OK I'm just going to say it. Barbarians are unbalanced.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ashiel wrote:

+5 celestial armor = +11 armor

+5 heavy shield = +7 shield
+5 ring of protection = +5 deflection
+5 amulet of natural armor = +5 natural armor
-2 Rage

vs

+5 mithral full plate armor = +14 armor
+5 heavy shield = +7 shield
+5 ring of protection = +5 deflection
+5 amulet of natural armor = +5 natural armor
Net gain +5 AC

HOWEVER the barbarian gets...
DR 8/-. +7 on saves vs Magic. Re-roll a failed Will save. Uncanny Dodge (cannot be flat-footed, can make AoOs when surprised, benefits vs invisible foes, blinded isn't nearly as bad, can walk around taking a total defense for a +6 dodge bonus on the surprise round), Trap Sense (+6 vs traps, which if placed intelligently are like an extra enemy in an encounter), Improved Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked). +4 on Will saves and +8 vs Enchantment effects.

I do not know why the comparision asumes level 20, or something. But just for the record the DPR of the level 20 fighter is WAY ahead of the barbarian. That 5 poins in diference in AC begins more or less at level 4 where it matter a lot and remains for the rest of the game, do not forget that either. And at that level the fighter also have 5/- DR.

I would suggest level 10, 20 PB, no traits (core), just core magic items.


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Isn't Ashiel talking about rage powers other than what's considered the standard optimal path an indication that the Barbarian is a well-designed class? The Barbarian has options! You can do a lot of different things with a Barbarian, you don't have to stick to the optimal option to be viable.

With a Fighter, you can, uh... Well, you can go Lore Warden and trip things with polearms. The Lore Warden is pretty solid, at least until you fight things that Paizo has decided are immune to getting knocked on the ground.


I actually did a fighter/barbarian comparison in a different thread and the barbarian won dpr every time


Arachnofiend wrote:

Isn't Ashiel talking about rage powers other than what's considered the standard optimal path an indication that the Barbarian is a well-designed class? The Barbarian has options! You can do a lot of different things with a Barbarian, you don't have to stick to the optimal option to be viable.

A barbarian without hte main rage power is way weaker, tehre is no even poitn of comparison. Not sure how is that good desing.


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And again, I place more value on saving throws, uncanny dodge, and similar effects. I find they make a more well-rounded martial character. I'd rather play a character that's not invalidated by a simple spell. I'm willing to give up a little AC in exchange for improved tactical capability and resiliency.

I also don't play 20 PB. I play standard 15. I don't have time to build a 10th level barbarian from scratch (some of my online players are chomping at the bit for me to run a side-thing for them) but here.

15 PB: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7; +1 Str 4th, +1 Str 8th
10th Level Human Barbarian
HD: 10d12+30 (100.5 HP)
BAB: +10 Melee +18 (+20 raging) Ranged +14
Fort: +12 (+4 vs magic)
Ref: +10 (+4 vs magic)
Will: +9 (+4 vs magic)
Skill Points: 3 / level

Feats
1. Lightning Reflexes
B. Iron Will
3. Power Attack
5. Blind-Fight
7. Deadly Aim
9. Step-Up

Rage Powers
2. Superstition
4. No Escape
6. Roused Anger
8. Clear Mind
10. Improved Damage Reduction

Other Abilities
- Uncanny Dodge (no flat footed)
- Trap Sense (+3 vs Traps)
- Improved Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked)
- DR 3/-

Magic Items (62,000 gp)
- +2 Strength item (4,000 gp)
- +2 Constitution item (4,000 gp)
- +3 Resistance Item (9,000 gp)
- +2 deflection item (8,000 gp)
- +2 natural item (8,000 gp)
- +2 melee weapon (8,000 gp)
- +2 ranged weapon (8,000 gp)
- +3 armor (9,000 gp)
- 4,000 gp additional gear


Arachnofiend wrote:

Isn't Ashiel talking about rage powers other than what's considered the standard optimal path an indication that the Barbarian is a well-designed class? The Barbarian has options! You can do a lot of different things with a Barbarian, you don't have to stick to the optimal option to be viable.

With a Fighter, you can, uh... Well, you can go Lore Warden and trip things with polearms. The Lore Warden is pretty solid, at least until you fight things that Paizo has decided are immune to getting knocked on the ground.

This, so much this.

Quote:
A barbarian without hte main rage power is way weaker, tehre is no even poitn of comparison. Not sure how is that good desing.

One could say the same about any class. Bards without saving finale are really selling themselves short for example.

Though on the Fighter vs Barbarian in core thing, one thing sticks out to me in a big way. Weapon Specialization blows monkey chunks, and Weapon Training is weaksauce without gloves of dueling. I was recently looking through what core-only feats I'd choose for a Fighter (odd, I know) and realized I couldn't even make a 20th level build without wasting a lot of feats on stuff I didn't want, didn't need, weren't useful, or would be utterly useless later on in the game.

Liberty's Edge

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Ssalarn wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you really arguing that it is against the theme of a line of Rage Powers titled "Beast Totem", which give natural attacks and an ability normally reserved for specific types of monsters, to use natural weapon builds?

You realize that's a bit of a ridiculous statement right?

Allow me to clarify my statement:

If you restrict Greater Beast Totem to natural weapons...natural weapons plus pounce are superior enough to a greatsword without pounce that they will get rid of the greatsword, not the pouncing. All optimal Barbarians will then be natural weapon users, which seems against the flavor of a class who's iconic uses a giant sword.

Or to put it another way, it's relatively in-theme for Beast Totem, but completely out of theme for the class as a whole to have to do that.

