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So basically i have taken the time to create the stats using 3.0 Deities and demigods excellent ruleset, with the help of mythic adventures, have proved to be quite nice. i would like some feedback or help, since i don't even know if this is 100% correct, there is a lot of stuff going on and i am not aware of all, as i am not the best spotting errors.
Caiden Cailean
Fighter 20/Duelist 10/Champion 10
CN Medium Outsider (Deity)
Divine Rank 14
Initiative: +34 (Dex +12 Improved Initiative+4 Improved Reaction+4 Duelist Weapon +4 Mythic Initiative +10); Senses True Seeing 120ft, Perception +41
Languages: understand, speak, and read all languages and speak directly to all beings within 14 miles
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AC 69 (+9 armor, +12 Dexterity, +5 dodge, +14 Divine +9 Deflection+20 Natural)
Touch: 40
Flat Footed: 52
DR 49/Epic
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (outsider) plus 20d10+200 (Fighter) plus 10d10+200 (Duelist) +50 Mythic (1,050 hp)
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +23, Will +17
Resist, fire resistance 34, sonic resistance 34
Immune Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment
Fast healing 34
Spell Resistance 46
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Speed: 70 ft. (14 squares)
Melee: Cleverpoint +46/+46/+46/+41/+36 melee (1d6+33 /15–20/x4)
Ranged by weapon +52
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Domain powers, salient divine abilities, spell-like abilities.
Special Qualities: remote communication, godly realm, teleport without error at will, plane shift at will, fast movement, uncanny dodge (cannot be flanked) divine aura (1,400 ft., DC 33).
Spell-like Abilities (CL 16th)
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Base Attack/CMB: +30/+42; Combat Maneuver Defense: 62
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 34, Con 30, Int 28, Wis 24, Cha 36
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Improved disarm, Greater Disarm, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Finesse, Greater Weapon Specialization, Devastating Strike, Improved Critical, Point Blank Shot, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Feint, Furious Focus, Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical, Stunning Critical, Critical Mastery, Quick Draw, Greater Weapon Focus. Combat Reflexes. Deflect Arrows,
Mythic Feats: Mythic Agile Maneuvers, Mythic Combat Reflexes, Mythic Critical Focus, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Improved critical.
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Skills: (350 Skill Points) Acrobatics +45(30), Bluff +46 (30) Craft+27(15), Climb +23(10), Diplomacy +28(15) Escape Artist +45(30), Fly +32(20), Intimidate +31(15), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +27(15), Knowledge (History) +25(15) Knowledge (Arcana) +19(10) Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +27 (15), Knowledge (Religion) +27(15), Perception +41(30), Perform+31(15) Ride +20(5), Sense Motive +41(30), Sleight of hand+27(15) Survival +26(15), Swim +33(20)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Avatar Divine Blast, Divine Blessing (Strength), Divine Fast Healing, Divine Inspiration (Courage) Divine Shield, Divine Weapon Focus (Rapier) Extra Energy Resistance (sonics), Gift of Life. Water to Beer.
Domain Powers: Cast chaos spells at +1 caster level; cast good
Spells at +1 caster level; 14/day reroll a die roll once after it is made
Spell-Like Abilities: Caiden Cailean uses these abilities as a 24th-level caster, except for chaos spells and good spells, which he uses as a 25th level caster. The save DCs are 33 + spell level. Aid, animate objects, blade barrier, break enchantment, Cat’s grace, chaos hammer, cloak of chaos, dispel evil, dispel law, endure elements, entropic shield, holy aura, holy smite, holy word, magic circle against evil, magic circle against law, magic vestment, miracle, mislead, protection from elements, protection from evil, protection from law, righteous might, shatter, spell immunity, spell turning, stoneskin, summon monster IX (as chaos or good spell only), word of chaos.
A Pint of cold one: Caiden can summon anytime, one pint of any size he wants, with beer of the best quality.
