He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
It's in this very common situation that the rogue shine the most; after 216 rounds of fight, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
Marvelously put.
He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
That is in this kind of common situation that the rogue shine; at the 216th round, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
For this point, his old point still stands.
They can all (monk/fighter/rogue) run out of HP.
If you are talking about attrition gorilla warfare tactics, then yeah the rounds/day classes are going to run out of steam while both conservative fullcasters and monk/fighter/rogue classes will have more steam.
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He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
That is in this kind of common situation that the rogue shine; at the 216th round, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
For this point, his old point still stands.
They can all (monk/fighter/rogue) run out of HP.
If you are talking about attrition gorilla warfare tactics, then yeah the rounds/day classes are going to run out of steam while both conservative fullcasters and monk/fighter/rogue classes will have more steam.
egggggg-seeept the Bard has intrinsic healing magic that scales with caster level...and as a spontaneous caster gets a bunch of them.
In a war of attrition, he'll definitely outlast the fighter and the rogue.==Aelryinth
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He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
It's in this very common situation that the rogue shine the most; after 216 rounds of fight, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
Who the HELL fights for 216 rounds of combat?
The rogue is a better class for a situation that, in the thousands of hours of RPG'ing I have played in the last 30 years, I have never, EVER once encountered. Good to know.
216 consecutive rounds of combat or even 216 rounds of combat in a single rest period would be an incredibly unusual situation. Incredibly unusual situations are not used as the standard in any intellectually honest debate.
How would you equip this character at, say, level 10?** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **...Ahhh Ahhh!
Not how I would build a rogue.
** spoiler omitted **
Now I'm not going to defend this particular build until I play with it more. But dear lord, I just couldn't stay silent with the rogue getting knee-capped liked that.
Feel free to pick apart this build and call it trash and me a troll. My actual analyses will come later. If you want to go ahead and do your own. Fine. (This last part is not directed at you specifically)
Rough estimate:
+3 Darkleaf Studded Leather Armor (2 ac, +8 max dex)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4
Eyes of the Eagle
Boots of Elvenkind(+5 acrobatics)
Gloves of Larceny(+5 sleight of hand)
Hat of Disguise
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1, Ring of Sustenance
Cloak of Resistance +3
Handy HaverSack
Silk Rope 50 ft
Grappling hook
Everburning torch
Climber’s kit
Masterwork Thieves tools
Melee Weapon: +1 rapier
Range Weapon: +1 shortbow
100 arrows
3.4K gold left over for wands and potions. This will depend more on your party make-up.
Next items to get: Sniper goggles and Bracers of Falcon’s Aim.
Not having sniper goggles will hurt when the need comes up. Chances are in these situations you will either lose time getting into position or borrow a wand or staff from one of your caster buddies.
He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
It's in this very common situation that the rogue shine the most; after 216 rounds of fight, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
Who the HELL fights for 216 rounds of combat?
The rogue is a better class for a situation that, in the thousands of hours of RPG'ing I have played in the last 30 years, I have never, EVER once encountered. Good to know.
216 consecutive rounds of combat or even 216 rounds of combat in a single rest period would be an incredibly unusual situation. Incredibly unusual situations are not used as the standard in any intellectually honest debate.
Um, you couldn't feel the incredible irony/sarcasm/humor dripping off the original statement there, Born?
==Aelryinth
If you are talking about attrition gorilla warfare tacticsIn an attrition war, the casters could use some lame wands instead of actual spells. But the BBEG want to kill the party, not to be some minor inconvenience. So no, I'm not talking about attrition war, but about a big fight: the BBEG takes all his minions, lieutenant, etc with him and they ambush the PCs, in the end of the day only one group survives.
Those fights tend to be quicker than 216 rounds. Maybe 10-20 at most.
He made a point that wasn't correct.As well as your assumption that you can use wands "out of combat".
The BBEG isn't stupid, so he doesn't send his minion one after another: every opponent is attacking the party at the same time in some giant gangbang, if the PCs survive they're done for the month. It is how it works in actual game, discussing this is outside the scope of this thread.
It's in this very common situation that the rogue shine the most; after 216 rounds of fight, the bard has no more spell nor representations while the rogue continue to flank for a lot damages.
Who the HELL fights for 216 rounds of combat?
The rogue is a better class for a situation that, in the thousands of hours of RPG'ing I have played in the last 30 years, I have never, EVER once encountered. Good to know.
216 consecutive rounds of combat or even 216 rounds of combat in a single rest period would be an incredibly unusual situation. Incredibly unusual situations are not used as the standard in any intellectually honest debate.
