Finally on the last pc. Going to be a wizard, race TBD. We're going thru RotRL soon. The rest of the group includes a human ranger, a half-orc inquisitor of Erastil, a half-elf zen archer monk & a catfolk barbarian (homebrew alternate racial traits).
Here's the dilemma: the player likes both Treantmonk's God-wizard build and KBrewer's Blockbuster-wizard build. What I'm looking for is advice on how best to mash the two together into a functional build - what would you recommend taking from each build? I'm trying to decide between suggesting Admixture or Conjuration schools, as well as which feats, traits, spells to recommend to the player. I realize by mixing the two that some things will be less than optimal, but we're not really an optimizing type of group anyway.
All help is appreciated!
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Build a Blaster and prepare both Battlefield Control and Blast spells. In combat, first accomplish your primary objective of effectively controlling the battlefield, then blast away. Possibly do both at once.
Heck, Wizards are so strong, just choose a fun Wizard concept and play it. Even without optimization you'll have a viable character.
I'd suggest Admixture rather than Conjuration (Teleportation). Being able to switch energy types for blast spells is something that is otherwise tricky to do. Definately take the trait Magical Lineage and the feats Spell Focus (Evocation) and Spell Specialization to round out the Blockbuster skill set. Once you have those, then check which is being used more, blasting or summoning. If you want to summon, the Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augument Summoning path lies ahead. Find room for Improved Initiative, Improved Familiar, Spell Penetration and suddenly you're feat starved like the rest of us. A Blockbuster Wizard often needs to act like a God wizard when fighting BBEG's anyway so with the versatility of arcane spells at your disposable mixing the two styles isn't too difficult.
God wizarding doesn't require as much feat support to be viable; if your player is really wanting to try and do both, I'd suggest just building a Blockbuster more-or-less as the guide describes, and then prepare more standard God Wizard spells and less fireballs. And embrace the Dazing Fireballs.
This was kind of what I was thinking. I figure Improved Initiative can wait for a bit if his familiar gives an initiative bonus (greensting scorpion, compsagnathus, etc). Magical Lineage (fireball) also seemed like the stronger play, along with Dazing. Between Spell Focus/Specialization, he should be fairly solid as a blaster without needing to go too crazy on the metamagics. With Admixture, this also only requires him to take a couple of blasting type spells, since he can change the element type.
At 1st lvl, Ray of Frost (1d3+1, attacks touch ac, unlimited use) is his go-to attack spell, as in the guide, with Burning Hands available for more serious punch. Remaining spells go towards battlefield control ( Silent Image, Grease, Color Spray, etc) with a smattering of utility spells. Then, he's grabbing Fireball at 5th lvl. I'm also going to recommend he makes more use of Scribe Scroll for those situational spells.
His first two feats are Spell Focus (Evocation) & Spell Specialization (Burning Hands) Specialization gets moved to Fireball when available. I'll probably recommend Spell Penetration soon after (he won't be an elf or half-elf), along with Spell Focus (Conjuration). Afterwards, he can decide if he wants to move into the Augment Summoning line or go a different direction. Improved Familiar at 7th level, but optional, with Improved Initiative (it can wait a bit b/c of the familiar) also a priority around this time.
Have I got it about right? I know much of it is just repeating what was in the guide, but I want to make sure I have it in the right order myself before I sit down with the player...
I recently made a wizard and decided that I was gonna dump Abjuration (we have a cleric) and Evocation (we have a witch with the elements patron) despite how bad that sounds. I knew going into it that this was a bad idea, but I was surprised how little I missed fireballing things. The Cleric player kept flipping out about it until the witch hit a dragon turtle with ill omen and I suggested that it surrender, give us all its treasure and go to jail. You can still play a god wizard effectively even though a focused blaster is stronger.
Blaster builds are really only viable if you use Dazing Spell or Rime Spell. As a GM I have banned these because they're so overwhelming powerful. And what is important to note is that these metamagic feats aren't actually about blasting, they're about battlefield control/status infliction. Which is the point of the god wizard. Otherwise you're just lobbing around damage. Now sure, lobbing around damage is fun, but compared to a Black Tentacles spell or a well placed pit it's not nearly as effective at helping you win the battle with minimal damage. Which is the whole goal of combat, deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible while avoiding as much damage as possible.