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Fighter (free hand) and Duelist Features: Deceptive Strike, Weapon Mastery, Reversal, Interference, Timely Tip, Singleton +3, Elusive +5
Canny defense, Improved Reaction +4, Parry, Enhanced Mobility, Riposte, Grace, Acrobatic Charge, Elaborate Defense, No Retreat, Crippling Critical.
Standard Mythic Features: Hard to Kill (Ex) Amazing initiative, surge +1d12, legendary hero, Unstoppable, Force of will, Mythic saves, Recuperation, Mythic Power (20/day)
Champion Features: Fleet Charge, Mythic Weapon training, punishing blow, imprinting hand, Maximized Critical, Incredible Parry, Elemental Fury, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Shatter Spells, impossible speed, Legendary Champion.
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Possessions: Caiden’s Rapier Cleverpoint, is an adamantine +5 Duelist Rapier. Cleverpoint is intelligent, with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 24. It can speak and communicate telepathically. It has a chaotic Neutral alignment and has the following special powers, usable at will: detect lawful evil alignment, find traps, detect magic, locate object (120-foot radius), and true seeing. It also can use detect thoughts three times per day. Cleverpoint has a special purpose to slay lawful evil aberrations. When the sword strikes such a
Creature, it must make a Will save (DC 23) or die.
Caster Level: 20th; Weight: 6 lb.
Caiden’s Armor is +5 Mitral Heavy Fortification Chainshirt and casts overland flight. Freedom of movement and haste at will.
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Other Abilities
As an intermediate deity, Caiden automatically receives a die result of
20 on any check. He treats a 1 on a saving throw or attack roll normally and not as an automatic failure. He is immortal.
Senses: Caiden can see, hear, touch, and smell at a distance of fourteen miles. As a standard action, he can perceive anything within fourteen miles of his worshipers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken in the last hour. He can extend his senses to up to ten locations at once. He can block the sensing power of deities of his rank or lower at up to two remote locations at once for 14 hours.
Portfolio Sense: Caiden senses any act of courage the instant it happens and retains the sensation for fourteen weeks after the event occurs. He is likewise aware of any Beverage Festival and any outstanding achievement of Drinking. Automatic Actions: Caiden can use any Strength- or Dexterity related skill as free action if the DC for the task is 25 or lower. To use a skill as a free action, Caiden must have ranks in the skill, or the skill must be usable untrained.
Dot
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The perfect stat block for archdevils/gods:
Init He goes first; Senses all; Perception He sees you
DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wants
@Ross OMG that was so hilarious LMAO
Well actually i did this because my players encountered with Caiden Cailean, and some of them played 3rd Edition and they said: "dude but you have to roll skills for Caiden Cailean too, is not fair."
I was like...ok you want me to roll for his stuff? i'll create the stats, no problem. so here it is.
Also i saw Iomedae appear in WotR, so Paizo is not sooo Reluctant to hide deities direct contact.
Unlike many, I'm totally groovy with statting out gods.
I like the concept, haven't had time to fully explore your written work, and the implications of it.
Also, I do like Ross'/Kthulu's thing, too. :D
(Also, I don't think Iomedae had stats, but I'm working on avoiding spoilers for that path, so I don't know for sure.)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LordBritishPostulate
If you stat it, they will kill it.
Anyway, why would't he be Chaotic Good? Since that's basically the only thing we really know about him that would fit on a character sheet, that at least should be right...
Hmmm yes you are totally right xD he IS Chaotic Good, you can see in his spell-like abilities, that he has got some "good descriptor" spells and that he can cast good spells with a bonus. but that was a mistake, thanks for pointing out :D that is exactly what i wanted, doing this godly stuff alone is kind of difficult xD any help is appreciated a lot.
And yes, i have no problem if they kill him, if they can :) haha.
Also, i think you are right, he should be a Lesser Deity in Original Setting, the problem is that this stats are for Caiden Cailean in my setting, he got lots of Power coming from the popularity of his religion, with the clerics telling all the drunkards "every tavern is a shrine."
