Pit spell + A shrink wall and dispel pit


Rules Questions

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


(And before I hear people saying you cannot dismiss the Create Pit spell, I suggest you start reading up on the actions in combat regarding spells for your real answer.)
PRD wrote:


(D) Dismissible: If the duration line ends with “(D),” you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Now please make a note of how many of the various pit spells have that little (D) listed in their duration? Pit spells cannot be dismissed.


Diego Rossi wrote:


That wall can be burst with a doable strength check. It is not a immovable item. WTF, even wall of force nowadays can be broken by physical might. "a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level"

What's the strength check to break a stone wall over a foot thick?

Also, for the mud, the idea is that you put the wall of stone down, then cover it with mud which reverts to rock, so you end up with a very very thick rock thing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
seebs wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


That wall can be burst with a doable strength check. It is not a immovable item. WTF, even wall of force nowadays can be broken by physical might. "a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level"

What's the strength check to break a stone wall over a foot thick?

Also, for the mud, the idea is that you put the wall of stone down, then cover it with mud which reverts to rock, so you end up with a very very thick rock thing.

Already covered:

1) no normal caster can shrink a stone wall capable to support itself and cover a 10'*10' hole. (and will have some problem in placing his shrieked wall correctly).
A 1 foot thick wall with a surface of 11'*11' has a volume of 121 cubic feet. You have a 61th level cast at hand?
At most a 6th level caster can shrink a 11'*11' wall 1 inch thick.
A 20th level caster can shrink a 4 inch tick wall.
it can work with a iron wall, but it would have hardness 10, 120 hp a break DC of 33 and could be moved with a strength DC of 40 (with some bonuses for being braced on the other side).

Breaking a 1' stone wall require a DC 32 strength check.

2) covering it with muds from a nearby rock require to have a rock at an higher level than the wall and that there isn't room for the mud to flow in another direction. Mud don't flow uphill.
Maybe the sloped borders of the pit will help you here, but only if you have a stone item to turn to mud just over the pit.
Note that nowhere the rules say how deep is the sloped border. For what we know it can be a 1" deep slope.
It can work if the guy using this trick has prepared the battlefield so that he can use it, very rarely in a random location.

3) a Combination of a 4" tick iron wall and a 1' layer of rock has a burst DC of 46 but the mud don't fuse to the existing rock. It is the equivalent of a concrete plug, not part of the adjoining bedrock. so it can be moved away.

4) Wall of stone.
If you cast it on the pit walls the wall will rise with the trapped creatures (I would not allow it as the walls of the pit are part of a extradimensional space, not true stone, but the spell say that the walls are "coarse stone" so there is a basis for using them for the wall spell). The walls of the pit will disappear when the spell end, so it will end with a slab of stone on top of some creatures. Some damage? Probable. Pinned? Probable. squished to a paste? No.
If you cast it above the pit, linking it to adjacent stone, you need to have some existing stone (not earth, a random flagstone, a ship deck and so on) and "if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed." (Wall of stone spell). Not so easy.
If you have to buttress and arch it the creatures in the pit will avoid it with ease when the pit floor slowly rise. It will spend a full round rising, everyone in the pit has the chance to act.


Lets do math!
Squared feet is ft * ft
Cubic feet is ft * ft * ft

The wall's cubic feet would be 1*11*11=121 cubic feet
Shrink item spell affects 2 cubic feet per level 2*2*2=8
121/8=15.125 or 16th level

Lets make it only 6" thick
.5*11*11=60.5
60.5/8=7.5 or 8th level.

Lets look at the weight of the stone per cubic foot.
Stone weighs between 150-200, lets use 150lbs per cubic foot.
Each caster level affects 8*150=1200lbs
A 6" think wall to cover the pit weighs 9075 or 2.27lbs when shrunk.
A 1' think wall to cover the pit weighs 18150 or 4.54lbs when shrunk.

So even the 6" think wall is way over anyone's carrying capacity to lift the wall (even for round) to move it from over the pit.

The pit rises at a maximum rate of 30'/round, so there isn't really any impact damage.

I said earlier I would play this as...

Quote:
Falling Block Trap that automatically hits and traps their victims, treating them as entangled and can't move.

Under idea circumstances I think this would still be true (normal ground is a flat hard surface, but there are variables that you have to account for. What is the terrain like? If its farm land, mud or sand I don't think you'd do as much damage since the ground would compress before a person (mud/sand may cause other problems for the victim). If the ground wasn't flat the trapped character might take less damage (the entire weight of the slab isn't on them). It also depends on what the victim did. If they just stood there and took weight standing, then they are dumb and took alot of damage. If they laid down and took the weight evenly distributed then its alot less pressure. The human body can take alot of weight. Its when its localized that it breaks bone.

