Design Manager
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If the matter is AC alone, I've shown you before that the Barbarian can have a higher AC and still have the regular DR to boot with better saves and options in combat like wreckin spells.The argumetn was about CORE barbarians vs core fighters. IN Core most of the good thing about barbarians goes away. If you thing fighters sucks, then core barbarians sucks too.
Paizo's definition of Core is basically "Everything we put in a hardcover that doesn't have Inner Sea somewhere in the title" or "Everything we put in our PRD".
Even using nothing but the PRD though, Barbar still keeps it competitive and effective. I'll take good saves over a couple of points of AC any day, especially when combined with more hit points, DR, and some battlefield control options (I've seen low level Barbarians make excellent use of Intimidating Glare and Cleave, or Terrifying Howl and Dazzling Display at 8th level and up). Barbar pretty much always has more options combined with equal or better defensive options, even if you cut out a bunch of material and go CRB only.
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I'll take good saves over a couple of points of AC any day
Agreed on that point. 95% of the time AC only protects you from HP damage. Losing HP is bad, but it doesn't really change your combat effectiveness; a Barbarian with 10 HP its just as hard and has just as many options as one at 100 HP. A failed save is a lot more likely to cause immediate problems that instantly negate your combat effectiveness (domination, paralysis, blindness, being battlefield controlled into irrelevancy, etc).
There's also the fact that at low levels the Barbarian actually has no disadvantages next to the fighter in offense even if he's not raging because fighters don't have an edge on offense until 5th level (or possibly 4th, but only if you're using weapon specialization). Those levels the barbarian is just BAB and ability scores just like the fighter, except she's faster (+10 ft. speed, allowing her to move in medium armor without much trouble) and can turn on a +2/+2 to hit and damage on demand in exchange for a -2 to AC.
Fighters IMHO don't even start looking competitive until they can move at full speed in plate armor at 7th. Even then, grabbing heavy armor proficiency and some mithral mail isn't going to break a barbarian later on either. >_>
Talking about core is nonsense since the game is so much more than that especially since the "Core" line has expanded but I'll humor ya.
In Core[rulebook] only, a Barbarian is toting far more magnificent saves from level 2 onwards, getting +4 Fort, +2 Reflex, +3 Will during Rages with Superstitious. At this particularly low level, our Barbarian has a full +4 Strength over the Fighter. So he has a +2 attack and damage over the Fighter. We can actually afford to use a one handed weapon like the Scimitar and still dish out loads of damage. That means we can afford a shield to make up for the penalty from Rage. He moves 10 feet faster too.
If we really don't care about AC(Why would we right? HP Damage is the least of our problems), we can just flat out deal out more than the Fighter. 4th level when Fighters finally get Weapon Specialization, he's finally barely caught up with the Barbarian. Damage wise. Saves wise, the Barbarian's saves all went one more up on the Fighter.
We were talking about core just because we wanted to talk about core.
You are missing a couple of thing.
1) At lower levels rage rounds are pretty limited. RAndom Kobold do a hit and run tactics and the barbarian will have more problems that the fighter.
2) At lower level you should really care about AC. not sure other people games but at lower levels the AC is usually the most important defense, adn there is no DR.
3) Long lasting buff are not common at lower levels, it is not like suprestitious is not a double edge sword.
1) At lower levels rage rounds are pretty limited. RAndom Kobold do a hit and run tactics and the barbarian will have more problems that the fighter.
False. At low levels fighters have no advantage over barbarians. They have the same AC and no bonuses to hit or damage beyond the barbarian. The barbarian however has a 40 ft. speed in light and a 30 ft. in medium armor, meaning that the barbarian is better at dealing with hit and run kobolds.
2) At lower level you should really care about AC. not sure other people games but at lower levels the AC is usually the most important defense, adn there is no DR.
Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers all have the same general AC at low levels. Everyone wears chainmail or breastplates and uses a shield. Nothing to see here really.
3) Long lasting buff are not common at lower levels, it is not like suprestitious is not a double edge sword.