Ssalarn wrote:
I can promise you that the guy who wrote that line of powers assumed you would be using the claws he gave you, not ignoring them to grab a greatsword.

Why? Kitsune Pounce is a thing since then, and it doesn't add in any such requirement...

Ssalarn wrote:
Dropping manufactured weapons from Pounce puts the barbarian in a position where he needs to use something like BWoMS or AoMF to enchant his natural attacks, balancing things there, and removes some of the stupid stuff going on right, like mounted RAGELANCEPOUNCE. It would go a lllllooooooooonnnnggg way towards removing one of the only two issues that crop up with Barbarians seeming OP.

An AoMF isn't that big a deal as levels rise. Especially not for Barbarians, who can grab a Furious one for 4k and get a what's effectively a +2 weapon out of it.

And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?


Ashiel wrote:
And again, I place more value on saving throws, uncanny dodge, and similar effects. I find they make a more well-rounded martial character. I'd rather play a character that's not invalidated by a simple spell. I'm willing to give up a little AC in exchange for improved tactical capability and resiliency.

About this statement:

a) There is another simple tactic that can take the barbarian out of the fight. Raw hit point damage. The barb you posted have not raging vitality and with superstitions he could just die without the heal form the party.

b) There are a lot of attacks that have rider effects. Attack + grapple, attack + poison, attack + disease, etc. The barbarian have better saves agaisnt some of them, but The fighter Better Ac could just mean the fighter not to make the save (if allowed).

===================

About the build:

Seems fine, I would liek to see the AC, CMB, CMD, the totall melee/ranged attack routine, etc.

here is my fighter

10th Level Human fighter
15 PB initial stats:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 15 , Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7; floating stat str, +1 Str 4th, +1 Str 8th

Final stats

Str 20, Dex 14, Con 17 , Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7;

HD: 10d10+40 (99 HP)
AC: 29
CMD: 29
CMB: +15
Fort: +13
Ref: +10
Will: +10
Skill Points: 2 / level
Feats
1. Lightning Reflexes
1. Iron Will
1. Quick draw
3. Power Attack
4. Point blank shot
5. Blind-Fight
6. dodge
7. Rapid shot
8. Manyshot
9. Improved critical (falchion)
10. Lunge

Other Abilities
Armor training 2
Weapon training 2 (heavy blades, Bows)
Bravery 3
Magic Items (62,000 gp)
- +2 Strength item (4,000 gp)
- +2 Constitution item (4,000 gp)
- +3 Resistance Item (9,000 gp)
- +2 deflection item (8,000 gp)
- +2 natural item (8,000 gp)
- +2 melee weapon (8,000 gp)
- +2 ranged weapon (8,000 gp)
- +3 full plate (10,500 gp)

Attack routine
Melee
+2 Falchion: +10+5+2+2-3= +16/+11 (2d4+20, 15-20/x2)

Ranged
+2 longbow: +10+2+1= +11/+11/+6 (1d8+8* 20/x3)

*Double damage on the first hit.


Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
A barbarian without hte main rage power is way weaker, tehre is no even poitn of comparison. Not sure how is that good desing.

One could say the same about any class. Bards without saving finale are really selling themselves short for example.

True, but in my opinion the gap in the barbarian builds is the bigger among martials.


Ilja wrote:
Synthesists have much, much better saves.

I used to think so too until I reread the Synthesist closely. You don't actually get to use the Eidolon's saves.

Also not directly related to what you were saying Ilja, but still relevant: Eidolon Anchoring Harness. Dismissal and even its death can't keep your Eidolon away.


chaoseffect wrote:

I used to think so too until I reread the Synthesist closely. You don't actually get to use the Eidolon's saves.

Also not directly related to what you were saying Ilja, but still relevant: Eidolon Anchoring Harness. Dismissal and even its death can't keep your Eidolon away.

Synthesists get Shielded Meld at 4th level and Greater Shielded Meld at 12th level, which grant a +2 and +4 bonus to all saves.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?

The recent re-errata of how mounted charges work brought it back.

Liberty's Edge

Chengar Qordath wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?
The recent re-errata of how mounted charges work brought it back.

Not really. You still only deal double damage on your first attack. It's nice, but not the only viable strategy by any means.


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Nicos wrote:
a) There is another simple tactic that can take the barbarian out of the fight. Raw hit point damage. The barb you posted have not raging vitality and with superstitions he could just die without the heal form the party.

That's a fair concern. Let's have a look.

In my example my Barbarian would have a 26 AC while raging. A Glabrezu is 3 CRs above our level. It has a 75% chance of hitting with its attacks vs the Barbarian and a 60% chance to hit your Fighter. So let's crunch the DPR a little bit...

Pincers DPR 24 (Barbarian) / 22.8 (Fighter)
Claws DPR 15.75 (Barbarian) / 16.2 (Fighter)
Bite DPR 8.625 (Barbarian) / 8.7 (Fighter)
Total DPR 48.375 / 47.7

The difference is essentially nill. If I really wanted, I could have replaced Step-Up with Extra Rage Power (Improved Damage Reduction) which would have tipped it in Barbarian favor, but I have +1 Hp/HD over the Fighter with an identical Constitution so I'm not super worried about it.

Meanwhile, during surprise rounds my Barbarian has a +6 dodge bonus to her AC because of Uncanny Dodge. When just wandering around she can be using a total defense as a standard action (stacks with the +3 vs traps with trap sense), which means if she is ambushed or attacked from surprise her AC is both full-power with an extra +30% evasion.

Also can't be flanked, that's pretty cool.