Um, you couldn't feel the incredible irony/sarcasm/humor dripping off the original statement there, Born?
Disclaimer: If he's actually serious, I'm laughing with you.
==Aelryinth
Those fights tend to be quicker than 216 rounds. Maybe 10-20 at most.If you are talking about attrition gorilla warfare tacticsIn an attrition war, the casters could use some lame wands instead of actual spells. But the BBEG want to kill the party, not to be some minor inconvenience. So no, I'm not talking about attrition war, but about a big fight: the BBEG takes all his minions, lieutenant, etc with him and they ambush the PCs, in the end of the day only one group survives.
As long as the CR vs APL rule are being followed its more like 3-5 instead of the usual 1-3. One giant battle type things actually favor the casters even more as the powerful control or aoe spells don't have much waste involved (like using a fireball to fry 2 mooks). The big fight actually encourages the 15 minute adventuring day and makes casters stronger.
What favors rogues and other mundanes is lots of small encounters where its not efficient to use up limited resources. A party with a fighter and rogue can go all day assuming they have a healing stick or two. Since they are gaining wealth through the encounters faster than they use up healing resources, it can just keep going assuming a magic mart or occasional healing item drops are available.
Those fights tend to be quicker than 216 rounds. Maybe 10-20 at most.If you are talking about attrition gorilla warfare tacticsIn an attrition war, the casters could use some lame wands instead of actual spells. But the BBEG want to kill the party, not to be some minor inconvenience. So no, I'm not talking about attrition war, but about a big fight: the BBEG takes all his minions, lieutenant, etc with him and they ambush the PCs, in the end of the day only one group survives.
It takes 10-20 rounds to kill the whole army of the BBEG?
Then what is the point of being able to sneak attack during 14,400 rounds per day? Or of having more than 20 round of bardic performance?
Two or more armies :P
Technically, that works. But healing IS a limited resource, unfortunately. And if the casters are not using up their resources, the amount of healing getting done starts ballooning rapidly, since the casters aren't eliminating enemies, controlling the battlefield, buffing against attacks, etc and so forth.
In short, no casting hastens attrition even faster, because now more enemies get to do more damage and status infliction for longer periods of time, which requires more healing resources to set right.
==Aelryinth
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Technically, that works. But healing IS a limited resource, unfortunately. And if the casters are not using up their resources, the amount of healing getting done starts ballooning rapidly, since the casters aren't eliminating enemies, controlling the battlefield, buffing against attacks, etc and so forth.
In short, no casting hastens attrition even faster, because now more enemies get to do more damage and status infliction for longer periods of time, which requires more healing resources to set right.
"assuming they have a healing stick or two"
Idk about you, but priority 1 for my party is to have non-spell dependent out of combat healing once we have a decent amount of money.
A CLW wand heals about 275 HP or 0.37 HP per gold.
As long as the CR vs APL rule are being followed its more like 3-5 instead of the usual 1-3. One giant battle type things actually favor the casters even more as the powerful control or aoe spells don't have much waste involved (like using a fireball to fry 2 mooks). The big fight actually encourages the 15 minute adventuring day and makes casters stronger.If the BBEG got 50 minion under his command, I don't think his optimal strategy is to divide them into 50 group of 1 minion "because otherwise, it will favor the casters". Actually, I don't think his optimal strategy involve "wait while the PCs use wands of cure light wound on the rogue".
What are you arguing about?
IF that was sarcasm (which I highly doubt considering his ongoing arguments along the same vein) I humbly apologize.
This thread causes me physical pain.
This thread causes me physical pain.
It's a bit of a boondoggle, eh?
What are you arguing about?I don't think your question is in the scope of this thread; I will make a detailed thread at some point in the future explaining that a "very taxing adventuring day" shouldn't be "50 fight against 1 opponent, with 15 minutes to heal after each fight".
Jesus Christ I just got punk'd.
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Rough estimate:
+3 Darkleaf Studded Leather Armor (2 ac, +8 max dex)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4
Eyes of the Eagle
Boots of Elvenkind(+5 acrobatics)
Gloves of Larceny(+5 sleight of hand)
Hat of Disguise
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1, Ring of Sustenance
Cloak of Resistance +3
Handy HaverSack
Silk Rope 50 ft
Grappling hook
Everburning torch
Climber’s kit
Masterwork Thieves tools
Melee Weapon: +1 rapier
Range Weapon: +1 shortbow
100 arrows
3.4K gold left over for wands and potions. This will depend more on your party make-up.Next items to get: Sniper goggles and Bracers of Falcon’s Aim.
