RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I also assert that I could take this character just fine into any AP and do well with him.I think you'd have a lot of trouble in Rise of the Runelords. Especially in a 4 person party.
Not saying you couldn't have fun, and that getting creative might not accomplish everything you need to. It'd be pretty tricky though.
Oh I make no assertion that playing my stat array would be easy. Rogue is certainly one of the toughest classes to play well. Personally I consider myself at best okay at it. Yes my rogue is crap at combat, but I'm not sure that another +1-2 to hit or AC really helps that in any significant way. By 10th level that stat point is still just +1 to hit, but it's now +10 to a skill.
I've seen rogues get played in ways that put a prepared wizard to shame. A rogue with a creative player is a walking non-magical toolbox of problem solving. While the rest of the party is in the first room fighting the guards the rogue has already retrieved the macguffin. So yes, the group is effectively down a member in combats, but they don't have to fight as many combats if the rogue is doing her job.
I've seen a rogue played all the way through 2 APs: Serpent's Skull and Carrion Crown. In Serpent's Skull the rogue was pretty much the reason the party won the last fight. Without him they probably would have TPKed, and this is at level 17. In both cases the rogue was usually an asset and only rarely a liability.
Even in combat they should be using their skills. Figure out ways to use the terrain, local objects, heck the enemy's own clothing against them. If you pump Str, and expect to stand there and full attack while the monster gnaws on your crappy AC and bad saves, no wonder you're disappointed. For some players the very fact that there's no "go to" action written on their sheet helps them be creative.
This has gotten long so let me end with this. Number crunching wise (MATH!) the rogue doesn't really measure up, it's true. If your game is only about numbers I'd steer clear of the rogue. But if your GM is the sort of person who allows creative problem solving and cool ideas to work, the rogue can be a joy and a wonder.
I have a friend that's an excellent rogue player. he played the rogue in Serpent's Skull I mentioned above. Asking him the thread title question would get you this:
Rogue is better than bard because:
More skill points (13/level is not enough!)
No spellcasting (he hates spells)
More open flavor (bard still has a little bit of the "singing guy with a lute" feel)
Evasion and Uncanny Dodge
Rogue Talents are more versatile than the bard's preset abilities.
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I noticed something about the Archaeologist. While they get the trapfinding ability, Disable Device is still a non-class skill for them.Dude! Don't attract too much attention to Bards! Paizo may decide to Crane Wing the class!
They nerfed Investigators and the class is not even out yet! Why? Because they make Rogues look bad...
News flash, Paizo. EVERY class makes Rogues look bad! Except, maybe, Fighters, but that is just because they suffer from different problems... And Fighters at least manage to be reliable at what they do (as limited as that is).
That's what Traits are for.
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I also assert that I could take this character just fine into any AP and do well with him.I think you'd have a lot of trouble in Rise of the Runelords. Especially in a 4 person party.
Not saying you couldn't have fun, and that getting creative might not accomplish everything you need to. It'd be pretty tricky though.
Oh I make no assertion that playing my stat array would be easy. Rogue is certainly one of the toughest classes to play well. Personally I consider myself at best okay at it. Yes my rogue is crap at combat, but I'm not sure that another +1-2 to hit or AC really helps that in any significant way. By 10th level that stat point is still just +1 to hit, but it's now +10 to a skill.
I've seen rogues get played in ways that put a prepared wizard to shame. A rogue with a creative player is a walking non-magical toolbox of problem solving. While the rest of the party is in the first room fighting the guards the rogue has already retrieved the macguffin. So yes, the group is effectively down a member in combats, but they don't have to fight as many combats if the rogue is doing her job.
I've seen a rogue played all the way through 2 APs: Serpent's Skull and Carrion Crown. In Serpent's Skull the rogue was pretty much the reason the party won the last fight. Without him they probably would have TPKed, and this is at level 17. In both cases the rogue was usually an asset and only rarely a liability.
Even in combat they should be using their skills. Figure out ways to use the terrain, local objects, heck the enemy's own clothing against them. If you pump Str, and expect to stand there and full attack while the monster gnaws on your crappy AC and bad saves, no wonder you're disappointed. For some players the very fact that there's no "go to" action written on their sheet helps them be creative.
This has gotten long so let me end with this. Number crunching wise (MATH!) the rogue doesn't really measure up, it's...