Worthwhile buffs are also not very common at low levels. Sans enlarge person which is more effective in potion/oil format since you can chug it as a standard action while moving instead of letting your mage spend 1 round casting (and thus risk getting nailed and failing the spell) there are precious few buffs that are worthwhile.
Once you get to stuff like haste and heroism you're getting into some nice buff range. Bull's strength could be a contender at 3rd level. However, at these levels they aren't going to do very much or last very long so the mage would be better off supporting you with spells like create pit instead.
Getting your haste on is really the big kicker, but delaying or buffing with a potion on the first round is generally a good idea. For example, if I'm playing a barbarian and we're 5th level I'll wait to rage until our mage is ready to cast haste. If we're in a big fight I'll take some of the buffing load on myself since I can drink a potion (such as shield of faith, resist energy, or enlarge person) as a standard action, move with a move action, and draw my weapons as part of that move action. Once hasted, the murder begins on the following round. If we're facing spellcasters then I might risk the loss of the buff to get my +3 to all saves (so as to avoid getting struck with a blindness/deafness, charm, hideous laughter, create pit, or hold person which are more detrimental than being hasted is beneficial).
At high levels, boots of speed are a thing and one of the easiest ways to ensure that you get your haste on, superstition or not.
Gotta say the Fighter has no AC advantage against the Barb at low levels. Both have the same Dex.
The big defense at the lowest levels is hit points...they form insulation against being suddenly dead.
oh, and saves, of course.
The barb has the advantage in both of these areas. And, of course, he can run away faster. That really saves lives.
The fighter receives NO at/damage buffs until level 4. The barb gets his when he wants them at level 1. Blatantly unfair, but that's how it is.
Don't see how maybe 1 pt of AC from heavy armor that slows the fighter down until he's 7th really helps the fighter, y'know?
==Aelryinth
Ashiel,
1) If you asume the barb is not raging (cause you are not counting the -2 penalty to AC). Then the fighter have extra feats.
2) pelease do not put hte paladin and hte ranger in the mix. We can talk about them if you like, but right now is about fighters and barbarians.
By the way, if you do not have the -2 penalty to AC you do not have the bonus to saves either.
3) You make good point. But I want to point out that delay the rage means you do not have the bonus to saves in that round.
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So you're saying that the Barbarian being able to deal twice as much damage while mounted isn't a big deal because a standard Barbarian deals twice as much damage while unmounted? I would have to disagree. The mounted barbarian is now the damage dealing king of mounted combat, and I don't think the unmounted version is quite that far beyond the other unmounted characters. Again though, I think the solution is to give Pounce equivalent options to the other martial classes at a rate and level of availability that is equivalent to what the Barbarian spends.
I disagree that it's that much better, but agree on the solution.
It's also not at all equivalent to Kistune Pounce, which:
A)Is specific to a single race, and one which actually takes a hit to Strength.
B) Isn't a core option.
C) Requires you to burn a swift action to use
and
D) Requires a minimum Dex score and two feats that do almost nothing else.
There's absolutely no comparison between the two abilities. One is something a very specific race can do by investing to do pretty much just that one thing. The other is an option that any race has access to with better action economy and better bonuses all along the way.
Oh, you're right, Greater Beast Totem is infinitely better, I was specifically referring to the idea of Greater Beast Totem only being intended for natural attacks...with Kitsune Pounce as evidence that they do have ways to grant Pounce that isn't limited in that fashion and have since Greater Beast Totem came out.
Are there any feats that are the equal of the combat bonuses from Rage on demand?
Nope.
Is there a feat that is the equal of fast movement?
Nope.
Is there a feat the equal of the d12 hit die?
YES...the fighter can take Toughness. However, it's a general feat, not a class feat, so he can't take it with his class abilities?
Do any barb class features have stat reqs?
Nope. But fighter Armor Training sure does! No high dex, no benefit!
etc etc.
If it comes down to class features, Barbarians get full class features, and Rage Talents that are also full scaling class features.
Fighters get half-strength class features in the form of most feats that are either not as strong, or don't scale.
==Aelryinth
Fighters do make better archers then Barbarians. Not really any rage powers that help with that but alot of feats that do. Also an archer does not really need pounce.
