Background: I'm running Rise of the Runelords. I have 7 players and two are pretty loud and chatty. I'm working on keeping them focused so I can be in control of the game pace. They also talk over other people however, like I said, we are working on this issue. But the game is still moving slow.
I do feedback sessions after every game and something I need to improve on is my map drawing time. I like maps. I love to draw areas of adventures as PC's encounter them. They enjoy the exploration aspect but sometimes I can take 5 to 10 min to draw a map only to erase it after they are done with the room (combat or not). This wasn't really a problem in my old group. They sat quietly to let me concentrate on drawing the map. I've never really thought about it as a problem but the time I take is really detrimental to our game now.
How can I speed up drawing maps and my game in general without sacrificing the joy of exploration?
I've thought about pre-drawing everything then using index cards to block what the PC's can't see. But I use a Chessex 26x23 Battlemat to draw on and it's porus. The wet earse marker will stain if I leave the map on the mat for too long.
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Someone on the boards gets clear sheets of some kind of plastic (the kind they used to use for overhead projectors) and pre-draws the maps on them ... lay it over the battlemat, draw the map, remove the transparency, draw the next map.
Background: I'm running Rise of the Runelords. I have 7 players and two are pretty loud and chatty. I'm working on keeping them focused so I can be in control of the game pace. They also talk over other people however, like I said, we are working on this issue. But the game is still moving slow.
I do feedback sessions after every game and something I need to improve on is my map drawing time. I like maps. I love to draw areas of adventures as PC's encounter them. They enjoy the exploration aspect but sometimes I can take 5 to 10 min to draw a map only to erase it after they are done with the room (combat or not). This wasn't really a problem in my old group. They sat quietly to let me concentrate on drawing the map. I've never really thought about it as a problem but the time I take is really detrimental to our game now.
How can I speed up drawing maps and my game in general without sacrificing the joy of exploration?
I've thought about pre-drawing everything then using index cards to block what the PC's can't see. But I use a Chessex 26x23 Battlemat to draw on and it's porus. The wet earse marker will stain if I leave the map on the mat for too long.
Get a clear plastic sheet (available at most hardware stores in the doors and windows section) that fits over the battle map. You can draw to your hearts content with wet erase markers and not damage the battle mat.
Ninja'ed
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For the chatty players you may need to talk to them while not gaming and see what can be done to limit the chatting - maybe there maybe random monsters that are wandering by and hear them. Maybe come up with a signal you can use when you need them to listen.
For the maps - my Chessex maps come clean even after a couple of weeks with wet erase sitting on them. I do not use black, as it stains. Brown, blue, purple are my go to colors.
If you have extra money, maybe having another battlemap may help or get some larger size paper, or preprinted hex pads to have those maps predawn.
I went to a paper supply warehouse and got a ream of 12x18 inch pack of Cover paper. For 16.00$ U.S. (U.S. Paper size- not sure where you are)It is larger and thicker- it is more like card stock. I draw a 1" grid and draw the maps to use it to draw smaller maps and to have a couple to cover the larger maps until the PC enter that part of the map and uncover as they go. Hope this helps.
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Here are some tips that sped up our group, at least for the combat portion of things:
When rolling attacks, require everyone to roll to-hit and damage dice at the same time. This really adds up. As GM, to encourage this behavior you explain that your effectiveness, or lack of effectiveness, rolling dice affects your PC's performance.
When someone rolls to-hit without also rolling damage, or is otherwise needlessly slow rolling dice, apply a -1 or -2 circumstance modifier. Late or disorganized dice rolling that is trying to comply gets a -1 or a 0. Snappy, totally-on-top-of-it narration and dice rolling can, at GM discretion, give a +1 circumstance bonus. New players get a free ride for their first 3 game sessions.
Apply this same principle to how long a player deliberates about what the character does. After more than X~15? seconds of player delay the character automatically enters delay. The next person in initiative order goes. Once the delaying player thinks what to do they can go out of delay, but they always lose at least one spot in line.
