Girdle of Opposite Gender -- Offensive?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

I'm pretty sure it would be a curse for most people.

Sometimes the bug IS the feature, but only in the right circumstances. The helm of opposite alignment prisoner reformation program, the cursed sword is great if you need to have a fight in a secure area, there's a thousand uses for a bag of devouring etc.

Contributor

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

Paizo staff has touched on this before. For most people it would be a curse to have that transformation, while for transgendered persons it could be a blessing. As such it seems likely that it'll go from being "cursed" to just a magic item at some point in the future. Probably for the best.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

I'm pretty sure it would be a curse for most people.

Sometimes the bug IS the feature, but only in the right circumstances. The helm of opposite alignment prisoner reformation program, the cursed sword is great if you need to have a fight in a secure area, there's a thousand uses for a bag of devouring etc.

Like I said, it shouldn't be a cursed item. Just like any belt it should be able to be worn or removed, it shouldn't be treated as a "gotcha".


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

The curse part has absolutely nothing specifically to do with the gender part. It's the "SURPRISE!" and "no consent" part that is problematic. Not to make light of rape, but it's kind of like this.

This said, once you positively identified the item and removed it, and thereafter the only people who would be putting it on are the ones who want the effect, it really loses steam as a cursed item. You could make a huge frickin' pile of gold renting it out or selling it in a large enough city, rendering it a pretty sweet net asset after the intial "surprise".

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TanithT wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

The curse part has absolutely nothing specifically to do with the gender part. It's the "SURPRISE!" and "no consent" part that is problematic. Not to make light of rape, but it's kind of like this.

This said, once you positively identified the item and removed it, and thereafter the only people who would be putting it on are the ones who want the effect, it really loses steam as a cursed item. You could make a huge frickin' pile of gold renting it out or selling it in a large enough city, rendering it a pretty sweet net asset after the intial "surprise".

That's kind of what I was trying to say, but you got it across better than I did.


Faelyn wrote:
Werebat wrote:
I was wondering if the Girdle of Opposite Gender was offensive to transgender players, as it is officially listed as a "cursed" item. Think about the implications. Couldn't Paizo be considered to be insensitive to the TG community in its official consideration of this item as "cursed"?

Considering this cursed item has been around RPGs for a very long time (At least since 2E AD&D, probably even before then) I wouldn't lay the blame on Paizo first of all.

Secondly, I think considering it to be offensive is a little excessive... I'm not LBGT, and have nothing but respect for the LBGT Community, but insensitive? I fail to see how, but that's just my personal opinion on the matter...

Yeah, this item has been around since D&D 1e. I agree with the idea that the mechanics of it make it cursed. Also, really I think for most of us, having your gender altered in an instant without your consent, would suck enough to be considered a curse. I am not even sure TG people should be the offended ones. Women out there, how does it feel to know that I would consider it to be a curse to suddenly be changed into one of you? For what it is worth, I understand if you think being a man would suck, and I'm cool with that.


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Reitif wrote:
I am not even sure TG people should be the offended ones. Women out there, how does it feel to know that I would consider it to be a curse to suddenly be changed into one of you? For what it is worth, I understand if you think being a man would suck, and I'm cool with that.

I think that being 'not you', for your external body not to match your internal self-identity or brain wiring, is not much fun. It doesn't actually matter what the mismatch is, only that it is a mismatch.

Would you be weirded out if you were polymorphed into another person who wasn't you? Even if nothing else was changed - let's say your race and gender even stayed the same - it would probably be pretty upsetting to most people for their outside not to match their internal knowledge of who they are inside.

Granted, most powergamers would just cheer as long as something about their stats got improved. I don't think that is a great representation of how a real person would react if their actual self-identity were shaken to the core and their body drastically altered to be someone or something that was not them.

I'm sure misogyny or misandry would complicate the situation, but it isn't actually a prerequisite for a nonconsensual body transformation to be upsetting.


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Actually I'm seeing some huge plot potential in scenarios involving characters who don't like X (for whatever reason) being transformed into X and having to walk a mile in those moccasins....and in those feet, and in that body. Doesn't really matter if it's gender or race or something else. There is a whole lot of potential for good storytelling right there.

Also a lot of potential for less mature folks to be, well, less mature. Some of the possible responses from players who don't actually give a hoot about plot would range from:

"Sweet, does that give me any stat bonuses?"

"Ewww, I don't want to be an icky (girl/boy), this game sucks."