Sense the Fighter needs high Dex to make use of his armor training anyway might as well become an archer.
The fighter interlude have taken a lot of time. My point is, yes the barbarian are umbalanced. Perhaps not agaisnt the rest of the game, but I find that the the barbarian have a really few options that are basically a "must", and if you do not take at least one of them you end to be way below, so they are umbalanced agaisnt each other, ANd in my opinion is the bigger umbalance among martials.
If the suprestitions invulnerable rager pouncing barbarian will be the desirable power level then the game needs more rage power at the same level.
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Nope. But fighter Armor Training sure does! No high dex, no benefit!
That's not COMPLETELY true. Armor Training does let you move at normal speed in heavier armors as it ranks up.
I mean, it's not particularly important (especially when comparing to the Barb who is moving at 30 ft in heavy armor at level 1 or 40 in studded leather) but it is something!
...Except for the fact that most good fighter archetypes give up Armor Training entirely.
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Aren't barbarians supposed to be unbalanced? I mean, that's what makes them rage, right? Lack of balance in life?
Oh, you meant imbalanced.
Yeah armor training requiring dex to beneit from is bull. Full speed in medium/heavy armor are great abilities and come online far earlier than mithril is a minor investment. And the drop in ACP makes a noticable difference for the balance checks to say double move up a stair.
Arachnofiend: only dwarven bards move 30ft in heavy at level one.
But agreed, fast movement is better. Doesnt help with acrobatics though, and doesnt allow the barb to tumble in medium/heavy armor (which armor training does)
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Aren't barbarians supposed to be unbalanced? I mean, that's what makes them rage, right? Lack of balance in life?
It's their huge upper bodies and tiny little legs. Try to be stacked like that on a ship in a storm. No wonder most barbarians hate sailing.
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I would argue that not taking that much damage in the first place is a better option than get hitted and wait to not get killed or be affecter by a rider effect.
I think being able to take a lot of damage so other people do not die makes him "not a sponge" I am sure that cure light wounds wand is cheaper than a raise dead or other spell had that same damage gone to someone else, or had the barbarian been dominated due to a lower will save and done the killing himself.
Of course not being hit is better than being hit, but if you want a barbarian with AC it can be done, and even a hit barbarian is less expensive than a dead party member. With that being said, if the bad guys realize they can't hit PC _____ then a tactical GM will have to change targets to someone they can hit.
No, I am not saying it is a good idea to have low AC. I am saying that the barbarian is less of a resource drain that other alternatives.
PS: Even when I run fighters I tend to go for two handed weapons because the quicker you kill the bad guys the less likely you are to take damage so the best defense can be a good offense.
No one commented on my builds :(
I did not see any builds. Post links.. :)
I would argue that not taking that much damage in the first place is a better option than get hitted and wait to not get killed or be affecter by a rider effect.
I think being able to take a lot of damage so other people do not die makes him "not a sponge" I am sure that cure light wounds wand is cheaper than a raise dead or other spell had that same damage gone to someone else, or had the barbarian been dominated due to a lower will save and done the killing himself.
Of course not being hit is better than being hit, but if you want a barbarian with AC it can be done, and even a hit barbarian is less expensive than a dead party member. With that being said, if the bad guys realize they can't hit PC _____ then a tactical GM will have to change targets to someone they can hit.
No, I am not saying it is a good idea to have low AC. I am saying that the barbarian is less of a resource drain that other alternatives.
PS: Even when I run fighters I tend to go for two handed weapons because the quicker you kill the bad guys the less likely you are to take damage so the best defense can be a good offense.
Well, yes What you say is true, in general. But Ashiel and I were talking about core barbarians where low AC was standard (Beast totem line remove that).
Euw. Just... Euw.
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Ashiel,
1) If you asume the barb is not raging (cause you are not counting the -2 penalty to AC). Then the fighter have extra feats.
As Aelyrinth points out, Barbarians have more HP when not raging (effectively Toughness for free). Barbarians have +10 ft. movement speed in light or medium armor (better than Fleet). Low level feats aren't that special (seriously, you've got 1-2 extra feats, but neither of those are going to be all that grand). The good high level feats anyone can take.