So in combat do you just stand there? Coooooooooooll....
1) More Skill Points: Um whoop... profession: basketweaver totally makes me jealous
2) No spellcasting: You consider this an advantage???? So, you ENJOY being a drain on everyone else in addition to being a liability.
3) More Open Flavor: This is only because you apperantly suck at being creative. You are aware that a bard is not just a lute guy... Just because OotS made the spoony bard famous, does not mean that is even the default bard. A bard can just a easily be the guy who inspires people with powerful speechs before battle, inspire people with his combat prowess and grace, can show people how it is done through his skill of acting and mimicry, or whatever you want. Let me guess, you also think ninja's must run around in pajamas with kusari-gamas?
4) Evasion: One useful thing the rogue has, but I prefer to have 2 good saves...
5) Uncanny Dodge: so.. your rogue is good against rogues... who are not even a threat in the first place...so... whoop?
6) Rogue Talents are more versatile than bard abilities: um... care to explain? Because you need a rogue talent to spread nasty rumors? (Funny thing is, the bard could do this easy. Its called having a high bluff combined with high Cha). Or how about those trapfinding talents. Oh! and lets not forget the most common thing for many people to do is to find ways to cheese the Combat feat talents to get more feats... since most of the talents are trash...
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Just one point, while the Bard is building up their buff chain, they are not doing any damage. 5 rounds later, the bard is finally (maybe?) done with the buff chain, and the rogue probably killed him. (Hence the maybe.)
It isn't that bard + martial does more damage. It's that bard + the extra damage bard buffs the martial to do (which includes higher damage from hitting more often) does more damage than rogue. Haste, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice, etc... add up fast.
you can't read can you?
Or we can just make this easy and cast dominate on the rogue...
The bard buff time is one round. That would be the round your rogue spends trying and failing to tumble into a flank.Just one point, while the Bard is building up their buff chain, they are not doing any damage. 5 rounds later, the bard is finally (maybe?) done with the buff chain, and the rogue probably killed him. (Hence the maybe.)
It isn't that bard + martial does more damage. It's that bard + the extra damage bard buffs the martial to do (which includes higher damage from hitting more often) does more damage than rogue. Haste, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice, etc... add up fast.
That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...
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Just one point, while the Bard is building up their buff chain, they are not doing any damage. 5 rounds later, the bard is finally (maybe?) done with the buff chain, and the rogue probably killed him. (Hence the maybe.)
It isn't that bard + martial does more damage. It's that bard + the extra damage bard buffs the martial to do (which includes higher damage from hitting more often) does more damage than rogue. Haste, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice, etc... add up fast.
By 13th I can pretty readily do three buffs in a turn as a Bard. By 7th I can do two. These count the Performance, of course.
Five turns would be silly, unless you have time to prep of course, which you should if you've maxed Stealth and been using it and Invisibility to scout.
That's what Traits are for.Isn't the trait you are alluding to specific to a particular campaign? If that is the case, then it isn't universal to be able to pick up.
I was referring to Vagabond child, actually. Which, as others have mentioned, is from the APG and available to anyone who grew up in a city. Trapfinder is needed for a generic Bard to get Trapfinding, but superfluous on an Archaeologist.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's what Traits are for.Isn't the trait you are alluding to specific to a particular campaign? If that is the case, then it isn't universal to be able to pick up.
There's a follower of Brigh trait that grants it. As well as criminal from Ultimate Campaign, to name two.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And Vagabond Child is a generic trait which will give them the skill as a class skill if they really want it. The AP specific one is in Mummy's Mask and gives trapfinding.I noticed that they get 'trap finding' as part of the Archetype. That gives a +1 per two levels, the same as the Rogue gets. However, I looked specifically, and the Archaeologist doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill.Nope, the archaeologist gets trapfinding as part of the archetype. Something like Vagabond Child will give them the skill as a class skill.That's what Traits are for.Isn't the trait you are alluding to specific to a particular campaign? If that is the case, then it isn't universal to be able to pick up.
missed that one. That's 3 :-)
That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...Nice joke, you should do parties or maybe go on the comedy circuit.
see the build..do the math.
see the build..do the math.That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...Nice joke, you should do parties or maybe go on the comedy circuit.