Set up a very visible initiative list. Everyone should be able to tell at a glance who goes when.
As people suggest above, get a better map system. You need to be able to draw all your maps well in advance, else you will be a source of delay. Even a few minutes of waiting while you draw maps can disrupt the group's flow.
Out of combat look to other comments.
Have one of the players run init, he calls out who is up and who is next. If you're up, you must be ready to go, if casting a spell, that page is open, move planned out, maybe even dice rolled.
No electronic devices at table, unless turned to the rules or your character, etc.
Limit cohorts/pets/summoned creatures. One per PC at a time.
For the map: When the GM hasn't had the map drawn out ahead of time, he sometimes hands out the pens to the players. You sort of get the feel of a character drawing the map of a dungeon. Also you give the map drawing to one of the people who can't pay attention.
Our game has 6 people in it so you have a lot of people. No wonder they suggest 4-5. Anyway, when we get to talking to ourselves and the GM is talking to another player, he will RAISE HIS VOICE. Some times he will use threats like XP loss and the like. It quiets everyone down. I would imagine if your two trouble makers found that they had a couple hundred less XP less than everyone else you could simply say it was for not keeping it quiet.
We bought a Small magnetic dry erase board and bought some of those magnetic strips for names. There is room for monsters and what round it is at the top as well as any buffs currently running.
BTW, no problems with Electronics here. The GM uses a laptop and a Tablet. There are other tablets and PCs around the table. They do not interrupt the game play. I think different groups have different issues with them so it should be part of the issue.
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The biggest help from our group.
1. Roll attack and damage dice together
2. Players should be familiar with their character's abilities and must have some sort of quick references for more complex abilities (like spells)
3. When maps need to be detailed, draw them ahead of time. When they don't need to be detailed, don't try to get every little thing right. Just wing it, but make it clear enough that the players can tell what's what.
4. Recently, I put a magnetic strip on my GM screen to help with initiative. I have some dry erase magnets similar to what is used with the Combat Pad (sold by paizo). Now, my players and me both see the initiative order. On their turn, a player has a five count to give their action. If they cannot decide, the action is held until after the one in line (new players get a very slow 5 count). If they are unsure the second time, they loose action for the turn. So far, only one player has put on hold once. It works really well and can help keep the tension of the combat high.
I have also seen other GMs also use cardboard tents for initiative. Take a piece of cardboard 1" x 4" and fold it over. Write the character and monster names on both sides and place them in order hanging on the GM screen.
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Don't do what my current GM did: allow a completely green player play a summoner. His turns literally take 5+ minutes.
In my case, I've usually managed to keep chatty players quiet by just raising my voice (not yelling, but enough that they know to be quiet). Without knowing how strong your own personal charisma is and the players in question, offering advice is hard. Being honest with them away from the table and telling them to be quieter may work. I tend to shy away from docking XP for this kind of thing -- it may or may not work, but it strikes me as a bit juvenile. This is a rudeness/respect issue, primarily (if docking XP gets you results, then by all means -- I just can't see it being something I would do).
I have a chessex map that our group has used for over a decade now. Black usually works well for me; it's red that stains mine the worst, but usually any kind of stain comes out eventually. If your map is being weird then I'd consider trying out Gaming Paper. It's cheap and you can cut it up and draw things in advance.
If your group is large, you may also just have to lay down the law regarding dice if you want to speed things up. I keep my dice organized admittedly and don't really understand why other people don't, so I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who have to constantly hunt through their random dice pile for a d20 and a weapon die every round. Just be honest with them: this is a large group, and everyone needs to have the dice they need ready to go when their turn comes up, as a matter of respect for everyone else's time. Dice used frequently need to be kept separately from ones used rarely, and gigantic dice piles that are not needed should be put away.