Doing the math I would say the person is still entangled, but cannot escape, unless there were terrain modifiers or other circumstances or they used magic. I might even add constriction damage per round if everything was perfect (flat solid ground).

This maneuver take 3 rounds to accomplish.
Round 1) Cast create pit and hope the victim fails their save.
Round 2) Place shrunk wall correctly to cover pit. The shrunk item weighs over 2lbs and must be within 3"-6" of the pit opening, that sounds like a standard action.
Round 3) Activate shrunk wall to enlarge it to cover pit.

A 8th level spellcaster spending 3 rounds, using a prepared magical item and a 2nd level spell that allows a reflex save. All three of which provoke attacks of opportunity. Should be compared to what the 8th level spellcaster could do with three rounds. (Acid pit + black tentacles + wall of fire comes to mind)
I don't think its that bad.

As for breaking the stone wall at the top of the pit. A 1' think stone wall has a break DC of 35 so its rare that someone is going to make it. But alot of spell would just remove the wall (stone shape, shrink item).


@splendor if the wall is 1" thick then it would be 1/12*11*11

A 1" slab measuring 11'x11' is nowhere near 121 cubic feet, its 10.083 cubic feet. Ive done this type of equation several times when ordering concrete


@seebs you keep using examples of 5' and 1' thick walls but the spell doesn't even come close to that type of capability. That's like saying teleports overpowered because you shouldn't be able to get to the moon with a 5th level spell.

A wall as thick as in your examples likely WOULD be instant death. But you can't justify ruling against it doing damage based on those examples when they aren't possible. If someone reached the insane god level it would take to actually create a wall that thick then it certainly SHOULD do hundreds or thousands of points of damage and probably instantly kill them


jimibones83 wrote:

@splendor if the wall is 1" thick then it would be 1/12*11*11

A 1" slab measuring 11'x11' is nowhere near 121 cubic feet, its 10.083 cubic feet. Ive done this type of equation several times when ordering concrete

I just realized that your exampled wall of 121 cubic feet was at 1 foot thick, not 1 inch. My apologies, yur math was right. You didn't specify foot until after the equation so when I saw it I assumed inch because i didnt think the spell was capable of a foot

However now that I read the spell again I realize that I'm wrong, its actually capable of covering the pit with a slab 16" thick cast at 20th level and split in half twice to double up on thickness. My apologies to you and seebs, it can conjure up a wall 1' thick. This method of casting with my suggested rate of damage exchange would deal 188 points of damage (15/inch +8 hardness) to the target and snap the wall if it the target doesn't die. That's the maximum potential of the spell and its not that far fetched for a 20th level caster to achieve with multiple spells, nor is it something that will instakill very many 20th level combatants. I'm easily breaking 250hp by then when I play melee characters. Plus there's a save and it takes multiple rounds


Instant death is too strong for a level 2 spell. I would rule that any creatures in the pit are shunted to an open space and take 1d6 damage.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
Instant death is too strong for a level 2 spell. I would rule that any creatures in the pit are shunted to an open space and take 1d6 damage.

its not a level 2 spell, its the combo of a level 2 spell and a level 5 spell. But I do agree that instant death is not the right way to handle it, I just think shunting is just as bad in the opposite direction. That's why I proposed equal damage until the wall breaks

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Splendor wrote:

Lets do math!

Squared feet is ft * ft
Cubic feet is ft * ft * ft

The wall's cubic feet would be 1*11*11=121 cubic feet
Shrink item spell affects 2 cubic feet per level 2*2*2=8
121/8=15.125 or 16th level

Wrong math. The volume affected isn't 2'*2'*2= 8 cubic feet level.

It is 2 cubic feet level.

You are confusing 2 different kind of area of effect.
Your mat would be right if the AoE were defined as in Transmute rock to mud:
Area up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
where the AoE give you a number of cubes to work with.
But Shrink item say:
Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
2 cubic feet/level. Not 1 2x2x2 feet cube level

The spell fabricate make the difference of the two AoE even more evident:
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text (10 cubic feet, not a 10' cube(
then if you look the spell text:
"If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
jimibones83 wrote:


However now that I read the spell again I realize that I'm wrong, its actually capable of covering the pit with a slab 16" thick cast at 20th level and split in half twice to double up on thickness.

The spell don't allow you to do that, You can do only the opposite.

PRD wrote:
This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall's area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.


