
But yeah, one half-elf only spell and one combo makes them better than anyone else at spontaneous casters...except humans who can do the same exact thing by spending another feat...which they get...
If a feat gave a +2 to perception checks, +2 to saves v. enchantment, immunity to sleep, a free weapon proficiency or a +3-6 to any skill you like, access to the Elf favored class bonus, and access to all Half-Elf and Elf archetypes, would a Human take it? What if it reduced your skills/level by one, would you still take it? I certainly would.
Keep in mind that Half Elves can choose either Human, Elf or Half Elf favored class bonuses while also having the advantage of Paragon Surge trick and their slew of benefits like Perception bonuses and possibly a +2 to all Will saves.
In terms of best spellcasters, adding an extra spell to your list: especially as a sorcerer, bard, oracle, or inquisitor... vs 1 hp/skill per level, seems a bit unbalanced. Especially given that these classes don't really have a way for non-humans to achieve the same result.
and humans can blow a feat to gain Paragon Surge while having more skill points than the half-elf in addition to those extra spells known, and skill points are a pretty powerful spell saver.
and humans can blow a feat to gain Paragon Surge while having more skill points than the half-elf in addition to those extra spells known, and skill points are a pretty powerful spell saver.Keep in mind that Half Elves can choose either Human, Elf or Half Elf favored class bonuses while also having the advantage of Paragon Surge trick and their slew of benefits like Perception bonuses and possibly a +2 to all Will saves.
In terms of best spellcasters, adding an extra spell to your list: especially as a sorcerer, bard, oracle, or inquisitor... vs 1 hp/skill per level, seems a bit unbalanced. Especially given that these classes don't really have a way for non-humans to achieve the same result.
Is a single skill point per level worth +2 to Will Saves, Elven Immunities, Low light vision and a bonus to Perception checks?
an Aasimaar Lunar Oracle whom abuses favored class and celestial servant to minmax their pet, is merely a Squishy Aasimaar whom hides behind a Kitty that comes with problems all it's own. minmax your pouncing machine? Animal Feats come from a very Narrow list unless you beef up their intelligence and even then, the kitty cat is nothing more than a Pouncing Wall whom occupies the Space the other Martial Characters need to fight in, and well, can wipe out one evil aligned boss per day. and due the animal companion FAQ, it still requires Tracking of Tricks and Handle Animal Checks to make it do anything it normally wouldn't.
Is a single skill point per level worth +2 to Will Saves, Elven Immunities, Low light vision and a bonus to Perception checks?and humans can blow a feat to gain Paragon Surge while having more skill points than the half-elf in addition to those extra spells known, and skill points are a pretty powerful spell saver.Keep in mind that Half Elves can choose either Human, Elf or Half Elf favored class bonuses while also having the advantage of Paragon Surge trick and their slew of benefits like Perception bonuses and possibly a +2 to all Will saves.
In terms of best spellcasters, adding an extra spell to your list: especially as a sorcerer, bard, oracle, or inquisitor... vs 1 hp/skill per level, seems a bit unbalanced. Especially given that these classes don't really have a way for non-humans to achieve the same result.
the +2 to perception is +2, with my 2 Extra Skill Focuses, i can have +3-+6 to Perception AND Use Magic Device in addition to the prerequisites for Eldritch heritage. which is a 2 feat lead for +12 worth of skill bonuses versus +2
the skill point per level, is an amazing boon on the skill starved oracle that allows them to defeat elven immunities, which i useless past level 4 unless you fight a lot of witches, low light vision, which can be faked by a 75 gold ioun torch, and the +2 to will saves is irrelevant on a class that already gets a good will save progression. especially when you combine the additional skill points with more skill bonuses. in skills you actually get to chose Ala Carte.
an Aasimaar Lunar Oracle whom abuses favored class and celestial servant to minmax their pet, is merely a Squishy Aasimaar whom hides behind a Kitty that comes with problems all it's own. minmax your pouncing machine? Animal Feats come from a very Narrow list unless you beef up their intelligence and even then, the kitty cat is nothing more than a Pouncing Wall whom occupies the Space the other Martial Characters need to fight in, and well, can wipe out one evil aligned boss per day. and due the animal companion FAQ, it still requires Tracking of Tricks and Handle Animal Checks to make it do anything it normally wouldn't.