Not having sniper goggles will hurt when the need comes up. Chances are in these situations you will either lose time getting into position or borrow a wand or staff from one of your caster buddies.
If you're human/halfling/elf bring potions of alter self (bugbear, wererat or werewolf form gives you both Darkvision and Scent). Then use your Sniper Goggles at night / in darkness.
Via Sniper Goggles I would also buy two ricochet hammers with TWF and ITWF... but this is another build altogether... It's expensive but a Wand of Greater Invisibility would work well with the ricochet hammers build...
NOTE: dual ricochet hammers build is automatically switch-hitting as you can use them both in melee and at range; note they are also light weapons for the purposes of Weapon Finesse.
So:
Weapon Finesse
TWF
ITWF
anything else is gravy on top....
As long as the CR vs APL rule are being followed its more like 3-5 instead of the usual 1-3. One giant battle type things actually favor the casters even more as the powerful control or aoe spells don't have much waste involved (like using a fireball to fry 2 mooks). The big fight actually encourages the 15 minute adventuring day and makes casters stronger.If the BBEG got 50 minion under his command, I don't think his optimal strategy is to divide them into 50 group of 1 minion "because otherwise, it will favor the casters". Actually, I don't think his optimal strategy involve "wait while the PCs use wands of cure light wound on the rogue".
Well the problem of mass assaults against PCs that include casters is the same as mass assaults across no mans land. You don't send human wave assaults against ranged in artillery. You probe, feint, attrition, outflank, then you send in the knockout blow.
Also with how the CR system works, you can't really throw all resources at the PC without breaking the system and creating an unfun unwinnable situation. If the BBEG has the resources of a nation behind him throwing all of that in one combat might work, but its against the guidelines for balanced pathfinder. Sending in multiple waves balances around CR=APL+ 0 to 4 is fine however (you still are supposed to be allowing small breaks because otherwise its not a separate encounter, its all the same and that blows your CR budget). Even then you have to keep in mind that the game is balanced around only so many encounters per day.
To illustrate the problem with 50 v 1 or 1v1 50 times: An encounter with 50 minions requires that the minions each be much lower than the party in terms of CR. This means they are dead to low level control spells like cloud kill and die to aeo effects instead of just being injured. 1v1 50 times means the CR budget allows the encounters to have solos that are as high as 4 CR above APL, which means you actually use up more resources per body, thogh a solo vs the party means they can be destroyed by number of actions per round. Due to action economy if you have 50 mooks to use and follow the CR rules you want between 2-8 per fight, average 5ish (lets you have minions and a leader/brute type). This way you don't lose the action economy fight and each threat is actually threatening. 10 encounters is about the limit for an adventuring day too. Bam, optimal use of CR budget AND it follows the guidelines for encounter building. It also makes good use of the strengths of classes with limited per day resources and ones that are only limited by wealth=healing (a problem that solves itself due to WBL appropriate drops and access to magic marts).
If you are just trying to kill the party however, sure, go head and just use the rocks fall everybody dies method, if you are ignoring the guidelines you might as well.
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Honestly, I like how people are all "Well what happens when the Pally runs out of Lay on Hands/Channel? See! The fighter is better in the long haul!" but they seem to not take into account that:
1) If the Pally is using lay on hands that much, the Fighter is already dead. Pally and Fighter's tend to have comparable ACs and the Pally has MUCH better saves (less damage from spells). So... what about that fighter?
2) The fighter cannot outlast a barbarian. Even without rage, the Barb tends to have DR x/-, higher HD, AND higher Con.
The same thing goes for the Rogue. The rogue is actually not that powerful even if everyone else uses thier stuff up....
Kitty, you might want to stop using reason and logic in threads like this. It leads to all sorts of arguments and calls on discrimination against fighters and rogues.
==Aelryinth
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Kitty, you might want to stop using reason and logic in threads like this. It leads to all sorts of arguments and calls on discrimination against fighters and rogues.
==Aelryinth
haha true true. I guess Ill just go and enjoy my Alchemist and Sin mage :P
Design Manager
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What are you arguing about?I don't think your question is in the scope of this thread; I will make a detailed thread at some point in the future explaining that a "very taxing adventuring day" shouldn't be "50 fight against 1 opponent, with 15 minutes to heal after each fight".
Hah! I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read that. I wish I could favorite it more than once.