"Hey, this is good loot. Even after paying the wizard to take it off, we can sell it for at least twice that. More if there's a large enough brothel in town."

Whether you can be successful with mature and emotionally complex themes for a plot arc depends entirely on your players.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zhayne wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:


And the general courtesy is, when a word or meme that has been traditionally used as a slur or form of social control against a minority is re-appropriated by that minority, they alone get to use it and define it... not those from outside, especially by someone who still wields institutionalized privilege.
Also known as a double standard.

Perhaps you should listen to what George Carlin had to say on the subject before making a snap judgement. In short, context matters. Note: Colorful language is being used... it's Carlin after all. It's how words are being used, and more importantly, who's using them that matters.


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Looks like there's a lot of people in this thread who started their post with "I'm not trans, but..." (and hey, lots of people giving great answers too). So I suppose I'll begin my answer with the opposite intro.

Hi! I'm trans.

I can't speak for all trans people. We're not a hive-mind, obviously, so this is just me and my opinion: Personally, I don't find this cursed item to be offensive. Most of the people in the world aren't trans, are likely comfortable with their current physical sex, and probably wouldn't want the effects of such an item apply to them. It's extremely uncomfortable to be in a body with a physical sex that you consider to be the wrong one after all, and since this item causes that for most people, sure, it can be considered almost-always a negative thing. It's understandable to call it cursed so long as its description makes no blanket statements saying that its effects are a bad thing for everyone, and in that vein it would be ridiculous to need to call it a "cursed for most people, but there are exceptions" item.

Basically, Paizo's pretty clearly not trying to offend anyone by calling this one a cursed item, and I don't run games to give players lessons on gender politics anyways, so why get up in arms about it?

Where I would draw the line is if someone was actually trying to be offensive, or making offensive statements and claiming to be not being offensive. Paizo's not doing that though.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

I wouldn't wish dysphoria on the worst person in the world. I would absolutely consider something that could so easily be used to inflict dysphoria on someone to be cursed.

The cases where the item is a solution and not a problem are exceptions, I'd imagine.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

As others have said its not the male to female/female to male that makes this a cursed item its the fact you don't know that it will change you and for most people it takes them from a sex their comfortable with to one their not that makes it cursed.

There's about 400 odd people where I work from a range of backgrounds for about 99% of them I imagine having this happen would be a curse and I'd agree with them. Not because being male/female is bad in and of itself (although being a woman even today means you're worse off in a working environment than a man in terms of pay/treatment) but because I know how horrible its going to be for them after the change stuck in a body that doesn't match their own mental identification of themselves.

To liken it to another "cursed" item the helm of opposite alignment. That states the changed person is happy with their new alignment and resists being changed back this DOESN'T.

Again you can take the stupid belt off, it just doesn't affect you a second time and you need other spells to go back to your original gender.


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Those I know in the gay community, both "influential" and rank and file LGBT folks, prefer "gay" to "homosexual." Homosexual is ok as an adjective, just not as a noun. Much like the difference between black as in "black people" and saying like "mostly blacks go to that club."

Of course, that could be regional, or even just those I'm exposed to who have an opinion.

By the way, Rynjin, you talk about people being offended "for" other people. I think one of the really dumb ideas that our society has is that you're not allowed to be offended unless you're a member of the group in question. I think every bigot (to be clear, I'm not including you in this category) weakens and cheapens the value of life and society as a whole.


It wouldn't be considered a cursed item to a transgender player would it? It would be a dream come true. Full and complete, including reproductive system, transformation into the opposite gender. If modern medicine had access to one of these girdles, someone could make a lot of money from those wanting to change their gender.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Didn't we have this thread a short time ago? Is this going to be a new alignment/monks/Paladin thing?

Liberty's Edge

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It's a Girdle of Opposite Sex anyway. A Girdle of Opposite Gender would, arguably, be a much nastier thing to deal with, in terms of the dysphoria it could potentially cause.


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MyTThor wrote:
By the way, Rynjin, you talk about people being offended "for" other people. I think one of the really dumb ideas that our society has is that you're not allowed to be offended unless you're a member of the group in question. I think every bigot (to be clear, I'm not including you in this category) weakens and cheapens the value of life and society as a whole.

Normally I consider these topics an A-B conversation, and I C my way out of them. Little good usually comes from them.

With that said, though, I do see one point of consideration that can possibly do some good. Without going into what I personally do or do not identify as or with, I want to note a consideration to what you've said here. When people get offended -for- other people, they (often unintentionally, to be certain) are making the mistake of applying a hivemind to the people they are becoming offended for. You'll note that even in this thread, the phrase "We're not a hivemind" comes up more than once.