You mean the one where you assume your Rogue found/bought a Belt of Dex +6 by 10th level (which costs more than half his appropriate WBL), is always hasted and manages to apply Sneak Attack to all of his (ranged) attacks?
Right...
What are his AC, saves, CMD and HP again? And where is he getting that +18 damage from?
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*Reads thread title*
...Suck.
*Answered thread title*
see the build..do the math.That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...Nice joke, you should do parties or maybe go on the comedy circuit.You mean the one where you assume your Rogue found/bought a Belt of Dex +6 by 10th level (which costs more than half his appropriate WBL), is always hasted and manages to apply Sneak Attack to all of his (ranged) attacks?
What are his AC, saves, CMD and HP again?
Belt +4..+ level 4 and 8 points.
Boots of speed activating is free action.
AC19, CMD26, hp10d8+40
(you can trade the least level to dip 1 level in oracle wave or you can pick it at level 11, than you will sneak all the rounds for sure)
Edit: i post two builds...the last on the damage is +14. +2 str, +2 bow +4 deadly aim, if in 30ft +1 point blank and +10 from sniper goggle.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This one.which build?see the build..do the math.That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...Nice joke, you should do parties or maybe go on the comedy circuit.
Ah, saw that in his post history, but didn't see a breakdown of how he got all those bonuses. For example I saw haste, where's that coming from? Or the +14 damage? Also seems situational to start within 30' for sneak attack. Not enough data to conclude. CR 10 average AC is 24 so his two shots with Rapid shot will hit most likely, his third shot is a little less than 40/60 to hit. Assuming all the shots hit, that's average 120 HP damage by my math, cr 10 monster is still standing, albiet not well. A CR 10 fire Giant will have 22 Hp left. That also doesn't take into account rogue HP, AC etc.
Hardly "That one round is what my rogue will need to kill my enemy" though.
Edit: I'd like to see how he is statted out, akin to Barry bard
This one.which build?see the build..do the math.That one round is what my rogue need to kill the enemy...Nice joke, you should do parties or maybe go on the comedy circuit.Ah, saw that in his post history, but didn't see a breakdown of how he got all those bonuses. For example I saw haste, where's that coming from? Or the +14 damage? Also seems situational to start within 30' for sneak attack. Not enough data to conclude. CR 10 average AC is 24 so his two shots with Rapid shot will hit most likely, his third shot is a little less than 40/60 to hit. Assuming all the shots hit, that's average 120 HP damage by my math, cr 10 monster is still standing, albiet not well. A CR 10 fire Giant will have 22 Hp left. That also doesn't take into account rogue HP, AC etc.
Hardly "That one round is what my rogue will need to kill my enemy" though.
If you do a little research the Fire giant is ONE of the 3 or 4 monsters in entire CR10 that has more than 120 hp. And 22hp left is enough for any one in the party end the job
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Here is my archer Bard...
Human Bard 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +20 - 1d8+ 40 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +20 - 1d8+ 40 + 18
1st Attack +20 - 1d8+ 40
2nd Attack +15 - 1d8+ 40
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim.
He's always under effect of Haste, Greater Heroism and Greater Invisibility. Always.
How did he get those numbers? What? You want me to clarify? No, no... You go ahead and do some research.
Looking over the Sanctified rogue build, I'm struggling a bit with the math - there is some information missing.
Deadly aim penalizes -2 to hit and adds +4 to damage.
Strength adds +2 to damage.
Dexterity adds +7 to hit.
BAB adds +7 to hit.
Haste adds +1 to hit.
A +2 bow adds +2 to hit, and does an average of 6.5 damage.
Point Blank shot adds +1 to hit and damage.
Weapon Training adds +1 to hit.
Sneak attack adds 17.5 to damage.
Sniper Goggles adds 10 to damage.
Rapid shot penalizes -2 to hit.
That only adds up to +15 to hit, not +18. Could you clarify the the missing modifiers?
The modifiers I found in your post results in an attack sequence of: +15/+15/+15/+10, with an average damage of ~41 per shot, assuming sneak attacks and the target is within 30 feet. Near as I can tell that's a DPR of 85 or so.
It should also be noted that you're missing Precise Shot and Clustered Shots, both of which I'd expect to see on a good archer build at this level. You also don't have a reliable way of getting sneak attacks past the first round (and only if you beat the initiative check), so one set of bad rolls will absolutely screw this character over. If the character misses his initiative roll or is unable to catch his enemy flat-footed his average damage per shot drops from ~41 to 13.
