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I think that the idea that there's "too much political correctness around these days" is a lie propagated by people who think that they're too cool and edgy to be considerate of others.
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Read the whole thread.
The Girdle of Opposite Gender is an item that has been use in the past as a stop gag to teach players to be mindful of what they do with items and how they go about in game with "loot."
It is a basic fix to reverse the curse, and one of the easier ones to relieve. It doesn't actually change any stats (One of my players had to spend 50 gold to resize his gear to her frame for the time she was... a she) and is basically an inconvenience more than anything else.
The funny thing is, this is a story element that is use in fiction of all kinds out there, from Fantasy to Science Fiction and everything inbetween. It isn't new, sudden or somehow different because of the overall sensitivity of today's culture.
Offensive? Not to most. It does, however, become the source of much amusement over the course of play. If your offended that mirth can come about from this item, though, there are more in life that will test your mettle and this game should not be made to adjust because of that.
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I think that the poster was speaking about the actual act of gender reassignment surgery, not gender/sex identity misalignment.TanithT... I believe (and hope) DarkLightHitomi was stating they chose to undergo transgender surgery... Not necessarily that transgendered folks choose to be transgendered. Though I could be wrong there.TG people chose to be TG, thus it is very different.Wat.
Okay, now I've found something that actually is offensive. No, it is not a choice. You have no idea how much we wish it were. :/
If a transgendered person wishes to seek gender confirmation surgery, they do so to alleviate the body/mind incongruity that is too disruptive to ignore. They aren't confused, or mentally ill, or "suffering a culturally-induced identity crisis"... they are attempting to alleviate the disruption and incongruity with the best option available to them (since we don't have real sex-changing magic on Earth). Their bodies and identities are sovereign to themselves and themselves alone.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
Also known as a double standard.
Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
So?
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Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
No, it's really not.
So?Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
Double standard equals bad. Either everybody gets to use it, or nobody does.
When people talk, they get to these points where they pause, and usually insert a 'you know', or 'like', or 'uhm' when they reach for a word? I usually drop an f-bomb. This offends people. I shrug. If they don't like it, they don't have to listen to me. If I'm on their property, they can throw me out. If not, they can walk away.
Double standard equals bad.So?Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
Why? If a person or group can take a word that carries negative connotations and shift it into a word of empowerment and group collectivity, why is that a bad thing?
I'm sorry that some people get to use some words that you can't.
Pretty sure several paizo employees have gone on the record saying they regret putting it in as a cursed item and it was mostly only done as a callback to previous editions. Could be wrong, but certain I remember reading that in the past from them.
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Why?Double standard equals bad.So?Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
Seriously? Are you really asking that?
Double Standard (n)-
a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another
It's hypocritical and it's unfair. If you rip into me for stealing something, then a week later you steal something and say 'well, it's okay when I do it', that's bull. Same thing.
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Double standard equals bad.So?Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.Why?
If a person or group can take a word that carries negative connotations and shift it into a word of empowerment and group collectivity, why is that a bad thing?
I'm sorry that some people get to use some words that you can't.
Seriously? Are you really asking that?
Double Standard (n)-
a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to anotherIt's hypocritical and it's unfair. If you rip into me for stealing something, then a week later you say 'well, it's okay when I do it', that's bull.
1) Quoting dictionaries is boring.
2) Stealing is hardly comparable to, as I stated above, a group reclaiming a hurtful word. Try another ad hominem.|
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I wished I was a girl when I was young.
I got over it.
Limits of modern medicine would include such things as counseling, physcraictric care, and overall getting help for those are suffering. Putting them to the knife, whether or not it is wanted, is not something that I find necessary.
It just doesn't seem like a solution to me, to have to go through everything for something that is somewhat like it would be, but not quite, if one was born differently. To continually go through the steps and maintenance one has to endure to continue to be as such, it just seems...
Well, it is worth it for some. I just find it... unsettling.
This is the last I will post about this.
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Double standard equals bad. Either everybody gets to use it, or nobody does.
When people talk, they get to these points where they pause, and usually insert a 'you know', or 'like', or 'uhm' when they reach for a word? I usually drop an f-bomb. This offends people. I shrug. If they don't like it, they don't have to listen to me. If I'm on their property, they can throw me out. If not, they can walk away.
There is a world of difference between dropping one of Carlin's 7 Words and dropping an ethnic/social slur.
Zhayne, you just copped to being a furry in another thread right here on these boards. Surely you've gotten incredibly horrible comments on other boards and other places for admitting it. Why can't you extend some empathy to trans* and other folk?
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I wished I was a girl when I was young.
