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As the title says, I'm looking for how you wonderful forumites might go about turning a plain old great wyrm red dragon into a nasty campaign ending badass of a dragon god. I've already thought about removing his vunerability to cold. Any suggestions? You can assume a party of 6 PCs at lvl 20, with access to Core, APG, UM, and UC.
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Give it mythic ranks? Bring it up to mythic rank 10. Give it "divine source" (so that it can provide divine power to it's minions) And make sure to have PLENTY of minions (at 6 level 20 PCs, they need distractions).
You can give either power to make it hit harder (champion path), magic harder (archmage path). There's a lot of things to work through though.
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How about fafhneir? I think that is how his name is spelled. From the Land of the Linnorm Kings campaign setting. Said to be the father of the Linnorm serpent dragons, he is a CR 24 and can be very nasty for even a prepared party. Just getting to him in his lair very dangerous. And for the lucky PC who delivers the final killing blow, say hello to a death curse with a will save dc of like 32. If played right, he puts red dragons in their place.
I agree with LazerX, if you want a difficult battle with a powerful dragon then we can help you craft that. But if you really want a "dragon god" then look up Aspu. The dragon god that created the multiverse. Mortals cannot possibly rival true gods. Not even mythic mortals.
If you want to craft an exceptionally difficult battle with a high level dragon you don't even need mythic. Place the dragon's lair in a volcano, with a treacherous trapped path that ends with a portal that leads to a dead magic permanencied demiplane (created via create Greater Demiplane and Permanency, which any dragon should reasonably be able to access). Watch as your high level adventurers are destroyed by a dragon in a entire realm of anti-magic.
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Hmm, I suppose that it's true that real gods should be untouchable. I don't really want to set off a wave of follow up campaigns of god murder.
I suppose then the dragon could be considered to have stolen a small fragment of divine power? Something that makes him rather more formidable than the standard setup. I sadly lack access to the mythic book, so I can't really make use of them.
I like the volcano suggestion, and was already thinking along those lines. The addition of the sneaky nook is a good, and evil, touch that will really make my players sweat.
Is there anything in particular that could be done to the dragon itself, rather than with environment and setup?
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Hmm, I suppose that it's true that real gods should be untouchable. I don't really want to set off a wave of follow up campaigns of god murder.
I suppose then the dragon could be considered to have stolen a small fragment of divine power? Something that makes him rather more formidable than the standard setup. I sadly lack access to the mythic book, so I can't really make use of them.
I like the volcano suggestion, and was already thinking along those lines. The addition of the sneaky nook is a good, and evil, touch that will really make my players sweat.
Is there anything in particular that could be done to the dragon itself, rather than with environment and setup?
What you describe is perfectly represented by the Mythic Rules.
Also,the Mythic Rules are readily available here...so you don't need the book per se.
You could either add a Mythic Path (probably either Champion or Archmage), or use the Mythic Dragon rules under Mythic Monsters.
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Hmm, I suppose that it's true that real gods should be untouchable. I don't really want to set off a wave of follow up campaigns of god murder.
I suppose then the dragon could be considered to have stolen a small fragment of divine power? Something that makes him rather more formidable than the standard setup. I sadly lack access to the mythic book, so I can't really make use of them.
I like the volcano suggestion, and was already thinking along those lines. The addition of the sneaky nook is a good, and evil, touch that will really make my players sweat.
Is there anything in particular that could be done to the dragon itself, rather than with environment and setup?
If you are willing to use 3.5 materials, and are insistent on having this change statted up (rather than by fiat), then you might want to check out the Draconomicon for the Dragon Ascendant prestige class for dragons. It is based entirely around a dragon ascending to godhood. The dragon gains Dr/Epic, a more powerful fear aura, immunity to several spell effects, and its hit points become (eventually) maximized for its hit dice.
The most cruel part of all this? It has to destroy its hoard to begin this class. All that power, and if the party wins, it doesn't get the reward it was expecting.
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Don't forget the most basic things when setting up your dragon.
Hoard: A dragon is intelligent, he should have magic items that he can use and he should be using them!
Lair: A great Wyrm has over a thousand years of experience and most likely hundreds of years in his current lair to layer defenses, both magical and mundane. Non detection, traps, teleport trap, programmed illusions, desecration, unhallowed dispel magic zones, etc. The lair should be an encounter unto itself.
Magic: Don't forget that without any levels added that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon is a 19th level sorcerer. Be sure to adjust his spell and feat list to maximize his potential.
You read these forums and the idea comes across that Pathfinder is just a "scry and fry" game of rocket tag at high levels. A dragon in it's lair can rearrange the game board and upset that entire strategy, forcing the adventurers to fight on it's terms in an environment that is most beneficial to it, not the party.
Are you familiar with Choral the Conqueror?
Fromsie has very good advice.
The dragon's spell list is probably the single most important thing. Using the treasure the dragon has in the form of magical items is probably the next most important thing. He doesn't just have all that wealth sitting there and not using any of it.
Seriously though, dragon in a plane of anti-magic is an I win button. You're players wont be able to compete. Use it, but be aware the chances of your players winning is near zero because their magic items don't funciton and neither do their spells or even supernatural abilities. But you know what does work? The dragon's damage reduciton, bite attack, and claws.