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The perfect stat block for archdevils/gods:
Init He goes first; Senses all; Perception He sees you
DEFENSE
AC You don't hit him
hp More than you'll ever whittle away, even if you could hit him
Auto-Save vs Mortals
OFFENSE
Speed: Damn Fast
Melee: He kills you
Ranged: He kills you from across the room
Special Attacks: Lots of them
STATISTICS
Str High, Dex High, Con High, Int High, Wis High, Cha High
Base Atk His attack succeeds; CMB He gets you; CMD You don't get him
Feats: Most of them
Skills: Most of them Auto-Succeed
SQ: Lots of them
Combat Gear: Pretty much anything he wants
I LOVE this statblock. lol!
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On a serious note, there is a glaring omission from the statblock. I would assume that any god would have a full compliment of artifact equipment, well outside the bounds of the normal magic item rules. The best way to handle it I thing would be having this to actually be an avatar rather than the god itself. The gods are ascended well beyond having to care enough to contact directly.
Hmmm yes you are totally right xD he IS Chaotic Good
Thank Cayden, I thought you knew something I didn't.
Anyway, I don't think the Pathfinder rules need to stat out the gods because they don't plan on publishing anything where they would A) want you to fight a god and B) want you to kill a god.
But hey, if you're homebrewing it that's your setting now. More power to you. I wouldn't be inclined to do something like that as a GM, but I would admit that as a player it could be one Hell of an adventure. Good luck!
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Is this drunken hero such a high intermediate god? It's possible, he seems to be respected in every bar lol. However he became a deity from the test of the star, and fairly recently, this to me says he wouldn't be intermediate, but maybe he has enough worshipers.He accumulates them quite easily. Every time anybody with a hangover says "Oh God," they're making a supplication to him.
Discworld, Hogfather. There's the oh god of hangovers. Not the god of hangovers, mind you, the oh god of hangovers.
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My word carries no weight, but I am totally ok with statting out gods. most of the time, they can't be challenged, because everyone forgets that they have purview of their portfolio. and if they aren't in their element to begin with, then someone isn't doing their job (unless the god is trying to get in on another god's turf).
most campaigns you won't have a run-in. but some games, are meant to. I was in a long run-on campaign lasting almost a year called the god slayer. while we encountered them often, we never actually had the chance to kill any. also, that was a 12 person group so no one wanted the 6 hour session to go past midnight.
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If doing this at all (which I wouldn't), I'd make him a gestalt Fighter (Lore Warden)/Swashbuckler then stack Duelist/Chevalier on top of that for three levels, then 7 of Duelist/Rogue. All still Gestalt, naturally.
His stats also aren't nearly high enough. I'd add, oh, call it 20 to Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha and 10 each to Str and Con. In Pathfinder, PCs are not smarter than the Gods. That should remain true, IMO.
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I'm torn. I half believe gods shouldn't be statted out, but damn would I like to play/DM a game which culminates in a battle with Asmodeus. Maybe a weakened Asmodeus would do, so his stats would reflect that (with a series of quests to undermine him beforehand in which his power is stripped away, bit by bit). Ah, would that be cool...
No, i don't actually support Gestalt in my setting, it would be against the rules, Caiden is a Chaotic Deity, but he still needs to play the rules, actually in my setting he just broke some Multiplanar Rules and other gods are in a war with him, the PC's are helping him to prove he is innocent, even acted as mediators to Gorum, which pretty mad.
I truly think you got a point, he do need more stats, so i will add 10 levels more of other class, maybe Bard or Rogue.
I think my main interest is his saves. I'm not sure why, but I feel like his saves are horrendously low. Monks and Paladins at much lower levels than 30 with 10 Mythic Tiers can reach saves almost as high as that with a cloak of resistance.
I also appreciate the final at-will SLA. Good on you.