I got over it.
Limits of modern medicine would include such things as counseling, physcraictric care, and overall getting help for those are suffering. Putting them to the knife, whether or not it is wanted, is not something that I find necessary.
It just doesn't seem like a solution to me, to have to go through everything for something that is somewhat like it would be, but not quite, if one was born differently. To continually go through the steps and maintenance one has to endure to continue to be as such, it just seems...
Well, it is worth it for some. I just find it... unsettling.
This is the last I will post about this.
There is a UNSPEAKABLY HUGE difference between wishing for something and knowing you are a way and your body disagrees.
I think that the idea that there's "too much political correctness around these days" is a lie propagated by people who think that they're too cool and edgy to be considerate of others.
Not particularly.
If I worried that everything I said was going to offend someone I'd never open my mouth because all these wannabe social activists who hang out on Tumblr and masturbate to whatever half-thought out idea they've come up with this week about how everything ever created is offensive.
Frozen is offensive because there's not enough black people.
Game of Thrones is offensive because Cersei is a b~%%$ and that's a blow to feminism everywhere.
Lion King is offensive because it portrays baboons in a stereotypical way and all kinds of other b@$!**@%.
Frozen is offensive because there's not enough black people.Game of Thrones is offensive because Cersei is a b*~+% and that's a blow to feminism everywhere.
Lion King is offensive because it portrays baboons in a stereotypical way and all kinds of other b&%+~+*!.
Pathfinder is offensive because I have a lousy sense of direction and can't read maps.
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I think that the idea that there's "too much political correctness around these days" is a lie propagated by people who think that they're too cool and edgy to be considerate of others.Not particularly.
If I worried that everything I said was going to offend someone I'd never open my mouth because all these wannabe social activists who hang out on Tumblr and masturbate to whatever half-thought out idea they've come up with this week about how everything ever created is offensive.
Frozen is offensive because there's not enough black people.
Game of Thrones is offensive because Cersei is a b%+%% and that's a blow to feminism everywhere.
Lion King is offensive because it portrays baboons in a stereotypical way and all kinds of other b@~!!+~@.
You're right.
Extremes are always easier to set up and knock down, aren't they?
But, you know, there's this thing called nuance, and most of us settle down in there somewhere.
I'm not offended by every little thing, but I'm also not afraid to tell people when they say something I think is wrong.
By the same token, I'm really regretful when I accidentally say offensive things, and I make an effort to be more careful in the future. But, I don't want to be edgy and cool, so apologizing to people really doesn't bother me.
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I wished I was a girl when I was young.
I got over it.
Limits of modern medicine would include such things as counseling, physcraictric care, and overall getting help for those are suffering. Putting them to the knife, whether or not it is wanted, is not something that I find necessary.
It just doesn't seem like a solution to me, to have to go through everything for something that is somewhat like it would be, but not quite, if one was born differently. To continually go through the steps and maintenance one has to endure to continue to be as such, it just seems...
Well, it is worth it for some. I just find it... unsettling.
This is the last I will post about this.
I don't know the depths of your gender incongruity as a child, and whether it was just a childhood quirk or something you buried or something you "got over" or what. And I'm definitely not attempting to make light of it. But many many people who experience those feelings--that incongruity/sense of self on the most fundamental level--don't get over it. Counseling/psychiatric assistance often doesn't alleviate that core incongruity for them. Yes, modern medical procedures are less than perfect. But if the brain can't be changed, what else are they supposed to do? Not change their body?! Just stoically suffer in silence? Do you have any idea how high the clinical depression and suicide rate is for trans* people?
And whether you consider it unsettling or not, it's their bodies, their selves that have to live their lives... not you, not me. So maybe try to extend them a little empathy and compassion, just as one human to another?
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By Pharasma I hope this thread doesn't get wiped - I think this is a really important conversation.
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If a transgendered person wishes to seek gender confirmation surgery, they do so to alleviate the body/mind incongruity that is too disruptive to ignore. They aren't confused, or mentally ill, or "suffering a culturally-induced identity crisis"... they are attempting to alleviate the disruption and incongruity with the best option available to them (since we don't have real sex-changing magic on Earth). Their bodies and identities are sovereign to themselves and themselves alone.
This.
Every bit of this.
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I think that the idea that there's "too much political correctness around these days" is a lie propagated by people who think that they're too cool and edgy to be considerate of others.Not particularly.
If I worried that everything I said was going to offend someone I'd never open my mouth because all these wannabe social activists who hang out on Tumblr and masturbate to whatever half-thought out idea they've come up with this week about how everything ever created is offensive.