Now, in the cases of obvious and egregious offense (like common slurs, for instance), that's perfectly reasonable. By all means, speak up! But once you move past group labels and into specific questions, you are no longer necessarily speaking for anyone. One of the great dangers in the modern world's attempts at social realignment is that certain powerful groups (again, often unintentionally) end up speaking for those who need the agency to speak for themselves. They mean well...but don't necessarily -do- well. Ironically, it is these very examples that many fall back on as 'PC run amok' and 'we have to cater to (group)', when it isn't usually (group) saying them in the first place.


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its a cursed item because when you made up your little fantasy character in your mind you chose its gender/sex, and was totally happy and content with it, since you chose it for your little person...

Now along comes a silly girdle that..you thought "hey I hope this item is something awesome like strength or whatnot..but why does it have a frilly border on it and these handcuffs?"

And now it has made you erase your above mentioned former decision on your characters gender/sex and be forced to RP the new one, or at least be subject to the GMs worlds reactions to your new apparatus.

That's why its a cursed item.


Pan wrote:
Its cursed because it changes you against your will. Well I guess you could identify it and use it willingly but no need to digress. I agree with Zhayne about the item being phenomally stupid.

In one campaign we sold one to a Temple of Calistria. They were very happy to have a second one for certain members of their Church.


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Vod Canockers wrote:
Pan wrote:
Its cursed because it changes you against your will. Well I guess you could identify it and use it willingly but no need to digress. I agree with Zhayne about the item being phenomally stupid.
In one campaign we sold one to a Temple of Calistria. They were very happy to have a second one for certain members of their Church.

Revenge is a dish served best with a garter?


Raith Shadar wrote:
If modern medicine had access to one of these girdles, someone could make a lot of money from those wanting to change their gender.

I don't identify as completely transgender, maybe more TG-curious (there must be a reason I always create female characters!). I'd pay a s$%&load of money for one of those belts, as long as I could alter my appearance as well. Becoming a woman is one thing, especially with the option to reverse the change if it didn't suit me, but becoming a woman but keeping my own appearance is quite another!

I really don't want to get into the offensive/PC/bigotry argument, but when classifying cursed items, surely you should consider the percentage of potential users who would find the effect negative as opposed to positive. After all, a psychopath would probably love a Sword of Beserking, and an aquatic creature would find a Net of Snaring incredibly useful. That doesn't mean to say, however, that the greater number of potential users wouldn't consider the item to be cursed.

Sovereign Court

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Rynjin wrote:
MyTThor wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

That's a good philosophy to live by (to an extent), but it's not what this thread is about.

Threads like this are exactly what people are talking about when they say PC-ness has gone too far.

"Well this thing exists and it talks about something in a manner that might be obliquely offensive to some people if you squint hard enough."

Too far. Way too far.

Walking up and calling a black man the n-word or a homosexual a f** is offensive. Those words serve no purpose other than to be offensive.

But this thread is on par with someone getting offended at me calling my friend "Dude" and the guy sitting nearby, who I don't even know, telling me that word is offensive because if implies my friend self-identifies as a male, and have I asked him that or am I just assuming?

The thread ASKED if it was offensive. General consensus seems to be that it isn't. What is wrong with that? Someone else making sure they aren't offending people in some way infringes on your life?

By the way, calling someone "a homosexual" is generally considered offensive these days. Bear in mind that if you don't have a lot of gay friends, no one expects you to know this ahead of time, and I'm not calling you out or anything, just an FYI.

Wait, seriously?

I thought homosexual and heterosexual were like universally agreed on to be the most neutral terms?

I'm probably going to regret asking, but why, when, and what's the new "accepted" term?

Also, why do people keep adding a * after the prefix trans?

Writing as a gay person living in the Netherlands;

"Homosexual", "Homo" and "Gay" are perfectly acceptable, also "Lesbian". Likewise "Hetero" and "Heterosexual". These are pretty neutral terms to use, safe with strangers.

"Lesbo" and "Nicht" (Dutch for "F@#") are more sensitive; among friends they may be acceptable but not so much among strangers.

The big thing though is how you say it. If you're just saying it to call something what it is - "this club caters to a gay crowd" - it's fine. However, "that's so gay" can be offensive if someone is describing something they think is weak/unmanly etc.

