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I looked at the gnoll race example from the Race builder and I felt that it was very underpowered and not very flavorful to what a gnoll was. So I decided to rework the race. I only gave myself 10 Race points. Please tell me what you think.
(0RP): Humanoid (Gnoll)
(0RP): Medium size
(0RP): Normal speed (30ft)
(0RP): +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha. Gnolls are strong and have a good understanding of pack tactics and strength in numbers, but their monstrous appearance and scavenger habits put them at odds with other races (I know people are going to argue with this, I didn't want to give them two physical stats. I felt wisdom could work in a tribal context)
(0RP): Normal language: Starts out with Gnoll and Common. Smart gnolls can learn Abyssal, Giant, Infernal, Orc, and Undercommon (learn does not mean speak).
(1RP): Plagueborn: Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, ingested poisons, and becoming nauseated or sickened.
(2RP): Desert runner: Members of this race receive a +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion, as well as any other ill effects from running, forced marches, starvation, thirst, and hot or cold environments.
(2RP): Scavenger: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste.
(1RP): Carrion Sense: Members of this race have a natural ability to sniff out carrion. This functions like the scent ability, but only for corpses and badly wounded creatures (creatures with 25% or fewer hit points).
(2RP): Darkvison 60 ft.
(1RP): Bite 1d6 damage (The guide said 1d3, I'll explain in the next spot)
(1RP): Improved bite 1d8 damage (The guide did say 1d3, but improved bite said to move bite damage up to one size category, but I couldn't find the damage for the next size category (which is probably 1d4 now that I think about it) and since gnolls are humanoid hyenas it would only make sense that they have a strong bite attack. Since hyenas have a bite of 1100 PSI)
So what do you all think?
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Seems silly and counter-intuitive with existing Gnoll stats.
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor, and 60 ft Darkvision (on top of the standard Medium Humanoid stuff) are a perfectly valid set of racial traits all on their own, and create, effectively, actual Gnolls. Why reinvent the wheel?
Let 'em take the Half Orc Feat or Trait if they want a bite attack.
Seems silly and counter-intuitive with existing Gnoll stats.
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor, and 60 ft Darkvision (on top of the standard Medium Humanoid stuff) are a perfectly valid set of racial traits all on their own, and create, effectively, actual Gnolls. Why reinvent the wheel?
Let 'em take the Half Orc Feat or Trait if they want a bite attack.
Where are those? Cause the ones I've seen don't have those exact stats.
There's the stats from the ARG for the gnoll
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Where are those? Cause the ones I've seen don't have those exact stats.Seems silly and counter-intuitive with existing Gnoll stats.
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor, and 60 ft Darkvision (on top of the standard Medium Humanoid stuff) are a perfectly valid set of racial traits all on their own, and create, effectively, actual Gnolls. Why reinvent the wheel?
Let 'em take the Half Orc Feat or Trait if they want a bite attack.
Extract the racial mods from the actual Gnoll stat block and ignore the racial hit dice and that's what you get. It's simple and pretty fair as compared to PC races, IMO. You could add some racial weapon familiarity if you like, I suppose.
Probably the beastiary stats.No bite tho :p
Seems silly and counter-intuitive with existing Gnoll stats.
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor, and 60 ft Darkvision (on top of the standard Medium Humanoid stuff) are a perfectly valid set of racial traits all on their own, and create, effectively, actual Gnolls. Why reinvent the wheel?
Let 'em take the Half Orc Feat or Trait if they want a bite attack.
I looked at the gnoll race example from the Race builder and I felt that it was very underpowered and not very flavorful to what a gnoll was. So I decided to rework the race.
The ARG stats reflect the stats of Gnolls in the Bestiary, the OP's stats seem closer to how Gnolls are depicted in the fiction.
The ARG stats reflect the stats of Gnolls in the Bestiary,They don't actually. The ARG stats don't give enough Strength, give too much Natural Armor, and don't assign Int or Cha penalties. Those...are not a good representation at all.