Like other people have mentioned, I give people a time limit on their turns, and use an easily visible initiative board, and both of those things helped out quite a bit. I wait a few moments and then hold up my hand with all five digits out, and count down from there. The time before I start counting down varies depending on the group size; in small groups (say, 3 players) there's less reason to hurry people along unless they take a REALLY long time, but with 7 players, I'd probably start counting them down more or less immediately. You can delay them or skip their turn entirely depending on how mean you want to be if they run out of time, but I tend to lean towards the latter with a larger group, since they have more between-turn time to figure out what to do and time (or the lack of it) is more of an issue in general.
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For pre-drawn maps, we use a roll of clear plastic backing film, from WH Smiths, that has a 20mm grid printed on the backing paper.
The plastic works well with dry-erase markers, and though the grid is smaller than the now-industry-standard 1" (25mm), we're all old-school UK players, who grew up with Games Workshop 20mm floorplans, and many of our figures have 20mm Warhammer bases.
Figures on a 1" base only have a slight overlap, which only matters for large groups.
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Generally speaking, I never draw a map unless combat is happening. I just describe room layouts. This includes dungeon crawling. In a branching cooridor, I just describe the paths they can take and let them choose.
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It's a game that relies on social interaction, so you can't completely remove the social interaction. If you can't get your chatty players to simmer down (and you don't want to get rid of them), then control the things you can control.
Buy 1" grid easel pads and pre-draw the maps. Cut out the individual rooms, then whip them out during the session and secure them together with a bit of scotch tape. This way, you can spend as much time as you like drawing maps and it won't impact gameplay.
-Skeld
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I've thought about pre-drawing everything then using index cards to block what the PC's can't see. But I use a Chessex 26x23 Battlemat to draw on and it's porus. The wet earse marker will stain if I leave the map on the mat for too long.
I used to do this. Here's a few of thoughts.
- Post-it notes work better for me than index cards.
- Try different brands of markers. Some brands and some colors are more of a problem than others.
- Don't press real hard and draw real thick heavy lines. The players just need to be able to see it, it's not a permanent work of art.
- Sometimes the stains can be gotten out if you go back over it with the exact same marker to liquefy it again.
- I stopped drawing the weekend before a game. I now try to draw just an hour or so before everyone arrives.
- The flip maps don't stain as easily. Often I can manage to use the flip maps as is without drawing much of anything.
- I know at least 1 guy that uses a thin sheet of Plexiglas (over the mat) to draw on instead of the mat.
- Ask one player that you can trust to not meta-game to arrive 30 min early and draw maps while you get everything else ready.
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I abandoned "battle-mats" and miniatures except for fights in complex terrain featuring multiple adversaries. For 90% of combats, we just play them out without moving dolls around the table. It speeds up combat immeasureably -- you can get through a whole battle in the time it used to take to play out one round.
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What Kirth said.
I love me some tactical wargamy goodness. I just don't love it in my RPGs because tactical wargamy goodness works best when there's simultaneous decision-making going on.
D&D/PF doesn't do simultaneous decisions. It generates a conga-line of decision points made by people who chatter with their friends when it isn't their turn (or go and check Facebook when it isn't their turn in online games.)
So, every time you futz with minis trying to see if something's in an area of effect or you get flanking or you get higher ground? You're slowing the game down for everyone else.
Background: I'm running Rise of the Runelords. I have 7 players and two are pretty loud and chatty. I'm working on keeping them focused so I can be in control of the game pace. They also talk over other people however, like I said, we are working on this issue. But the game is still moving slow.
I do feedback sessions after every game and something I need to improve on is my map drawing time. I like maps. I love to draw areas of adventures as PC's encounter them. They enjoy the exploration aspect but sometimes I can take 5 to 10 min to draw a map only to erase it after they are done with the room (combat or not). This wasn't really a problem in my old group. They sat quietly to let me concentrate on drawing the map. I've never really thought about it as a problem but the time I take is really detrimental to our game now.
How can I speed up drawing maps and my game in general without sacrificing the joy of exploration?