(Also, why isn't he a drunken master monk, just saying haha)
No, i don't actually support Gestalt in my setting, it would be against the rules, Caiden is a Chaotic Deity, but he still needs to play the rules, actually in my setting he just broke some Multiplanar Rules and other gods are in a war with him, the PC's are helping him to prove he is innocent, even acted as mediators to Gorum, which pretty mad.
I truly think you got a point, he do need more stats, so i will add 10 levels more of other class, maybe Bard or Rogue.
Just adding more classes isn't really the way to go.
Take a look at the monster advancement tables (I'd recommend looking at the mythic monsters as a way to go at the base, but I'm not finding that CR table right now... sorry, my search-fu is weak).
Your goal should be to target a CR somewhere above the highest of those numbers, then justify it with in-character selections.
My recommendation would be to do this before working with the divine ranks.
As far as base statistics, you can get rather strong ones by starting with some of the presumptions from the Deities & Demigods book and tweaking them.
Start a god with "rolled" all 18s (this is a +7 or +8 for most monster-gods). Add +6 inherent bonuses to all scores (more than mortal magic can grant, though some archetypes can achieve that to a specific score), netting you a base minimum of 24.
Going by the Deities & Demigods rule book, then, you'd have about 15 extra points to "spend" on ability scores (about the same as you'd get by granting 60 extra levels, incidentally...), however I'm not so sure that's the way to go about it.
I've often thought about the limits and nature of divinity and their stats and have come up with lots of very different things as a result. However, given that we're working on making it a PF-style deity, I'd actually recommend (instead of an arbitrary 15 points to spend) one or two of the strangest templates devised: the paragon creature template, or a variant of the monster of legend template (or, if you feel you need the power, both). These both reflect a substantial increase in power over the base creature in excess of +15 ability points to spread around (that have no real way to determine why they are there). As for the monster of legend, I'd recommend noting that it's ability scores, much like the half-celestial or half-fiend be arranged to taste instead of "in order", granting it floating two +10s, a +6, a +4, and two +2s to apply as desired. The paragon creature doesn't matter, as it gets +15 to most everything, including ability scores (though I might simplify the math a bit and actually make it +15 to everything).
Why all this focus on scores? Because those will help shore up some of Cailean's weaknesses and make him a more potent creature over-all. Plus, it's a first place to start, like building a character.
After that, determine how many hit dice you'd need to get to the hp/saves/attack/etc of the CR you're going for. If you don't have any idea, just go for CR 35, which is 5 higher than the highest prepublished threat, to my understanding. Again, I don't have access to the mythic CR chart right now... sorry!
In any event, after you've achieved that CR-equivalent value (or higher)... then layer the divine ranks and special abilities and ability increases onto him.
Remember to overlap similar bonuses, but I think that'll fix most of the issues.
As for his WLB, just presume he's got access to the best of everything.
+10 weapon (heck, make it a legendary item that's unique to him)
a +10 armor
and the most expensive magic item in a given slot that you care to give him (not "the most expensive magic item for a given slot", but "the most expensive magic item for a given slot that you care to give him", which is an important difference), like a cloak, bracers, etc
and so on
If you make the equipment's value entirely dependent upon him and his presence (like a combination masterwork transformation, a mythic variant of greater magic weapon or magic vestment plus some sort of variant divine bond more chaos-themed that also works on stuff like bracers or cloaks or whatever, you could even entirely obviate the need for truly magical equipment - so no robbing the divine powers that be for their stuff, for example, because away from the god, it's just a really nice bracer, cloak, or masterwork armor.
Anyway, hope that helps...
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I've never quite understood why gods "shouldn't be statted out." So long as they're not literally omnipotent (and I've no desire to start a discussion on monads and other philosophical constructs dealing in some manner with such matters), there's no reason why they can't have parameters put on them, if such is your desire. Paizo's decision, I think, had almost nothing to do with, say, reverence for deity and much more to do with avoiding the, "We wiped out that self-righteous bîtch Iomedae in one round! Booyah!" threads.
Humans aren't omnipotent. But in an RPG where you played an ant, there wouldn't be much point in providing stats for a human, would there? To you, as an ant, the human might as well be omnipotent.