However, gay people say that as well. And when my friends do it, I'm not offended. Because I know they don't mean to offend me, it's just an expression (unfortunate though it may be) but without the intent to be hurtful.

The trick is that I know they don't mean it in a hurtful way. That's why it's okay in the company of people you know well enough, but not among strangers or casual acquaintances.

A special case is people you know, that don't know you're gay. If they're making jokes about gay people, it's confusing. I mean, I joke about my own sexual orientation as well (as well as about straight people). But since they don't know I'm gay, I'm not sure if there's malice behind their jokes, and it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like to be the guy that makes things awkward by coming out right then and questioning their sense of humour at the same time, but the situation puts be in a bit of a bind. On the other hand, if they knew you were gay maybe they'd be a bit more tasteful, to your face at least. But you're just not sure how they'd react. This is not a pleasant situation to be in.

I hope this was informative.

Sovereign Court

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

My issue is that the Girdle of Opposite Gender is referred to as a "cursed" item. Transformation from one gender to the other is referred to as a curse, and for some people that's not a bug it's a feature.

I think the Girdle of Opposite Gender should just be a magic item. One that's relatively easy to make (Alter Self as a prerequisite). No mentions of curses.

It's a cursed item for a couple of reasons.

1) Majority names: for the vast majority of people, suddenly changing sex would be a curse. In an RPG, this number will probably be even higher, because most players will set out to create a PC that's happy with his/her sex. I suspect that there are no accidental tran* PCs; if someone rolled one up, that was the player's intention.

2) It inflicts a powerful effect without a saving throw upon an unwilling character. This is almost never seen outside of cursed items. In PF terms, "cursed item" actually means "so powerful you don't get a saving throw". There are quite a few cursed items that are actually quite useful because of this: the Amulet of inescapable location is a nice tracking bug, the Helm of opposite alignment is extremely useful if ethically questionable, the Robe of powerlessness makes controlling prisoners super-easy, Dust of Sneezing and Choking can stun everyone within 20ft for 5d4 rounds - that's basically a PF nuclear weapon. Necklace of strangulation combined with a Beguiling Gift spell, Sleight of Hand or just presenting it as a gift makes for a powerful assassination weapon. Spreading around Crystal hypnosis balls can be a way to spread the influence of your lich overlord. And just reverse-pickpocket a Scarab of Death into someone's purse to kill him.

3) It can be devastating to a player's fun. People tend to identify with their PC; put work in it, have a mental image they cherish. Brutally changing that with a cursed item can be a big shock to the player. Not all players will react like this, but some players will feel deeply violated. This item should be handled with care.


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Consider this: transgendered folks are born into bodies they don't identify with. Many consider this a "curse" and undergo gender-reassignment surgery.

When someone who isn't trans puts on a girdle of opposite gender they unknowingly become afflicted with the same problem which all transgendered people face: their physical body is in conflict with who they are internally, mentally, etc.

Hence, the girdle is a "cursed" item.


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Raith Shadar wrote:

It wouldn't be considered a cursed item to a transgender player would it? It would be a dream come true. Full and complete, including reproductive system, transformation into the opposite gender. If modern medicine had access to one of these girdles, someone could make a lot of money from those wanting to change their gender.

A transgendered player would certainly understand why non-trans people would consider it "cursed". Besides, the term "cursed" doesn't refer to the affect, so much as method by which that affect is applied to the character (i.e. against their will, or rather, in spite of their will). I mean, a trans character would probably pay for such an affect, but the thing is: the item doesn't give you a choice. So, if you don't know what it does, and unknowingly put it on, you have been robbed of your agency. Thus, the item is "cursed".

Then again... Sean already explained all of this on the 1st-page of this thread.


I wont say anything about its offensiveness as im not trans. But it should realhave been named "girdle of opposite sex".

I do not include the belt in my worlds, and i suspect some of the trans people ive played with might not like it, so i simply prefer to just skip it all together. Not a big loss.


Makarion wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Pan wrote:
Its cursed because it changes you against your will. Well I guess you could identify it and use it willingly but no need to digress. I agree with Zhayne about the item being phenomally stupid.
In one campaign we sold one to a Temple of Calistria. They were very happy to have a second one for certain members of their Church.
Revenge is a dish served best with a garter?

No, they had one for that. They wanted a second so the Johns that wanted to could spend time as Janes before going back to Johns.


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dust of sneezing and choking is a cursed item. Often players don't see it that way. They find out what it is and use it offensively. Cursed doesn't always mean it isn't useful.