Quote:
b) There are a lot of attacks that have rider effects. Attack + grapple, attack + poison, attack + disease, etc. The barbarian have better saves agaisnt some of them, but The fighter Better Ac could just mean the fighter not to make the save (if allowed).

Agreed here. But I just don't think the difference is meaningful enough honestly. "The occasional rider effect that most likely targets your strongest save or requires your enemy to be right where you want them, in your face" doesn't equal "Failing a save vs hold person / aura of fear / fear / dominate person / charm monster / suggestion / command / deep slumber / vampire dominate / insert random SLA here" on my list of priorities. This could just be a matter of what we see as the bigger threat. In my opinion there are far more threats to your ability to contribute to the game in the form of magical effects.

If I get a disease? Deal with it. If I get hit with magic jar then I'm out of the fight and my party has to deal with ME. >_>

Other Things I Noticed...
Your Fighter has +1 HP / level more than your statistics suggested. I presume this would be due to choosing Fighter as your favored class. Mine doesn't. I didn't include any favored class options at all (neither skill point nor HP) because honestly it's optional and I wasn't really worried about it.

But if I put mine in HP then I have another +10 HP over the Fighter and 2 more skill points per level. If I put it into skills, I'm sitting at better HP and 5/skill points per level.

That Said...
The Fighter has better ranged attacking options (which isn't surprising). Definitely a better archer. I traded archery competency for better saving throws (again this is more of a priority thing I think). My barbarian would only be at around 1d8+10 damage (+6 str mod, +2 magic mod) but would lack Rapid and Manyshot (Deadly Aim brings it to 1d8+16 with a +11/+6 to hit, but that's mostly for if my to-hit is buffed with stuff like haste).

Ultimately...
It seems to come down to preference. I'd take the Barbarian any day of the week because I prefer the wider assortment of defensive options that they have, unique combat opportunities (like No Escape), more skill points (and better association of skills), and more abilities that help with general adventure and ambush situations (Perception class skill, Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense).

At 1st-10th Rage adds +2/+3 to hit and damage which is plenty for me to be happy with DPR (+20/+15 to hit, 1d8+14/19-20 with a longsword, or 1d8+21 with Power Attack). At 11th level it upgrades to +3/+4.

In general I just feel more well rounded.


Aratrok wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:

I used to think so too until I reread the Synthesist closely. You don't actually get to use the Eidolon's saves.

Also not directly related to what you were saying Ilja, but still relevant: Eidolon Anchoring Harness. Dismissal and even its death can't keep your Eidolon away.

Synthesists get Shielded Meld at 4th level and Greater Shielded Meld at 12th level, which grant a +2 and +4 bonus to all saves.

True; perhaps I misread that post because I thought he was saying Synthesist got to use the base saves of the Eidolon instead of the Summoners. I don't feel like digging to check, but if that wasn't the case I apologize.


Ashiel wrote:
It has a 75% chance of hitting with its attacks vs the Barbarian and a 60% chance to hit your Fighter.

Wait here, those percentages seems odd.


I think you have to correct some numbers, but in the meantime

Ashiel wrote:

Ultimately...

It seems to come down to preference. I'd take the Barbarian any day of the week because I prefer the wider assortment of defensive options that they have, unique combat opportunities (like No Escape), more skill points (and better association of skills), and more abilities that help with general adventure and ambush situations (Perception class skill, Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense).

THe fighter also have the options to charge/move + and attack and do not provoke AoO from creatures with 10 reach.

I would really take lunge with the barbarian. The extra reach and strengh surge open the path for combat maneuvers.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:

I think you have to correct some numbers, but in the meantime

Ashiel wrote:

Ultimately...

It seems to come down to preference. I'd take the Barbarian any day of the week because I prefer the wider assortment of defensive options that they have, unique combat opportunities (like No Escape), more skill points (and better association of skills), and more abilities that help with general adventure and ambush situations (Perception class skill, Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense).

THe fighter also have the options to charge/move + and attack and do not provoke AoO from creatures with 10 reach.

I would really take lunge with the barbarian. The extra reach and strengh surge open the path for combat maneuvers.

That's fair and a good idea. There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's. :P


I guess this is what you do with a lore warden?

No idea of correct:

Lore Warden
Male Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 9/Monk (Maneuver Master) 1
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 102 (9d10+1d8+39)
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +12 (+2 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 dueling guisarme +20/+15 (2d4+12/×3) and
gauntlet (from armor) +14/+9 (1d3+5) and
unarmed strike +14/+9 (1d6+5)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+9/×3)
Special Attacks stunning fist (3/day, DC 16), weapon trainings (bows +3, pole arms +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +20 (+24 dirty trick, +22 disarm, +24 trip); CMD 32 (34 vs. dirty trick, 38 vs. disarm, 36 vs. sunder, 34 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Trip, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Dirty Trick, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (guisarme)
Traits bred for war (shoanti), indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +9, Intimidate -1, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Perception +14, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages Common, Elven
SQ flurry of maneuvers, know thy enemy, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike
Other Gear +1 mithral kikko armor, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +1 dueling guisarme, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +3, gloves of dueling, ring of protection +1, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Flurry of Maneuvers (1 maneuver, -2) (Ex) At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in pl
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Greater Dirty Trick Dirty Trick penalty lasts 1d4 rds, +1 per 5 over CMD and takes a standard action to remove.
Greater Trip Foes you trip provoke AoO when they are knocked prone.
Improved Dirty Trick You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex) Knowledge check vs 1 foe to gain +2 to att & weapon dam for encounter.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Dirty Trick May perform a dirty trick in place of your first melee attack.
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms

His CMB is wrong unfortunately, it is actually +8 to all of those because he uses the guisarme, so trip is +32, dirty trick is +32, and Disarm is +30(4 weapon training, 2 from dueling enhancement, 1 weapon focus, 1 enhancement bonus)

On a full attack against the glabrezu he blinds and trips it, or if it flies he can blind and sicken it for 1d4 rounds or more(Flurry of manuevers + quick dirty trick).

