Im new to PF and I am joining a newbie group. We are using only the core rules. My DM wants this to be a traditional all-out rules breaking hack and slash power game. I want to play a rogue. I need help coming up with ideas for builds. My goal is to create a character that focuses on stealth, speed, and accuracy for combat. I will also be doing the traditional picking locks and finding traps, although that will be a much smaller part of the game. This is supposed to be a 2-dimensional game with heavy combat focus. Anyway, we are starting with a 25 point build core rules only and no magic. Only good alignments. I am looking for help with building a toon that can hit multiple times per round and abuse the hell out of sneak attack as well as use speed to mitigate enemy attacks. I have a rulebook that I am reading, but there is alot there. I am pretty ignorant about the game so please avoid using abbreviations.
Thanks in advance.
If your new to pf and it will be heavy combat focus I tecomend another class.
However find out some info are many other players playing people you can flank with? If it is only 1 do not make a melee rogue. If at least two go twf.
In general look at scout and bandit archetype. Get the rogue talent that lets you SA even when they have moved in the first round. Get offensive defense.
If ranged get snap shot.
Anyhow rogues are a perfectly playable class but its main schtic has a lot of situational cpmponents and having a full understanding of combat helps a lot.
If you can convince someone there is a tesmwork feT to help you go in the surprise round which woukd give two rounds of easy sa.
That's a lot to ask from the core rogue. In terms of combat viability, the core rogue and monk leave much to be desired. They do not have a full base attack bonus (BAB), have a low hit die (the dice you roll for hit points each level), and cannot wear the heavier armors which leads to a lower armor class (AC). All this adds up to melee characters that suck at melee.
There are arguments that if you play a rogue smart, and use tactics, terrain, and teammates to your advantage, you can do just fine. But this does not leave a lot of room for situations outside of your control.
So what to do? Well, there are a couple of guides for the rogue here on the advice forum (it should be pinned at the top of the forum). But, there are a couple of tricks you ca do.
First, understand the rogue's limitations. I outlined them at the top, but there are a few that are hidden. For example, the rogue's sneak attack is your main source of damage, but that damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (crit). So your best hope is to go for raising your attack bonus so that you are hitting more often, but you do not have a full BAB. The best way to get around this is to choose the rogue talents that give you the weapon focus and weapon finesse feats, and make your dexterity stat (DEX) your main physical stat. This allows you to add your DEX bonus to your attack roll in addition to your strength (STR) bonus. It also raises your AC and your reflex save.
Next, look at feats. In addition to the ones already mentioned, check out any feat that makes it harder to hit you. Dodge, defensive combat training, and mobility are good choices. Also anything that increases your survivability is good. The save feats (Great Fortitude, Iron Will, etc.) and toughness are the go to choices for this. Just remember that you do not get many feats, so you will need to make some choices.
Finally, look into cross-classing. Many rogue builds take levels in other classes to mitigate some of the rogues faults. For a martial focused build, any of the martial classes are great choices. The barbarian can give you a better to hit and increased burst damage. The fighter is obvious, the ranger can give you access to certain feats sooner than normal depending on your style, and the paladin is an absolute beast with smite.
If you want some extra versatility, try the spellcasters. A cleric dip will up your survivability greatly, and the sorcerer can give you alternate methods of damage at range. There is also a lot to be said for the bard, too. Bards can buff not only themselves, but the entire party, making everyone more effective at what they do. They are also the kings of versatility.
As long as this post is, this is only a glimpse of what you can do for a rogue, or any character for that matter.
Mojorat wrote: If your new to pf and it will be heavy combat focus I tecomend another class.
However find out some info are many other players playing people you can flank with? If it is only 1 do not make a melee rogue. If at least two go twf.
In general look at scout and bandit archetype. Get the rogue talent that lets you SA even when they have moved in the first round. Get offensive defense.
If ranged get snap shot.
Anyhow rogues are a perfectly playable class but its main schtic has a lot of situational cpmponents and having a full understanding of combat helps a lot.
If you can convince someone there is a tesmwork feT to help you go in the surprise round which woukd give two rounds of easy sa.
He said "Core Rulebook only".
Mindfever wrote: I want to play a rogue. I need help coming up with ideas for builds. In my experience, the biggest challenge with the rogue is survivability. With relatively low HP, and a fair AC, they aren't great at being in melee combat. TWF is pretty common, but actually getting both attacks only happens maybe 50% of the time, if that. Plus, you get a penalty to hit on top of having a 3/4 BAB.
As such, my recommendation would be to try to get a higher Strength score, use a longspear, invest heavily in Acrobatics, and for feats take Dodge, Mobility, and when you have a BAB +4 (level 6), Spring Attack. If you're willing to multiclass, taking some levels of fighter as isdestroyer mentioned would be very helpful. Taking one or two levels of fighter would give you better BAB, ability to use heavy armor if you choose, more HP, and give you access to more feats.
Good luck.
isdestroyer wrote: Mojorat wrote: If your new to pf and it will be heavy combat focus I tecomend another class.
However find out some info are many other players playing people you can flank with? If it is only 1 do not make a melee rogue. If at least two go twf.
In general look at scout and bandit archetype. Get the rogue talent that lets you SA even when they have moved in the first round. Get offensive defense.
If ranged get snap shot.
Anyhow rogues are a perfectly playable class but its main schtic has a lot of situational cpmponents and having a full understanding of combat helps a lot.