Ok so skills I see the rogue having: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Bluff,Use Magic Device, Perception, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Linguistics(max -1), Swim(1 rank)
MAX rank except where noted.
A bard can get away without having UMD and replacing climb with fly (there are some other things lost doing this, but I'm focusing on mid-high level play).
Relevant versatile performances Act(Bluff, Disguise), Dance(Acrobatics, Fly), Oratory(Diplomacy,*Sense Motive)
Sense motive and perform skills are not relevant for parity so the net gain here is 2 skill points per level
So totaled up at the moment:
Rogue 12 - 1 (UMD not needed for bard)
Bard 10 + 2 (versatile performance)
That is assume the bard puts no points into knowledge skills, taking that into account we can get the bard list of skills by 10
Dance, Act, Oratory, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Linguistics(max -1), Swim(1 rank), Knowledge skills. NOTE: No magic item crafting because no spellcraft
OK so we covered relevant skills, now for the a actual build. We are going to need decent cha and skill focus(act), skill focus(dance) at 16, skill focus(stealth)
focused study bard 10str 17dex 14con 14int 8wis 14cha
Traits: Trapfinding, Resilient(+1 fort saves)
For combat let's go with archery, I think that will net the most damage.
1. Point Blank Shot,Skill focus(act)
2. Versatile Performance (Act)
3. Precise Shot
4.
5. Arcane Strike
6. Versatile Performance (Dance)
7. Rapid Shot
8.,Skill focus(stealth)
9. Manyshot
10.Versatile Performance (Oratory)
11. Deadly Aim
12.
13. Great Fortitude
14.
15. Improved Precise Shot
16. Skill focus(dance)
17. Improved Great Fortitude
18.
19. Far-shot
20.
Gear considerations: Bard needs trapspringer's fingers and a headband of charisma, so we'll still assume a +1 short bow.
Rogue to-hit at level 10 +15 (7 BAB + 7 dex + 1 enh)
Bard to-hit at level 10 (7 BAB - 2 deadly aim + 2 inspire courage + 2 Good Hope + 6 dex + 1 enh -2 rapid fire) = 14
Rogue damage: 6d6+1 + 5 bleed damage
Bard damage: 1d6+12 (2 good hope + 1 enh + 4 deadly aim + 3 arcane strike + 2 inspire courage)
Note on heroism: This is a nice dungeon buff and overlaps with good hope. A bard using good hope is saving the wizard 3rd level slots or saving the party from buying a 6K gold wand of bardic heroism (which last 40 minutes per use).
Optimal situation for both: Rogue flanking, both have haste, Someone threw heroism on the rogue, The bard is already buffed and singing
Rogue: +20/20/15 for an average of 22 damage per hit + 5 bleed
Bard: +15/15/15/10 (+1 arrow from manyshot) for an average of 15.5 damage
Comparative numbers (relative to each other "DPR", not actual DPR):
Rogue: 65.5
Bard: 54.25
Crits were not accounted for, this would push the bard up
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 15/15/15/10/15/15/15/10
Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 121.7
NOTE on Comparative numbers: That is just who is doing more damage per combat. It doesn't estimate the actual damage gap.
Once you factor in the secondary damage from inspire courage and good hope the bard is doing more damage. Something to keep in mind though is that this bard cannot melee while the rogue can melee with some limited range. Melee bard would not even come close to keeping out to the rogue in damage, unless you change around the bard's stats which would cause other problems.
So what remains is to compare the value between
Spells, Bardic Knowledge, Other performances, Jack of all trades(10lvl,19lvl*), 2 higher on will saves(yep check that out. only 2), and lore master with Skill mastery, bleed attack, fast stealth, uncanny dodge, combat reflexes, improved uncanny dodge, quick draw, Situational using of combat expertise, Opportunist, Crippling Strike, Hard minded, Defensive roll, improved evasion, master strike*.
Which more on that later.
*It's important to compare super high level abilities, but also to keep in mind that you won't be using these for 99% of game play.
Why would the bard need max-1 ranks in linguistics? And why doesn't the rogue need ranks in Fly when he starts entering the mid levels?
Why would the bard need max-1 ranks in linguistics?
He's trying to do everything the rogue does.