His only problem is that his ac is TERRIBLE, g!!$#!n, I feel like blowing feats on heavy armor prof or something


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
It has a 75% chance of hitting with its attacks vs the Barbarian and a 60% chance to hit your Fighter.
Wait here, those percentages seems odd.

You're right. I made a mistake. There's only a 70% chance of hitting the Barbarian (I was off by 1 on the d20) and a 55% vs the Fighter. That adjusts the DPR as follows.

Pincers 22.4 (barbarian) / 20.9 (Fighter)
Claws 14.7 (barbarian) / 14.85 (Fighter)
Bite 8.05 (barbarian) / 7.975 (Fighter)
Total 45.15 (barbarian) / 43.725 (Fighter)

So the barbarian takes 1.425 more DPR per round from full-attacks than the Fighter. Meanwhile, the Barbarian has a 20% better chance to save vs the creature's SLAs like chaos hammer, confusion, reverse gravity, or unholy blight assuming equal ability scores. With our specific ones it's a +15% chance in Fort/Will, but that is due to our ability score priorities rather than class features (I opted for a bit more Strength, but you went for a higher Wis and Con).

Still favoring the Barbarian in this case. Seems like a safer bet than the lawn ornament *cough* I mean Fighter. :P


I am counting a diference of 6, I am missing something?

And what about monsters with less attacks but stronger attacks? for example two hill giants

greatclub +12/+7 (2d8+16)


Ashiel wrote:
So the barbarian takes 1.425 more DPR per round from full-attacks than the Fighter. Meanwhile, the Barbarian has a 20% better chance to save vs the creature's SLAs like chaos hammer, confusion, reverse gravity, or unholy blight assuming equal ability scores.

note that reverse gravity have no save, and the fighter better use of bows give him a little edge in that case.


Quote:
I am counting a diference of 6, I am missing something?

Gimme a sec. It's really late here so bear with me. >_>

You're right. I counted the armor enhancement twice for some reason. Trying to figure out why that was. Oh grief. Okay, one sec, lemme re-calculate again. (>_<)

Pincers 28.8 (barbarian) / 20.9 (Fighter)
Claws 18.9 (barbarian) / 14.85 (Fighter)
Bite 10.35 (barbarian) / 7.975 (Fighter)
Total 58.05 (barbarian) / 43.725 (Fighter)
Okay, so a 14.325 DPR difference. That's much better. :P

Quote:

And what about monsters with less attacks but stronger attacks? for example two hill giants

greatclub +12/+7 (2d8+16)

2 Giants DPR 33 (barbarian) / 25 (fighter, flanked) / 12.5 (fighter, not flanked)


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
So the barbarian takes 1.425 more DPR per round from full-attacks than the Fighter. Meanwhile, the Barbarian has a 20% better chance to save vs the creature's SLAs like chaos hammer, confusion, reverse gravity, or unholy blight assuming equal ability scores.
note that reverse gravity have no save, and the fighter better use of bows give him a little edge in that case.

Well it lists a DC 22 save (though that's to grab onto something if it's available). The point is ultimately that failing saves is a bad thing. :P


So yes, the barbarian might be a bit unbalanced, but does it really matter? Some people enjoy the challenge of coaxing something good out of it anyway. If that's not your cup of tea, there's lots of other things to play.


That said, all these math mistakes are a good indication that I am well past my need for some sleep. Have fun guys. :)


If you want to play a tank this guy seems pretty tanky:

Barb Tank:

Barbarian Tank
Human Barbarian (Armored Hulk) 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 19, flat-footed 31 (+12 armor, +3 shield, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 145 (10d12+70)
Fort +17, Ref +7 (+1 against trample attacks), Will +10; +7 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
DR 2/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 35 ft.
Melee +1 furious heavy pick +18/+13 (1d6+17/×4) and
2 claws +10 (1d8+7/×3)
Special Attacks pounce, rage (26 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, ghost rager, guarded stance +2, spell sunder, superstition +7, witch hunter)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 26, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +15 (+16 overrun); CMD 30 (31 vs. overrun)
Feats Extra Rage Power, Extra Rage Power, Extra Rage Power, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +7, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perception +14, Survival +9, Swim +7
Languages Common
SQ indomitable stance, resilience of steel, tireless rage
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier; Other Gear +3 full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 furious heavy pick, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of physical might (str & con +2), cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Ghost Rager (Su) While raging, the barbarian deals normal damage to incorporeal creatures even when using nonmagical weapons. She also gains a morale bonus to touch AC equal to her saving throw bonus from her superstition rage power. A barbarian must have the superst
Guarded Stance +2 (7 rds) (Ex) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC vs. melee attacks while raging.
Indomitable Stance (Ex) +1 to Reflex vs trample & to hit, dam, and AC vs charging foe.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Resilience of Steel +3 (Ex) Gain bonus to AC vs a foe's critical confirmation rolls.
Spell Sunder (Su) Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's
Superstition +7 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Witch Hunter (+3) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

AC 32, 34 if rolling dodge is on, +3 vs crits, 35 move speed, and a tough ac of 26 vs incorporeal sources!

To me armored hulk seems pretty good since I feel like uncanny dodge and trap sense are terrible, but that is me. If I was levelling this guy more, I would add intimidating prowess and cornugon smash to add some debuffing, and strength surge so he can spell sunder things no problem


chaoseffect wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Synthesists have much, much better saves.

