GBT is what all martial 10th level abilities should aspire to be as strong as.
It really shouldn't. Martials already do truck-loads of damage.
Pounce reduces the game to rocket tag pretty quickly. At-least when druids get it they normally have low-ish to-hit to compensate. (that and elemental form is better in every way except for pounce)
Martials usually don't do truck-loads of damage without sitting in one spot, though. I kinda like being able to actually move around the map.
Pounce reduces the game to rocket tag pretty quickly. At-least when druids get it they normally have low-ish to-hit to compensate.
Lawl. Druids have way better To-hit since they don't have to deal with iteratives.
Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
Well Arcanofiend specifically said it should be used as a benchmark for other martials. So that implies that she thinks others should get similar stuff.
Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
Actually, I agree. I would rather see Pounce deleted from Barbarians, But that's probably not going to happen. So I advocate bringing other classes up to par, with similar features.
Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
How do they destroy magic with a swing of a sword?
How do they hurt spellcasters more without know they're spellcasters.
How do they hurt incorporeal creatures with their fists?
How do they grow wings?
CAUSE THIS ISN'T EARTH.
AND FOR SOME REASON RANGERS AND FIGHTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR. I GUESS THEY AREN'T ANGRY ENOUGH. WHY ARE WE YELLING IN CAPS?1?1!!1?
AND FOR SOME REASON RANGERS AND FIGHTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR. I GUESS THEY AREN'T ANGRY ENOUGH. WHY ARE WE YELLING IN CAPS?1?1!!1?Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
How do they destroy magic with a swing of a sword?
How do they hurt spellcasters more without know they're spellcasters.
How do they hurt incorporeal creatures with their fists?
How do they grow wings?
CAUSE THIS ISN'T EARTH.
Agreed.
"Look at all these other nonsense things barbars do!" is not a great way to defend the current state of barbars.
Yes, Rangers can't instantaneously a number of times per day have any enemy as if they've been training their entire life to kill this one type of creature. /Sarcasm
Its already a strong opinion on the forums that fighters are grossly underpowered.
You didn't even contest paladins.
One splat book spell.
Few people are complaining about the fighter's combat prowess.
Paladin's have similar problems. Thankfully we have fall mechanics to balance it out! /sarcasm
AND FOR SOME REASON RANGERS AND FIGHTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR. I GUESS THEY AREN'T ANGRY ENOUGH. WHY ARE WE YELLING IN CAPS?1?1!!1?Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
How do they destroy magic with a swing of a sword?
How do they hurt spellcasters more without know they're spellcasters.
How do they hurt incorporeal creatures with their fists?
How do they grow wings?
CAUSE THIS ISN'T EARTH.
Yes, Rangers can't instantaneously a number of times per day have any enemy as if they've been training their entire life to kill this one type of creature. /Sarcasm
Its already a strong opinion on the forums that fighters are grossly underpowered.
You didn't even contest paladins.
Instant enemy has nothing to do with mobile full attacks, Fighters are underpowered, why do Barbarians get to hoard all the nice things (skill points, powers, pounce)?
AND FOR SOME REASON RANGERS AND FIGHTERS CAN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR. I GUESS THEY AREN'T ANGRY ENOUGH. WHY ARE WE YELLING IN CAPS?1?1!!1?Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
How do they destroy magic with a swing of a sword?
How do they hurt spellcasters more without know they're spellcasters.
How do they hurt incorporeal creatures with their fists?
How do they grow wings?
CAUSE THIS ISN'T EARTH.
Agreed.
"Look at all these other nonsense things barbars do!" is not a great way to defend the current state of barbars.
Are you implying martials shouldn't be able to do anything that's unrealistic?
It has everything to do with the need to drop your expectations that Pathfinder gameplay should mimic reality, though. That ship has long sailed.
Are you implying martials shouldn't be able to do anything that's unrealistic?
Not at all. It just needs to make sense.
All magic is nonsensical by normal means.
Not at all.
It has everything to do with the need to drop your expectations that Pathfinder gameplay should mimic reality, though. That ship has long sailed.
Realistic does not equal "reality". It's about verisimilitude.
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It has everything to do with the need to drop your expectations that Pathfinder gameplay should mimic reality, though. That ship has long sailed.
I think people are confusing mimicking reality and having logical flow.
Barbars swinging their sword faster because they are channeling a beast power to hit a creature with 3 different things at once does not follow. If it was instead being able to pounce with both claws and a bite (that they can get) that would make more sense.
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Honestly monks "can" get something similar, one of the styles allows you to move half your speed as a swift action towards someone that you hit last turn with an unarmed attack. Some ways slightly more versatile, a lot of ways, a lot less.