It would be helpful if you posted the complete build instead of a snapshot of it - preferably with equipment.
Says the man who won't post a complete character build.
If you'd do a little research you'd see I was quoting average stats.
Thank you for conceeding it's not "one round is what my rogue will need to kill the enemy."
I don´t post the complete build because that post is a quote to other old post with the full build
sorry.. i don´t know where can i see the average stats of a monster CR10. But i´m sure if you add all the CR10 HP and than divide for the number of the CR10 monster you will find a correct value..and that value isn´t 120.
If i kill a monster 90% of the time in on round a can assume that the rogue needs only one round..but if you saying i need 100% it´s ok to me...other member will kill that monster in the same round.
@lemmy
That seems a great build. But looks to much effort to compete with a underpower rogue.
@kudaku
that is the build with equips. In that build i don´t use deadly aim...you are right..my to hit is 17
Human Sanctified Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 24 Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 (dual talent trait)
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Indomitable Faith +1 will
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow), Point Blank Shot, Greater fortitude, Toughness,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack target with concelment), Weapon Training, combat trick(Rapid Shot), Feat(Iron will)
Saves:For:+9 Ref:+13 Will:+10 Hp:10d8+40
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, leather mw, cloak of resistence +1.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You're right, its' not 120.
It's 130. So you're not killing the monster 90% of the time. I'll let the DPR folks do the math.
Again, all you're showing is you're not doing the research, while saying others aren't doing the research, who are.
Thank you for conceeding you don't have the build.
So far you've conceeded that you can't "kill the monster in one round" and you can't provide the build you thought you could kill the monster with in one round.
That is an interesting build, though I don't really think it shows the strength of the rogue very well - the complete dependency on sneak attacks coupled with no reliable way of actually making sneak attacks results in a character that's kind of shooting himself in the foot, pun intended.
I'd consider making a few alterations. First off, I'd replace the rogue levels with ninja levels, and switch intelligence and charisma. You get Greater Invisibility as a swift action with your lvl 10 master trick, which will allow you to make sneak attacks reliably past the first round. Coming up against enemies with See Invisibility will be an issue, but at least you have a semi-reliable way of dealing damage.
I'd replace the composite longbow with a shortbow and switch Weapon Proficiency with Clustered Shots - many CR 10+ monsters will have DR of 10/x or even 15/x, which will reduce your DPR significantly. In comparison the 1 point of average damage you drop by switching to a composite shortbow is a drop in the bucket.
I'd probably replace Toughness with Precise Shot and put the favored class points in HP instead of skills. Your to hit bonus is decent but not amazing, any penalties will penalize your output significantly.
Alternately, consider the alchemist. A vivisectionist alchemist will have a better to hit bonus due to long-term buffs such as Heroism, better damage modifiers (again, due to long-term buffs), the same sneak attack dice, roughly the same amount of skill points (2 baseline +4 intelligence +1 favored class +1 human = 8), and easy access to invisibility spells for guaranteed surprise rounds and more convenient sneak attacks.
...Which kind of brings us full circle again.
The correct will modifier is indeed a +8 instead of a +10, but to be honest we're mostly talking about dpr at the moment, not saves. He also has enough money to upgrade the cloak from +1 to +3 - didn't seem worth bringing it up.
Edit: Actually, scratch that. Just did the math, he has 1k left over with the gear listed above. His AC would be about... 19?
Says the man who won't post a complete character build.
If you'd do a little research you'd see I was quoting average stats.
Thank you for conceeding it's not "one round is what my rogue will need to kill the enemy."
I don´t post the complete build because that post is a quote to other old post with the full build
sorry.. i don´t know where can i see the average stats of a monster CR10. But i´m sure if you add all the CR10 HP and than divide for the number of the CR10 monster you will find a correct value..and that value isn´t 120.
If i kill a monster 90% of the time in on round a can assume that the rogue needs only one round..but if you saying i need 100% it´s ok to me...other member will kill that monster in the same round.