I've thought about pre-drawing everything then using index cards to block what the PC's can't see. But I use a Chessex 26x23 Battlemat to draw on and it's porus. The wet earse marker will stain if I leave the map on the mat for too long.
Get gaming paper. Its fairly cheap and disposable. Pre draw all the maps you need for an adventure and just use the battlemat for unexpected things. When you are done you can save the gaming paper for future use of things that will come up again, otherwise you can throw it away, its just paper after all.
Two things that have worked for me with over-chattiness. Lowering my voice to force them to shut up. I give one firmly spoken warning, "you might want to hear this" at a volume everyone can hear. Then proceed at slightly slower pace but lower tone.
Pretty soon the players will either a, learn to live with walking into the dragon's den flatfooted or more likely b, police themselves.
The other method is to have the players do something either uncomfortable or silly looking or both to have extended conversations OOC. Example, hands on head, thumbing their noses while speaking etc. (usually works best with a younger group).
I've played mapping everything and mapping nothing (for players). Both ways work well if you're comfortable. Mapping on the fly though is tougher than prepared maps. Any of the prepared methods mentioned works well if you are having trouble mapping on the fly.
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Talk really fast, like the old Micro-Machines guy
Drink tons of coffee
Reduce all descriptions to bullet points
Pre-roll every villain's rolls with a sheet of extras if the baddies last longer than expected
Limit it to one bio-break a night. Period. Anyone else but that one guy's gotta hold it
Give each player a set of blinders
Electricity
... or just go with everyone else's awesome suggestions 'cause they've already mentioned all the other ones.
I abandoned "battle-mats" and miniatures except for fights in complex terrain featuring multiple adversaries. For 90% of combats, we just play them out without moving dolls around the table. It speeds up combat immeasureably -- you can get through a whole battle in the time it used to take to play out one round.
Altho ignoring stuff like Attacks of Opportunity and such can be a Good idea, this changes the rules a LOT, and is hardly for a newb.
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Ignoring the battlemat and AoOs completely invalidates several builds and feats such as the Reach Cleric, Brawler Fighter, Snap Shot archers, Whip Mastery, Trip Specialists and so on.
Yes it speeds up combat, but it does so by making options that a fun and effective become impossible to use.
Altho ignoring stuff like Attacks of Opportunity and such can be a Good idea, this changes the rules a LOT, and is hardly for a newb.
I'd argue that the Pathfinder Beginner Box ignores AoOs for a good reason. It only matters if you're already used to the way certain things work, so for a group that consists of mostly new players (or those that are experienced enough to know what the changes entail) it doesn't really matter that much if they don't use them.
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Get a deck of white 3x5 cards and a few colored 3x5 cards
Give a white 3x5 to each player and have them put:
Character name
HP
Saves
Perception skill
and anything else you want. Collect the cards
Have a RED card that just says "BAD GUYS" on it, and a BLUE card that says "START NEW ROUND"
When you roll initiative, simply arrange the cards starting with the blue card and then going through the initiative order. Call out each character to give them a chance to take their turn.
If they are distracted or not ready, throw their card on the table and tell them that they are "delaying action" and can take their turn when they make up their mind.
Go on to the next player.
This does several things.
1) it disciplines the players to stay focused when you are doing the initiative countdown. When you have the deck of cards in your hand, this is a cue to everyone at the table that it's combat time.
2) It makes initiative flow quickly and easily. Once you roll it doesn't really matter what the numbers rolled are - only that they go in the order given. If a character delays action, just put the card aside until they go - easy.
3) because the BAD GUY card is generic, you can keep the monsters on the game table with your notes, so it's easy to keep track of them.
4) The START NEW ROUND card is when battlefield events occur (terrain effects, reinforcements arrive, etc.)
5) Because you have saving throws and perception skill info, you can make these rolls in secret if you want.
I find this really speeds up play.
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I abandoned "battle-mats" and miniatures except for fights in complex terrain featuring multiple adversaries. For 90% of combats, we just play them out without moving dolls around the table. It speeds up combat immeasureably -- you can get through a whole battle in the time it used to take to play out one round.Altho ignoring stuff like Attacks of Opportunity and such can be a Good idea, this changes the rules a LOT, and is hardly for a newb.