Agreed. Thus my desire to rework them.
Sorry, I didn't check, something about Adjule's response made me think he was saying your stats were those from the ARG. My bad.
Yes, the ARG isn't very accurate to the Bestiary either, though to me they seem closer than the OP's since he adds several bonuses/abilities not found at all in the Bestiary. Sort of a simplified version using the ARG rules.
Trying to hit it exactly right actually results in an interesting issue.
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Paragon (+4 Str, -2 Int/Wis/Cha) (1 RP)
Xenophobic (0 RP)
Advanced Con (4 RP)
Advanced Wis (4 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)
13 Total RP
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Specialized (+2 Str/Con, -2 Int) (1 RP)
Xenophobic (0 RP)
Advanced Str (4 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)
9 Total RP
(perhaps an ad hoc -1 RP to add a -2 to Cha, resulting in 8 Total RP)
You can make a "better" Gnoll cheaper than a normal Gnoll. Well, the ARG has admitted issues with the race builder, so, c'est la vie.
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You can make a "better" Gnoll cheaper than a normal Gnoll. Well, the ARG has admitted issues with the race builder, so, c'est la vie.
I am aware of this, and have been ever since the ARG came out (Gnolls were the first thing I ever tried to make). This is the primary source for my utter contempt for the race builder and how it works.
It's still an indisputably valid race either way, of course.
I think maybe I should just make my gnoll stats the stats for a sub-race or a special tribe of gnoll.
I think maybe I should just make my gnoll stats the stats for a sub-race or a special tribe of gnoll.Go for it. Normal Gnolls are more predatory, while this version are smaller and smarter, and seem to hew closer to their hyena roots as scavengers. That's some solid thematic space to occupy.
K. Though I would like to see a link to those stats you showcased earlier. What with the +4 Str.
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K. Though I would like to see a link to those stats you showcased earlier. What with the +4 Str.I think maybe I should just make my gnoll stats the stats for a sub-race or a special tribe of gnoll.Go for it. Normal Gnolls are more predatory, while this version are smaller and smarter, and seem to hew closer to their hyena roots as scavengers. That's some solid thematic space to occupy.
Well, there's this combined with this line from the Bestiary:
The creature's ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11.
...and then just removing the racial hit dice and treating it as a normal race.
Seems simplest.
The trick with taking a creature with racial HD and retconning it into something that is actually an NPC or PC race is that the base stats of such creatures are different.
As Deadmanwalking pointed out above, the base stats for a monster are all 10s and 11s. On the other hand,
Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)
So if you are assuming gnolls are an NPC or PC race then you have to reverse engineer the stat block as if it represents a gnoll warrior 2 instead of a creature with racial hit dice.
The Gnoll has scores of: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8
If we assumed racial bonuses of +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT you could generate a Gnoll with Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 8. That's close enough to say that this is a reasonable stat bonus array for this race.
BTW, I put the -2 in INT because frankly I think that gnolls should be better sorcerers or oracles than they should be wizards. But if you want to make it -2 CHA instead it works basically the same.
So you get this:
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Specialized (+2 Str/Con, -2 Int) (1 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)
At only 5 RP they definitely deserve a bit of love. I would probably just give them Bite (1RP) and Scent (4RP) and leave it at that. I know normal gnolls don't have scent, but then basic gnolls probably aren't searching for invisible creatures that often. As a GM in a homebrew game I would probably give my gnolls scent anyway to make the encounter more interesting, with an unknown but easily-guessable ability. At the very least gnolls should qualify for the keen scent feat as if they are half-orcs.
BTW you mention something about bite damage, but gnolls should not have a bite as powerful as that of an actual hyena. Regular hyenas do 1d6 (+3 for STR) which is enough to usually kill a 1hd creature or NPC class in one shot. A 1st-level gnoll PC or NPC with a bite would typically do 1d3+3 (or 1d3+1 as a secondary attack) which is plenty considering they can also use weapons.