Why is it squishy? D8 Hit dice, medium armor and full spellcasting is quite the tank.
Keep in mind that route is but one tool in their arsenal. They still have full spellcasting.
And that Tiger is dealing damage on par with Martial characters.
an Aasimaar Lunar Oracle whom abuses favored class and celestial servant to minmax their pet, is merely a Squishy Aasimaar whom hides behind a Kitty that comes with problems all it's own. minmax your pouncing machine? Animal Feats come from a very Narrow list unless you beef up their intelligence and even then, the kitty cat is nothing more than a Pouncing Wall whom occupies the Space the other Martial Characters need to fight in, and well, can wipe out one evil aligned boss per day. and due the animal companion FAQ, it still requires Tracking of Tricks and Handle Animal Checks to make it do anything it normally wouldn't.Why is it squishy? D8 Hit dice, medium armor and full spellcasting is quite the tank.
Keep in mind that route is but one tool in their arsenal. They still have full spellcasting.
And that Tiger is dealing damage on par with Martial characters.
why is it Squishy? you are effectively gearing 2 characters with one budget, and to make optimal use of the spell list that benefits the tiger. you too, would need a martial focus, but you have the same budget and same buffs split two ways instead of split one way. i tried building Oracles for Damage, and they felt quite Glass Cannony, even with Heavy Mithril Armor and Polearms.
the +2 to perception is +2, with my 2 Extra Skill Focuses, i can have +3-+6 to Perception AND Use Magic Device in addition to the prerequisites for Eldritch heritage. which is a 2 feat lead for +12 worth of skill bonuses versus +2the skill point per level, is an amazing boon on the skill starved oracle that allows them to defeat elven immunities, which i useless past level 4 unless you fight a lot of witches, low light vision, which can be faked by a 75 gold ioun torch, and the +2 to will saves is irrelevant on a class that already gets a good will save progression. especially when you combine the additional skill points with more skill bonuses. in skills you actually get to chose Ala Carte.
What level are we talking here? Those last 2 skill focuses come in quite late. If you took skill focus perception at 1st you get Eldritch Heritage quite late. The 16th level Skill Focus is hardly discussion worthy. You're also spending a feat to keep up with just Paragon Surge while the Half Elf is solidifying his build elsewhere.
And saves are never irrelevant, so long as your chances are less than 95% which they will be unless you pump Wisdom.
4 Skill points per level is hardly skill starved. 2 is, 4 is fine.
why is it Squishy? you are effectively gearing 2 characters with one budget, and to make optimal use of the spell list that benefits the tiger. you too, would need a martial focus, but you have the same budget and same buffs split two ways instead of split one way. i tried building Oracles for Damage, and they felt quite Glass Cannony, even with Heavy Mithril Armor and Polearms.an Aasimaar Lunar Oracle whom abuses favored class and celestial servant to minmax their pet, is merely a Squishy Aasimaar whom hides behind a Kitty that comes with problems all it's own. minmax your pouncing machine? Animal Feats come from a very Narrow list unless you beef up their intelligence and even then, the kitty cat is nothing more than a Pouncing Wall whom occupies the Space the other Martial Characters need to fight in, and well, can wipe out one evil aligned boss per day. and due the animal companion FAQ, it still requires Tracking of Tricks and Handle Animal Checks to make it do anything it normally wouldn't.Why is it squishy? D8 Hit dice, medium armor and full spellcasting is quite the tank.
Keep in mind that route is but one tool in their arsenal. They still have full spellcasting.