Uh...you don't need to ignore AoO to not use a battle mat. You still take them when doing anything that provokes within the reach of an opponent, and the GM can warn things like "Okay, but to get to the Wizard you'll need to go past the Fighter, so that'll provoke an AoO without an Acrobatics check."
Works fine, and is how I usually do it.
I also have the Chessex mat. I have found Crayola Washables (the bigger ones) great for that map. Only the red and brown markers can leave a mark if you leave them on there a couple days, the other ones wash off even if left on for a week! Previously we were using the stand-by Staedler ones, big improvement in our mats life-span.
I'm also running Rotrl. I love drawing out maps and have been for the last 20 years. I have the PDF of the anniversary edition and there are so many huge lovely maps that I knew I could not do them justice. I considered using a virtual tabletop but I also love minis, Then it hit me... Combine the two! I acquired a 42" flat screen and laid it flat on my game table. Hooked up my laptop. Imported the maps from the PDF into a VT and scaled the screen to fit actual minis. It blew my players away. No more drawing no more markers! It takes prep time to get all the maps in and scaled but it is worth it by far.
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@ Don Fuller
I do the same thing, but I put it in Power Point. This lets me scale it ahead of time and create maps out of clip-art.
Also, you can use the animation functions to make shapes and pictures appear and disappear so that I an (for example) make a roof disappear to reveal the interior of the building, or make a dark area disappear to reveal the room that the party just opened the door to.
It works great, but it takes a bit of time to set up ahead of time.
I took a piece of plexiglass cut to shape and electric taped it to the screen. This lets me draw on the surface as well, and it protects the screen from Dorito crumbs and whatnot.
I also have the Chessex mat. I have found Crayola Washables (the bigger ones) great for that map. Only the red and brown markers can leave a mark if you leave them on there a couple days, the other ones wash off even if left on for a week! ...
Aha! A new one to try. Thx muchly.
I have a couple of mats and draw the encounters that will happen later on that one and then cover it with my second mat and draw the current stuff there.
Plus for "permanent" locations like a base of operations or that tavern they always go to I use the map paper that comes in rolls So I can make it any size I want.
I also had/have issues with chatting players so I made a rule that if you are at the game table and the session is in progress **ANYTHING YOU SAY - YOUR CHARACTER SAYS**
Enforce that a couple of times and they will tend to stop being so chatty - or at least they will try to preface things with "Can I say something Out of Character".
But be nice about enforcing it - I have a CN rogue player that loves to interject very graphic and overtly evil comments into situations. So the first couple of times I had asked him, "Do you really say that?" Of course he says no, and I give him a reminder. But the third time, well, the cost of his snarky remark was very costly indeed. Now if he even so much as hints at something like that coming out the rest of the players police him. :)
2 words: MODULAR DUNGEON
Go get yourself some Hirst Arts molds or Castlemolds or whatever. Take several weeks/months molding, gluing and painting hundreds of modular bits like floor tiles, walls and detail pieces. Post the pics online when you're done.
Then, hours before the game, assemble the entire dungeon the party's going to go through. Throw a sheet over it. When the players get there greet them as if nothing's out of the ordinary, then pull back the sheet to reveal the first room.
Now, as the PCs explore you simply remove the cover little by little. If you want to be really mean, you can re-settle it behind the party once they move to simulate the fog of war. Otherwise the PCs roam about opening up new places and eventually the whole dungeon is revealed.
Or, again, follow everyone else's ideas.
I use to use rolls of graph paper. I would have maps drawn out ahead of time (altho, players started to peak), but then I've gone digital now, using MapTool from RPGtools.net, and a digital projector. There are a few issues that need to be worked out (like characters going off on a tangent, and I don't have a map for it).
And the Initiative tool is realy helpful, too, that cut down on wait time in combat.