If you built a gnoll fighter with 18 STR and power attack that would end up being 1d3+9 for a primary attack.
Peet
On the other hand,Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)
You lost me here.
It says "Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array."
But I fail to see how that is relevant since Gnolls don't have NPC class levels in the Bestiary entry.
That line refers to creatures such as Orc, which is presented as Orc Warrior 1, not Gnolls, which are only presented with racial HD.
Ralanr, if you were doing a full PC race write up, you could include the extra abilities as alternate racial traits. The only thing Gnolls really have to give up is Darkvision, but having the option to swap it out for one of Plagueborn, Desert Runner, Carrion Sense, Scavenger, or a Bite attack would introduce some variety. Maybe even more than one. Plagueborn and Carrion Sense together costs the same as Darkvision, Desert Runner, or Scavenger. The Bite attack I would put as 1d6.
I would give a bite or claw attacks in there, and maybe scent over darkvision
But I fail to see how that is relevant since Gnolls don't have NPC class levels in the Bestiary entry.
If you are doing them up as a PC or NPC race then they would. You need to reinterpret the bestiary entry as if it actually did have NPC class levels.
Either that or make all gnoll characters start with 2 racial HD and a level adjustment. But level adjustments are a big pain in the butt.
Peet
One of my favourite characters was a D&D3.5 half-gnoll druid called Stinky Bastard (he didn't know his real name so had always assumed that what people called him was his name). Fun days.
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You could save yourself some time and buy Cackle of the Gnolls.
And Emergence of the Aardvolk, also by Rogue Genius and SupaStah! Mike Welham. And there's always the gnoll PC race and other gnoll goodies detailed in the "Katapesh: Birthplace of Gnolls" article in Wayfinder #10 (free).
The trick with taking a creature with racial HD and retconning it into something that is actually an NPC or PC race is that the base stats of such creatures are different.
As Deadmanwalking pointed out above, the base stats for a monster are all 10s and 11s. On the other hand,
Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)So if you are assuming gnolls are an NPC or PC race then you have to reverse engineer the stat block as if it represents a gnoll warrior 2 instead of a creature with racial hit dice.
The Gnoll has scores of: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8
If we assumed racial bonuses of +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT you could generate a Gnoll with Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 8. That's close enough to say that this is a reasonable stat bonus array for this race.
BTW, I put the -2 in INT because frankly I think that gnolls should be better sorcerers or oracles than they should be wizards. But if you want to make it -2 CHA instead it works basically the same.
So you get this:
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Specialized (+2 Str/Con, -2 Int) (1 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)At only 5 RP they definitely deserve a bit of love. I would probably just give them Bite (1RP) and Scent (4RP) and leave it at that. I know normal gnolls don't have scent, but then basic gnolls probably aren't searching for invisible creatures that often. As a GM in a homebrew game I would probably give my gnolls scent anyway to make the encounter more interesting, with an unknown but easily-guessable ability. At the very least gnolls should qualify for the keen scent feat as if they are half-orcs.
BTW you mention something about bite damage, but gnolls should not have a bite as powerful as that of an actual hyena. Regular hyenas do 1d6 (+3 for STR) which is enough to usually kill a 1hd creature or NPC class in one shot. A 1st-level gnoll PC or NPC with a bite would typically do 1d3+3 (or...
That...is very informative and useful. I didn't know the hyena bite strength so I definitely need to lower that damage. I guess I should also make some of the racial traits I choose into more alternate racial traits. I'll ask my DM and see what she thinks, since the setting is her original world.
If you are doing them up as a PC or NPC race then they would. You need to reinterpret the bestiary entry as if it actually did have NPC class levels.Either that or make all gnoll characters start with 2 racial HD and a level adjustment. But level adjustments are a big pain in the butt.