The catch is, the Barbarian is pretty much just Fighter+ at low levels (same AC, same saves, more HP, more skill points, more speed), plus he can rage for more hit, damage, saves, and a small HP boost on demand, which is better than what the Fighter gets even at 5th level (weapon focus + weapon specialization + weapon training just meets the +2/+3 damage that the Barbarian has had since 1st level).
2) pelease do not put hte paladin and hte ranger in the mix. We can talk about them if you like, but right now is about fighters and barbarians.
Actually the topic is Barbarians being unbalanced. You're comparing them to a Fighters to see if they are unbalanced, but Rangers and Paladins also make Fighters look bad, but not Barbarians. Everyone has the same AC as Fighters at low levels but more options. Paladins have the same AC + better saves, Rangers have the same AC + better saves, Barbarians have the same AC + maybe better saves + great offensive power.
Barbarians aren't unbalanced, but they're still my go-to mundane in core because Fighters just don't give anything worthwhile. All but a select few combat feats in core blow chunks or have lame prerequisites that make getting them unappealing. In core, combat feats I actually care about include mostly archery feats, power attack, deadly aim, blind-fight, lunge (sometimes), catch-off guard (for polearms, sometimes), Quick Draw (sometimes), and Step-Up. Most anything else is pretty frivolous or nice as a freebie feat if you can ignore prerequisites (for example, monks can get dodge / deflect arrows easily, and Two-Weapon Fighting isn't bad on a Strength Ranger who can ignore the goofy Dex prerequisites).
Mounted Combat feats are also pretty cool, but not for fighters. Paladins and Rangers sure (they actually get a mount that stays relevant and can be replaced in-class). I do enjoy me some mounted rangers. :o
By the way, if you do not have the -2 penalty to AC you do not have the bonus to saves either.
Heheh, that's the beauty of it. My saves are no worse than the Fighters without it and I still fight pretty much as good, while also having Uncanny Dodge + Improved Uncanny Dodge + more HP. So if I really just need to tank a brute with no magic, I can choose to not rage. If I need to deal lots of damage or fight a spellcaster (or supernatural creature) then I can rage.
Not having options is NOT better than having options.
3) You make good point. But I want to point out that delay the rage means you do not have the bonus to saves in that round.
Let's look at this some more. What was presented was as follows.
1. I use the first round for buffing and rage on the 2nd round. This means that I potion, move, and prepare for combat, then get buffed on top of it so that on my next turn I rage and I'm an oiled up god of war.
2. I simply delay, get buffed, take all my actions and rage in the turn. I lose no turn, I get buffed, and I'm a sexy oiled up god of war in the same round.
3. Worst case scenario, we're facing an enemy who I'm more afraid of failing saves against than I am of missing out on my buffs, so I rage as soon as I possibly can to get the +2-7 bonus on my saves. Which is a tactical decision. It's an option that I have. I have an option to play more defensively but the Fighter does not have that option.
The fighter has 1 option. Get buffed and hope you don't fail a save. The barbarian can react to what is currently going on and if he needs more defense vs baleful lawn ornament then he can get that. If he doesn't, he can wait less than a round and be no worse off than the fighter. Or he can wait a full round and no use up any rage time, especially since neither he nor the Fighter are going to do anything super-meaningful in melee in round 1 anyway since martials suck ass and can't move + full attack without some non-core trick.
Best Non-Core Trick For Martials: Just keep having your quickrunner shirt upgraded to have more charges. When dealing with a 1/day charged item, the cost increases by 100% for each additional charge (because cost is 1/5th the cost of a 5/day charged item). The best thing a non-pouncing martial can do (and hell, even a pouncing martial IMHO) is get as many charges on a quickrunner's shirt as you can get. It will allow you to actually move and contribute at high levels without goofy tricks.
PFS players are out of luck though.
