Taking this seriously:
You can't shrink a wall of stone any more than you could, e.g., shrink an actual wall. It isn't a whole object; it's attached to the surrounding terrain. For similar reasons, you couldn't drop it into the pit because it's attached.
You could do this with a wall of iron--but then, you can make it smaller anyway, so there's no need to shrink it. In that case, there's no reason to believe that the effect would be any greater than tipping the wall over on the enemies under normal conditions, so any damage should top out at 10d6 (Reflex negates). Probably less, since there's no high-speed impact involved.
This assumes that the usual behavior for being ejected from extradimensional spaces into occupied space is not observed. The rules do not specify what happens if the pit is occluded when the spell ends, so the GM is free to decide the result. A caster is better off making the wall just an inch or two smaller than the pit and tipping the wall into the pit rather than covering the pit and waiting for the pit to expire. Then you get the full 10d6 (Reflex negates). Note that shrinking the wall via shrink item won't help you; the DC to push the wall is fixed at 40 regardless of weight.
Q: How can the enemy possibly make a Reflex save to negate the falling wall when there's nowhere to go?
A: With aplomb.
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I understand many of you are worried about the combo being unbalanced or broken, but that's my call in my games just as it is yours in your games. I simply want to understand if it is a lawful use of the rules. I'll decide after that if I will still allow it or not. When I get to that step I would certainly value opinions, but I want to understand the RAW for myself first
@137ben I've changed my stance since I commented that
RAW is silent on the topic of such interactions. It was not considered. There are no rules for "and then you are crushed by the closure of an extradimensional space".
I know it doesn't address it directly, but it seems to leave plenty of room to allow it and in no way states you shouldnt. Using an argument such as "it just can't work that way or its broken" does not beat the logical arguments that were given in favor of the opposite opinion
Based off the evidence and reasoning for both sides of the debate, I'd certainly allow this unless a dev stepped in and instructed otherwise. I'd congradulate my PC's for a good idea and find a way to challenge them better
@lastblacknight. If I'm correct, Youtube can unshrink an item with a command word. Speaking a single word is a free action. So I was thinking that you can cast Create pit with your single action, then drop your shrink item with your move action, And Samy the command word for free.
But well, it is the first Time I play a caster And I'm not sure of this combo ^^.
I guess I Will let it go ^^
And thx for the BS explanation!
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The pit does not need to be dismissed, it will run out on its own soon enough. Assuming the trapped victims have no way to escape, they should suffer falling damage at the least, but to have them appear on top? That is BS...how's it BS? Anytime anyone gets poofed into an occupied space they instead take damage and appear in the nearest available space. I guess you could argue that the spell isn't teleporting them to an occupied space, but its experation forces them into one. I'm pretty sure its handled the same wayOk, I can concede that they can get shunted, but not without paying the price. The minimum penalty should be falling damage for the distance traveled.
As an aside, I like to create pits and then cast cloudkill into them. :)
1) Why falling damage? The pit spell say "When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round."
The creatures in the pit aren't moving fast enough to suffer falling damage for impacting on the stone wall.2) Wall of stone say "it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone", so it can't be dropped on anyone. You can cast it so that it cover the pit, but the pit spell say: "In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped,", so you need to cover a 30*30' area or the creatures in the pit would be able to escape through the sloped edges when the floor of the pit has raised enough. Note that you can't merge the wall with the extraplanar border of the pit, so you can't merge it with any part of the 30'*30' opening.
As a Wall of stone area is "to one 5-ft. square/level" to cover an 30'*30' pit and solidy merge with the adjoining surface you need a minimum area of 35*30 feet. 7*6= 42 a forty two level caster ....
Actually a 84th level caster as "It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell's area by half."
Note that it will be arched. So again it can't crush anything.
A wall of iron will avoid most of those problem, but to block the pit you need a cap larger than the sloped part, so at least 35'*35*. A 49th level caster. Halving the wall of iron thickness to double the surface you only need a 25th level caster.
Note that Wall of Iron has the rules for damaging the creatures beneath it:
- reflex save for no damage.
- 10d6 large or smaller creatures that fail the save
- no damage for huge or larger.
3) Last: "Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness."
At most a section of the wall has 75 hp if you have a level 20 caster. Start bashing it when the slowly raising floor of the pit get you in range. Any good strength based meele combatant will be able to do that level of damage in one round if we are speaking of a appropriate level fight.
The DC to break the wall at most is 30. Again, feasible.
I understand many of you are worried about the combo being unbalanced or broken, but that's my call in my games just as it is yours in your games. I simply want to understand if it is a lawful use of the rules. I'll decide after that if I will still allow it or not. When I get to that step I would certainly value opinions, but I want to understand the RAW for myself first
See above. If you read all the rules, it is hardly a insta kill.
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Again Wall of Iron.