And that Tiger is dealing damage on par with Martial characters.
Sounds like a build error. The Animal Companion doesn't need much since it's scaling is so gross. It's better than most martials till about 12th level.
You don't need to invest in the Animal Companion, if the enemy is taking the time to wittle through its greater HD rather than focus your party while it tears them to shreds is an easy win for the party.
AC is not a concern for the Animal Companion. It has such a disgustingly high HP and damage so soon since a 10th level Aasimar has a 15th level Companion. The only thing you have to invest in is some save increases and hardly even that since it counts as a magical beast.
why is it Squishy? you are effectively gearing 2 characters with one budget, and to make optimal use of the spell list that benefits the tiger.
You are also using charisma for casting, AC and reflex saves, which is a lot. with a decnet str we are talking about plate mail + 18 cha (at least)´+ shield, plus constitution of at least 14.
Ya Lunar Oracle's are even more SAD then usual for casters (Though not Scarred Witchdoctor SAD). Primary CHA, Secondary CON, WIS and INT are fine as long as their not negative, and you can sell STR and DEX down the river.
why is it Squishy? you are effectively gearing 2 characters with one budget, and to make optimal use of the spell list that benefits the tiger.You are also using charisma for casting, AC and reflex saves, which is a lot. with a decnet str we are talking about plate mail + 18 cha (at least)´+ shield, plus constitution of at least 14.Are you blowing a feat to use full plate mail (heavy)? It used to be that mithril counted as one lower so you didn't need it but Pathfinder ruled you need proficiency anyway. Or did you mean breastplate (medium)?
You'll be encumbered all the time if you drop strength -- you PROBABLY want to go melee so your priorities on such a character are most likely Cha > Str > Con > Wis = Int > Dex. The only one you can really drop is Dex, and then you have to take Noble Scion: War in order to get Cha to totally replace it for combat purposes except for CMD...and you won't be good at any dex-based skill either.
______One problem seems to be there's an excess of theorycraft in a lot of threads without necessarily thinking through the practical part of playing a min-maxed build.
It's a strong character to make but there are several hoops to jump through, and there are a lot of other ways to make strong characters too.
a lot of these builds are theoretically powerful, but fall apart in practical play where they encounter entire scenarios where they can't really use their primary tactic. the Tiger suffers the same Weakness as a Medium Cavalier's Mount and well, the Damage of a Party Working in Tandem without hindered visibility is combined, likely a lot higher than the lone tiger. and 10 foot corridors barely accomodate the tiger without squeezing penalties. you really need 20 foot corridors to make the tiger or cavalier useable without screwing over your other PCs.
The Tiger is a disposable tool, not the entire kit. Even if the Tiger doesn't work out you are still a full caster. You have ways to cripple enemies and control the battlefield and the utility to overcome all manner of out of combat scenarios. The Tiger? That's the least of the enemies worries.
The Tiger is a disposable tool, not the entire kit. Even if the Tiger doesn't work out you are still a full caster. You have ways to cripple enemies and control the battlefield and the utility to overcome all manner of out of combat scenarios. The Tiger? That's the least of the enemies worries.
a full caster with a very limited spell list that was probably focused on augmenting the tiger further.
a lot of these builds are theoretically powerful, but fall apart in practical play where they encounter entire scenarios where they can't really use their primary tactic. the Tiger suffers the same Weakness as a Medium Cavalier's Mount and well, the Damage of a Party Working in Tandem without hindered visibility is combined, likely a lot higher than the lone tiger. and 10 foot corridors barely accomodate the tiger without squeezing penalties. you really need 20 foot corridors to make the tiger or cavalier useable without screwing over your other PCs.why is it Squishy? you are effectively gearing 2 characters with one budget, and to make optimal use of the spell list that benefits the tiger.You are also using charisma for casting, AC and reflex saves, which is a lot. with a decnet str we are talking about plate mail + 18 cha (at least)´+ shield, plus constitution of at least 14.Are you blowing a feat to use full plate mail (heavy)? It used to be that mithril counted as one lower so you didn't need it but Pathfinder ruled you need proficiency anyway. Or did you mean breastplate (medium)?