Peet
.....No you don't.
The rules say monsters are built on 10 or 11 in all attributes, unless they have NPC class levels, in which case they are built on an array.
Since Gnolls don't have NPC levels, they are built on all 10 or 11.
Now that's just to find the attribute bonuses/penalties inherent in the race. Its HD don't come into play in stat generation. It doesn't even have 4 HD to justify a stat bump from HD.
And there is no level adjustment in Pathfinder. The rules for Monster PCs state that its CR = effective level before class is added. Gnolls are a CR 1 with 2 Racial HD. So a Gnoll Ranger 1 is the equivalent of a 2nd level character. This is the equivalent of a negative level adjustment in 3.5 DnD.
If you are doing them up as a PC or NPC race then they would. You need to reinterpret the bestiary entry as if it actually did have NPC class levels.Either that or make all gnoll characters start with 2 racial HD and a level adjustment. But level adjustments are a big pain in the butt.
Peet
.....No you don't.
The rules say monsters are built on 10 or 11 in all attributes, unless they have NPC class levels, in which case they are built on an array.
Since Gnolls don't have NPC levels, they are built on all 10 or 11.
Now that's just to find the attribute bonuses/penalties inherent in the race. Its HD don't come into play in stat generation. It doesn't even have 4 HD to justify a stat bump from HD.
And there is no level adjustment in Pathfinder. The rules for Monster PCs state that its CR = effective level before class is added. Gnolls are a CR 1 with 2 Racial HD. So a Gnoll Ranger 1 is the equivalent of a 2nd level character. This is the equivalent of a negative level adjustment in 3.5 DnD.
Maybe you don't realize it but you are basically making my point here.
You are talking about the rules for playing a monster as a PC, and you could go that route. But as you say, "This is the equivalent of a negative level adjustment in 3.5 DnD." (though actually you mean positive, not negative - negative is for weak guys like kobolds). This basically agrees with my statement of "Either that or make all gnoll characters start with 2 racial HD and a level adjustment" even if they are not called level adjustments any more.
What the OP wants is not to play a gnoll as a monster PC but instead as a character race, which means playing the character as a gnoll from level 1. So that means figuring out what the equivalent gnoll would be like if it had NPC class levels instead of racial HD.
When I look at it now, the equivalent gnoll warrior 2 I have outlined above has almost identical stats. It is actually slightly better than the base gnoll since its BAB would be 1 point higher, and HP will be increased by 2 (since warrior is full BAB and uses a d10 instead of d8 for HP). Saves get a +1 to will because of my version having WIS 12, and skills are the same.
Come to think of it, I am trying to see why the base gnoll is a CR1 creature. It is very close to (and actually not as good as) the modified gnoll warrior 2 and that would normally be CR 1/2. Perhaps the CR formulas for creatures with class levels are out of whack with the others.
Peet
No. You don't see to understand at all. I only mentioned Monster PC rules to correct your misconception that there is a level adjustment in Pathfinder.
In 3.5, you would start with Racial HD (so, 2 for a Gnoll), add class levels (for ex, Ranger 1), then add a level adjustment since Gnoll is "better" than normal PC races (say, LA 1).
So a Gnoll Ranger 1 in 3.5 would be a 4th level character.
In Pathfinder, there is no level adjustment. The effective level is equal to CR, then add class levels. So a 2 HD Gnoll (CR 1) is only a 1st level character.
A PF Gnoll Ranger 1 is a 2nd level character (with 3 HD total).
Ergo, the "level adjusment" is actually negative (it's effective level is less than its HD).
But, none of that has anything at all to do with figuring out what the race's attribute bonuses or penalties are. No where in the rules does it say anything about pretending a monster with no levels in a class has levels in a class to determine what its attribute adjustments are. You just made it up!
What it does say is that monsters with no class level are based on all 10's and 11's. That's it.