You can cast it flat on the sloped part, so it would automatically slide into the pit. But it will not automatically fall flat, it will almost certainly fall a with some vertical angle, so even if you make a 10'*10' wall of iron the creature into the pit would still have space to make a reflex save and would only take 10d8 points of damage.
Ha ha, it's "only" 10d8.
Show me where it "proves" your point...in the rules...There is no line that is in print saying "That theory that Aspasia de Malagant comes up with is wrong" in the rules.
cunningly using spells together can result in greater effeWhich is what shouldn't be allowed because it is gaining more power out of a lower level spell.
Type what you like James and run it how you wish, but by the rules the attachment of stone to the other surface can be precarious indeed.
Which means you can set up entrapment, splatting, sealing off or prepping a means to quickly block a corridor, or other uses a player with intelligence and tactics can think up. If you try to block them in, they get their reflex save; falling weight still does damage according to the standard rules.
@Diego I nerver said that I would cast a wall of stone. I said that I would unshrink a “shrinked wall of stone”. My wizard is only 7th level of character. I can’t cast wall of stone. But I have enough money to buy a wall of stone built by hard workers and shrink it for seven days. So the wall can have the size of 50’ by 50’ and be as thicker ast I want, it is not a problem. I can even made it in iron if I wish to (If I have enough money of course).
But thx for your answer !
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@Diego I nerver said that I would cast a wall of stone. I said that I would unshrink a “shrinked wall of stone”.
So the "wall of stone" spell has nothing to do with the question. That change the whole argument.
Shrink item say: "Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster." and "Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level"
If you are a 7th level wizard you can shrink a 14 cubic feet item. That is a 1'*7'*2' wall. it will not cover a 10'*10' hole.
As a minimum you need a 11'*11'*1' slab of reinforced concrete or hard rock. Minimum caster level of the shrink item spell 61.
Unless your slab of concrete/iron is so thin that it will be very easy to break or even to move you would be unable to shrink it.
A 20th level caster will be capable to shrink a 11'*11' slab with a thickness of less than 2 inches. DC 29 to break trough and 60 hp if made of iron.
The whole slab, if made of iron, would weight about 11.000 lbs. A character with 29 strength can push along the ground 7.000 lbs and he can lift 2.8000 lbs without a check.
As the trapped creature will not need to move the whole slab but only to keep a corner raised so he can escape I would say that:
- if he can make a appropriate strength check (lower than the one needed to break through and dependent on the slab weight), he would be able to avoid any damage and get away using his standard action and with the penalties of being overloaded ["A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action)."]
- if he can't make the check or he fail it he will suffer the crushing damage of a wall of iron (10d6) and could be potentially pinned under it, with the need to make CMB checks or escape artist checks to free himself.
- * -
The "Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster." part.
Tossing the shrinked item on the mouth of the hole so that it would expand after hitting a hard surface will not guarantee in any way that it will cover the whole area. You have very little control on the actual placement of your skrinked wall. And it will require a attack action (if you are trying to place the item with some precision) or at least a movement action.
The command part will allow you a better control, but it will require a standard action from the original caster of the shrink spell.
A command word is a standard action, similarly dismissing a spell require a standard action from the original caster, so I suppose that the "command" part of unskrinking will require a standard action too.
As the rules don't say what kind of action is required to unskrink a item it seem a reasonable assumption.
Simple rule.
Would you want your characters killed automatically with no save by a BBEG doing this?
Would you complain about GM Fiat?
If you answered yes, then it shouldn't be done.
Monsters can't be killed instantly by damage, because it would be unfair?
What?
When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.So if you put a wall of stone on top of the pit, creatures in the pit will rise 'till they are standing on top of the wall of stone.
This
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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See, that seems like the end of the game, because at that point the entire game becomes a contest to find ways to get people into pits, because "crushed by immovable object on exit" is much more dangerous than anything else you can do.
Yea and it is also the end of the games together, because if a player seriously wanted to do this and didn't take "no" as an answer. I'd quit playing with them.
@seebs Deities from 3.5 didn't even have anything close to 2000hp. Unless you are saying that this combo would kill a deity instantly by an enormous margin then you have to admit this combo is not insta kill
Lets compare this to granite which is a very heavy stone and weighs about 30lb per sq ft. at 2" thick. At 9th caster level it would be 2" thick, cover 9 squares, and weigh 6,750lbs. The spell says you rise to the surface slowly so it wouldn't be like it fell on you, it would be like it was placed on you softly. Is there a chart somewhere for crushing damage based off weight? I'm thinking something along the lines of 9d8(1d8/lvl) per round. Also, its important to remember here that the stone is not immovable, there for you would not be squished instantly, you would need to reach the appropriate negative HP first and even then you would be liquidized
Lets count balancing factors. Isnt there a reflex save? Also, it would need to any armor with a hardness first. And yur team has time to get you out by lifting or magic or whatever they can do. A person could lift this off of a team mate by them self if they have a 36 Str, which is within reach for a 9th lvl barbarian while raging, which is the same level the spell was cast at. If he falls short of this Str score then he's still got the rest of the group to help.
