Agreed across the board. I would add that the Paladin could lose the doubling effect of his Smite and be fine.Not only is Paladin a balanced class, it's one of the best balanced classes in the game. In fact, the only changes I'd make to it would be giving it 4+Int skills per level and add Kn(Planes) and Intimidate to their list of class skills
Paladins shine when they are supposed to shine. They help on pretty much every situation without stealing the thunder of other (balanced) classes.
If Fighters are overshadowed by Paladins, this is a problem with the Fighter class, not Paladins.
The doubling is only for the first successful hit...I had that confused the first couple nights but was quickly corrected.
Soooo one hit with an extra +X... I suppose it COULD go, but I don't see it as breaking.
It's not a big thing, but it's a visible thing. Trade that off for the improvements in skills and I'm happy.
As I mentioned earlier though, I prefer our alignment changes to the Paladin above all.
I will agree with most of what has been said, but I wanted to make a couple of points more clear.
You stated, "...the vast majority of what you face will be evil..." that is not necessarily true. Some campaigns/GM's will have you facing off against a whole lot of neutral or even good creatures.
b)If the serious combats tend to be single opponents and not very many serious encounters each day, then yes. He can smite in every important fight. However, if all 6 encounters have significant risk and are against multiple opponents... Well, then he will have to do some picking and choosing.
c)Do none of the bad guys ever learn anything about these pesky adventurers that are stomping through their organization? When appropriate, an intelligent opponent should learn from their mauled organization that the shining knight can't be easily affected by many spells. So then starts sending in a bunch of casters using non-save ray spells, vicious but stupid (neutral) dangerous beasts, etc...
I would not say the paladin in general is unbalanced. I would say it is close to the top end. I would also say for some campaigns/GM's it can be a bit overpowering.
It's not a big thing, but it's a visible thing. Trade that off for the improvements in skills and I'm happy.
While I don't think it's necessary to remove the double Smite damage thing, I do agree that having more skills and slightly better list of class skills would be preferable to having higher damage.
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On a separate note, for those who have problems dealing with Paladins, here are a few ideas that work very well for me. (One of my players is a Paladins, and the whole group uses really high point-buy, so if I can deal with that, so can you!)
The obvious choice is throwing non-evil enemies against them. Neutral or even Good NPCs can be in opposition to a Paladin's goals. Sometimes Diplomacy is simply not possible or effective enough.
Also, instead of making encounters with a single evil enemy, make some with more creatures... Instead of a CR 9 Demon, use two CR 7 Undead... Having one big enemy is often not a good idea anyway, as action economy will kill it faster than any Smite Evil ever could!
Paladins do not fly or see invisible enemies. They don't automatically hurt incorporeal creatures or ignore difficult terrain either. My Players had a lot of trouble against a Ghost Anti-Paladin, even though that's a very evil enemy.
They also had a rather difficult fight in a tunnel filled with webs, where the cursed spiders could move freely, but for them, it was considered difficult terrain.
Swarms are another good option, as long as you don't abuse it. In case they lack a good blaster, they should at least buy a few alchemist's fires.
Also, their saves are good, but not infallible, especially their Reflex save. Throw in a few explosions or creatures with poisonous fangs and the Paladin will eventually fail a save.
Paladins are terrible at stealth, and not much better in Perception. They lack the skill points, wear heavy armor and have a freaking aura of good that can possibly tell every bad guy where Mr.Holy Champion is.
Take them by surprise. Detect Evil can help with that to an extent, but it's not always reliable.
What if the enemy is not evil? What if it can conceal its alignment? What if Detect Evil doesn't work properly for some other reason?
My players are currently in a underground city plagued with a very powerful, very evil curse. Whenever the Paladin tries to use Detect Evil, he has to make a Will save to avoid a headache. Since there is so much evil around, he detects everything, which means he effectively detects nothing.
Is the Paladin a melee character? Throw some creatures using ranged attacks. Is he using a bow? What about a stormy night? Snow and fog also work. The beauty is that most of these things can be used against many other classes as well.
Paladins are an awesome class, and very well-balanced, IMHO. Their options are great, but still limited.
Remember, better than nullifying his abilities, a better adventure is one where he has to use all of those abilities to succeed!