I used to think so too until I reread the Synthesist closely. You don't actually get to use the Eidolon's saves.

Also not directly related to what you were saying Ilja, but still relevant: Eidolon Anchoring Harness. Dismissal and even its death can't keep your Eidolon away.

You don't get the Eidolon's base saves, but you get your own strong base will save (the most important save for a summoner), can pump your Wis into ridiculousness, don't have to choose between a cloak for you or for the eidolon, and get to use the eidolon's decent Con and good Dex.

See the example at 10th level I made.
Quadroped Eidolon who put level point in Con, with Iron Will and a Cloak +3 and a Belt of Perfection Might (Str/Con) +2.
= Fort +12 / Ref +13 / Will +7
Summoner, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 10,
= Fort +5 / Ref +5 / Will +7, +2 if it's within reach of the eidolon, but being close to the eidolon makes them extremely vulnerable to area attacks like Glitterdust.

Since smart enemies target the weakest save when it's obvious (as in the case of the eidolon), having good fort and ref doesn't help it that much against most enemies actively trying to use spells against it. It's extremely weak against dismissal; a 7th level cleric with 16 Wis (that is, a CR 6 enemy for a level 10 character) will have nearly a 50/50 to dismiss it.

Now, compare to a synthesist:
Eidolon is the same stats, Summoner has Dex 7 / Con 10 / Wis 16, Summoner has the cloak and the belt. Shielded Meld adds +2. So all saves gets +3 (cloak) +2 (meld) = +5, plus base and ability mod.
= Fort +11 / Ref +12 / Will +15

That is a lot more solid saves, without any obvious weak spots at all. Sure, the Fort/Ref is ever so slightly lower than those of the synth - but enemies aren't stupid enough to cast Entangle on a huge frakkin' monstrosity anyway.

EDIT: Also, yeah, the anchoring harness. It's useful, but it does take the body slot which can be a pretty big deal, especially when both characters share slots.


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Ashiel wrote:


2 Giants DPR 33 (barbarian) / 25 (fighter, flanked) / 12.5 (fighter, not flanked)

It seems to be a good diference. BEsides the Skills digference (wich was terrible desing), I think fighter and barbarians where more or less balanced against each other in Core. The strongerst martial was probably the paladin.


Edition bloat tb expected, some good some not good. Little to no fighter love/ not good.


DrDeth wrote:
Justin Sane wrote:

DM: Okay guys, we're going for a high-fantasy adventure, with dragon-slaying, plane-hopping, the works. Have you picked your characters?

Player: Yeah, I'm going to play a frail old man with a sword.
Named Cohen.

"In a proffession with an extremely high mortality rating - Barbarian Warlord - Cohen has lived long enough to become an octogenary. Think about that".

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:


And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?

Mounted RAGELANCEPOUNCE was FAQ'd back into existence. Or did you miss that?


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Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


2 Giants DPR 33 (barbarian) / 25 (fighter, flanked) / 12.5 (fighter, not flanked)
It seems to be a good diference. BEsides the Skills digference (wich was terrible desing), I think fighter and barbarians where more or less balanced against each other in Core. The strongerst martial was probably the paladin.

Thing is, I'd still take the barbarian any day of the week. Barbarians innately have more HP than Fighters, and get 2*level more HP when raging (3*level at 11th, and 4*level at 20th). The "oh but your barbarian might die" thing is a myth because if you lose enough HP to die from that, you already took more HP damage than your HP+Con score (which means you would have been dead anyway so the HP bought you an extra round or two to get healed up again).

Meanwhile, HP damage between fights is easy to fix. Even with superstitious active you can still be healed. Often on the cheap (a wand of cure light wounds is 750 gp in core and heals around 250 HP).

If you're soaking damage in combat you're doing your job. That shows that you're being attacked and your *insert other class* isn't. You're not doing your job if you are a lawn ornament. When you've got 130 HP, you can stand to take some damage. When that succubus casts dominate person you can not stand to fail that save.

The funny thing is, at very low levels the AC difference between Fighter and Barbarian is effectively non-existent (from 1st-6th level breastplate is still the best armor for anyone who wants 30 ft.+ movement speed), and at high levels AC matters less and less as other forms of defenses are kicking in (such as DR, miss %, immunities, etc). Until Fighter gets Weapon Specialization/Weapon Training, the Barbarian doesn't even have to be raging to match him in combat prowess.

At high levels it's not even a thing anymore. For example, using what is IMHO the scariest CR 20 bestiary monster the Pit Fiend as an example, both the Fighter and Barbarian will rock his socks in martial combat. His attack bonuses aren't great enough to get stellar hit % on either of them (both will have ACs of 46+, and probably displacement). However, when he starts yanking people's souls out with his trap the soul SLA, I'm going to be appreciating that my defenses consist of more than a bit more armor class.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?
The recent re-errata of how mounted charges work brought it back.
Not really. You still only deal double damage on your first attack. It's nice, but not the only viable strategy by any means.

The fact that the Barbarian can only deal up to twice as much damage on a mounted charge instead of 4 times as much is not an argument in the barbarian's favor.

I think the best option would be to give Pounce-like mechanics to other martial classes (I proposed a feat line that would do it in one of these threads...). Barring that, if anyone even wants to begin to argue that the barbarian is balanced to the Fighter, Beast Totem Pounce should really be a natural attack specific ability. I won't even touch your "AoMF isn't a balancing factor" other than to point you to the fact that there are literally thousands of posts contesting that statement. You surrended a common slot used for AC boosts, it's more expensive to enchant than the greatsword, the claws benefit less from abilities that rely on critical hits for delivery(and deliver less per critical hit), and the character is capped to the number of natural attacks he can get and their quality, meaning that if he wants to take feats like Improved Critical to have anything other than a 20 x2 crit for his natural weapons, he has to spend more resources.

