The idea of a Werewolf Antipaladin is super cool and kind of an obvious fit, but there's this potential wrench in the gears-
the powers of darkness make an antipaladin a beacon of corruption and disease. An antipaladin does not take any damage or take any penalty from diseases. He can still contract diseases and spread them to others, but he is otherwise immune to their effects.
Plague Bringer makes note of damage and penalties but leaves out any potential benefits a disease might bestow.
The question is, can antipaladins even become lycanthropes.
Lycanthropy is listed as a Curse, but the description of it (and the cure) specifically call it out as a disease. It seems to be both.
So, by my reading there's a few possibilities-
1) Lycanthropy is a Curse, does not count as a Disease and effects the Antipaladin normally (I call this the boring option).
2) Antipaladins can only be carriers of lycanthropy, sort of like a werewolf Typhoid Mary, passing anger and hair growth everywhere they go. The trail of spawned manbeasts would be almost impossible to track back to the anti paladin (great option for a mystery-oriented game plot)
3) Antipaladins can become lycanthropes, but are actually immune to the drawbacks of the disease. They don't go crazy under the full moon, they don't have any of the usual signs, they might not even have a weakness to silver. (Antipaladins make the best lycanthropes. This seems powerful, but rather appropriate.)
Thoughts?
What about Vampirism?
Mummy Rot?
Who said he wasnt a lycanthrope BEFORE he became an anti-paladin?
Who said he wasnt a lycanthrope BEFORE he became an anti-paladin?
Good question.
So, if a lycanthrope becomes an anti paladin, what happens when they hit third level and pick up Plague Bringer?
From the looks of the text he would be a carrier. Able to pass it on to others through bite but unable to tranform himself. He wouldn't get any of the benefits, really. It requires you to succumb to the curse/disease.
Alright, let's explore this idea.
What if they were a lycanthrope first. Would Plague Bringer just suppress the disease?
From the looks of the text he would be a carrier. Able to pass it on to others through bite but unable to tranform himself. He wouldn't get any of the benefits, really. It requires you to succumb to the curse/disease.Alright, let's explore this idea.
What if they were a lycanthrope first. Would Plague Bringer just suppress the disease?
I think lycanthropy is only a disease or curese if you were infected with it. If you inherited it, you get to change into an animal pretty much any time you want to and have no real downside to your condition.
Who said he wasnt a lycanthrope BEFORE he became an anti-paladin?Good question.
So, if a lycanthrope becomes an anti paladin, what happens when they hit third level and pick up Plague Bringer?
Nothing. If he's a natural lycanthrope and not cursed.
If he is cursed...well, I'd guess that anything that happened before he was an AP would still be in effect.
And then there's Natural Lycanthropes
For the first three days after being afflicted, Remove Disease or Heal will cure a lycanthrope. After that, Remove Curse works.
This is from the SRD entry, describing it as both in the same sentence.
Lycanthropy is a curse, and while some unscrupulous types may seek this “gift of the moon,” voluntary contraction of the disease is rare.
This is easy to solve.
Ravenloft.
It cant be dispeled by any means if it was caused by a dreadlord.
Where does it say that Remove Disease / Heal works on Werewolf Lycanthropy in the first three days?For the first three days after being afflicted, Remove Disease or Heal will cure a lycanthrope. After that, Remove Curse works.
This is from the SRD entry, describing it as both in the same sentence.
Lycanthropy is a curse, and while some unscrupulous types may seek this “gift of the moon,” voluntary contraction of the disease is rare.
Spells like Remove Disease and Heal are definitive and safer ways to break the curse, as long as they are cast by a holy person of sufficient skill (typically a cleric of 12th level or higher). However, the window of time in which such mystical treatments function is short— healers have but 3 days after a victim's exposure to the curse to use their restorative magic before it is no longer sufficient….After the 3-day window has passed, a victim's only chance of a cure through magic is a Remove Curse spell, cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher, during the time of the victim's transformation.
I agree that it is a curse. It also seems to be a disease.
THis thread is the only one I've found on the subject and it seems to agree.
The way i look at it is that it is a curse, it can be cast as a curse on someone. But it also can be spread as a disease (bite and scratches), in the case of the antipaladin being hurt by a werewolf, he wouldnt get the curse, because he is immune to the disease that spreads it.
But if he happened to get cursed (spells or similar effects), or was born from lycanthropes, he would be affected by it.