Further, the rules for monster advancement state to add +4, +4, +2, +2, -2 if you add class levels to a monster. Amazingly, that turns the all 10/11 base stat line into 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 basically recreating the PC class monster array.
Would you create a dwarf cleric PC with 10 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha? Or how about an elf wizard PC with 10 Str, 12 Dex, 8 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha?
That is all the PC class monster array is there for. To show that monsters with a class level are exceptional, and so have higher stats.
Until you can point us to where it actually says anything like your supposition in the text, I don't see any support.
No. You don't see to understand at all. I only mentioned Monster PC rules to correct your misconception that there is a level adjustment in Pathfinder.
In 3.5, you would start with Racial HD (so, 2 for a Gnoll), add class levels (for ex, Ranger 1), then add a level adjustment since Gnoll is "better" than normal PC races (say, LA 1).
So a Gnoll Ranger 1 in 3.5 would be a 4th level character.
In Pathfinder, there is no level adjustment. The effective level is equal to CR, then add class levels. So a 2 HD Gnoll (CR 1) is only a 1st level character.
A PF Gnoll Ranger 1 is a 2nd level character (with 3 HD total).
Ah, I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying. Of course, you are still faced with the issue of having a character with racial HD instead of only class HD. If you are actually trying to make a standard PC race that race must have no racial HD and start at level 1 with a class level.
No where in the rules does it say anything about pretending a monster with no levels in a class has levels in a class to determine what its attribute adjustments are. You just made it up!
It's not the rule... it's the GOAL. The rules are the race builder from the ARG. The GOAL is to create a race that walks and talks like a gnoll but is actually a PC race with no racial HD. That means reverse engineering the race so that the bestiary entry would work if it was a PC race.
If you want to use the "Monster as PC" rules go ahead, but that's not what the OP is trying to do.
Peet
I am not using the Monster PC rules. I am trying to point out that to reach the GOAL you follow the RULES, not just make them up.
We are discussing what the ability score modifiers for Gnoll are, in order to make a 0 racial HD version for PC use.
The normal Gnoll stats are Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8.
Since Gnolls don't have class levels, you subtract 10 or 11 to determine their ability score modifiers (RULE).
You say we should instead subtract the "monster with PC class" array. But there is no reason to do so. They don't have class levels and their racial HD don't affect their attributes in any way!
The Bestiary Gnoll has +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. It also has 2 racial HD. These two things are not related!
So to make a PC Gnoll race with 0 HD, it would still have +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha.
If you did have a Gnoll with PC class levels, its stats would be Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 6 because the RULES. By subtracting the array instead of 10/11 you are subtracting a bonus that wasn't there in the first place (the extra +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 the RULES say monster get when taking class levels)!
I have no problem with the Goal. But the rules already tell us how to derive the ability score modifiers, there's no reason to make up or misapply other rules to do so.
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Specialized (+2 Str/Con, -2 Int) (1 RP)
Xenophobic (0 RP)
Advanced Str (4 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)9 Total RP
an ad hoc -1 RP to add a -2 to Cha, resulting in 8 Total RP
I really like the op's stats. Very flavorful. I think we can all agree the original gnoll stats are pretty bland. I did something similar with a gnoll ranger I'm playing with now. I gave mine scent. It's surprisingly useful.
I feel like the full blown gnoll of 3.5 can only be realized through an archetype version of level adjustments..
IE
Gnoll fighter/barbarian/rogue/druid/cleric/alchemist archetypes which gimp/replace certain class features for a stronger creature
I ended up changing a few things and doing a final edit. The gnolls became a sub race of gnolls so they have some differences (IE stats). I also ended up writing up lore, but I'm not going to post that cause that is about three pages worth.
The Doa Gnolls
Stats
Female: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int. Female gnolls are strong and have a pragmatic way of looking at things, but are rather simplistic.