@lemmy
That seems a great build. But looks to much effort to compete with a underpower rogue.@kudaku
that is the build with equips. In that build i don´t use deadly aim...you are right..my to hit is 17
Human Sanctified Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 24 Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 (dual talent trait)
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 14
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Indomitable Faith +1 will
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow), Point Blank Shot, Greater fortitude, Toughness,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack target with concelment), Weapon Training, combat trick(Rapid Shot), Feat(Iron will)
Saves:For:+9 Ref:+13 Will:+10 Hp:10d8+40
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, leather mw, cloak of resistence +1.
That build has 27 point buy if i am counting correctly, the AC should be trash, the will save is way too much and it's missing a feat.
I am pretty sure i can find more mistakes if i search further.
Whatever happens, the Bard has got
Spellcasting, and the Rogue has not~
That build has 27 point buy if i am counting correctly, the AC should be trash, the will save is way too much and it's missing a feat.
I am pretty sure i can find more mistakes if i search further.
baseline stats would be this before racial modifiers:
1216
14
14
10
8
There's two +2 floating bonuses from the human alternate race trait on dexterity and strength, and +2 to dexterity from level progression. Throw in the +4 dexterity belt and it looks correct for 20 pb.
The will save should be +8.
The AC will be (10+7(dex)+1(haste)+1(armor)=19.
I'd use that unused feat on clustered shots personally.
Yes i forgot the ability increases at 4th and 8th, i am sorry it's on 20 point buy.
No he doesn't have enough left over money to make his cloak +3 from +1.
No he can't take clustered shots becuase he doesn't have precise shot.
His attack roll should be +18 (+7BAB+7DEX+2Bow+1Haste+1PBS+1Bracers+1WF-2RS) and not +17.
His damage should be +15, not +14.
hmm, how does the Scanctified rogue geta +10 on will? i see a +1 from the trait, +1 from the archtype +2 from Iron will, +1 from the cloak...
Gold doesn't look out of line with the grossly broken bracers.
i put it wrong..is 14 wis not 14 int
Yes i forgot the ability increases at 4th and 8th, i am sorry it's on 20 point buy.
No he doesn't have enough left over money to make his cloak +3 from +1.
No he can't take clustered shots becuase he doesn't have precise shot.
His attack roll should be +18 (+7BAB+7DEX+2Bow+1Haste+1PBS+1Bracers+1WF-2RS) and not +17.
His damage should be +15, not +14.
that is the problem of work and post builds at same time heheh
I run the DPR numbers, i assumed that the extra +2 damage per die from sniper googles is precision damage.
Under the following assumptions:
1) Target AC 24
2) First round of combat
3) Target hasn't acted yet
4) Within 30 feet of target
5) Using boots of speed
6) Target isn't engaged in melee
7) Target doesn't have cover
8) Target doesn't have DR
The DPR is 1st attack 29.175, 2nd (rapid shot) attack 29.175, 3rd attack (haste) 29.175, 4th attack 19.45
For a total DPR of 100.975.
The DPR is 1st attack 29.175, 2nd (rapid shot) attack 29.175, 3rd attack (haste) 29.175, 4th attack 19.45
For a total DPR of 100.975.
WIch is good but not that good considering he have low survivality and all the assumptiosn you have to make to reach that DPR. For example the DR 5 or DR 10 kills tthose numbers.
After the first round if the melee guy aproach to fight the monsters then the rogue face a -4 to -8 to attack and no sneak attack.
And if a monster with reach aproach the rogue he is screw.
Not to mention his saves are so-so at best.
I'd use that unused feat on clustered shots personally.I beleive that the Dual talent replaces the human bonus feat, so he's right on the feat numbers.
of course, after the first round, he's at a -8 shooting into combat as part of a team, or he's in melee.
Yes i know about the dual talent human alternative trait but still he has only 4 on his build instead of 5.
If I am were to make an archer rogue first I would multiclass 2 or 3 levels into weapon masters. Second I woudl try to be a standar archer (Many shots, clustered shots, precise shot) and do not depend that much of sneak attack. Third I would take the sniper archetype because I prefer to not be so close to the target.
Not sure how it would end, but that is what i would do.
Then I'm missing something. D'oh! Miscounted!
Yes and i didn't count rapid shot that isn't listed.
I believe Rapid shot is listed as a rogue talent.
The clustered shot recommendation was meant to be read in conjunction with the advice about shortbows earlier, should have made that more clear.
God I hate typing on the subway D=