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last night our barbarian died.
he has saves in the statospher, and DR but the huge gian with improve vital strike made some holes in him.
sadly for the barby, he got hit on a vicious critical - and fell to begetive hit points.
the healer healed but the save was 50% worth amount of heal.
than he droppoed and as the rage ended.... he auto died.
is he normally great? yes. does he have weak spot? ofc, especially when we buff.
Any crit that can do that to a raging barbarian would have done worse to a fighter. Remember that the barbarian has more HP than the fighter, something between 4 (1st level) to at least 120 (at 20 th level). A fighter in the same position would've died before the healer could even launch his spell.
The barbarians weakness is that he lasts a round more than the fighter would before dying. I'm okay with that.
barbarians can last an additional 1-3 rounds over the fighter before dying depending on the weapons the enemy favors, the build of the barbarian, the class of the enemy, how many buffs the enemy has active and so on. or an additional 4-6 rounds if the enemy is a 2WF build and the barbarian is an invulnerable rager whom exploits improved stalwart
Tankarians are one of my favorite ways to play barbarians outside of core. Sure there are ways to be a faster killing machine, but I prefer being an unstoppable killing machine. He who lives to deal the most damage does the best damage. :P
last night our barbarian died.
he has saves in the statospher, and DR but the huge gian with improve vital strike made some holes in him.
sadly for the barby, he got hit on a vicious critical - and fell to begetive hit points.
the healer healed but the save was 50% worth amount of heal.
than he droppoed and as the rage ended.... he auto died.
is he normally great? yes. does he have weak spot? ofc, especially when we buff.
There is a feat that allows them to keep raging even after going unconscious. That should keep them alive until someone can heal them.
I would argue that not taking that much damage in the first place is a better option than get hitted and wait to not get killed or be affecter by a rider effect.
I think being able to take a lot of damage so other people do not die makes him "not a sponge" I am sure that cure light wounds wand is cheaper than a raise dead or other spell had that same damage gone to someone else, or had the barbarian been dominated due to a lower will save and done the killing himself.
Of course not being hit is better than being hit, but if you want a barbarian with AC it can be done, and even a hit barbarian is less expensive than a dead party member. With that being said, if the bad guys realize they can't hit PC _____ then a tactical GM will have to change targets to someone they can hit.
No, I am not saying it is a good idea to have low AC. I am saying that the barbarian is less of a resource drain that other alternatives.
PS: Even when I run fighters I tend to go for two handed weapons because the quicker you kill the bad guys the less likely you are to take damage so the best defense can be a good offense.
Well, yes What you say is true, in general. But Ashiel and I were talking about core barbarians where low AC was standard (Beast totem line remove that).
I thought Ashiel said something about barbarians having high AC possibly. Maybe I misunderstood. I guess he will clear it up later on.. :)
At low levels before Fighters have any bonus damage (earliest possible level being 4th, but if you're not locking yourself into one weapon then 5th and then 9th) the Barbarian has more or less the same level of combat ability and same AC when not raging, and more combat ability when raging.
In core you end up with a little less AC than a Fighter top-levels (about 5 points when raging) if you're wearing +5 celestial armor (the chainmail sort). The biggest difference is around mid levels where barbarians can't readily afford nice armor but Fighters can wear plate while the Barbarian still has low-ish Dex-modifiers.
Now you can find some defensive abilities in core which grant you a scaling dodge bonus to AC vs melee or ranged (depending on the power) attacks for several rounds, but honestly these aren't criticial to have to be a decent tank (if you find yourself with a few Extra Rage Power feats to spare in core it might not hurt, but the beast totem is nicer for general purposes though it doesn't apply vs all attacks like the dodge bonuses).
So yeah. At low levels, Barbarian > Fighter total package. At mid levels, Fighter can get significant AC advantage but Barbarian > Fighter because saves and tactical features. At high levels, Barbarian > Fighter because his defensive weight is so much higher than the Fighter who only has 5 points of AC on him.
Dont mock the dreaded cry of "Hurr Durr". It was the last sound heard by many a calculating and evil creature.
I just realized that Hurr Durr sounds a lot like Hodor...
Huh. Did the forum just eat my post?