Height- 7-7'6, weight 260-300
Male: +2 Cha, +2 Wis, -2 Con. Male gnolls are equally pragmatic but less intimidating, but are smaller and physically weaker
Height 6'5-7, weight 220-260
Medium
Normal speed (30ft)
Languages: Gnoll and Common, smart gnolls can learn Abyssal, Giant, Infernal, Orc, undercommon, Catfolk
Doa gnolls share many similarities with regular gnolls. The only difference is that their fur always has a spotted pattern. Their eyes are than green or yellow. Doa gnolls also live longer but age slower than normal gnolls due to the fact that they have no demonic taint within them. Their lifespan is actually very similar to that of half-orcs, reaching adulthood at age 14. (Shares starting ages with half-orcs).
Traits:
Plagueborn: +2 saving throws to disease, nausea, ingested poisons, and sickened.
Desert Runner: +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion, as well as running, forced march, starve, thirst, hot and cold environments.
Bite: 1d4 bite damage
Darkvison: Darkvison 60ft
Carrion sense: Scent like ability for corpses or badly wounded creatures (25% or fewer hit points)
Scavenger: +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Perception checks to find hidden objects (traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled or identify a potion by taste.
Yes Males have different stats, I really wanted to implement that there is a big difference between the females and the males. My DM really liked the race and put it in the new world she is making.
I am not using the Monster PC rules. I am trying to point out that to reach the GOAL you follow the RULES, not just make them up.
The RULE you are quoting is not meant to apply to monsters being played as PCs. It is for Monsters as NPCs. Setting something up for players has to account for the fact that their base attributes will be much higher than the base attributes of a monster. The +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2 you refer to is only a 12-point build.
The RULES I am using, as I mentioned before, are the Race Builder rules in the ARG. Under those rules a race CANNOT get the advanced ability score trait unless you are designing an advanced race, i.e. ~20 RP or more. Your build is not allowed.
The only way you can get a +4 to anything is by choosing Paragon or Greater Paragon. Neither of them lets you get a bonus to more than one ability. But we want to get a bonus for both STR and CON. The only way to get that is the Specialized trait.
Peet
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The RULES I am using, as I mentioned before, are the Race Builder rules in the ARG. Under those rules a race CANNOT get the advanced ability score trait unless you are designing an advanced race, i.e. ~20 RP or more. Your build is not allowed.
You're factually wrong about what those rules state. An Advanced Race is 11-20 Race Points, and thus absolutely PC eligible without modification. Dwarves are an Advanced Race. You're thinking of Monstrous Races...but Advanced Ability only requires Advanced.
Check your terminology.
The RULES I am using, as I mentioned before, are the Race Builder rules in the ARG. Under those rules a race CANNOT get the advanced ability score trait unless you are designing an advanced race, i.e. ~20 RP or more. Your build is not allowed.
The only way you can get a +4 to anything is by choosing Paragon or Greater Paragon. Neither of them lets you get a bonus to more than one ability. But we want to get a bonus for both STR and CON. The only way to get that is the Specialized trait.
And I posted a version that is an Advanced Race, and uses Paragon.
Humanoid (0 RP)
Medium (0 RP)
Speed 30 (0 RP)
Paragon (+4 Str, -2 Int/Wis/Cha) (1 RP)
Xenophobic (0 RP)
Advanced Con (4 RP)
Advanced Wis (4 RP)
Natural Armor (2 RP)
Darkvision 60 (2 RP)13 Total RP
As Deadmanwalking points out dwarves, aasimar, tieflings, and tengu (fairly common races judging by posts, and dwarves are Core) are all Advanced races.
But you are the one who mentioned "pretending" Gnolls had class levels to subtract the classed monster array. I am just saying, if you are pretending, you should use all the rules for classed monsters.
The +4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2 applied to a stat line of all 10/11 gives you.....the classed monster array! Its almost like they were being consistent that monsters with or without racial HD that have a class use the same array....weird.