As to the writer thinking it was going to apply to natural attacks: he gave natural attacks as part of the ability that cannot be used in conjunction with a two-handed manufactured weapon (first big clue), and the FAQ specifying that Pounce worked with manufactured weapons didn't exist yet. So yeah, pretty sure that Beast Totem was written by a guy who thought it was going to be used with natural weapons.

As to the "out of theme" statement... The Iconic barbarian doesn't have Beast Totem, nor is she by any stretch of the imagination the only barbarian trope someone might want to emulate in play. Beast Totem was likely meant to simulate the Norse hammrammr or "shapestrong" berserkers, who have occasionally been interpreted as taking on the forms of animals and who have been recreated in various fashions on multiple occasions throughout the history of D&D and Pathfinder.


Ashiel wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


2 Giants DPR 33 (barbarian) / 25 (fighter, flanked) / 12.5 (fighter, not flanked)
It seems to be a good diference. BEsides the Skills digference (wich was terrible desing), I think fighter and barbarians where more or less balanced against each other in Core. The strongerst martial was probably the paladin.

Thing is, I'd still take the barbarian any day of the week. Barbarians innately have more HP than Fighters, and get 2*level more HP when raging (3*level at 11th, and 4*level at 20th). The "oh but your barbarian might die" thing is a myth because if you lose enough HP to die from that, you already took more HP damage than your HP+Con score (which means you would have been dead anyway so the HP bought you an extra round or two to get healed up again).

Meanwhile, HP damage between fights is easy to fix. Even with superstitious active you can still be healed. Often on the cheap (a wand of cure light wounds is 750 gp in core and heals around 250 HP).

Then the barbarian is a sponge that needs more party resources. It is not that a repeated argument against the fighter? that he need a lot of resources but do not bring any? because your barbarian does not bring any resources to the party (besides 1 more skill point) and needs more and more.

Adn at the low levels the barbarian still have the -2 to saves, and do not have the big bonus to saves, So no advantage here.


Ashiel wrote:
At high levels it's not even a thing anymore. For example, using what is IMHO the scariest CR 20 bestiary monster the Pit Fiend as an example, both the Fighter and Barbarian will rock his socks in martial combat. His attack bonuses aren't great enough to get stellar hit % on either of them (both will have ACs of 46+, and probably displacement). However, when he starts yanking people's souls out with his trap the soul SLA, I'm going to be appreciating that my defenses consist of more than a bit more armor class.

But you will not appreciate that the party can not buff you. In core superstition is not that powerful. What make superstition powerful is that the barbarian can patch all his other weakness using non core material so he is not so dependent of party buff.


Ssalarn wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
You guys do realize it doesn't even need to be Synthesist Summoner right? The baseline summoner still brings a beastly Eidolon to the table who pounces like a Tiger on steroids.

That's why I noted that the Synthesist was actually at the weaker end of the Summoner spectrum. He's basically the training wheels version of the Summoner (or would be were it not for the pages of FAQs a new player would have to slog through to actually get it right).

...

In play, he's the training wheels version of the Summoner. He'll get you from point A to point B while protecting you from small mishaps along the way, but he's not what's going to take you to the top of the mountain.

Actually, I guess the Synthesist Summoner is basically a Barbarian with spells.

High Hit points? Check.
Pounce option? Check.
Decent Will saves on a melee chassis? Check.

So yeah, the Synthesist is the Barbarian with a spell list.

I guess suck it Bloodrager.

Anyway I am going to make my usual 'balance does not make the game for fun' and 'if you want to hold the game up to balance at all costs then play a different edition because you will enjoy it more' post here.


And I'm going to stick to my usual 'having inferior capabilities to other people in the same party sucks' and 'having to carry dead weight sucks' position. Each class should be roughly equally capable in distinct ways.

Truth be told, I'm starting to see the proliferation of martial classes as a problem. For every different martial class, more distinctions are required, splitting things up until each of them is too narrow/limited to be playing the same game as the spellcasters.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


2 Giants DPR 33 (barbarian) / 25 (fighter, flanked) / 12.5 (fighter, not flanked)
It seems to be a good diference. BEsides the Skills digference (wich was terrible desing), I think fighter and barbarians where more or less balanced against each other in Core. The strongerst martial was probably the paladin.

Thing is, I'd still take the barbarian any day of the week. Barbarians innately have more HP than Fighters, and get 2*level more HP when raging (3*level at 11th, and 4*level at 20th). The "oh but your barbarian might die" thing is a myth because if you lose enough HP to die from that, you already took more HP damage than your HP+Con score (which means you would have been dead anyway so the HP bought you an extra round or two to get healed up again).

Meanwhile, HP damage between fights is easy to fix. Even with superstitious active you can still be healed. Often on the cheap (a wand of cure light wounds is 750 gp in core and heals around 250 HP).

Then the barbarian is a sponge that needs more party resources. It is not that a repeated argument against the fighter? that he need a lot of resources but do not bring any? because your barbarian does not bring any resources to the party (besides 1 more skill point) and needs more and more.

Adn at the low levels the barbarian still have the -2 to saves, and do not have the big bonus to saves, So no advantage here.