Frozen is offensive because there's not enough black people.
Game of Thrones is offensive because Cersei is a b@+%! and that's a blow to feminism everywhere.
Lion King is offensive because it portrays baboons in a stereotypical way and all kinds of other b~##%~!&.
It's not about worrying that everything you do might be offensive. That is PC taken too far. It's about changing your behavior (or not) when you know for a fact that it's offensive.
*headscratch*
I really don't get this. Mind you, I don't get people in general, especially trends that rely almost exclusively on something as ephemeral as terminology for a litmus test, but shouldn't that item be wish fulfillment for some people at least?
This isn't a bad thing. Its a very common if not ubiquitous element in fantasy role playing games and fantasy in general: the desire to be something you're not or do something you can't do, a mighty warrior, a suave spy, to turn the power of your brain into real, physical power through the arcane arts. I mean if people want to change their bodies badly enough to have a very expensive procedure done doesn't that mean there's a legitimate desire for this item to exist?
Is the offensive part that it exists or that its a cursed item? To me is the difference between druid shapeshifting and baleful polymorph. One you turn on, one gets turned on you. One persons life long goal is usually someone elses curse.
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It's not about worrying that everything you do might be offensive. That is PC taken too far. It's about changing your behavior (or not) when you know for a fact that it's offensive.I think that the idea that there's "too much political correctness around these days" is a lie propagated by people who think that they're too cool and edgy to be considerate of others.Not particularly.
If I worried that everything I said was going to offend someone I'd never open my mouth because all these wannabe social activists who hang out on Tumblr and masturbate to whatever half-thought out idea they've come up with this week about how everything ever created is offensive.
Frozen is offensive because there's not enough black people.
Game of Thrones is offensive because Cersei is a b@+%! and that's a blow to feminism everywhere.
Lion King is offensive because it portrays baboons in a stereotypical way and all kinds of other b~##%~!&.
That's a good philosophy to live by (to an extent), but it's not what this thread is about.
Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.
"Well this thing exists and it talks about something in a manner that might be obliquely offensive to some people if you squint hard enough."
Too far. Way too far.
Walking up and calling a black man the n-word or a homosexual a f** is offensive. Those words serve no purpose other than to be offensive.
But this thread is on par with someone getting offended at me calling my friend "Dude" and the guy sitting nearby, who I don't even know, telling me that word is offensive because if implies my friend self-identifies as a male, and have I asked him that or am I just assuming?
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Why?Double standard equals bad.So?Also known as a double standard.
And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.Seriously? Are you really asking that?
Double Standard (n)-
a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to anotherIt's hypocritical and it's unfair. If you rip into me for stealing something, then a week later you steal something and say 'well, it's okay when I do it', that's bull. Same thing.
Double standards are only bad if you conflate "equal" with "equitable." Equal means you treat everyone the same. Equitable means you give everyone the same level of consideration. Giving a proper amount of consideration to everyone doesn't necessarily mean that you treat them all the same. Black people aren't being hurtful and insensitive when using the n-word. Other groups are. (These are generalizations, of course, and there are white people who could use the word to good effect in, say, a scholarly piece*, or a stand-up comedy act, and there are black people who don't buy in to the idea that there's ever a good time to use the word.)
*See The Student As N****r, written by Jerry Farber, who I was lucky enough to study under in school.
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That's a good philosophy to live by (to an extent), but it's not what this thread is about.
Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.
"Well this thing exists and it talks about something in a manner that might be obliquely offensive to some people if you squint hard enough."
Too far. Way too far.
Walking up and calling a black man the n-word or a homosexual a f** is offensive. Those words serve no purpose other than to be offensive.
But this thread is on par with someone getting offended at me calling my friend "Dude" and the guy sitting nearby, who I don't even know, telling me that word is offensive because if implies my friend self-identifies as a male, and have I asked him that or am I just assuming?
The thread ASKED if it was offensive. General consensus seems to be that it isn't. What is wrong with that? Someone else making sure they aren't offending people in some way infringes on your life?
By the way, calling someone "a homosexual" is generally considered offensive these days. Bear in mind that if you don't have a lot of gay friends, no one expects you to know this ahead of time, and I'm not calling you out or anything, just an FYI.
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Ambrosia Slaad is saying things in an incredibly effective, informative, and in terms of a response to certain posts in this thread, possibly a much kinder way than my first response would have been.
But a few brief comments on my part to some things in this thread that have been said:
Having your brain's physical structure not correlate with the rest of your body is not fun. I know this on a personal level, though I can't claim to speak for every trans* person out there. It took me years to even come to the point of being able to recognize and admit that status.