Kinda like a Superman book, where you could defeat him by throwing a piece of kryptonite at his feet, but that's kinda boring... Instead, it's more fun when the enemy forces Superman to use all his powers as well as his cunning in order to succeed!
Sometimes that means a using a villain who is equally powerful, like Darkseid, but many other times, that means using a villain who is clever enough to put Superman in a situation where the only possible way to victory is using all his resources to the best of his ability, like Lex Luthor.
FWIW, this is my favorite straight Paladin build, complete with out-of-combat skills. The one I'm running through Wrath of the Righteous looks a bit different as a Tiefling with an Oracle dip.
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Human 20th level Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Focused Study racial trait
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 16 (+2 racial modifier)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 12 (+1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Traits:
Militia (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)
Omen (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill, attempt Demoralize as a swift action 1/day)
Feats:
1st - Fey Foundling
1st - Skill Focus: Intimidate
3rd - Power Attack
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
8th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Furious Focus
11th - Dreadful Carnage
13th - Divine Interference
15th - Extra Lay on Hands
16th - Skill Focus: Knowledge - Planes
17th - Extra Lay on Hands
19th - Greater Mercy
Skills:
Intimidate* (1-20)
Survival* (1-20)
Handle Animal* (1)
Ride* (2)
Knowledge: Planes (3-20)
Every Extra Lay on Hands can be either bonus heals or a bonus Smite so there's great versatility there and I love Divine Intervention as a 'crit stopper'. As stated, there are LOTS of ways for a Tank to Tank.
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I find the Paladin to be overpowered.
I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
To those who claim the evil-only restriction on Smite Evil is actually a valid limiting factor, answer me this: When is the last time you ran or played in a campaign where the climactic encounter, the final boss fight, was with some neutral creature?
"Kneel before me, Plaino, King of the Neutrals! Seize them, my beige, unaffiliated minions!"
Whenever someone tells me with a straight face that Smite Evil is perfectly balanced because it only works on evil, all I can think of is the Neutrals from Futurama.
"What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
To those who claim the evil-only restriction on Smite Evil is actually a valid limiting factor, answer me this: When is the last time you ran or played in a campaign where the climactic encounter, the final boss fight, was with some neutral creature?
"Kneel before me, Plaino, King of the Neutrals! Seize them, my beige, unaffiliated minions!"
Whenever someone tells me with a straight face that Smite Evil is perfectly balanced because it only works on evil, all I can think of is the Neutrals from Futurama.
"What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
So, how is this not a problem with the fighter, rather than the paladin? Fix the fighter, and the Paladin no longer seems OP.
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I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
To those who claim the evil-only restriction on Smite Evil is actually a valid limiting factor, answer me this: When is the last time you ran or played in a campaign where the climactic encounter, the final boss fight, was with some neutral creature?
Fought a Tarrasque not that long ago as the BBNG. Also had an evil wizard with a bunch of non-evil golems fairly recently. Even had a Lawful Good BBGG who was just mislead and doing the wrong thing for the right reasons and couldn't be dissuaded. Ran an aquatic campaign with my friends a while back where probably 80% of the encounters were with neutral sea monsters.
I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
To those who claim the evil-only restriction on Smite Evil is actually a valid limiting factor, answer me this: When is the last time you ran or played in a campaign where the climactic encounter, the final boss fight, was with some neutral creature? ...
Probably less than 20% of the time has the final boss been neutral. But that is just one encounter out of an entire career.
However, in many campaigns, probably around 50% of the other serious/dangerous but non-final encounters are with neutral or even a few good opponents.
{Currently we are in Carrion Crown and yes, almost everything is evil.}
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Being flat out better than one of the weakest classes in the game is not really a very high bar to get over.I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
Just saying this over & over & over does not make it true.
Actually there more evil foes there are, the rougher the choices are for Paladins when Smites are limited, and most of the encounters are not of the single critter type....
{Currently we are in Carrion Crown and yes, almost everything is evil.}
True, but it has usually been fairly easy to say, "Ok the evil godling, vampire necromancer, etc... is clearly worth using a smite on. The rest are just clutter." I think the paladin has only seriously been inconvenienced by the smite limitation a few times and we're about 80% done with the AP.