I think being able to take a lot of damage so other people do not die makes him "not a sponge" I am sure that cure light wounds wand is cheaper than a raise dead or other spell had that same damage gone to someone else, or had the barbarian been dominated due to a lower will save and done the killing himself.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

master_marshmallow wrote:
***'balance does not make the game for fun' and 'if you want to hold the game up to balance at all costs then play a different edition because you will enjoy it more' post here.

I actually agree with this. While I think there is space to shore up some of the weaker classes in the game (Fighter and Rogue, I'm looking at you), I certainly don't want to see a scenario where everyone's capabilities are broken down into a few universal formulas that have little differentiating them beyond an associated keyword.

That being said, I do believe it's possible to reach a greater level of class parity without homogenizing the classes.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
At high levels it's not even a thing anymore. For example, using what is IMHO the scariest CR 20 bestiary monster the Pit Fiend as an example, both the Fighter and Barbarian will rock his socks in martial combat. His attack bonuses aren't great enough to get stellar hit % on either of them (both will have ACs of 46+, and probably displacement). However, when he starts yanking people's souls out with his trap the soul SLA, I'm going to be appreciating that my defenses consist of more than a bit more armor class.
But you will not appreciate that the party can not buff you. In core superstition is not that powerful. What make superstition powerful is that the barbarian can patch all his other weakness using non core material so he is not so dependent of party buff.

At higher levels many buffs last long enough for you to clear a dungeon, and for the others the barbarian can hold his action until he gets the buff if he thinks he needs it. The min/level and round/level spells have require for holding an action, but others will not. It works well in an actual game I am running. The player just has to be smart about when to rage, and when not to rage.


Ssalarn wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
***'balance does not make the game for fun' and 'if you want to hold the game up to balance at all costs then play a different edition because you will enjoy it more' post here.

I actually agree with this. While I think there is space to shore up some of the weaker classes in the game (Fighter and Rogue, I'm looking at you), I certainly don't want to see a scenario where everyone's capabilities are broken down into a few universal formulas that have little differentiating them beyond an associated keyword.

That being said, I do believe it's possible to reach a greater level of class parity without homogenizing the classes.

Very much this.


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Pretty much everything that Wraithstrike said.

The cost in cure light wounds wands is way less than the cost of having to revive a PC 'cause you got hit with charm person or dominate person and proceeded to murder your party members (or they were forced to murder you since you're a mighty engine of destruction). The material component cost of raise dead plus restoration is 7,000 gp and requires 2 weeks of downtime to get the negative levels to go away (unless you spring an extra 3,000 gp for greater restoration to remove both negative levels at once) and that isn't even counting the spellcasting service fees if you're not able to cast the spells yourself.

Likewise, if you think a barbarian cannot be buffed because of superstition then you haven't seen a competent barbarian in play. It's not difficult at all to get your staple buffs ready to go. Especially if you know how to manage your actions and work as a team.

I also agree with you that Barbarians are bigger resource sinks in core. Especially compared to Paladin and Ranger who can generally fight with similar competency while adding to the party resource pool directly. However when it comes to the "mundane guy who beats stuff with a stick" I'd still take core barbarian over core Fighter because his overall package of defenses feels more useful overall to me.

I can do more with the barbarian (yay skill points), in more places (uncanny dodge and trap sense make you really cool in dungeons and against ambush tactics), and against more enemies (*insert 90% of all saving throw effects in the game*), and for that I'm going to take a bit more damage from full-attacks from enemies (if you're another bruiser I'm a ****ing barbarian, please, please play rock 'em sock 'ems with me, I'll even let you have the first hit).

Liberty's Edge

Ssalarn wrote:
The fact that the Barbarian can only deal up to twice as much damage on a mounted charge instead of 4 times as much is not an argument in the barbarian's favor.

Uh...anyone can get the Lance bonus once. Barbarians get other attacks, too...but that doesn't make them any better as compared to other lance builds than it does a greatsword Barbarian as compared to other non-lance builds. It's a non-factor.

Ssalarn wrote:
I think the best option would be to give Pounce-like mechanics to other martial classes (I proposed a feat line that would do it in one of these threads...). Barring that, if anyone even wants to begin to argue that the barbarian is balanced to the Fighter, Beast Totem Pounce should really be a natural attack specific ability.

I never argued that Fighters were equal to Barbarians for a moment (they are not, Fighters suck), and would indeed like to see a Feat giving Pounce. I suggested precisely that in the second post of the thread you mention.

Ssalarn wrote:
I won't even touch your "AoMF isn't a balancing factor" other than to point you to the fact that there are literally thousands of posts contesting that statement. You surrended a common slot used for AC boosts, it's more expensive to enchant than the greatsword, the claws benefit less from abilities that rely on critical hits for delivery(and deliver less per critical hit), and the character is capped to the number of natural attacks he can get and their quality, meaning that if he wants to take feats like Improved Critical to have anything other than a 20 x2 crit for his natural weapons, he has to spend more resources.

Uh...Greater Beast Totem makes the claws critical at x3. Not the best ever, but not as bad as you'e implying. And yeah, an AoMF is probably worse than a weapon for Monks which is what most of those threads are arguing. Getting three attacks at full BAB is worrth your item being a little behind for a Barbarian, especially when you can get a Furious, Courageous AoMF for 16k, less than a +1 Furious, Courageous Greatsword.

And Beast Totem combined with potions of Barkskin go a long way towards making up for the AoNA.

Is it less good? Maybe slightly. Is it enough less good to make them use a Greatsword sans pounce? No.

Ssalarn wrote:
As to the writer thinking it was going to apply to natural attacks: he gave natural attacks as part of the ability that cannot be used in conjunction with a two-handed manufactured weapon (first big clue),

That doesn't necessarily follow at all.