You'll be encumbered all the time if you drop strength -- you PROBABLY want to go melee so your priorities on such a character are most likely Cha > Str > Con > Wis = Int > Dex. The only one you can really drop is Dex, and then you have to take Noble Scion: War in order to get Cha to totally replace it for combat purposes except for CMD...and you won't be good at any dex-based skill either.
______One problem seems to be there's an excess of theorycraft in a lot of threads without necessarily thinking through the practical part of playing a min-maxed build.
It's a strong character to make but there are several hoops to jump through, and there are a lot of other ways to make strong characters too.
That is just not true. This is my lunar oracle. Why are you even comparing a lone tiger against a whole party?.
This is A lunar oracle. She is a ful caster with lots of spells. She have solid skills. Her animal companion is a grapple specialist with good aC and hit points designed to neutralize targets and work in tandem with the other martials of the party. THe DM did not let me DUmp dex lower otherwise she would have a higher str or con.
|
Just curious....
When I sit down at a random table, if there is a human character, I automatically assume min/maxer, lacking the flavor of creativity. While this isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, I have trouble understanding why in a fantasy setting ANYONE would want to play human beyond the fact that they are the "best" choice in almost every class guide.
extra feat
bonus skill points
extra spells for favored class
+2 to any statthe list goes on.
Any reason why the content pushes players to this race?
I'm kind of the opposite of you I guess when it comes to making assumptions. When I sit down at a table and see someone playing a non-human race I kind of assume that they are too lazy to come up with an interesting personality for their character so they just pick something unusual to use as a crutch or disguise the fact that the character idea is so boreing that they need something to make it seem more exotic.
Is this assumption valid? No, not any more than yours. Our assumptions are likely colored by our past experiences. As long as we don't let our pre-conceived notions interfere with the game then we are more likely to be pleasantly surprised.
I tend to let the character's mood and what I am trying to evoke lead me to a race.
A lot of times when I play other races than human, it's because I am emphasizing an element about the character's personality or background that really work with that race - or even because the race itself is ripe for roleplaying possibilities.
Humans I tend to play when none of the above apply - something about background or class is something I want to emphasize in the character.
Just curious....
When I sit down at a random table, if there is a human character, I automatically assume min/maxer, lacking the flavor of creativity. While this isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, I have trouble understanding why in a fantasy setting ANYONE would want to play human beyond the fact that they are the "best" choice in almost every class guide.
extra feat
bonus skill points
extra spells for favored class
+2 to any statthe list goes on.
Any reason why the content pushes players to this race?
For me, race is decided by concept or, in some cases (Dwarven Cleric, Aasimar Bard, Tiefling Paladin, Half-Elven Summoner), FCB. Mechanics almost always plays a role in racial preference but aren't usually the deciding factor.
FWIW, it bothers me far more when someone takes a non-Human race for a purely mechanical benefit and then basically plays it as a Human with a long beard or pointy ears...
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I've seen it pop up several times in this thread, so I thought it would be worth mentioning:
the racial heritage feat can't be used to take anything that an Aasimar gets, as it requires you to pick a humanoid race, which native outsiders very clearly are not...
Usually its Scion of Humanity Aasimars that take Racial Heritage though, not the other way around.
True
Personality and genetics are completely unrelated.
That's like saying there is only one race in the game.
I typically play humans because it's easiest for me to slip into the mindset and how they might interact with the world (can't see in the dark, no SLAs, etc). I also enjoy playing off the non-human characters. Also, no one really bats an eye at whatever class combo a human has. When a non-human character plays against type (elf monk, dwarf bard, etc), I've occasionally gotten push back from GMs (homebrew mostly---anything goes in Golarion).