You guys do realize that Smite evil has limited uses per day, right? It doesn't matter if there are a million evil enemies. The Paladin will still only be able to Smite 2~3 of them during most of his career.
Admittedly, Oath of Vengeance archetype gets lots of Smites per day, but it also seriously nerfs one of the most powerful Paladin abilities: Aura of Justice.
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The problem isn't the AP, it's the optimization level. I see a lot of folks give 20 or 25 points, plus high WBL. They also allow everything from every book. That last increases power a lot. Some groups also have 5-6 players.
Even Core only, 15 PB, a decently optimized party will ANNIHILATE a single target baddy.
You won't see BBEG having bloodlines and regional feats, etc from all across Golarion spanning a half dozen handbooks.
You will when I re-build 'em for my own use. =p
No, that would instead be 14 years of experience with the 3.x rules set and its inheritor.Just saying this over & over & over does not make it true.Being flat out better than one of the weakest classes in the game is not really a very high bar to get over.I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
You are trying to pull the "I am more experienced than you" meme with the wrong guy, dude- seriously. :-)
Only 14 years?
Get off my lawn, you durn kid! :-)
The problem isn't the AP, it's the optimization level. I see a lot of folks give 20 or 25 points, plus high WBL. They also allow everything from every book. That last increases power a lot. Some groups also have 5-6 players.Even Core only, 15 PB, a decently optimized party will ANNIHILATE a single target baddy.
You won't see BBEG having bloodlines and regional feats, etc from all across Golarion spanning a half dozen handbooks.You will when I re-build 'em for my own use. =p
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?
Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
You are trying to pull the "I am more experienced than you" meme with the wrong guy, dude- seriously. :-)No, that would instead be 14 years of experience with the 3.x rules set and its inheritor.Just saying this over & over & over does not make it true.Being flat out better than one of the weakest classes in the game is not really a very high bar to get over.I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
Or... He's simply acknowledging that previous editions were completely different games with completely different rules.
While experience or 3.0 might help a little with PF rules here and there, experience with 1Ed D&D and AD&D is pretty much irrelevant.
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So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
He can summon minions at the very least, and I'm sure he's got more tricks up his sleeve than most Paizo BBEGs, very few of which make it to 20th in a PC class (18th at most), and many of which are melee based.
[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.
I am well aware of who you are and your appeal to authority has little interest to me. I am emphatically not saying that I have more experience than anyone else. I am saying that 3.x has now been around for 14 years. As such the gaps, idiosyncrasies' and issues in the system are widely known as every part of it has been poured over by tens of thousands of people and tested to destruction. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge them simply demonstrates your own unfamiliarity with the current version of them game.You are trying to pull the "I am more experienced than you" meme with the wrong guy, dude- seriously. :-)
Only 14 years?
Get off my lawn, you durn kid! :-)
Aren't you the poster who brought up his " 14 years of experience "?? And then you say I appeal to authority?
Like I haven't been playing D20 as long as you? "unfamiliarity with the current version"??
Look, I admit there's some issues with the Fighter (plain, vanilla, boring) that stops me from playing it, and some issues with martials as a whole in the highest levels, but no one has yet shown that the Fighter is a 'bad class'. It's still popular, it works well as part of a team, and it's fun to play for many. For example, my highest level group has just turned 13th and Mythic One. My Sorc tactics are "boost the fighter and help him get to the BBEG" as he is a unstoppable killing machine when I do so. In fact out DM had to nerf Mythic Power attack, he was that good. Now, yes- as a solo? Maybe not- but as part of our TEAM he is by far the deadliest member.
So, just saying "fighters are teh suxxor" over & over & over doesn't make it so. Maybe in your group. But in the Designers own groups and in our, the class works fine (even if it's not my cup of tea). Would I say "Hell Yes!!" to 4SkP for the Fighter? Hell Yes! But it's not a bad class at all. You opinion does not make it true. Even your opinion and the opinion of a dozen "Just Another Guy on the Internet" doesn't make it true.... for any games but your own.
I don't have the anniversary edition but the original needs significant adjusting if it is likely to stand any sort of chance against a group benefitting from 5 years of new material.[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
On this we agree.
Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
They nerfed her in the rebuild.
==Aelryinth
You will when I re-build 'em for my own use. =pVery much this. There are very few AP boss encounters I would ever run as written. The end of Witchwar Legacy stands out as a particularly egregious example of a terrible final encounter.
hah.
Last book of WoTR. Marilith f/7. Six feats speat on Exotic Weapon proficiencies. I mean, really?
Balor lord. Six levels of rogue. I mean, really?
Lillitu interrogator/brainwasher. 6 levels of rogue. I mean, really?
==Aelryinth
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Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.
The women in RotRL are super scary, and consistently the female sub-bosses or chapter bosses managed to annihilate at least one party member. And some of them utilize defenses that the Paladin's Smite means jack-all against. We've never actually run RotRl with a Paladin in the group, but I know there several times when a thug in full plate with a hard-on for holiness would not have survived.
Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
Who's that?
Who's that?Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
Not the right thread for this, due to spoilers.
How do you feel about the class in terms of balance?
I agree with the OP that the Paladin got a touch too many improvements, no one of which was overpowered in and of itself, so I thought I would 'blue-line' the list of abilities for where I'd leave it on a re-write. Mind you, I'm not clamoring for a nerf-hammer - it works as is, it can just be a bit much on occasion.
1) SMITE: Smite is pretty straight forward. Huge burst damage, bonus to hit,bypass DR, and extra bonus damage to undead, evil dragon and evil outsiders, bonus to AC, and lasts until target is dead.2) resists paladins are hugely resistant.
a: Divine grace is a huge bonus to paladin saves
b: paladins become flat out immune to disease, and Charm and eventuallycompulsion.3) Action Economy This one seems hardest to quantify but many of the paladins special abilities cost very little to use.
A: a paladin can self heal as a swift action
B: A paladin can activate smite as a swift action.
C: a paladin gets a line of Litany spells that are very powerful and cast as swift actions.
not to mention other highly useful swift and immediate action spells
D: A paladin can pinpoint detect evil as a move action.
Another option would be to bypass Alignment and Material DR, and drop the bonus to AC.
I'd still love playing a paladin with these changes. Not necessary, but would still be reasonable.
Not the right thread for this, due to spoilers.Who's that?Actually no, there's a much earlier boss who usually whips the party unless played very stupid or on easy mode by the DM. She has resulted in much anguish and TPKs.[
So, I suppose all those post in the RotRL thread about certain BBEG TPking the party are imaginary?Sure, and what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if the player abuse a feat, trait, spell, so can the bad guys.
I'm staying away from RotRL threads because I'm playing in it right now.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't matter, they changed her spells and class levels. For some reason AC 37 was a bit high for a level 6-8 party.
==Aelryinth
Just saying this over & over & over does not make it true.Being flat out better than one of the weakest classes in the game is not really a very high bar to get over.I find the Paladin to be overpowered.I do too, mainly for the same reasons. Aside from a stray +1 here and there, paladins are flat-out superior to fighters in every possible way.
No, the numbers and mechanics make it true. People saying it over and over is just pointing out that 2+2=4 and not 3. Lets get one thing straight, no one is accusing the Fighter of not "working". The accusation is that it is a poor worker. And it is a very poor worker compared to any other worker, because its work is so incredibly niche and the benefits it gets to performing its one niche are not enough to justify it compared to the benefits other classes get to that niche.
Also unless you actually designed 3.5/PF, our years of experience with the systems are equal. I assume this is true for andreww as well. To be perfectly honest, your experience with earlier editions is likely a hindrance to objectively viewing the 3.5/PF version of the game and not the benefit you seem to believe it is. Because if that experience did help you would be able to run the numbers, judge the situations, and come to the conclusion that everyone with a sufficient amount of system mastery has that Fighter is extremely underpowered.