It's a daily discordance, a nagging, gnawing dyphoria that is never easy, even if you try to ignore it, or bury it, or try to rationalize it as anything else. For some people the level of dysphoria brings despair, and as TanithT said, for far too many trans* persons, it ends in suicide if they can't for many varied reasons transition if that would be their choice. It's a very real thing, and how each person decides to handle it is their own decision, be it hormones, surgical transition, or none of the above.
But please have some sympathy for people and not treat it as a joke, or an affectation, or a mental illness, or something that people "get over", or a phase, or a way to get attention, etc.
Also, for the record, I'm not offended by the Girdle of Opposite Gender. Just on account of it transforming your body without your consent or prior awareness that's enough there to earn it cursed item status. Paizo's designers have commented on its status wrt trans* individuals, its status as a cursed item due to legacy game lore, and Paizo of all people out there have been amazingly tactful, sensitive, and embracing of trans* people as customers, players, and with giving them in-game representation. I cannot thank them enough. :)
I just don't like the Girdle. Stay away from my character, DM. Stay over there across the room and don't change his gender.
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Also, there's a big difference IMO between trying to genuinely be sensitive to things that hurt and offend people, and trying to be offended on behalf of other people in a sort of egotistical condescending tumblr pissing contest.
Be cool to everyone, try to be sensitive to others.
That's a good philosophy to live by (to an extent), but it's not what this thread is about.
Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.
"Well this thing exists and it talks about something in a manner that might be obliquely offensive to some people if you squint hard enough."
Too far. Way too far.
Walking up and calling a black man the n-word or a homosexual a f** is offensive. Those words serve no purpose other than to be offensive.
But this thread is on par with someone getting offended at me calling my friend "Dude" and the guy sitting nearby, who I don't even know, telling me that word is offensive because if implies my friend self-identifies as a male, and have I asked him that or am I just assuming?
The thread ASKED if it was offensive. General consensus seems to be that it isn't. What is wrong with that? Someone else making sure they aren't offending people in some way infringes on your life?
By the way, calling someone "a homosexual" is generally considered offensive these days. Bear in mind that if you don't have a lot of gay friends, no one expects you to know this ahead of time, and I'm not calling you out or anything, just an FYI.
Wait, seriously?
I thought homosexual and heterosexual were like universally agreed on to be the most neutral terms?
I'm probably going to regret asking, but why, when, and what's the new "accepted" term?
Also, why do people keep adding a * after the prefix trans?
Sure, one gaming group might take the lazy way out and play it purely for sophomoric laughs, maybe even with misogynistic overtones, and that would probably succeed in being offensive to everyone in earshot.
I think that would describe many if not most games.
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Also, why do people keep adding a * after the prefix trans?
It's a spectrum with different people choosing to transition and others not, and it has various shades of self-identity therein. The * is just an attempt to be more inclusive I think, but I don't think anyone is going to object or be offended if you don't use that.
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Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.Except, with all of the trans* identifying people on this thread, not one of us has said that we think the existence of such an item in the game is offensive.
EXACTLY my point.
Political Correctness being pushed too far is almost the exclusive domain of people who are not identified as the thing in question.
Becoming offended FOR someone else, basically.
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Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.Except, with all of the trans* identifying people on this thread, not one of us has said that we think the existence of such an item in the game is offensive.
EXACTLY my point.
Political Correctness being pushed too far is almost the exclusive domain of people who are not identified as the thing in question.
Becoming offended FOR someone else, basically.
Wait...are you offended...by political correctness?
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Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.Except, with all of the trans* identifying people on this thread, not one of us has said that we think the existence of such an item in the game is offensive.EXACTLY my point.
Political Correctness being pushed too far is almost the exclusive domain of people who are not identified as the thing in question.
Becoming offended FOR someone else, basically.
Or maybe, it doesn't hurt to proceed cautiously when we are in an area that can be contentious, especially when disadvantaged participants have good faith participated in past similar dialogues only to be belittled and disparaged. It really doesn't take that much additional effort on my part to try to listen to such concerns openly and honestly with my best attempt at a nonprejudicial mindset. There are some who believe it's easier to ask forgiveness after giving offense, but I'd rather avoid giving offense in the first place. While this does place the burden on me to attempt to chose my words accurately, precisely, and sensitively, I don't really think of those as drawbacks.
I still screw up and step on peoples' feelings, but I'd like to try and be the change I'd want to see in the world.
Edit: Damn it, we're all humans (well, you all are anyway), and a little respect and empathy goes a long way toward achieving open communication.
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My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.
I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.