Its a neat style feat, and is open to other classes, but it kinda lacks because it requires your enemy to move about 15-20ft away from you, unless you have monk fast movement which a lot of the good archetypes give up. Of course, it makes up for it for monks by letting them Power Attack with no attack penalty in exchange for AC penalty.
Look at his posts. He's not just hating on pounce. He hates martials doing anything unrealistic.
Making sense != realistic
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I'm gonna add to the "Barbarians get ridiculous stuff *cough*pounce*cough* that I wish Beast Totem only applied to natural attacks since it makes more since. I also wish that the Base Attack Bonus rules allowed you to move and full attack with an attack roll penalty and/or concealment, and that Pounce got rid of this penalty/concealment.
I think pounce is too much but to move and just one attack is too few. Martials should have an inherent mechanics to bypass that problem.
Okay, I can accept Beast Totem being specifically for natural attack barbs. It makes sense. You need something for manufactured weapons though because otherwise there's very little reason to use manufactured weapons over natural attacks except for flavor. Maybe instead martials could have some sort of ability where they focus all of their might into a single strike. A Barbarian could come in with a leaping bound and smash down on a foe with their weapon.
basically what i want is for martials to have vital strike but good
I think pounce is too much but more and just one attack is too few. Martiasl shouwld have an inherent mechanics to bypass that problem.
Yeah. As a rogue I normally start combat right next to the enemy (surprise round starts with me stabbing them).
Whatever it is should probably be tied into BAB. Vital strike for the fighter isn't all that bad. The extra 21 damage is pretty nice.
Mythics are pretty "pounce" happy, but it makes sense and is "balanced" with other mythic options *couch* mythic vital strike *cough*
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Okay, I can accept Beast Totem being specifically for natural attack barbs. It makes sense. You need something for manufactured weapons though because otherwise there's very little reason to use manufactured weapons over natural attacks except for flavor. Maybe instead martials could have some sort of ability where they focus all of their might into a single strike. A Barbarian could come in with a leaping bound and smash down on a foe with their weapon.
basically what i want is for martials to have vital strike but good
Well, manufactured weapons get more attacks and are cheaper to enhance, and require less investment. I'd personally like to see archetypes for a bunch of different classes focused on hitting once and still doing plenty of damage.
Okay, I can accept Beast Totem being specifically for natural attack barbs. It makes sense. You need something for manufactured weapons though because otherwise there's very little reason to use manufactured weapons over natural attacks except for flavor. Maybe instead martials could have some sort of ability where they focus all of their might into a single strike. A Barbarian could come in with a leaping bound and smash down on a foe with their weapon.
basically what i want is for martials to have vital strike but good
Well, manufactured weapons get more attacks and are cheaper to enhance, and require less investment. I'd personally like to see archetypes for a bunch of different classes focused on hitting once and still doing plenty of damage.
Or hitting once and add diferent kind of things to that hit, like hamatula strike or felling smash. It woudl be great if the options do not get limited to damage.
I think pounce is too much but to move and just one attack is too few.
I pretty much agree with both parts of this assertion.
I just haven't settled on exactly what the ideal solution is that functions reasonably well at all post-6th levels.
I think pounce is too much but to move and just one attack is too few.I pretty much agree with both parts of this assertion.
I just haven't settled on exactly what the ideal solution is that functions reasonably well at all post-6th levels.
Brain storming different ideas:
-Trade 1 point of BAB for 5ft of movement up to your normal speedor
-Everyone gets vital strike for free with BAB. Also, allow ability mod to also multiply
or
-You can trade your first attack in a full attack for a move action, first two attacks for TWF and flurry. Doesn't work with natural weapons.
A random and funny but totally WTF? fact about pounce is that you can move and full attack as a santard action ...if you are slowered.
Really, Barbarians shouldn't get pounce unless everybody gets pounce-like options. That alone makes Barbarians unbalanced. I wouldn't care all that much if say, Fighters and Monks and everybody else could do something similar, It would simply be a feature of "warrior types".
The current situation is ridiculous though.
I REALLY don't want my PCs getting pounced by angry brutes.
Thematically I don't understand barbar pounce. I understand lion pounce, it jump and attacks with both claws and a bite at once. Barbars just jump forward and swing 3-5 times in an instant. How? Cause they are angry!
Martial weapon pounce is actually a fairly common trope really.
Have you ever seen a samurai film where the protagonist leaps at or charges past/through his opponent, slashing multiple times at the same instant? Often rather than film the cuts themselves, they show a black screen with several flashes of silver, then the picture comes back and shows said victim falling with more than one (sometimes WAY more than one) cuts on his body or falling into multiple pieces.