If you can convince someone there is a tesmwork feT to help you go in the surprise round which woukd give two rounds of easy sa.
He said "Core Rulebook only". I just tossed off my advice by memory, though in hindsight i wasnt tracking the location of the suggestions :(
Really, the key thing with the rogue is understand what you can do and do not try to be something the class was not intended to. If you understand the classes limitations you can be fine productive and interact with the game. However, to expand on some of my origonal advice.
Be aware of what other people ar emaking, a TWF rogue with people to flank with who can get into flank and get a full attack is a ginsu machine.
However, doing this and not dieing requires alot of system masterm. Although really by this i mean undrstanding all the options you can take in combat and understanding when to apply them. Know when to back off and when to advanice.
Do not get cought alone or between two monsters.
Since i dont have them memorized :( go through the crb rogue talens and see if any of them give you the option to act int he surprise round. I know there is a Rogue talent that lets you sneak attack people who have already acted in the first round of combgat. But i cant remember if its rb.
One final suggestion is id suggest following 3 kind of archettypes I thik a 2h weapon strength based rogue has the most viability in combat. Consider learning Medium armor proficiency for a breastplate. a Mithril breastplate will save your life.
TWF rogue, If you can full attack and /hit./ you will eviscerate targes but as i said earlier geting cought alone or sandwitched between bad guys is a frequent issue.
Archer rogue. If you have surprise and initiative, this is the best rogue to make the most of sneak attack. they can full attck and do not need to move. Precise shot/point blank shot are priorities then rapid shot. Do not use deadly aim in general when you have a hcance to sneak attack. Learn the stealth rules and how sniping works.
Of the above, the archer requires the least understanding of the combat system but after the first round of combat is reliant on snipe to SNA. In actual combat the th rogue is easiest to use he will hit wont have any wierd penalties other than PA (which can be turne dn and off selecively) and does not require SA to do damage.
TWF offers the most OMFG Ginsuz.. but you will e prone to sudden infant rogue deeath syndrome if you do no know when its safe to do your schtick.
Be a ranger. You'll have the skills to be stealthy, the BAB to be accurate, and will be able to cast longstrider to be speedy. If you must have trapfinding, take one or at most two levels of rogue, but you can get disable device with a trait, if your GM allows traits (they're part of the core rules, but not in the CRB) and any non-magical trap can be disabled by any character with enough disable device training.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
@Mindfever
Sorry, unless your GM is going to heavily customize the campaign around your rogue a straight class rogue is going to have a very difficult time keeping up. Especially given the 'combat focus' you are mentioning. As well being limited to Core rules. With all the splatbooks/expansions, a rogue is *still* hard-pressed to keep up with other melee classes. With one or two highly optimized exceptions...and even they don't come into their own until later levels.
Many folks with visions of the Grey Mouser, any anime, or say a rogue from a MMO are disappointed when they roll up one in Pathfinder.
If it was a roleplay heavy campaign...and if the GM allows you a lot of custom/house rules, then yes a rogue will work.
Otherwise...I'd probably take two levels of rogue and then multi-class into fighter, barbarian or ranger.
Mindfever wrote:
My goal is to create a character that focuses on stealth, speed, and accuracy for combat. I will also be doing the traditional picking locks and finding traps, although that will be a much smaller part of the game. This is supposed to be a 2-dimensional game with heavy combat focus. Anyway, we are starting with a 25 point build core rules only and no magic.
Stealth: any class can do this as well or better. Just take a trait that makes it a class skill if it isn't a class skill. Casters are best at this.
Speed: Not dependent on class. Unless you are talking about movement speed, then monk, barbarian, and all casters do it better.
Accuracy: Every full BAB class does this better. Every caster does this better.
Picking locks: any class can do this.
Trapfinding: You mentioned it would be a much smaller part of the game. Anyone can find a trap, and anyone can disable a mundane trap. Only the rogue can disable magical traps...but if that's rare...quite frankly it is usually better to spot the trap and avoid it or have something else trigger it.
If you are really curious on how damage by classes breaks down...check out the DPR-Olympics thread. here
Oh by 'no magic' I'm assuming you mean start with no magical gear...which is normal. Does the GM mean something else like no magic items ever? Or no casters?
Good luck.
No magic means no arcane casters and no spells. Clerics and Paladins will have limited access to Divine spells, but mainly for healing. We will be questing for magic gear.
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote: Be a ranger. You'll have the skills to be stealthy, the BAB to be accurate, and will be able to cast longstrider to be speedy. If you must have trapfinding, take one or at most two levels of rogue, but you can get disable device with a trait, if your GM allows traits (they're part of the core rules, but not in the CRB) and any non-magical trap can be disabled by any character with enough disable device training. This is your strongest advice in order to achieve the effect you want at the table. I cannot urge you enough to consider this seriously.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ErrantPursuit wrote: Paladin of Baha-who? wrote: Be a ranger. You'll have the skills to be stealthy, the BAB to be accurate, and will be able to cast longstrider to be speedy. If you must have trapfinding, take one or at most two levels of rogue, but you can get disable device with a trait, if your GM allows traits (they're part of the core rules, but not in the CRB) and any non-magical trap can be disabled by any character with enough disable device training. This is your strongest advice in order to achieve the effect you want at the table. I cannot urge you enough to consider this seriously. Given the "no arcane magic" clause, then yes ranger seems best bet. FYI evil divines as bosses seriously suck :)
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