Ssalarn wrote:
and the FAQ specifying that Pounce worked with manufactured weapons didn't exist yet. So yeah, pretty sure that Beast Totem was written by a guy who thought it was going to be used with natural weapons.

Even if that's true, they've had ample time and opportunity to change it...and have not done so. Instead they have given Pounce out to Kitsune, who can't even use it without manufactured weapons and other similar things.

Ssalarn wrote:
As to the "out of theme" statement... The Iconic barbarian doesn't have Beast Totem, nor is she by any stretch of the imagination the only barbarian trope someone might want to emulate in play.

Doesn't she? All the Iconics have been statted up a host of different ways. They're schroedinger's characters, having whatever build you feel like them having, within a particular theme. I'd say Beast Totem fits Amiri's theme fine.

Ssalarn wrote:
Beast Totem was likely meant to simulate the Norse hammrammr or "shapestrong" berserkers, who have occasionally been interpreted as taking on the forms of animals and who have been recreated in various fashions on multiple occasions throughout the history of D&D and Pathfinder.

Sure, and that's a valid build right now. Perhaps not quite optimal, but close. But it shouldn't be the only optimal one.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
The fact that the Barbarian can only deal up to twice as much damage on a mounted charge instead of 4 times as much is not an argument in the barbarian's favor.

Uh...anyone can get the Lance bonus once. Barbarians get other attacks, too...but that doesn't make them any better as compared to other lance builds than it does a greatsword Barbarian as compared to other non-lance builds. It's a non-factor.

So you're saying that the Barbarian being able to deal twice as much damage while mounted isn't a big deal because a standard Barbarian deals twice as much damage while unmounted? I would have to disagree. The mounted barbarian is now the damage dealing king of mounted combat, and I don't think the unmounted version is quite that far beyond the other unmounted characters. Again though, I think the solution is to give Pounce equivalent options to the other martial classes at a rate and level of availability that is equivalent to what the Barbarian spends.

It's also not at all equivalent to Kistune Pounce, which:

A)Is specific to a single race, and one which actually takes a hit to Strength.

B) Isn't a core option.

C) Requires you to burn a swift action to use

and

D) Requires a minimum Dex score and two feats that do almost nothing else.

There's absolutely no comparison between the two abilities. One is something a very specific race can do by investing to do pretty much just that one thing. The other is an option that any race has access to with better action economy and better bonuses all along the way.


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Alexandros Satorum wrote:

Then the barbarian is a sponge that needs more party resources. It is not that a repeated argument against the fighter? that he need a lot of resources but do not bring any? because your barbarian does not bring any resources to the party (besides 1 more skill point) and needs more and more.

Adn at the low levels the barbarian still have the -2 to saves, and do not have the big bonus to saves, So no advantage here.

Just throwin this out there but I take Superstitious at 2nd level. What -2 to saves are you talking about? I read a +2 fort and +1 to Will over the Fighter from Rage alone.

A Barbarian at level 20 has 120 more HP than a Fighter will in fights. If he's an Invulnerable Rager he has DR10 to boot. Most creatures dish out 40 damage a hit so it takes 4 hits to eat through just the extra HP during fights the Barbarian has.

If the matter is AC alone, I've shown you before that the Barbarian can have a higher AC and still have the regular DR to boot with better saves and options in combat like wreckin spells.

The only reason to play a Fighter is if you hate Rage that much and think the extra +5 or 6 damage the Fighter gets is worth worrying about every Will save that comes your way.

So when the Barbarian has the same AC as the Fighter, he still soaks less resources than the Fighter will since he'll shrug off more saves and take less damage from attacks. And I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 games, even Barbarians with a lower AC are eating less resources because a failed save requires so much more to fix than a Cure Light Wounds wand.


wraithstrike wrote:


I think being able to take a lot of damage so other people do not die makes him "not a sponge" I am sure that cure light wounds wand is cheaper than a raise dead or other spell had that same damage gone to someone else, or had the barbarian been dominated due to a lower will save and done the killing himself.

I would argue that not taking that much damage in the first place is a better option than get hitted and wait to not get killed or be affecter by a rider effect.


It should have been -2 to AC scavion, my bad.


Scavion wrote:
If the matter is AC alone, I've shown you before that the Barbarian can have a higher AC and still have the regular DR to boot with better saves and options in combat like wreckin spells.

The argumetn was about CORE barbarians vs core fighters. IN Core most of the good thing about barbarians goes away. If you thing fighters sucks, then core barbarians sucks too.


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Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Scavion wrote:
If the matter is AC alone, I've shown you before that the Barbarian can have a higher AC and still have the regular DR to boot with better saves and options in combat like wreckin spells.
The argumetn was about CORE barbarians vs core fighters. IN Core most of the good thing about barbarians goes away. If you thing fighters sucks, then core barbarians sucks too.

Talking about core is nonsense since the game is so much more than that especially since the "Core" line has expanded but I'll humor ya.

In Core[rulebook] only, a Barbarian is toting far more magnificent saves from level 2 onwards, getting +4 Fort, +2 Reflex, +3 Will during Rages with Superstitious. At this particularly low level, our Barbarian has a full +4 Strength over the Fighter. So he has a +2 attack and damage over the Fighter. We can actually afford to use a one handed weapon like the Scimitar and still dish out loads of damage. That means we can afford a shield to make up for the penalty from Rage. He moves 10 feet faster too.

If we really don't care about AC(Why would we right? HP Damage is the least of our problems), we can just flat out deal out more than the Fighter. 4th level when Fighters finally get Weapon Specialization, he's finally barely caught up with the Barbarian. Damage wise. Saves wise, the Barbarian's saves all went one more up on the Fighter.

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