Blue, I can with almost certainty tell that your problem is running solo monsters against the party. The game balances very poorly around solo encounters. Enemies who are strong enough to survive against multiple characters are usually also strong enough to take down said characters in very few rounds. Thus, 2-3 rounds is completely standard for such an encounter: by this point either the boss enemy is dead, or the players are out of resources/HP.And yet Paizo insists on throwing solo encounters at us all the time in their AP's. :-/
When they do solo encounters it's usually done for few reasons. It can be a breather encounter between tough fights, to let the player flex their muscles. Solo's encounters can used to eat up resources. A solo encounter at the end of gauntlet. Like defeating an army of bad guys to get to leader cowering in his tower, the end fight is easy but the party took a beating getting there and that is the reward. Nothing like getting the bad guy alone. Solo encounter are meant to be easy.
Personally I find the Ranger more powerful than the Paladin. I've played an Inquisitor of Sarenae that is way more powerful than the Paladin in that group.
Unless Paizo starts inflating the hit points and defenses of monsters supposedly capable of being a solo challenge for a party, there's no point in running solo monster encounters. They have no chance. It's not worth the time to roll it out.
The problem isn't the AP, it's the optimization level. I see a lot of folks give 20 or 25 points, plus high WBL. They also allow everything from every book. That last increases power a lot. Some groups also have 5-6 players.
You won't see BBEG having bloodlines and regional feats, etc from all across Golarion spanning a half dozen handbooks.
The real problem is action economy and a single creature not having enough hit points to withstand attacks from 4 to 5 PCs. Even two martial characters can unleash loads of damage that a creature who uses the same HD method as a PC can't match.
I've boosted my NPCs and solo monsters accounting for higher point buy. I've also given my NPCs and monster improved feat choices. I've built them to be highly resistant to magical attacks. The one thing I can't account for without going out far outside the rules is hit points and action economy.
If a solo monster gets one round of melee attacks, that still isn't as good as two to three PCs taking all their attacks while hasted. He can't output enough damage to threaten a PC beyond what the group healer can heal. He can't cast spells while attacking. So if he attacks, he can't use magic and vice versa. So once a solo creature is engaged, it's combat choices are very limited unless it wants to open itself up to AoOs and extra damage. If it tries to disengage, that takes more non-combat actions while the PCs are taking combat actions. Not only is that extremely unfavorable action economy, but it is also creates an action value deficit highly in favor of the PCs.
If a creature uses PC hit point generation methods, they won't have enough to withstand a PC party's attacks. The discrepancy becomes worse and worse as they level. A solo monster might get 2d10 more hit points while a PC gets another attack, more damage from Power Attack, and combat abilities in general. The hit points can't keep up with the offensive capabilities.
I've had to go way outside the rules. I've given solo monsters in excess of a 1000 or more hit points. This allows them to stand in toe to toe battle as they should be able to do for 3 or 4 rounds of more. I gave a gate guardian Crag Linnorm 2500 hit points to make sure this ancient, legendary creature that guarded a gate for thousands of years would last a while in battle. It did. It's damage output was so low, the healer never let anyone reach near death.
I consider making sure these factors work the way they should my job as a DM. It's very difficult for Paizo game designers to account for character, party size, build, and other such variables. I take care of it.
One thing I would like to see from Paizo is hit point buffing of large solo monsters. They've given constructs a size bonus for hit points. I'd like to see them create legendary type defenses for certain creatures like dragons and other over-sized creatures that give them a ton of hit points and better defenses so they can perform their job in a story. Right now a well built PC party can level an ancient dragon in 2 or 3 rounds (the equivalent of 18 seconds) or an ancient Balor in 6 to 12 seconds. That's just not right at all.
D&D/Pathfinder has had problems making challenging solo creatures for a long time. That is a definitely a design issue someone in power should put some work into. It's one of the few things I did like about 4E's monster design (though I hated minions).
Must depend on the creature/monster... I can see some humanoids having that kind of problem... but I have been in a LOT of situations lately against some monster with 6 attacks... and 10-20' reach that just TEARS players UP!!!
My Paladin last Tuesday fought a Cyclop who round one did a crit for 50 damage... would have killed 2 of our party and the paladin hobbled back a bit with only about 18 left...
We WON the fight... but it got pretty hairy there for a while. Still the reach, AoO, and multitude of attacks goes a long way to work on that action economy...
Single wizard against a party? Yeah, that's ALWAYS been an issue in ANY game. It's REALLY hard to simulate a Dr. Doom vs. Fantastic Four or Magneto vs. X-men... Teamwork always triumphs.