0:Prestidigitation,Dancing Lights,Detect Magic,Mending | 1:Cure Light Wounds,Silent Image
0:Mage Hand | 1:Grease
0: Ghost Sound | 1:Charm Person
2:Invisibility, Glitterdust
2:Silence
2:Mirror-Image
1:Disguise Self | 3:Major Image,Good Hope
3:Glibness
3:Sculpt Sound
2:Cure Moderate Wounds | 4:Greater Invisibility, Dominate Person
1:Feather Fall | 4:Dimension Door
4:Modify Memory
3:Phantom Steed | 5:Shadow Walk, Song of Discord
2:Shatter | 5:Persistent Image
5:Greater Dispel Magic
4:Freedom of Movement | 6:Geas/Quest, Animate Objects
3:Cure Serious Wounds | 6: Veil
6:Greater Shout
5:Mirage Arcana
4:Cure Critical Wounds | 6:Sympathetic Vibration
I'd also think grabbing tongues is not making it into the list, also forgery and deciphering documents.
why doesn't the rogue need ranks in Fly when he starts entering the mid levels?
Well they can't have ranks in fly. So there is that.
The other particulars still need to be tested in high level play.
I also didn't get into the practical differences between climb and fly. The assumption that we can just swap it is in favor of the bard. Same with UMD.
Ok so skills I see the rogue having: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Bluff,Use Magic Device, Perception, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Linguistics(max -1), Swim(1 rank)
MAX rank except where noted.
A bard can get away without having UMD and replacing climb with fly (there are some other things lost doing this, but I'm focusing on mid-high level play).
Relevant versatile performances Act(Bluff, Disguise), Dance(Acrobatics, Fly), Oratory(Diplomacy,*Sense Motive)
Sense motive and perform skills are not relevant for parity so the net gain here is 2 skill points per level
So totaled up at the moment:
Rogue 12 - 1 (UMD not needed for bard)
Bard 10 + 2 (versatile performance)
That is assume the bard puts no points into knowledge skills, taking that into account we can get the bard list of skills by 10Dance, Act, Oratory, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Linguistics(max -1), Swim(1 rank), Knowledge skills. NOTE: No magic item crafting because no spellcraft
OK so we covered relevant skills, now for the a actual build. We are going to need decent cha and skill focus(act), skill focus(dance) at 16, skill focus(stealth)
focused study bard 10str 17dex 14con 14int 8wis 14cha
Traits: Trapfinding, Resilient(+1 fort saves)
For combat let's go with archery, I think that will net the most damage.1. Point Blank Shot,Skill focus(act)
2. Versatile Performance (Act)
3. Precise Shot
4.
5. Arcane Strike
6. Versatile Performance (Dance)
7. Rapid Shot
8.,Skill focus(stealth)
9. Manyshot
10.Versatile Performance (Oratory)
11. Deadly Aim
12.
13. Great Fortitude
14.
15. Improved Precise Shot
16. Skill focus(dance)
17. Improved Great Fortitude
18.
19. Far-shot
20.Gear considerations: Bard needs trapspringer's fingers and a headband of charisma, so we'll still assume a +1 short bow.
Rogue to-hit at level 10 +15 (7 BAB + 7 dex + 1 enh)
Bard to-hit at level 10 (7 BAB - 2 deadly aim + 2 inspire courage + 2...
If the Bard takes Craft Wonderous Item (Spellcraft shouldn't be forgotten), he gets the gear 1/2 off. So instead of precise shot, he should take that.
With that extra gear, he can still get a +2 Bow.
If the Bard takes Craft Wonderous Item, he gets the gear 1/2 off. So instead of precise shot, he should take that.
With that extra gear, he can still get a +2 Bow.
1. can't afford getting spellcraft
2. Needs precise shot or takes a -4 penalty on basically all attacks.
why doesn't the rogue need ranks in Fly when he starts entering the mid levels?Well they can't have ranks in fly. So there is that.
The other particulars still need to be tested in high level play.
I also didn't get into the practical differences between climb and fly. The assumption that we can just swap it is in favor of the bard. Same with UMD.
The rogue can place ranks in fly if he has a reliable way of flying every day - such as winged boots.
I'd also make note that you can easily fit Tongues into your spell list if you use the bard's favored class bonus to pick up additional spells. FCBs is very much a factor if you want to compare classes.
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Discuss class is pointless. The power of a class is based on:
1 your ability to build the char.
2 type of challenges you will fins.
3 how your group play.
4 how tour GM play.
why doesn't the rogue need ranks in Fly when he starts entering the mid levels?Well they can't have ranks in fly. So there is that.
The other particulars still need to be tested in high level play.
I also didn't get into the practical differences between climb and fly. The assumption that we can just swap it is in favor of the bard. Same with UMD.
1.The rogue can place ranks in fly if he has a reliable way of flying every day - such as winged boots.