This combo is nowhere near instakill
Ah yes, I forgot the stone wall is connected to the earth. So the damage I suggested until death or a way out is found then, and that's only if you actually fall into the pit
Of course magic armor or steel armor might be tough enough to snap the stone wall off its base in this instance. Some sort of opposed check between objects perhaps? Or say, both the wall and armor take 1d8/lvl/rnd until one gives. If its the armor that gives then the PC takes the damage in subsequent rounds, if its the wall that gives then the PC is free to get up and go to the smithy to have their armor repaired
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@137ben while most PC's have flight, the question was if its unbalancing in the groups favor if used against enemies, many of which do not have flight. That's a good point about comparing to other save or die spells though
Perhaps then the creature trapped should take damage equal to the walls HP + hardness. If it does not kill he creature then the wall snaps. What do you think about that?
I see crushing damage working exactly like this, equal damage to both until one collapses. I see yur point about this case being instant though. Since magic automatically brought the creature to a thin gap rather than crushing it until it could fit then all that damage should be done at once. This would solve that issue
Its impossible to imagine this scenario killing absolutely anything caught in it, like a CR20 dragon that had 1 gallon of scotch to many at the Christmas party and stumbled into the pit on the fly home. So its got to have a different outcome then save or die. The above proposed seems pretty reasonable to me
Perhaps then the creature trapped should take damage equal to the walls HP + hardness. If it does not kill he creature then the wall snaps. What do you think about that?
Why make it complicated what the way of handling suggested by others (JJ, James Risner any myself among others) is much easier.
137ben I was thinking gargantuan but I didn't look up the pit spell. Would a huge fit? Either way, you could just replace the dragon in my example with an angel or something powerful of appropriate size for he pit. Do you understand my point though?
Umbranus my bad I missed his suggestion. Can you paste it for me?I'd much rather go with a devs suggestion than my own
This is certainly a creative use for the spells, but it's also well beyond the intent of the spell. I'd say that if you create a wall over a pit in this manner, the pit's new opening simply shifts up to the top of the wall—the pit stays the same size, it just shifts upward enough so that the upper edge is still flush with the "surface" above. Then when the pit spell ends, things within are deposited atop the recently-created wall.
Going with the "cap the victim in place in the pit" option can be fun, though... fun enough that it should probably be it's own specialized spell.
And anyway, the create pit spells are already arguably too good for the levels they're all at anyway. They don't need help being better. ;-)
@seebs ill give you the most extreme example of why its hard to imagine because its the most obvious. If a deity chose not to defend himself in any way against this type of attack, it still would not kill him. He would snap the stone.
you can't be tough enough to stop it from pushing you, but you can be tougher than the stone wall and break it instead of it breaking you. If you have the ability to make a 5' thick wall, that's fine. Apply the same rule. That wall would have 900HP(15/inch) + 8 hardness so you would apply 908 damage to the creature being crushed, if it doesn't kill the creature then the wall breaks. Pretty simple, fair, versitile, and realistic. In fact if its not realistic its because it doesn't do ENOUGH damage
Yur example of being expelled from an extradimensional space is flawed because the stone wall was never part of the extradimensional space. Also the fact that they've used both a 2nd level spell and a 5th level spell to do 1d6 damage should tell you some things not right
Still, I'd like to hear what Jacobs had to say. Now that I'm not at work ima see if I can find it
Edit* thanx Umbranus. I just noticed youve already reposted for me. Appreciated:) I have to disagree with him though. Yur not making a create pit spell better, yur using a second turn to cast an additional spell, of greatly increased spell level none the less. He IS a dev thouh and it would not be unwise to follow his advice
Most big bad creatures you're going to fight are bigger than any sized Pit you try to create. It might trap a few mooks and make a section of combat very difficult to bypass without help *cough*fly/hover*cough*, but it's not unbeatable, and if you're running into BBEGs or other such creatures who don't have those bases covered, you're only asking to get killed like a cheap copout.
I'm also more surprised how a trap that involves a long corridor sealed tight with 2 walls collapsing upon you isn't broken or unintended to work at all, but a magical self-creating pit that has a stony wall closed upon it (which then eventually proceeds to immediate collapse from the bottom of said pit to the wall) is a taboo thing to have?
Especially when it takes the span of 3 rounds on average (the average duration of any given combat) to accomplish this "absolutely overpowered" strategy?
Granted, I'm all for nerfing the already overpowered casters, but there is a difference between balancing out the gap, and being outright stupid about things.
This is something that goes into the latter category.