Dazing Spell and Rime spell turned the blaster caster into the god wizard, merging everyone's love or rolling large dice pools into the effectiveness of battlefield control.
In any event, Magda has the right of it. Focus your build into a blaster build and then prepare battlefield control spells in conjunction with your blasts. You don't need to specialize in the battlefield control spells to make them particularly effective.
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Dazing Spell made the God Wizard in that guide obsolete.
Not entirely. A lot of the draw of a God Wizard is knowing that you were the one who completely won that battle but allowing your allies to bask in the glory of actually killing everything. It can be difficult to de-emphasize your contribution when it's all explodey and requires you to roll a bunch of damage dice.
One piece of advice for every Blockbuster Wizard.
Be Kind.... Rewind.
*Groans*
A well built corssblooded sorcerer or Wizard dipping into crossblooded can reach damage levels which do end encounters out of the gate. It isn't as effective as the Dazing/Control version but it can be made to work.
True, but I was only giving consideration to Wizards themselves. And it's really only sorcerers who take crossblooded to double dip on the damage bonus bloodlines that can truly rack-up the damage for their spells. And while it can be a encounter ender, you still admit it's not as strong a using control.
If you want to go down the damage route as a wizard you need the crossblooded dip. Your damage will be very subpar without it. +2 damage/dice is simply a huge boost when you are adding 30-50 static damage on your main nuke spells.A well built corssblooded sorcerer or Wizard dipping into crossblooded can reach damage levels which do end encounters out of the gate. It isn't as effective as the Dazing/Control version but it can be made to work.True, but I was only giving consideration to Wizards themselves. And it's really only sorcerers who take crossblooded to double dip on the damage bonus bloodlines that can truly rack-up the damage for their spells. And while it can be a encounter ender, you still admit it's not as strong a using control.
I just hate the fact that it's necessary to do that as a wizard. The only way to deal viable damage means you must dip specifically into cross-blooded sorcerer or you are ineffective compared to what you could have been doing.
It makes me want to ban cross-blooded sorcerers from my home games. Or at least restrict it to applying only to those spells cast using sorcerer spell slots. That sounds like the way to go actually. New house rule!
Lets compare two different casters. One is a straight level 11 Wizard, the other Wizard 10/Sorcerer 1. Each has Varisian Tattoo, Spell Specialisation (Fireball), Magical Lineage and a Blazing Robe. Each is looking to cast the biggest metamagicked fireball they can. For these purposes neither is using a Rod (or more likely Staff of the Master).
Our straight Wizard has access to level 6 spell slots. He can cast Intensified Maximised Fireball at Caster Level 15 for 90 damage before saves. He can go intensified Empowered to use a lower level spell slot but will be doing 22d6 damage for an average of 77 before saves. He could use that spare spell slot for something like Piercing.
Our Sorcerer/Wizard doesnt as yet have level 6 spell slots. He is casting Intensified Empowered Fireballs at Caster Level 14 for 21d6+42 damage for an average of 116 damage before saves.
At higher levels it starts getting worse and worse, especially at 15th when Spell Perfection enters the equation and both are casting a quickened spell as well.
The straight wizard will get more blasts, the dipping wizard will do more damage. Given HP are binary, an opponent is either up and fully capable of acting or not I would always go for more damage if I wanted to blast.
Oh I'm aware, but it's horse s&*~ that the only way to be effective blaster wizard is to take a single level in sorcerer. Not to mention that single level just gives way too much power over time. It just doesn't sit right with me.
If you want to go down the damage route as a wizard you need the crossblooded dip. Your damage will be very subpar without it. +2 damage/dice is simply a huge boost when you are adding 30-50 static damage on your main nuke spells.A well built corssblooded sorcerer or Wizard dipping into crossblooded can reach damage levels which do end encounters out of the gate. It isn't as effective as the Dazing/Control version but it can be made to work.True, but I was only giving consideration to Wizards themselves. And it's really only sorcerers who take crossblooded to double dip on the damage bonus bloodlines that can truly rack-up the damage for their spells. And while it can be a encounter ender, you still admit it's not as strong a using control.I just hate the fact that it's necessary to do that as a wizard. The only way to deal viable damage means you must dip specifically into cross-blooded sorcerer or you are ineffective compared to what you could have been doing.