If it notices you, in can instantly kill you (squash the ant), it can magically transport you to a far-away foreign land (fling the ant across the room), it can cause you to burst into flames (focus a magnifying glass on the ant), or do one of a million other things that prove that it is, for all intents and purposes, omnipotent.
Same concept.
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I've never quite understood why gods "shouldn't be statted out." So long as they're not literally omnipotent (and I've no desire to start a discussion on monads and other philosophical constructs dealing in some manner with such matters), there's no reason why they can't have parameters put on them, if such is your desire. Paizo's decision, I think, had almost nothing to do with, say, reverence for deity and much more to do with avoiding the, "We wiped out that self-righteous bîtch Iomedae in one round! Booyah!" threads.Humans aren't omnipotent. But in an RPG where you played an ant, there wouldn't be much point in providing stats for a human, would there? To you, as an ant, the human might as well be omnipotent.
Same concept.
This is my general viewpoint as well, for the record.
His saves are very low.
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In my opinion, in this game, humans can aspire to anything, with our intrepidity and fire of spirit, so long as those aspirations aren't infinitely distant. If the gods aren't all-powerful (and they aren't), then humans should be able to challenge, and even, perhaps, defeat them.
Man can find a way, or make one.
I think the "the gods are not all-powerful, but are so far beyond reach and comprehension that challenging them is idiotic under any circumstances" is a viable concept. I just happen not to like it. It seems somehow unnecessarily limiting in a game the limits of which are defined by imagination.
I actually agree...but would note that clever ants can kill humans. They just need to do so indirectly (I'm pretty sure an ant with human level intelligence could poison someone's food, for instance), not in ways that involve direct stat comparisons. Though Gods do have reason to believe ants might be poisoning their food, and are probably smarter than you (if less focused on you than you are on them) and you thus need to be extra clever to pull it off.
Direct stat comparisons? People lose at those vs. Gods. Unless they become a God, of course, but that involves going over CR 30 and departing the realm of the game rules as we know them.
Never like the 20 outsider HD from DDG. Use dicefreaks deity rules for a better 3.5 integration of epic and deification rules.
That said PF can handle avatars now with mythic. My Cayden: Urban Drunken/Drinking Barbarian x / Duelist x/ Chevalier 3 (MR x)
PS isn't there a freedom fighter/anti slavery prestige clas somewhere ?
I actually agree...but would note that clever ants can kill humans. They just need to do so indirectly (I'm pretty sure an ant with human level intelligence could poison someone's food, for instance), not in ways that involve direct stat comparisons.
Even here, you're not really thinking through in terms of scale. The carrying capacity of a typical ant is about 0.2 grams, so it would need to be a very powerful poison to have a significant effect on a human.
And by assuming "an ant with human level intelligence," you've already make an assumption many people would find questionable. Why do you assume that humans are on the cognitive scale of gods? One of the standard aspects of the D&D "divine rank" system was supernatural awareness on the part of the divinities -- even a "dumb" deity would automatically be aware of things involving their interests no matter how cunningly hidden. So the idea that a mere mortal would even know the appropriate weaknesses of a god is questionable at best.
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Even here, you're not really thinking through in terms of scale. The carrying capacity of a typical ant is about 0.2 grams, so it would need to be a very powerful poison to have a significant effect on a human.
Indeed! And where would an ant get such a thing? A difficult quest indeed. Perhaps...the sort of thing an entire campaign would need to be devoted to? Yes...that sounds right.
See where I'm going with this?
And by assuming "an ant with human level intelligence," you've already make an assumption many people would find questionable. Why do you assume that humans are on the cognitive scale of gods?