Hmm, I suppose that it's true that real gods should be untouchable. I don't really want to set off a wave of follow up campaigns of god murder.
I suppose then the dragon could be considered to have stolen a small fragment of divine power? Something that makes him rather more formidable than the standard setup. I sadly lack access to the mythic book, so I can't really make use of them.
I like the volcano suggestion, and was already thinking along those lines. The addition of the sneaky nook is a good, and evil, touch that will really make my players sweat.
Is there anything in particular that could be done to the dragon itself, rather than with environment and setup?
Simple template plus universal rules.
If it were me, I'd say just give it a non-standard combination of the agile and savage templates, with the block special ability from the invincible template.
What does this net him?
Ranks: a number of mythic ranks equal to half his hit dice (see this stuff for details), which, for a typical great red wyrm, is 14
Initiative: +20 bonus
AC: +2 dodge bonus, +2 increase to natural AC
hp: 10 points per rank
Defensive Abilities: DR 10/epic, and resistance 15 to all types of energy; evasion (as the rogue class feature); block ability; a second save
Speed: +30 feet for all movement types (up to double the creature's base movement speed)
That pretty much ensures that the action economy balances out, somewhat, while ensuring that he's pretty daggum powerful - possibly much too powerful for your party, considering all the bonus hit points. I didn't give him any of the spellcasting templates on purpose - because then you'd get into mythic spells which are... more complicated.
If you're curious...
Special Attacks: dual initiative (have two full rounds of actions: one at your actual, improved initiative [including the +20, above], and one at that initiative -20); all attacks gain bleed 1 (this stacks with itself), feral savagery (full attack)
Block Attacks (Ex)
Once per round, when the creature is hit by a melee or ranged attack, it can attempt a melee attack using its highest attack bonus. If this result exceeds the result from the attack against it, the creature is unaffected by the attack (as if the attack had missed).
and
Dual Initiative (Ex)
The monster gets two turns each round, one on its initiative count and another on its initiative count – 20. For example, if the monster's initiative is 23, for its first turn it could make a full attack (and take a 5 foot step) at initiative 23, and for its second turn at initiative 3 it could take a move action and cast a spell. This allows the monster to perform two actions per round that normally take an entire round, such as using a summon monster spell. For the purposes of spells and effects that have a duration of a round or longer or trigger at the beginning of the creature's round or the start of its turn such as saving throws against ongoing effects or taking bleed damage), only the monster's first turn each round counts toward such durations.
Format: +21/+1; Location: Initiative.
and
Feral Savagery (Su)
Under the circumstances listed in the monster's stat block—such as when it makes a full attack or a rend attack—it can immediately attempt an additional attack against an opponent. This attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. This additional attack doesn't stack with similar means of gaining additional attacks, such as the haste spell or a speed weapon. This ability doesn't grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.
Format: feral savagery (full attack); Location: special attacks.
and
Second Save (Ex)
Whenever the creature fails a saving throw against an effect with a duration greater than 1 round, it can keep trying to shake off the effect. At the start of its turn, if it's still affected, it can attempt the save one more time as a free action. If this save succeeds, the effect affects the creature as if it had succeeded at its initial saving throw.
If the effect already allows another saving throw on a later turn to break the effect (such as for hold monster), this ability is in addition to the extra saving throw from the effect.
Format: second save; Location: after saving throws.
Of course, if that's not enough for you, there's always this stuff:
Dragon Blood (Su)
The mythic dragon's blood and other fluids are infused with acid, cold, electricity, or fire, matching the dragon's breath weapon energy type. Every time the dragon is damaged by a piercing or slashing weapon, the attacking creature takes energy damage according to Table: Dragon Blood Damage (or double damage if the attack is a critical hit). Using a reach weapon does not endanger the attacker in this way. If the dragon has the swallow whole ability, it adds this damage to its swallow whole damage.
Table: Dragon Blood Damage
Dragon Size: Points of Energy Damage
Medium or smaller: 1d4
Large: 1d6
Huge: 1d8
Gargantuan: 2d6
Colossal: 2d8Format: dragon blood (2d6 fire); Location: Defensive Abilities.
and
Dragon Cantrips (Su)
If the mythic dragon is able to cast arcane spells, it automatically knows all cantrips for its equivalent spellcasting class and can cast them at will.
Format: dragon cantrips; Location: SQ.
and
Dragon Fury (Su)
If a mythic dragon confirms a critical hit with a natural weapon, it adds its dragon blood damage to the damage dealt by the natural attack.
Format: dragon fury (1d6 fire); Location: Special Attacks.
Or just use this guy.
Or some combination of them.
Hope that helps!
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If you want to take it a step above even mythic, 3.5e had actual rules for stating out deities. Deities that where stated out in 3.5e had piles of immunities and abilities so overpowered that even the mightiest of epic-level characters, complete with the borked epic spellcasting mechanics, where greatly challenged if not outright dominated by a properly built deity. If you're looking for a truly "god-like" dragon, these rules can be ported to pathfinder with little to no fuss and can be found for free on the D20 SRD, specifically here.