It makes me want to ban cross-blooded sorcerers from my home games. Or at least restrict it to applying only to those spells cast using sorcerer spell slots. That sounds like the way to go actually. New house rule!
You seem to ban a lot of stuff...just curious at what point does banning things because they are the only way to make a build effective make no builds effective?
Looking at it from the perspective of being a sorcerer, the crossblooded sorcerer 1/ admixture wizard x build is always going to be stronger than sorcerer x+1. I tried to make a blaster who was straight classed, and the only thing not clearly inferior was marid bloodline, because unlimited swap whatever for cold damage plus spontaneous spellcasting lets you throw rime fireballs from level 6. I kinda hate how the math works out, but that's how the math works out.
A wizard trying to be it all is not gonna be either. I suggest your player make a wizard and pick feats and spells and stuff without Reading optimizer guides. Trying to be both glass cannon and GOD( to use treantmonk) at the same time Will end up with him being, what treantmonk calls waste of space, if i remember correctly.
You seem to ban a lot of stuff...just curious at what point does banning things because they are the only way to make a build effective make no builds effective?
I ban things so that martials don't look worthless by comparison to casters. But you are right, it does take quite a bit of banning to bridge the gap.
At Capt. Darling;
To some degree, this was part of what I was trying to get advice on. In my OP, I was asking for ideas/suggestions on how to best merge the two build ideas, if it can be done effectively. As mentioned, we are not a bunch who are big on optimization. Even so, I don't want to handicap the pc by doing this.
My oldest son & I are the only ones who are really familiar with the optimizer guides, and we simply use them for advice & tips on how to make characters better - not the 'bible' on how to build. Out of 5 players, I have just one true newbie & 1 with limited experience... the rest all have decent gaming experience. Minus the newbie, this group took their 1st lvl pc's (previous campaign) & wiped out 2 owlbears through tactical superiority, without any optimization help.....
at andreww, I agree about dazing/arcane, with the exceptions of not having access to the "metamagic master" regional trait (backs everything up 2 levels) and games that will spend little time past level 7 (sadly very common for me).
at OP, as long as the new player is comfortable with a prepared caster, they will do fine. Taking Enchantment and Necromancy as banned schools, getting a useful school power (Admixture, Foresight, Teleportation), and picking feats and traits that will help being a caster is really enough to make a good wizard. The class is structured in a very forgiving way compared to a spontaneous caster, if your spells aren't working you can get new spells tomorrow.
at OP, as long as the new player is comfortable with a prepared caster, they will do fine. Taking Enchantment and Necromancy as banned schools, getting a useful school power (Admixture, Foresight, Teleportation), and picking feats and traits that will help being a caster is really enough to make a good wizard. The class is structured in a very forgiving way compared to a spontaneous caster, if your spells aren't working you can get new spells tomorrow.
Yup, Necromancy & Enchantment actually were the opposition schools I had in mind. And I think Admixture will work well for my player, although I do wish the 8th level power was better... thanks for the input.
At Capt. Darling;
To some degree, this was part of what I was trying to get advice on. In my OP, I was asking for ideas/suggestions on how to best merge the two build ideas, if it can be done effectively. As mentioned, we are not a bunch who are big on optimization. Even so, I don't want to handicap the pc by doing this.
My oldest son & I are the only ones who are really familiar with the optimizer guides, and we simply use them for advice & tips on how to make characters better - not the 'bible' on how to build. Out of 5 players, I have just one true newbie & 1 with limited experience... the rest all have decent gaming experience. Minus the newbie, this group took their 1st lvl pc's (previous campaign) & wiped out 2 owlbears through tactical superiority, without any optimization help.....
My point was that he will only really have actions to do one of the things. so he may as well be good at it but. if he want to have both haste and Fireballs for every figth he will end up being the guy with the wrong tool and the group wont know where he is in the plan. if he is relatively new i suggest he go with Treantmonk and just blast in his sparetime:)
I think he's interested in laying down some battlefield control 1st, then switching to some blasting so he's not standing around twiddling thumbs once the BC is set. So I'm trying to figure out how to make him a (at least somewhat) more efficient blaster.
The player in question is my dad - he DM'ed our very 1st AD&D campaigns way back in the day. He's not yet familiar with PF rules, but not inexperienced as a gamer...