I don't actually. If you'd quoted my whole post, I noted the various reasons it would be even harder than my example...and note the God being smarter than you as one among many (though I'd argue the 52 or so Int you can get in Pathfinder stacking everything is starting to get within the deific range). I then follow up with "if less focused on you than you are on them". Gods are clearly much better at multitasking than mortals, but not being omniscient or omnipotent I'd presume there are ways, particularly as say level 20/mythic tier 10 PCs, to slip out of that notice and do things that they don't realize you're doing. And even a super genius genius can be blindsided by someone with an IQ of 80 if he doesn't see it coming.
One of the standard aspects of the D&D "divine rank" system was supernatural awareness on the part of the divinities -- even a "dumb" deity would automatically be aware of things involving their interests no matter how cunningly hidden. So the idea that a mere mortal would even know the appropriate weaknesses of a god is questionable at best.
Gods aren't omniscient, even with in their areas of interest, they get blindsided in areas they care about or have influence over by things with stats a decent amount of the time. I refer you to the Worldwound for an excellent example of this in action (or large sections of the WotR AP). It's much more difficult to do so in a way that results in that God's death...but not impossible.
side note, I think almost every deity in 'deities and demigods' had 20 cleric levels. most had 40 class levels with few exceptions.
EDIT: also 20 Outsider HD, if i recall correctly
You are correct on the 20HD of outsider, but not the 20 cleric levels. It's... actually a common misconception about them, it seems. I'm guessing that, somewhere in the text, there's some line or set of lines that seems to indicate that they all do or all should have levels of cleric and people just gloss over it and go, "Yep, they've all got 20 levels of cleric."
Despite having read through the book a dozen times I sincerely thought they had 20 cleric levels each until someone pointed it out to me, and I was all like, "Pshaw, naw, they've got-... huh. I guess they don't all have 20 cleric levels. Some don't have any!" Many certainly do, but, for example, most of the Norse Pantheon lacks cleric levels (barbarian seeming to be the most favored class from memory), while some ascended deities (Hercules, Imhotep) don't have them, and several long-term gods lack them altogether (I know this is true, but... I've forgotten who by now; maybe Erythnul? Correlon? Bahamut and Tiamat lack them for sure...).
Also, a slight correction for the above, the deities in the Deities & Demigods book mostly all had 20HD of outsider. Some newly ascended gods, such as Vecna, Hercules, or the like, lacked that, as did any Dragon gods (Bahamut, Tiamat, and Apep), though old ascended gods (like St. Cuthbert) had them anyway. In Faiths and Pantheons (basically Forgotten Realms' version of Deities & Demigods), some gods didn't even have outsider hit dice... and others had more than 40 levels. Bane, in particular, combined these two things to get something akin to 65 class levels with no outsider hit dice, making him 5HD higher than most any other deity in the book (appropriate and slightly frightening... so, you know, appropriate).
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I would think that most if not all of the gods have pretty good surveillance on everyone who is level 20/mythic tier 10, unless there are thousands of those types running around the planet. It is like when ESPN interviews a star from the NBA or NFL--those guys always know who the big college players are; they aren't in their league, but they are on their radar.
Oh, sure. To some degree. That's why you need to be tricky about it. Personally, I think you could do a fun campaign where such a character basically arranges events without any overt acts on his part so that a group of 1st level characters are motivated to do X,Y, and Z, gaining levels and even Mythic Tiers along the way, as part of his plot to kill a particular God (with the 1st level characters being the PCs), and then, as the game progresses, they eventually figure out what's going on and get to decide whether to go through with it or kill the guy who's been messing with them. Or both!
It'd be no more railroad-y than many adventures, and there'd be IC justification for it.
a side note, just cause you are a god, doesn't mean you are intelligent. in fact, while you divine capabilities give you great surveillance, you may not be very perceptive or wise. you could be a god and absolutely suck at social graces, leadership, etc.
hopefully not all of those things at once. basically, what i am trying to say is this: gods don't necessarily have crazy high stats in all areas. nor should they, many of them are even described as mortal being who ascended into divinity through various means. and those born into it had to be raised, and we all know how zeus wasn't the best parent or role model (ate his own daughter to prevent her from eventually turning on him, that didn't work out to well).