Since your game is not in epic levels I'd keep this guy's divine rank fairly low, and most likely have some kind of MacGuffen or other way to allow the players to bypass at least some of his crazy immunities. Divine ranks would not preclude mythic, though, and the two in my mind could and actually would work well together, provided the dragon's divine ranks where kept low. If your PCs are fighting a deity like this, though, you may also consider giving them some kind of temporary powerup(possible temporary mythic powers, or the aforementioned MacGuffen) as fighting 3.5e stated deities pre-epic levels was nigh impossible in 3.5e. (Unless you where pun-pun....)
If you want to take it a step above even mythic, 3.5e had actual rules for stating out deities. Deities that where stated out in 3.5e had piles of immunities and abilities so overpowered that even the mightiest of epic-level characters, complete with the borked epic spellcasting mechanics, where greatly challenged if not outright dominated by a properly built deity. If you're looking for a truly "god-like" dragon, these rules can be ported to pathfinder with little to no fuss and can be found for free on the D20 SRD, specifically here.
Since your game is not in epic levels I'd keep this guy's divine rank fairly low, and most likely have some kind of MacGuffen or other way to allow the players to bypass at least some of his crazy immunities. Divine ranks would not preclude mythic, though, and the two in my mind could and actually would work well together, provided the dragon's divine ranks where kept low. If your PCs are fighting a deity like this, though, you may also consider giving them some kind of temporary powerup(possible temporary mythic powers, or the aforementioned MacGuffen) as fighting 3.5e stated deities pre-epic levels was nigh impossible in 3.5e. (Unless you where pun-pun....)
Specifically, he'd need a divine rank 0, or have really terrible divine power choices to be really beatable. Otherwise, the party's pretty much out.
Also, worth noting again, mythic can have a really big impact on power - some of it relatively subtle. So it's easy to get a TPK with it.
I'd recommend after statting the creature up, mythic, divine, or just advanced, making a few educated "guesstimates" about how your party looks at 20th, and run through a few potential scenarios to make sure it's winnable by your table's play-standards.
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Yeah, if you where going to run a game with the dragon having a divine rank divine rank 0-1(depending on how optimized your party is) would be about the max I would go, since this isn't epic-level 3.5e. If you where to do that, I'd most likely stack some mythic tiers on this guy as well, depending, since all divine rank 0 gives is a buttload of immunities and a few other static bonuses. If going divine rank 1-2, then he will have some abilites to play around with from his godly-ness, but be sure to pick ones that won't break the game. If you want help with this, I can point you to some of the "weaker" ones. If this guy has clerics to whom he grants spells, he will need to be, at minimum, a divine rank 1 deity. If he dosen't grant spells then I'd stick him at 0 to make him more manageable for your players. Giving the dragon a divine rank of 0 + mythic abilities, with either archmage or mythic dragon, would be in my mind, what would make him feel the most "god-like." However, if divine rank 0 would make him too difficult to take down mythic can have largely the same effect on it's own, but he won't -technically- be a God...
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Yeah, if you where going to run a game with the dragon having a divine rank divine rank 0 would be about the max I would go, since this isn't epic-level 3.5e. If you where to do that, I'd most likely stack some mythic tiers on this guy as well, depending, since all divine rank 0 gives is a buttload of immunities and a few other static bonuses. Giving the dragon a divine rank of 0 + mythic abilities, with either archmage or mythic dragon, would be in my mind, what would make him feel the most "god-like." However, if divine rank 0 would make him too difficult to take down mythic can have largely the same effect on it's own, but he won't -technically- be a God...
Hehe. Sorry to derail, but just had to smile at someone called Takhisis talking about the divinity of Dragons. Sorta like watching Stephen Hawking teach high school physics :D
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@ Matt: I thank you for the complement. In fact, you've amused me enough that I'll grant you a single level in either cleric of Takhisis or the dracolyte prestige class, depending on whether or not you have divine spellcasting already. Of course, should you accept this free level, you willingly join my faith and will have to abide by all it's tenant and the agreement may also result in a forced alignment shift. Also, all of this will be considered a binding, spiritual contract for all intents and purposes. However, putting all that fine print aside it is a free level.....and the domination domain is pretty good; you cannot deny the fact monstrous thrall and true dominate are some of the best enchantment spells in existence. ;)
A normal red great wyrm is CR 22 if it is alone against a party a few numbers on top wont help it a lot. But give it +3 on most numbers and an extra standart or swift action pr round to simulate the stolen power and it may be something even if it is alone. Make sure it known the place they figth well and that it is smart and you May just manage a TPK in the end figth.
Check out 20 Variant Foes: Red Dragons by Rite Publishing, (free preview available here). Top CR is 30 with a very unusual NPC Seer Hekkush whose complete statblock is in the free preview.
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It's really not that hard to TPK a party with a really big dragon.
Most DM's don't because they don't use the Dragon's really game winning ability..... It's not spells, not the breath weapon, not the bite, or claws, or wing strikes, or even the tail sweep.
It's Crush.
Or, as one player in my group put it:
"Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw... Bite, Tail... Prone!"(from directly above the poor sap)