Background-wise, he's considering the Lore Seeker trait to go with Magical Lineage - using the idea from the trait that he's trying to study the ancient Thassilonians through artifacts & monuments. He's using Sandpoint as a less competitive base of operations. I'd like to find something a little less obvious, but it'll do if we don't come up with something else.
If he is from Sandpoint or has spent significant time there he should consider the trait Favored Son. Knowing someone you can sell treasure to for 60% value not 50% value is a really good benefit, and if you are the DM then it should be easy to make sure he got enough but not too much use from it.
I've been pretty much of the mind that he's not going to want to have anything to do with melee if he can help it, so most of those feats aren't likely to be as big a deal. Given how much more valuable feats are now, he probably won't be able to invest in most of them anyway. The group isn't short on melee-capable members, so he should be able to hide behind the BSF meat shields effectively. Also, the inquisitor (who'll be helping out as party buffer) is going for reach melee with a longspear, so he'll be able to stay back with the wizard for additional protection as needed.
As such, he should be able to focus on his spellcasting feats, including metamagics as available. Getting past SR will be another thing to consider after a few levels as well (as pointed out above).
@Greg; the ranger is most likely going to be the local character, so Favored Son/Daughter would be a better fit for her, but your point about treasure & wealth is valid.
You can do it with a conjurer as well. Snowball, Acid Arrow, Ice Spears, Acid Pit, Hungry Pit, Caustic Eruption. All deal damage, all can have Dazing attached to them, all of them ignore SR.
Dazing Golems with Acid Arrow then having the rest of your party reduce them to rubble is hilarious.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see Ice Spears or Snow Ball anywhere on the PRD spell list (that's my primary reference site for game purposes). Also, Caustic Eruption hits EVERYTHING around you. The pit spells are solid, but Fireball is available two levels earlier...
My player has already declared he isn't playing any kind of elf...
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but here's the thing. If YOU are building the character for HIM then he is not invested enough in learning the rules to play a wizard.
A well-played wizard character takes dedication. You have to learn your spells, know what they do, what they DON'T do and what kind of weird situations you might want to use them in.
If the character is being built by anyone other than the player, he's not going to be able to handle a wizard past about level 5.
Give him a sorcerer instead.
If I have that wrong, then I agree with the "go straight blast wizard and load up on spells" idea.
I'm trying to decide between suggesting Admixture or Conjuration schools, as well as which feats, traits, spells to recommend to the player.
I'm looking for advice on what to suggest to the player when we sit down together to make this character up. But thank you for the last bit. :)
Not familiar with this one (sorry I missed it earlier), will have to look it up...
One major problem I found with the Enhancement Transmuter is the ability bonuses are all of the (...wait for it...) enhancement type.
Thus, they will not stack with any magic weapons, headbands, etc. OK for lower levels, or in low-magic campaigns, not so much otherwise... The spell list is still solid, though.
You'll already find a lot of the kids out there won't get the reference... goodbye, vhs - say hi to beta & laserdisc for me.
I haven't used any discs of any kind in at least two years. Now that I gave my PS3 and 360 away to young cousins, I don't even have the capability of playing discs even if I wanted to. My current PC has no disc drive at all. Games come from Steam, movies and TV shows come from Netflix. Physical media just winds up feeling like needless clutter.
One major problem I found with the Enhancement Transmuter is the ability bonuses are all of the (...wait for it...) enhancement type.
Thus, they will not stack with any magic weapons, headbands, etc. OK for lower levels, or in low-magic campaigns, not so much otherwise... The spell list is still solid, though.
Enhancement yes, but Physical Enhancement can be used to boost any physical score needed (say Con for the hit points).
Augment can be used 3+Int times/day and lasts half your level in rounds, so can be an effective combat buff (as it can also boost armour class too).
But Perfection of Self is the gimme, your level times a day it is a swift action to add half your level to a stat for one round - that will be superior to a stat enhancement item even if it doesn't stack (between +4 when it comes online @ 8th level to +10 @ 20th).
So yes, it doesn't stack with Enhancement Bonus items however you can have a solid survivable Wizard who can 'hit the nitrous button' and send his save DC's through the roof - I think they would make a great blaster or enchanter type.
Fair point on Perfection of Self, and Physical Enhancement is respectable as well- especially being able to change it every time you prepare spells.
Still not sure about Augment, though...