2.I'd also make note that you can easily fit Tongues into your spell list if you use the bard's favored class bonus to pick up additional spells. FCBs is very much a factor if you want to compare classes.
1. No that doesn't let you put ranks in fly.
2. Bard's FCB is going into skills. It needs to do that for parity. You can sack a skill or all the skill points in knowledge skills. Furthermore tongues only replaces ONE function of linguistics.
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1. No that doesn't let you put ranks in fly.
Yes, it does.
2. Bard's FCB is going into skills. It needs to do that for parity. You can sack a skill or all the skill points in knowledge skills. Furthermore tongues only replaces ONE function of linguistics.
Why are you intentionally making a suboptimal bard? Would you not agree that 16 spells known is more valuable than 16 skill ranks for a spontaneous caster?
Depend of how much these spells you can cast
Something I'm going to point out is "Build Temptations".
When trying to shoehorn the rogue into a different class, you are tempted to do things that that class can do. This limits the ability to parity
For example, people have expressed desires to craft items and use FCB for spells.
That's -2 per level for parity, assuming you keep knowledge ranks, you know have to do 2 less skills than the rogue.
Maybe you want less int? Maybe only 10. Now you are at -4 per level. That's four skills or 1/3 of the rogues skills. You are no longer eclipsing the rogue, you are playing a separate character that does it's own things. This leaves room for the rogue.
True eclipsing of the rogue requires ignoring some of the things you may want from this other class. This makes the practice of eclipsing rogue more difficult.
This point has nothing to do with theoretical comparisons.
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Why are you intentionally making a suboptimal bard? Would you not agree that 16 spells known is more valuable than 16 skill ranks for a spontaneous caster?
I disagree. I built my 13th level bard that way originally and it was subpar. Why? because having 16 extra spells known doesn't help the fact that you can only cast one spell per round. My DM gave me permission to retool and I made him with 13 additional skill points. It was better on every front. Having all these extra spells meant more choice yes, but also meant it slowed down play as the decisional process is longer. A shorter spell list composed of more combat optimal spells is better as you always end up casting something effective. For the least combat effective options, my character carries dozens of 0 and 1st level scrolls, plus about 10 2nd level scrolls. That ensures he can get those little situational ones at no cost to his skill points.
1. No that doesn't let you put ranks in fly.Yes, it does.
2. Bard's FCB is going into skills. It needs to do that for parity. You can sack a skill or all the skill points in knowledge skills. Furthermore tongues only replaces ONE function of linguistics.Why are you intentionally making a suboptimal bard? Would you not agree that 16 spells known is more valuable than 16 skill ranks for a spontaneous caster?
1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic items do not get around that.
2. I'm trying to build Bard the rogue. The bard is short a skill point if it doesn't put FCB into skills.
For the least combat effective options, my character carries dozens of 0 and 1st level scrolls, plus about 10 2nd level scrolls. That ensures he can get those little situational ones at no cost to his skill points.
This is also a good point.
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1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic item do not get around that.
Winged Boots effectively let you cast Fly three times a day. You know, the spell. If a 5th level wizard can take ranks in the Fly skill because he can cast Fly once a day then surely a rogue who can cast it three times a day is equally qualified.
Why? because having 16 extra spells known doesn't help the fact that you can only cast one spell per round. My DM gave me permission to retool and I made him with 13 additional skill points.
Most skills are typically not used in combat. You have plenty of skill points for the ones that do. Instead of picking up your 11th skill rank you use the extra spells to pick up utility spells generally not used in combat, but rather for other things. For instance, you can put ranks in Climb - or learn Alter Self to give yourself a climb speed, and 15 other spells to boot.
Instead of Handle Animal you learn Charm Animal, etc.
Scrolls are a valid alternative for 1st and 2nd level spells, though they quickly become cost intensive for the higher levels.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic items do not get around that.
Oh if only I had a boot or cape or armor that let me reliably fly every day...
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1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic item do not get around that.Winged Boots let you cast Fly three times a day. You know, the spell. If a 5th level wizard can take ranks in the Fly skill because he can cast Fly once a day then surely a rogue who can cast it three times a day is equally qualified.
You'll have to find an FAQ or dev comment specifically talking about this.
Magic items normally do not let you qualify for build options.
This wouldn't fly at the table I play at or at a table that I would run.
Casters have fly as a class skill. That gets around the restriction.
Oh if only I had a boot or cape or armor that let me reliably fly every day...1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic items do not get around that.
Which is neither a spell nor a special ability.