Rules wise:
On the first 3 days, including the initial contact, it is a disease.
After the first 3 days, it becomes the curse.
Rules wise:
On the first 3 days, including the initial contact, it is a disease.
After the first 3 days, it becomes the curse.
I'm afraid not. I do like the fluff that the disease spreads the curse, transforming the infected semi-permanently. But ruleswise, it is not a disease for any purpose other than being removable by CL 12 heal or remove disease in the first three days. Anti-Paladins are not immune, and Paladins are not immune either.
@Majuba
You are right, by RAW its a curse and thats it.
I should have made it clearer though, that was the way i would handle the situation, not RAW.
I like the fluff that it is a magical disease, and i believe thats how it has been portraited on many legends, although im not sure if it was a curse+disease or just a curse in 3.5.
There is at least one natural werewolf with three or more levels of antipaladin in a Paizo adventure path.
Where does it say that Remove Disease / Heal works on Werewolf Lycanthropy in the first three days?For the first three days after being afflicted, Remove Disease or Heal will cure a lycanthrope. After that, Remove Curse works.
This is from the SRD entry, describing it as both in the same sentence.
Lycanthropy is a curse, and while some unscrupulous types may seek this “gift of the moon,” voluntary contraction of the disease is rare.
Spells like Remove Disease and Heal are definitive and safer ways to , as long as they are cast by a holy person of sufficient skill (typically a cleric of 12th level or higher). However, the window of time in which such mystical treatments function is short— healers have but 3 days after a victim's exposure to the curse to use their restorative magic before it is no longer sufficient….After the 3-day window has passed, a victim's only chance of a cure through magic is a Remove Curse spell, cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher, during the time of the victim's transformation.
its a curse that act like a disease, but its a curse nonetheless.
It is basically a matter of the way you want to run this lycanthopic antipaladin NPC. If you want him to have the benefits of lycanthropy but none of the drawbacks, you can make him a hereditary lycanthrope. If you want to rein him in a bit, make him cursed/diseased.
I think there wasn't a lot of standardization on what was a curse vs what was a disease. For instance mummy rot is specifically called a magical disease in several places, but is clearly listed as a curse in its own entry.
There is at least one natural werewolf with three or more levels of antipaladin in a Paizo adventure path.
If they were born a lycanthrope, there was no infection and the curse works at full effect, it cant even be cured.
Thus they could even become paladins, as long as the curse doesnt drive them evil (like it does in ravenloft).I think there wasn't a lot of standardization on what was a curse vs what was a disease. For instance mummy rot is specifically called a magical disease in several places, but is clearly listed as a curse in its own entry.
Mummy rot is specifically listed as "curse and disease".
There is at least one natural werewolf with three or more levels of antipaladin in a Paizo adventure path.If they were born a lycanthrope, there was no infection and the curse works at full effect, it cant even be cured.
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** spoiler omitted **There is at least one natural werewolf with three or more levels of antipaladin in a Paizo adventure path.If they were born a lycanthrope, there was no infection and the curse works at full effect, it cant even be cured.
In fact I think the obeidence feat GIVES you Lycanthropy if you don't have it, and if you do, upgrades it to natural. If you're already naturally a lycnathrohrope, you become a stronger lycan
When I originally thought of this, I had the idea that it might be something gods of evil could use to entice afflicted lycanthropes.
Something along the lines of "you're a monster now anyway, if you just embrace it and serve me, i'll make all of the troublesome things about what you've become go away. All I ask is your devotion."
It seemed like a fantastic story idea, and a way to make an NPC villain more of a challenge.
I agree that it's a Curse. It seems that the consensus is that even though it also behaves like a disease it isn't actually one. (this bothers me, but them's the rules)
On the up side, Paladins are vulnerable to lycanthropy. I don't think that's ever been the case in any other edition of the game, so it never occurred to me before now. That would definitely be an interesting story idea and probably surprise the hell out of the Paladin PC in my group.
As a side note, I was able to build a LG natural Werebear pally quite easily. Why not a CE werewolf pally?
Because of that Chaotic Evil part.
If you could make the werewolf good first, then knock yourself out. Definitely a cool idea, just hard to pull off.
Maybe a Wish cast by someone else, or a Helm of Opposite Alignment?
Because of that Chaotic Evil part.
He probably meant anti-paladin.