The main reason you consider it cursed is because it appears as something else, so you don't know what it does. You think you're getting a belt of giant strength and instead you end up a member of the opposite gender. So you are forced into something not by choice, but by magical deception.

Imagine a transgender person who went through a quest to turn themselves into a member of the sex they want to be, then put on this belt thinking it's to get more strength and bam, they're back to being the sex they don't want to be. That would make a transgender person pissed off too.


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All I've gathered about this thread since my post is that I think TanithT is winning it.


Isn't that a Seth Meyers SNL bit? "I mean, really?!"

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Removed a bunch of posts. Please be civil and remember the messageboard rules.


{makes mental note to buy Liz a drink or two as down-payment on an apology at some future Con}


I saw a fun group, I was playing with, implode due to the GM mishandling of this item. So for me it will always be cursed.

This item is also cursed simply because it doesn't ask for consent. I'm sure an uncursed version could be made that could be used by people that wants a sex change.


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are we really arguing that any cursed item with an effect that SOMEONE might like even if most people wouldn't is offensive? so a cursed item that causes your clothing to burst into flames spontaneously is offensive because some people are masochistic pyromaniacal exhibitionists? this is ludicrous... especially considering the mechanical reasons it's "cursed".


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the girdle of opposite gender, the helm of opposite alignment, the boots of random movement, the underwear of bottom burps, the eyeglasses of facial twitches,the codex of unfortunate pickup lines...

sounds like a good time at the ole CN mixer!


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Ashtathlon wrote:
Now along comes a silly girdle that..you thought "hey I hope this item is something awesome like strength or whatnot..but why does it have a frilly border on it and these handcuffs?"

This is actually a pretty good example of why it can be a good thing to take the time to think about your own viewpoints and perspectives and maybe ask other folks how they feel about it and what their experience actually is.

What you said there seems to conflate being transgender with being kinky, and that's a fairly major misread of the core issue. It is the kind of misread that can feel hurtful or trivializing to people who have the medical issue that results from interruption in a developmental hormonal cascade in fetu so that their neural architecture is firmly gendered one way while some or all of their physical body develops as the other gender. Eg, people who are transgender.

Transgender = Very serious life affecting medical condition that can cause crushing despair, dysphoria, self-loathing and which results in a an extremely high suicide rate for people who don't have the means or ability to transition.

Cross dressing and bondage = Not a medical condition, just for fun. A kinky Saturday night date, or something you could decide to do at a Halloween party for laughs. Or something you could decide you don't want to do, and don't ever have to do.

Confusing or conflating these two things is likely to be perceived by trans* people as offensive, hurtful, rude or trivializing. They are not the same. Neither of them is a bad thing, and a trans* person has the same right to participate in consensual adult activities as anyone else. Handcuffs don't have anything to do with gender issues, though, and it's not a very nice thing to assume that they do, since it reduces the trans* experience to a "just kinky" one.

Thank you for taking the time to think about these issues and listen to other people speak about how they experience them.


Sadurian wrote:
Raith Shadar wrote:
If modern medicine had access to one of these girdles, someone could make a lot of money from those wanting to change their gender.

I don't identify as completely transgender, maybe more TG-curious (there must be a reason I always create female characters!). I'd pay a s@!&load of money for one of those belts, as long as I could alter my appearance as well. Becoming a woman is one thing, especially with the option to reverse the change if it didn't suit me, but becoming a woman but keeping my own appearance is quite another!

As someone who has great interest in the "sensates" group from the d&d planescape setting, a belt of continuous "alter self" would definitly be interesting. The whole "walking a mile in another's shoes" would be a lot more realisable with somewhat less artificiality. Still, that might appear as offensive to a number of people (AKA "what, do you see our existence as some sort of amusement park!?" type of thing)

I've actually been looking into this stuff recently, to try to understand it better. I'd probably have to talk with someone who has (or has had) gender dysphoria to better understand (though I dont know any personally). I have some experience dealing with depression (in myself & others) but the psychological aspects of gender dysphoria are especially tortuous for me to understand.

But yeah, for the belt, I'll stick with SKR's earlier explanation.

Did have a fellow player willingly take one on before though...


I was describing a Girdle of opposite gender..not a girdle of transgender, in a fantasy game..with silly stuff, but thanks are not nessicary. :)

(I really don't take 93% of this stuff even remotely seriously, this is suppose to be fun after all. )

Digital Products Assistant

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Removed a couple more posts. Knock it off.

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