(And before I hear people saying you cannot dismiss the Create Pit spell, I suggest you start reading up on the actions in combat regarding spells for your real answer.)
First, I'm not seeing anything that would give a basis for this exchange-of-damage idea where you do the same damage to both of them until one breaks.
The 2nd and 5th level spell did more than 1d6 damage -- the 1d6 is on top of the normal behavior of the pit. And Wall of Stone normally does zero damage no matter what; it's not a damaging spell. Converting it to do hundreds of points of damage is making it do more damage than, say, a full meteor swarm.
it wouldn't do hundreds of points of damage. A wall of stone only has 15hp per inch of thickness. Its 1" thick per 4 levels. If someonen did it the way i described then even at level 20 it would only do 75hp of damage. You gave an example that the wall was 5' thick, which isnt possible with that spell but I entertained the idea anyway.
If you do want to arrange this scenario with a wall that thick then you will be using several rounds to cast several spells. The enemy would have a save to get out of it and multiple rounds to figure out alternative options, and probably friends swinging weapons at the caster. If you use that amount of effort to grant someone that many chances to get out of the damage and pull it off anyway then it deserves to do that degree of damage, but yur not gonna pull it off very often. Normal wall of stone would only do 15 damage per 4 levels and still takes a few rounds
As for not seeing merit to my exchange of damage idea, push yur hands together. Cant you feel the pressure equally on both hands? The reason a brick will hold up longer then your hand is because it has a hardness and more HP then you hand, not because it doesn't absorb the same amount of pressure
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See, I don't buy that.
If you are in a space 1/10" of an inch thick or less, there is no "ongoing damage". It's physically impossible for you to still be anything but a paste.
With things like "lava" or "falling damage" you can say "well, er, you're super tough, so tough it doesn't even make sense, so you just take a ton of damage". But crushed-completely, there's no place for you to be. You can't be in the pit because the pit ceased to exist. You can't be outside it because there's no space there.
Thus, my answer: The extradimensional space attempts to eject you, it fails, you take 1d6 and are shunted to a nearby location.
That wall can be burst with a doable strength check. It is not a immovable item. WTF, even wall of force nowadays can be broken by physical might. "a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level"
Perhaps then the creature trapped should take damage equal to the walls HP + hardness. If it does not kill he creature then the wall snaps. What do you think about that?
I see crushing damage working exactly like this, equal damage to both until one collapses. I see yur point about this case being instant though. Since magic automatically brought the creature to a thin gap rather than crushing it until it could fit then all that damage should be done at once. This would solve that issue
Its impossible to imagine this scenario killing absolutely anything caught in it, like a CR20 dragon that had 1 gallon of scotch to many at the Christmas party and stumbled into the pit on the fly home. So its got to have a different outcome then save or die. The above proposed seems pretty reasonable to me
Well, why is it "impossible" to imagine? The limiting factor on crushing damage is how much force you can apply, and to what extent he thing being crushed can simply sit there not being crushed. But there's no upper limit on the force involved in the space you used to be in no longer existing! You can't be tough enough to prevent it from pushing you, because there is nowhere for you to be but crushed.
And it's pretty easy to make the wall arbitrarily-thick given a little time and effort. Rock to mud on some nearby rock, dispel. (Yes, dispelling rock-to-mud results in rock again; that's why it's "permanent" rather than "instantaneous".) So you can have the wall have pretty much all the hit points you want. Five feet thick? Not hard to arrange.
And this is why I prefer answers like "the surface moves" or "shunt to a location where there is space". I'd give you the 1d6 damage from that, because hey, you *did* put in extra effort.
... Note that this doesn't handle the case where, say, you cover the mouth of the pit with large, fixed, blades. But I think, again, the general rule should be "regardless of whether it's instantaneous or happening over one round, being expelled from an...
Actually your mud would flow in the hole, not flaot above it, so you would fill the hole with a lot of mud and then dispel it into stone.
The stone column will rise when the pit rise and form a stone pillar.The reformed stone don't merge with pre-existing stone. It is a like a concrete plug, not a part of the pre-existing stone.
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Especially when it takes the span of 3 rounds on average (the average duration of any given combat) to accomplish this "absolutely overpowered" strategy?
Ah, this statement, so false.
Maybe in your games the NPC always say Banzor and win or die in 3 rounds on the average, in mine they think about self preservation.|
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5) You'd have to be min 5th level to shrink a wall that is 6'x6'x1'. Even then you'd only have 1' on each side of the pit covered. I would think correctly placing the shrunken wall might take another standard action to place it so it correctly covers the pit. If not the person in the pit just move to the far side as the pit rises and miss the wall. I think placing it would add another round, for a total of 3 rounds of work now.
The pit is 10'*10'.
6'*6'*1'= 36 cubic feet
Shrink items: Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
You need to be 18th level to shrink a 6'x6'x1'wall.