Sidenote as far as the ARG Gnoll, I did note there is a line that states "Note that these races are only an approximation of their monstrous counterparts and may not match exactly." So at least it was intentional that the ARG examples don't match the actual monster stats.
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Ralanr's last post on the Paizo Forums was in 2014, so you're probably not gonna get an answer.
I'm tempted to reverse engineer the NPC stats (someone else may have done this already, I haven't read the whole thread) and the base Gnolls. Treating them as a race implies that the bestiary gnoll is a grunt with standard NPC stats.
A stereotypical melee grunt NPC (using the CRB) yields stats of 13/11/12/9/10/8 before racial modifiers.
The bestiary gnoll is 15/10/13/8/11/8.
I do it this way because I have more guidelines, but this implies that the low charisma of a grunt gnoll is because they're a grunt, not because of racial modifiers.
So at least for a Male Grunt I would definitely have increased strength. Candidates for a boost are CON and WIS. Candidates for a penalty are DEX and INT. Since there's a lot of odd numbers it's imprecise so I'll pick what feels right.
So I would do STR +2, WIS +2, and INT -2. I agree about avoiding two physical bonuses, and I don't really like Gnolls being inherently slower than other races. All this for a male at least if we have sexual dimorphism.
That's just my approach though, many valid ways to it. :P
Edit: I now see Peet did the same above. Oh well, it was still fun.
It looks like you're building the race for something you want to play, which is all fine if your DM is on the same page with you.
But I would say that they probably should have a +2 to Str but more likely Con. Then if you wanted a mental ability it would be either +2 to Int or Cha, but not wisdom.
Just so you know, gnolls, just like hyenas, have larger stronger females than males. It makes no sense for males to get a STR bonus and be physically focused and females have a physical penalty.
Gnoll packs are matriarchal because female gnolls tend to be larger, more aggressive, and more cunning than males.
Perhaps then female Gnolls could get a boost like the difference between Drow and Drow nobles, of they are to be specifically more powerful.
Perhaps then female Gnolls could get a boost like the difference between Drow and Drow nobles, of they are to be specifically more powerful.
I’d say best to just not make sexually dimorphic stats without major differences like the lashunta have. Key word here is “tend.” Stat wise, Paizo has not seperated gnolls by gender so I’d say best not to either. There’s a large can of worms the spills into real life here I’m not going to touch with the standard starting gear 10ft pole.
Not to mention there already is a Drow Noble equivalent out there in the form of flinds which are gnolls created by selected breeding. Going by race builder rules, it requires 52rp to make a flind so even more mosterous than the Drow noble’s already impressive 43rp.
It’s only that high using the silly built on 10s and 11s philosophy. Frankly the fact that a Paizo’s race builder gnoll creation does NOT follow this philosophy means it’s not a hard and fast rule.
Once again, you’re making on adverage female gnolls less physically capable than males. That is explicitly not the case. Unlike humans and many other species, gnoll females on adverage are physically stronger. You need to get the human bias out of your head. If you want to put a penalty someplace other than Int, put it in Cha then. Scaring from the ritualistic birthing process could have impacted their good looks and damaged their view of themselves.
Since gnolls are such a brutal culture, it also makes sense for them to be build using either specualized or flexible stats to allow for two physical stat bonuses.
Yet it’s stated females are usually stronger than the males. Not only are you trying to give different stat bonuses to different sexes when the only race that has that is sexually dimorphic to the point that they look like different species, but you’re doing it backwards from the lore.
There is a reason there is the options for races in the race build can have bonuses to two physical stats, some races are physically specialized. It makes since for gnolls to have bonuses to both Str and Con for both sexes. They are all warriors and undergo brutal harsh living conditions feasting on scraps regardless of sex, all need a good Con. And birth isn’t the only brutal rituals they have.
Also most Barbarians have a Str focus in addition to Con and gnoll leaders (again mostly females) are usually Rangers.