The same technique would work for Partial Charges as well, because the whole point of the technique is delivering multiple strikes in the time-span of one stroke.
it is more like the game rules of moving and therefore only attacking once is not part of popular fiction than Martial weapon pounce is a trope. I would say.
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On a completely separate topic, I continue to be astonished that Crane Wing took such a big hit and greater beast totem pouncing continues along it's merry way unmolested.I think it has a lot to do with how late Greater Beast Totem comes? People are going to see Crane Wing Doing Things from essentially the beginning of the game, while GBT is almost a capstone for many campaigns especially in (sigh) PFS.
I'm pretty happy it isn't nerfed really. GBT doesn't need to be weaker, it needs to be used as a benchmark for other martial abilities. GBT is what all martial 10th level abilities should aspire to be as strong as.
I more or less agree with you. I believe it would be better to give other melee classes some ability to move and full attack rather than take away the barbarian's ability to do so. But that said, when beast totem barbarians and mounted characters with mounted skirmish (which is harder to make use of in many situations) are the only melee classes able to move and full attack routinely, it does make greater beast totem stick out as very powerful. Make sense?
You are likewise correct that Crane Wing is a lot more visible early on than greater beast totem. Just a minor tirade from my view that good defensive options keep getting pounded down, but the excellent "face murdering" goodness like greater beast totem, clustered shots, raging brutality, ect. are seen as totally balanced in comparison by the designers.
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I'm gonna add to the "Barbarians get ridiculous stuff *cough*pounce*cough* that I wish Beast Totem only applied to natural attacks since it makes more sense. ***
Agreed. I think 90% of the "Barbarian's are OP!" stuff would go out the window if Beast Totem Pounce applied specifically to natural attacks instead of letting a guy hurl himself forward and swing his greatsword or thrust with his lance 4 times. Having claws and a bestial nature shouldn't help you swing a sword faster.
I wholeheartly agree. I think the idea of pounce was that the barbarian jumps in and swings with his natural weapons. Not with any man-made.
As very often great idea, minor problems with the execution.
Paizo made a lot of efforts to bring a level of fairness to the game.
Sometimes accidents happen.
Also people who love powergaming bend every rule to their favor.
Play RAI and you find every mayor hiccup is gone, be it Summoner or barbarian with the beast totem. Also I repeat it again. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MIN-MAX and SUPEROPTIMICE! There are a few of challenging fights but still you DO NOT HAVE TO!
I'm gonna add to the "Barbarians get ridiculous stuff *cough*pounce*cough* that I wish Beast Totem only applied to natural attacks since it makes more sense. ***Agreed. I think 90% of the "Barbarian's are OP!" stuff would go out the window if Beast Totem Pounce applied specifically to natural attacks instead of letting a guy hurl himself forward and swing his greatsword or thrust with his lance 4 times. Having claws and a bestial nature shouldn't help you swing a sword faster.
Well. as strong as pounce is, I woudl say that the + "insert huge number here" bonus to all saves from superstitions + human favored bonus is stronger.
But a double edged sword, preventing helpful buffs and healing.
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On a completely separate topic, I continue to be astonished that Crane Wing took such a big hit and greater beast totem pouncing continues along it's merry way unmolested.I think it has a lot to do with how late Greater Beast Totem comes? People are going to see Crane Wing Doing Things from essentially the beginning of the game, while GBT is almost a capstone for many campaigns especially in (sigh) PFS.
I'm pretty happy it isn't nerfed really. GBT doesn't need to be weaker, it needs to be used as a benchmark for other martial abilities. GBT is what all martial 10th level abilities should aspire to be as strong as.
Absolutely this. A thousand times this. Nerfing Crane Wing was the absolute wrong way to go. Crane Wing was nerfed because it was the only feat like that- there need to be more feats like that for Martials, not fewer.
Perhaps pounce in general should only apply to natural attacks.
Synthesist Summoners would laugh even harder.
Fortunately they're already on the weaker end of the Summoner spectrum, so no worries there.Perhaps pounce in general should only apply to natural attacks.Synthesist Summoners would laugh even harder.
The weaker end of the Summoner spectrum is the stronger end of the martial spectrum.
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The weaker end of the Summoner spectrum is the stronger end of the martial spectrum.Fortunately they're already on the weaker end of the Summoner spectrum, so no worries there.Perhaps pounce in general should only apply to natural attacks.Synthesist Summoners would laugh even harder.
Which definitely serves to reinforce the idea that Barbarians are not OP, though they do have options that are pretty superior to the same level options of their martial counterparts.