@Diego ah yes yur right, thank you sir. So my suggestion of equal damage exchange would actually only deal 83 damage casted at 20th level and then the wall would break. That seems totally appropriate to me and wouldn't even come close to killing anyone of appropriate challenge


There is a lot of really bad rules translation going on here. First, Wall of Stone is one 5 ft sq. per level. Thus, a 9th level caster can cover 9 5 ft. squares. The top of a pit is only 4 5 ft. squares. If the wall has to cover the entire span, including the slopes, that's a extra 5 ft. on each side. At no point does the span ever need to be great than 20 ft. across. It is 20 ft. from edge of slope to edge of slope in the pit.

Moreover, the combination of a 2nd and 5th level spell is very powerful, I cannot understand people who even suggest it should do no additional damage or a pittance like 1d6. Surely you can compromise at least and create damage worthy of the use of two spell slots and a failed reflex save.

Also if the enemy is not flying it only gets one shot at the wall as it rises in the space of a round.


The 'Wall of Stone' that is being shrunk doesn't not have to be a wall of stone created by the Wall of Stone spell. It could just be any stone wall that you cast shrink item on.

Quote:

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

2 cubic feet/level. Not 1 2x2x2 feet cube level

Do you mean that a 6th level caster can affect 12 cubic feet and not twelve 2 cubic foot blocks? (12x12x12=1728' vs 12x2x2x2=96') If that is the case you can shrink the wall at 5th level.


Having reread through all the rules again. I am looking at these two may things: The Create Pit spells wording and leaving an extradimensional space.

1) But reading the last line of the spell:

Quote:
When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.

I could see that the 'surface' would now be the top of the wall of stone.

2) Rereading dimensional travel spells & rules:

Teleport

Quote:
Off Target: You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is d% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly

Dimension Door

Quote:
If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
Quote:
Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport...

Dimension door is the only Conjuration spell I could find that still has a damage rule for teleporting into a solid object.

Since pit created is an extradimensional space and when the spell ends you are shoved from one dimension into another its kinda like plane shifting, which doesn't have a chance of taking damage.

Because of these reason I am changing my stance. Since the top of the pit has a new surface and there is only one occurrence of leaving an extra dimensional space doing damage (dimension door), I would say you are shifted to the new surface on top of the wall of stone. At most I would deal d6 damage for having a 'mishap' and be 'shunted' though a solid object.


@splendor unless the stone becomes part of the earth then there would be a surface underneath the stone. That would be the surface of the pit

Teleport and dimension door are different because they are not offensive spells. They avoid damage because they are meant to be used on yourself and friendlies only. Create pits an offensive spell. It may not directly do damage but since its an offensive spell its perfectly understandable that it not avoid doing damage if a creative use was found for it

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Splendor wrote:

The 'Wall of Stone' that is being shrunk doesn't not have to be a wall of stone created by the Wall of Stone spell. It could just be any stone wall that you cast shrink item on.

Quote:

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

2 cubic feet/level. Not 1 2x2x2 feet cube level
Do you mean that a 6th level caster can affect 12 cubic feet and not twelve 2 cubic foot blocks? (12x12x12=1728' vs 12x2x2x2=96') If that is the case you can shrink the wall at 5th level.

Again, no, we are not speaking of blocks.

We are speaking of a cubic measurement used the normal way.
2 cubic feet x 6 = 12 cubic feet.
that is 12'x1x1'
or 1"x12'x12'

This kind of area of effect give you x cubes to work with:
Area up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)

An area of effect that give you 2 cubic feet of AoO give you 2 cubic feet, not a cube with a 2' side.

Basic geometry.

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

There is a lot of really bad rules translation going on here. First, Wall of Stone is one 5 ft sq. per level. Thus, a 9th level caster can cover 9 5 ft. squares. The top of a pit is only 4 5 ft. squares. If the wall has to cover the entire span, including the slopes, that's a extra 5 ft. on each side. At no point does the span ever need to be great than 20 ft. across. It is 20 ft. from edge of slope to edge of slope in the pit.

Moreover, the combination of a 2nd and 5th level spell is very powerful, I cannot understand people who even suggest it should do no additional damage or a pittance like 1d6. Surely you can compromise at least and create damage worthy of the use of two spell slots and a failed reflex save.

Also if the enemy is not flying it only gets one shot at the wall as it rises in the space of a round.

You need to cover a 20'x20' area or you have to link your some wall to a piece of terrain affected by the spell (the slope around the pit.

Wall of stone "merges into adjoining rock surfaces". The first rock surface outside the slope is outside the 20'*20' area.
So you need to cover an area that is above the 20' limit and you need to arch and buttress the wall.

The key here is how you consider the sloe area. It is part of the area affected by the spell or not?
I would say that it is part of the area affected. If I cast the spell on a ship deck there is no reason for the deck outside the 10'x10' hole to be sloped beside the effect of the spell. But if the spell is the one that create the slope, the area of the slope is affected by the spell.

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