Ashiel, while i agree.with your.conclusions, I do think youre selling the fighter a bit short. Corefeats are good enough that havig on ore three feats total is a big dofference. For the 2nd level martial character, its the difference between havin power attack, and having PA, Iron Will, and say Cleave (later retrained) because my experrience with cleave low level is good. If you dont like it theres other useful feats like combat reflexe.
I dont think its fair to say that fighters have worse saves because we shouldnt include generic feats like iron will but saying the barbarian has similar offensive ability since both can take PA. Either we count general feats and fighters can have better saves (out of rage) or we dont count them and barbarian doesnt have PA while fighter does.
Again, this dpesnt mean the fighter reaches the place of the barbarian, but at low levels i feel they are a full match for a ranger, being noticably beter in combat but far less skilled at skills, and i think youre a little too harsh on them.
I might be missing something but isn't the real strength of a fighter being able to max out combat maneuvers quickly via tons of feats, something that has a far higher opportunity cost for other classes?
I mean, a first level fighter can already have improved disarm or improved sunder, both potentially game-changing feats. Sure a human Barbarian can do the same thing, but the opportunity cost is pretty hefty.
Fueldrop, how? Doesnt improved sunder require PA and id require combat expertise? Thats four feats, and a minimum 13 int that doesnt do much good outside ofdisarming. It might take a barb a liiitle longer to getstarted, but strenth surge pretty much craps all over the CMB boosts of anythig less than an optimized lore warden.
Well, depends on investment. Strenth surge -alone- (without rage cycling.etc) doesnt crap over a lore warden. Its basically +level on one CMB or CMD roll vs +1/2 level on all CMB/CMD. Also, barbarians cant get the imp. Combat maneuvers as class features, a lore warden can.
Although str surge is pretty nice, the amount of feat of the lore warden put him on top. AT level 10 the lore warden can move, deal damage, trip and grapple, and perhaps attack again in the same turn, no way the barbarian can do that.
Yeah, but the barbarian can do it SUCCESSFULLY. That's the difference.
As for AC...Barbarians have a rage power that gives them scaling Natural Armor all the way up to +5. That beats the crap off not wearing heavy armor.
Add to that they can get a scaling DODGE BONUS to AC on top of it, and yes, barbarians can crap all over fighter AC, too.
==Aelryinth
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I believe that in typical gameplay for a given level, when it comes to melee situations, it's very hard to top having pounce for general butt-kickery. This is especially true in PC vs. monster combat.
If you want to discuss strictly PC vs. PC for comparison, the classes are extremely competitive vs. one another if you employ the builds and tactics they are most suited towards. In that case it really comes down to which character was built with the better system mastery.
Str surge vs. fighter/feat/item optimization is basically moot at the high end, as when you are sundering/disarming/tripping at +70 or higher very few PC CMD's outside of defense specialized builds will have a prayer of standing up to that anyhow.
Mounted RAGELANCEPOUNCE was FAQ'd back into existence. Or did you miss that?
And ragelancepounce got errataed out of existence as a broken strategy already, or had you missed that?
Please link this FAQ'd I need to see it with my own eyes or my DM won't let me do it.
barbarians aren't overpowered, they are however, slightly below bards and magi.
Barbarians are one of the very few martial classes that actually work.But the way they work is SO dumb.
"hurr durr +12 more to my d20 roll"
The class whose theme is brute force gets through its challenges by using bigger numbers. Makes sense in its own hilarious way.
What if I told you...
Ill Omen does so much for a first level spell and the fact that it advances slightly faster than iterative attacks is just gravy.
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Remember those days between 1st and 3rd edition when the barbarians took a leave of absence? :)
Honestly, I think barbarians can dish out ridiculous amount of damage, but that's by design, and the overpowered tag just gets added if the barbarian is constantly healed by a cleric. Take the cleric out of the equation, and you usually a more careful barbarian show up at the table, or at least one that will occasionally switch to a ranged weapon instead of raging when getting low on hit points...
Another way to do this is to play an evil cleric or a neutral one that channels negative energy... it usually takes the wind out of any cleric abuser at the table...